Clip: Can McConnell, other long-term Republicans defy Trump's isolationism during his 2nd term?

Jeffrey Goldberg: Mitch McConnell, free man, liberated, right? Are we going to start seeing Senator McConnell, who obviously we know from the record, doesn't like Donald Trump, Trump goads him whenever he possibly can, are we going to see Mitch McConnell sort of lead a lead an insurgent faction now that he's not going to be the Senate leader?

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: I mean, there might be a story of what he does behind closed doors compared to what you see publicly. I thought it was interesting that he was pretty quick to come out with a comment when Gaetz dropped out saying -- kind of complimenting him, saying this was an excellent decision. But you're right, I mean, now that he isn't in the role that we saw the first time Trump was in power in the White House, is now doesn't need to worry about sort of commanding each of the factions of the Senate. We know that he is somebody that is critical of the president-elect, and you are now kind of have the leeway to be more outspoken with that criticism.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Does that ring true with what we know of Mitch McConnell's personality, that all of a sudden he's going to become -- you're shaking your head.

Andrew Desiderio: No, that doesn't align with his personality. However, he has teased in a way that he's going to be more outspoken than he has been over the 18 years that he's been the Senate Republican leader. He told me earlier this year when I interviewed him right after the NATO summit, actually a foreign policy focus interview, that he wants to focus on rooting out what he sees as the dangerous isolationist drift in his party. He referred to the phrase America first and he said that's a phrase you heard in the 20s and 30s. I mean, that's a remarkable statement to make given that the standard bearer of his party, Donald Trump, won his presidential campaign and used that phrase, America First, all throughout his political life.

So, the question is, what will Mitch McConnell do, and will other senators, like Susan Collins, for example, who is very close to Mitch McConnell, and maybe some other national security hawks, like John Cornyn and Roger Wicker, for example, as well, will they move in lockstep with McConnell? Will he be a bellwether?

Laura Barron-Lopez: And that's just baseline, Jeff. Because then you add on the sexual assault allegations, and if it continues to be in the headlines, then that could be a problem for him. I mean, I was talking to a source close to Trump's transition today, who was saying that there is somewhat of a sense that they are having -- they're running into big challenges with Hegseth, and they're starting to get nervous about his possibility with getting confirmed.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Ashley, a larger question about the issue of hawks and isolationism, this cabinet doesn't have a coherence to it, especially on the national security front, Marco Rubio, traditional, almost John McCain-style interventionist hawk. And here's an opportunity for you to elegantly weave in the name Tulsi Gabbard into your answer. But you have a wide range of MAGA, America First, traditional hawks, et cetera. How does it cohere, or does it not have to cohere, because the policy of this administration is whatever Donald Trump says the policy is on any given day?

Ashley Parker: Right, well, that's certainly true. I mean, I would also add the incoming vice president, J.D. Vance, is much more isolationist, who is very much opposed to giving more aid to Ukraine, much like Donald Trump is.

I mean, the coherence, which has nothing to do with a foreign policy worldview, is, first and foremost, loyalty and, you know, unwavering fealty to Donald Trump himself, and then, secondly, a willingness to go in, upend things, destroy things, root out things, specifically what they believe, correctly or incorrectly, is the, you know, quote/unquote, deep state. But I think, at least with these nominees the coherence you will see is them doing Donald Trump's bidding. So, when we're thinking of a world view, the important world view is Donald Trump's.

Jeffrey Goldberg: So, the through line of everything here is loyalty. You know, we were talking before about someone who has not gotten a lot of attention. I just want to mention this because it's so interesting in this context, Mark Whitaker, former attorney general. I think he was attorney general for about ten minutes.

Andrew Desiderio: Acting attorney general.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Former acting attorney general, never confirmed, nominated to be the U.S. ambassador to NATO, has no defense or foreign policy experience or European geopolitics experience. How do we explain that nomination? Is there another explanation apart from, I will do whatever you tell me to do, Mr. President?

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: He was an attack dog on T.V. I mean, he was loyal to the president, but also he was willing to go out and criticize Bob Miller the first time around when Trump was in the White House.

Laura Barron-Lopez: And he's criticized NATO.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: And he's criticized -- you know, correct. And for the president too, he wants --

Jeffrey Goldberg: But not from a position of being an expert on U.S. defense?

Laura Barron-Lopez: Not from a position necessarily, but he is aligned with Donald Trump on NATO and on the way Trump views American allies.

Jeffrey Goldberg: So, if you were in NATO, you would see this appointment as an ominous sign?

Laura Barron-Lopez: Yes.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: It is somebody who is going to go and echo what the president-elect has said on the campaign.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: That other NATO members need to pay their dues, and if they don't, then he will hold it over their head.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Let's come back to Gabbard for a minute. This is one of the oddest of all of the appointments. Not simply because her politics are so discordant from, let's say, the Marco Rubio strain of the party, but because she, at least rhetorically, has aligned herself at various points with not only Vladimir Putin, but Bashar al-Assad, the dictator of Syria. Does this one get through? Anyone should answer.

Andrew Desiderio: I think it's an open question at this point. I mean, the Senate Intelligence Committee, like the Armed Services Committee, is stacked with members on both sides of the aisle who believe in institutions, who believe in the national security tools that are used on a daily basis, things like Section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which Donald Trump has been railing against. He said, they spied on me and my campaign, which, of course, was not true. She has called for repealing the Patriot Act. She has said that Edward Snowden should be pardoned, that all charges should be dropped against him. There is a unanimous view on Capitol Hill that Edward Snowden did enormous damage to U.S. national security.

So, you're talking about a nominee here who's coming in with open hostility to the intelligence apparatus that she seeks to lead, even when you take a -- you don't consider the fact that her foreign policy views are so far out of the mainstream, not just of the Republican Party, but of our political discourse.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Ashley, one of the interesting sub stories of this is that the nominee to run the CIA, which nominally reports to the DNI, to the director of National Intelligence, John Ratcliffe, was the DNI in the first Trump administration, was considered a true MAGA believer, et cetera, et cetera, but now, compared to Tulsi Gabbard, he looks like an establishment statesman.

Ashley Parker: Right. And it's not just compared to Tulsi Gabbard. It's also worth noting, you know, when you talk about him, people can easily point to, look, he was the director of DNI. Of course, he's qualified to lead the CIA. But what's interesting was Trump put him up in the first term twice to be the director of the DNI. The first time, he had to withdraw, not just because Democrats didn't want him to get through, but because Republicans were incredibly lukewarm on him.

So, he gets through a second time after a second effort, and the concern was he didn't really have any particular experience in this area, that he had overstated what he had done as a prosecutor in Texas, that even as a congressman, he'd shown no interest in this realm.

But, again, you know, they can make an argument that potentially he did serve as DNI director. He did learn on the job. The criticism, of course, is that he politicized the office. But, again, that's not necessarily what the senators want, but that is what Donald Trump wanted and wants. Politicizing the department, all these departments is precisely the point.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. There's so many other people to get to. We have to -- I have to ask the question, does RFK Jr. get through?

Laura Barron-Lopez: I think so. I think because if there is any of these picks that we're talking about that is potentially not going to get through, I think it's either going to be Hegseth or Gabbard. But RFK Jr., there appears to be no indication so far that senators are that opposed to him despite his past rhetoric.

Now, he's someone who, on the more standard side, has said that he wants to go after ultra-processed foods. It's something that I think a lot of people would get behind, but he is an anti-vaxxer. And I've talked to public health experts, pediatricians and vaccinologists who are gravely concerned that just his talk of being anti-vaccines could lead to more children not getting vaccines because their parents decide not to, and could ultimately lead to deaths of children.

Jeffrey Goldberg: No, it leads to more measles. Yes. And, Zolan, have you noticed this, and maybe tell me if I'm wrong, but he's being normalized at a fairly fast rate of speed. You know, it's the, yes, he's anti-vaccine, but he also hates high fructose corn syrup.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: Right.

Jeffrey Goldberg: I mean, what's happening here?

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: Yes. It was interesting. You had the governor of Colorado as well come out, Democratic governor come out and initially kind of praised this decision, you know, pointing to RFK. Like he was saying, well, look, at least we're going to have somebody that can challenge big pharma.

I was talking to some Democrats about that and I actually think that speaks to like a broader political -- sort of like the political backlash Democrats are facing. They are worried right now that they are -- that for those who may support RFK, voters who support RFK, who may agree with one thing he proposes, or just agree that, you know, they want someone from outside the government to come up and things, that Democrats have alienated those voters.

So, I think part of the normalizing of RFK is actually an attempt to try and win back some of those voters that supported him.

Ashley Parker: Just a horseshoe theory of politics is some of the stuff he says, whether it's rooted in science or not, right, that the far right likes, the far left also comes around and --

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Raw milk has a lot of people on both ends of the spectrum.

Ashley Parker: Yes, wrong raw milk, like liberal mommy bloggers, same with vaccines.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Now, listen, there's so many other people to get to. Kristi Noem, we haven't talked about. Dr. Oz, we haven't talked about. I do want to ask about something that seems if you told me ten years ago that a professional wrestling executive would become the secretary of education, I would have laughed, obviously, but, Laura, here we are. Linda McMahon is going to probably get through, I would imagine. I would imagine the president, you know, the Senate Republicans want to let people through when they can, obviously.

What does this say about -- sorry, essay question. What does this say about the merging of -- remember that there is that great line in Gladiator, Russell Crowe, kills 50 different gladiators, and then looks at the emperor, whoever, and says are you not entertained? You know, I mean, I feel like this is the most --

Laura Barron-Lopez: I'm about to see the Gladiator 2.

Jeffrey Goldberg: We're all going to see Gladiator 2 and we could talk about that on our next panel.

Laura Barron-Lopez: Sorry.

Jeffrey Goldberg: We should do that, but -- a special Thanksgiving edition. But what does it say that this kind of just is like, oh, yes, we're just going to have the world wrestling person (INAUDIBLE)?

Laura Barron-Lopez: I mean, again, it goes to Ashley's point, which is that this is about loyalty, blind loyalty to Donald Trump. She's someone that has been in his corner for a while now. And this isn't necessarily the job she initially wanted. You know, she wanted Commerce Department, didn't get it. So, he's like, look, you're a loyal soldier, I'm going to put you at Education Department. Because, ultimately, she will do what he wants her to do.

I mean, what's striking though, is that this is someone who's about to run the Education Department who essentially lied about having a bachelor's degree in education, and she had to resign from an education board in Connecticut because of that, because her resume wasn't up to snuff. She also is involved in a lawsuit. She's accused in a lawsuit of failing to stop a WWE announcer ignoring allegations that he was grooming and sexually abusing children.

Jeffrey Goldberg: No, that's a serious charge, but she probably will still get --

Andrew Desiderio: Yes, absolutely. Republican senators are starting out with deference to Donald Trump's nominees, and the drip, drip is going to change things.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Unfortunately, that's all the time we have. We can talk about this cabinet forever. But I want to thank Laura, Andrew, Zolan and Ashley for joining me at the table.