Clip: What's behind Trump's controversial Cabinet choices

Jeffrey Goldberg: Donald Trump hasn't filled his cabinet yet, but all evidence to-date suggests that he's looking for two main qualities in his picks, loyalty to him, and a loathing for what he calls the deep state. The deep state, of course, would refer to itself as that large group of professionals and subject experts who manage the government of the United States on a day-to-day basis.

I'm going to talk about Trump's choices tonight with Elizabeth Bumiller, the assistant managing editor and Washington bureau chief at The New York Times, Leigh Ann Caldwell is the anchor of Washington Post Live and a co-author of the Post's Early Brief, Francesca Chambers is a White House correspondent for USA Today and Mark Leibovich is my colleague and a staff writer at The Atlantic.

Okay. So, this has been really quite a week. Elizabeth, let me start with you. If you could just frame this out for us, these nominations, especially Matt Gaetz, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and Tulsi Gabbard, what does this telling you about both Trump's mindset and the direction, the policy direction of the incoming administration?

Elizabeth Bumiller, Washington Bureau Chief, The New York Times: Well, the policy direction is confused and chaotic. His mindset is just to -- you know, it's shock and awe, but mostly shock. You know, some people say it's trolling Washington.

You know, it started out somewhat normal this week when he named Marco Rubio, the longtime Republican senator from Florida, to the State Department. That seemed reasonable. Marco Rubio has a long history of being involved in foreign policy. His national security pick was a congressman from Florida, a conservative, Congressman Michael Waltz, also somewhat normal.

But then we got to the revenge of the deep state, the three agencies that, that gave him the most trouble when he was president the first time, the military, the intelligence agencies and the Justice Department. And he put people in those jobs, Matt Gaetz, who is, by the count of many Republicans in the Senate, completely unqualified, Tulsi Gabbard in charge of the intelligence agencies, she is a favorite of the Russians. They call her my girlfriend on Russian T.V. And then for the defense, we had we have Pete Hegseth, who was convicted of military crimes and then pardoned by Trump. So, it's a rogue's gallery.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Mark what are you taking from all this?

Mark Leibovich, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Well, I mean, it's clearly there's some shock and awe here. I mean, I think if you're looking at trolling, I mean, this gets an A, right? It's one thing after another. I mean, at a certain point, the trolling has to end, and you sort of wonder, how do these people run these massive agencies that have to be -- you know, that in the day-to-day have to -- I mean, these are people, to sort of paraphrase what someone once said about Jesse Jackson, these are mostly people who have never run anything but their mouth, right, or mouths.

And, you know, you, I mean, Kristi Noem, who's running Homeland Security, we didn't even talk about her, I mean, she's run, what, South Dakota. So --

Jeffrey Goldberg: North Dakota.

Mark Leibovich: North Dakota. Is it South Dakota?

Leigh Ann Caldwell, Anchor, Washington Post Live: North.

Mark Leibovich: Sorry, North Dakota.

Jeffrey Goldberg: We apologize to the people of all Dakotas.

Mark Leibovich: North Dakota.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Mark Leibovich: A smaller -- I mean, a large, sprawling agency that is the Department of Homeland Security.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Mark Leibovich: It is a big jump.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Leigh Ann, thoughts?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Okay. So, this is exactly what Donald Trump promised on the campaign trail.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Why does it seem like a shock if we know that he promised this?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: That's why we shouldn't be shocked, actually. I think that we have to reorient our mindset of what is normal, what has happened for decades in Washington within the guardrails of tradition, the law and everything else that we've known.

Donald Trump is trying to throw all of that out. And he is doing that by nominating people who will do exactly what he says. Matt Gaetz for attorney general, for example, he has no fear of creating chaos. He singlehandedly created a very small movement to kick out the last speaker of the House. And that is probably the least controversial thing that Matt Gaetz has done.

And Matt Gaetz has also agreed that the FBI should be dismantled. Donald Trump wants to investigate and potentially imprison his political opponents. So, putting someone in charge of a law enforcement agency, like Matt Gaetz, just is really continuing what Donald Trump said on the campaign trail. And there's always been that saying about Donald Trump, you have to take him literally, not --

Jeffrey Goldberg: Not seriously.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: No, seriously, but not literally.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: But I think in his second term, he knows what he's doing. He knows what he wants. He thinks that he has a mandate to do whatever he wants. And so we have to take him literally seriously.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Okay. We're going to take -- we're taking him literally and seriously.

And, Francesca, I want to ask you, stipulating that veteran Washington correspondents are not supposed to sit around and be surprised or shocked by anything, stipulated, what was the most surprising thing about this week to you, the most surprising appointment or nomination?

Francesca Chambers, White House Correspondent, USA Today: Well, I think that even those of us who had covered Donald Trump for four years at the White House like I did weren't really prepared for the pace of as they were coming, right? We even had the last Saturday night where he's ruling people out on social media and he was firing and hiring people on social media too. But the pace at which it started to come right after the election again, so he started naming people right away, I think, was, in some ways, a little bit surprising.

But they have largely been coming through formal statements this time, which really shows you -- no, that shows you what is actually different about the first time, because there has been more discipline this time in the way that his operation has been run. In terms of the leaks, you're not hearing as many leaks this time. You have --

Jeffrey Goldberg: Which is one of his top goals, obviously, for loyalty.

Francesca Chambers: But there have been fewer leaks. A lot of this has been attributed to the fact that he did pick Susie Wiles as his chief of staff, that there has been more discipline within the structure this time.

Jeffrey Goldberg: But wait one second. Didn't Susie Wiles not know that Matt Gaetz was being picked?

Elizabeth Bumiller: These have been happening very much, you know, on the back of an envelope, you know, that they've been happening, according to our reports.

Jeffrey Goldberg: So, the discipline is relative.

Francesca Chambers: And perhaps sometimes you don't know because Donald Trump is -- you know, no one knows but Donald Trump. I've also been cautioned that by his allies too. But I'm saying, in terms of there's been fewer leaks this time, there has been few, less of what I would consider talking to allies, less backstabbing and knifing than what we saw so far the first time around. But about the Dakotas, he has picked both the North Dakota governor, Doug Burgum, as well as the South Dakota governor, Kristi Noem. So, he's doing a total rein on the Dakota governors.

Jeffrey Goldberg: So, it's Florida and the Dakotas. Mark, What do you say?

Mark Leibovich: I would say that. But if you want to point to one thing that surprised me this week, it was I think Wednesday after the Hegseth nomination followed by the Gaetz nomination. You heard Republicans are shocked, they are freaking out on the Hill, Senators, Congress people. I'm like, what on earth were you expecting? I mean, you go campaigning for the --

Elizabeth Bumiller: I don't think they were expecting Matt Gaetz. I do not think they were expecting Matt Gaetz.

Mark Leibovich: But the idea that, like -- I mean, yes, these are largely blind quotes. But it's largely -- but the idea that anyone in Washington, any Republican in America who is serious did not expect this, or is at all shocked by this, is something I find shocking.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Do you remember the Monty Python routine, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition. I just was thinking of that. No one expected Matt Gaetz, except it is completely logical that he would pick -- he says he wants loyalty, and he says he wants to blow up Washington. So, I guess --

Elizabeth Bumiller: There is one theory that Matt Gaetz would be the sacrificial lamb that they would be able to -- that he would actually -- the Senate would vote him.

Jeffrey Goldberg: People with (INAUDIBLE)?

Elizabeth Bumiller: No, but it's out there, that the Senate would vote him down and then they would have -- they would show their --

Mark Leibovich: I think that's a viable theory.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Let's talk about probably in some ways the most controversial idea of RFK Jr., a vaccine -- not critic, but denier essentially to run HHS. I want you to listen to Kennedy being blunt about the issue of vaccines. Let's take a listen.

Unidentified Male: You've talked about that the media slanders you by calling you an anti-vaxxer and you've said that you're not anti-vaccine, you're pro-safe vaccine. Difficult question, can you name any vaccines that you think are good?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Former Independent Presidential Candidate: I think some of the live virus vaccines are probably averting more problems than they're causing. There's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Okay. So, this is the person who's going to be in charge of the CDC, the FDA, Medicaid, Medicare, the whole nine yards, right? How does this even work when you have somebody who doesn't believe in the efficacy of vaccines in charge of the national health complex with -- who is employing, who is the supervisor of thousands of doctors? Just explained to me how this could possibly work in a way that doesn't bend your mind out of shape.

Elizabeth Bumiller: Well, there's no answer. I can't explain it. But what you can say is that vaccines are administered by states and local governments, not the federal government. One of the great problems with the pandemic was that we had this diffuse healthcare delivery system, unlike your countries in Europe. So, in that way, they don't have to do what the federal government says.

However, if you've got Robert F. Kennedy Jr. up there saying this vaccines are unsafe, it's going to have a huge effect on the general population. And people -- you know, and it's not just, okay, so your child won't get vaccinated. Your child will get vaccinated. But as we have learned with the pandemic, everyone needs to be vaccinated.

Jeffrey Goldberg: It's the issue of herd immunity or whatever.

Francesca Chambers: But he's also coming under criticism from conservatives, conservatives such as former Vice President Mike Pence, who is taking issue with his stances on abortion. And you heard the anti-abortion rights groups today also come out against RFK after Pence said that the Senate should oppose him. So, that's also throwing a different and interesting wrench into this conversation.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Does that mean that he could not get Senate approval?

Francesca Chambers: I'm not sure at this point that senators are going to be following Mike Pence's advice, I would say, over Donald Trump's advice on these issues. And we were bantering about this before the show started, about whether anybody that Trump has picked would actually get rejected by the Senate.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Well, let's stay on that.

Francesca Chambers: There's 53 -- there's 50 -- Republicans will have 53 seats in the United States Senate, and no Republicans that I'm aware of, Leigh Ann, have come out to say that they're going to vote for -- vote against any of Trump's nominees.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes. So, I will say, first of all, remember when Republicans were appalled that Michelle Obama tried to put more vegetables in the school lunch program? Now we have RFK Jr. being the HHS potentially --

Jeffrey Goldberg: He's coming in and take your Pringles.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes, and no ultra processed foods. So, I am super skeptical that Republicans, that there are going to be more than four -- that there's going to be the four Republicans that are going to tank a Republican Donald Trump nominee. The reason is Donald Trump is going to put a tremendous amount of pressure on Republicans to support his nominees. Remember there's 53 senators, they need a simple majority. So, there's going to be that pressure campaign.

Then also, in addition to that, there are the online MAGA movement, the people who also give a lot of -- put a lot of pressure on these Republicans to act in support of Donald Trump. These senators are going to be threatened with primaries. It is going to take a lot of political capital if Donald Trump continues to stand by his nominees to vote one of his people.

Jeffrey Goldberg: But there are -- they do remain in the Senate, a handful. I mean, the Murkowskis and the Collins.

Mark Leibovich: Yes, those are the easy two.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Those are the easy two.

Elizabeth Bumiller: Joni Ernst, maybe.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I mean, Thom Tillis, North Carolina, he's up. I mean, they're -- I mean, Bill Cassidy, who voted -- Louisiana, who voted, I think, for -- or he voted to convict a few years (ph).

Jeffrey Goldberg: So, Mark, Elizabeth, plausible that RFK can get voted down or Gaetz can get voted down?

Elizabeth Bumiller: I think it's more plausible for Gaetz. He is so reviled and despised.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Because of personal issues on the Hill.

Elizabeth Bumiller: Many of the Senators hated in the House.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Let me play you something that Gaetz said. I think this is sort of an operative quote of Gaetz and the sort of mentality that we're looking at. Let me roll that.

Fmr. Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL): We either get this government back on our side or we defund and get rid of, abolish the FBI, CDC, ATF, DOJ, every last one of them, if they do not come to heel.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Very, very big question in Washington. No, this is -- I mean this goes from across the sweep of departments. If you hear that, that's your new boss, your new boss has said -- I mean he's going to be supervising the FBI, obviously the FBI comes under the DOJ, and the DOJ itself, he's saying he's going to abolish them. Why do the professionals, the people who are called or disparaged as the deep state, why do the professionals stay in government?

Elizabeth Bumiller: Well, there's a fear and loathing across the federal workforce right now in Washington. People are talking about moving. I mean, they're afraid of losing their jobs, obviously, but there's also the -- because it's Trump has promised to make it much easier to fire them and to cut all waste in government. So, there's -- many won't stay in their jobs. Many could leave, which would be catastrophic.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Do you think that's a high likelihood? I mean, it's one thing to posture and say, oh, I can't work for these guys, I'm going to leave, but these are good jobs, good wages, as Michael Dukakis used to say. And do you really think that we can like have a sweep of expertise out of the government?

Francesca Chambers: Well, we also saw after the first Trump administration that there were Officials who felt like they couldn't work for that government and they left but there were obviously a lot of people who also stayed and felt that it was their responsibility even if they disagreed with the president of the United States to continue to carry out the functions of the government and prepare potentially for the next four years when whoever is president then.

But it is important to also note that whatever any of these folks may have said in their personal capacity that it's Donald Trump who will be president of the United States. He's the one who'll be giving orders. And the reason that he picked all of these people in the first place, as we were discussing, is because, one, their loyalty, and, two, because he trusts them to do what he is asking.

And I think it's not just about loyalty, it's about a trust that these individuals will carry out what he specifically wants them to do. After the first time that he was president, he had individuals in his own cabinet rebuffing him.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Mark Leibovich: No. I would just say that I think there's going to be a massive hollowing out of these agencies, both mass firings, mass resignations. I think, you know, any -- I think it's going to be night and day compared to 2017. And it's going to make the built-in chaos of what this administration is going to try to do all the more so given that these people, again, have never run.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes. I reported a couple of weeks ago of this conservative group base, who is trying to find all the people who work in key agencies, like DHS, DOJ, other places, that's just the beginning, and sending them emails, asking if they are sympathetic, that they have been targeted because they are too sympathetic with Biden's policies or President Biden. So, it is creating a huge fear factor within the federal bureaucracy that then this was before Trump even got elected. And so, you know, there's a huge like chill factor that's happening right now,

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Let me stay on the Gaetz issue and the confirmation possibilities. I want to ask Leigh Ann and Francesca about Mike Johnson and Senator Thune and how likely they would be to block Gaetz if the report -- maybe you could talk about that for a minute, because Johnson has just said that the ethics committee report on Gaetz is going to be suppressed, not allowed to come out.

I'm going to assume that it's going to leak at some point. Do you think that there's a possibility that the information contained in that is so explosive that Mike Johnson, who is a conservative, family-oriented, moral man in his private life, is going to read that and say, no way this guy is going to be the chief law enforcement officer of the land?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: So, two days ago, Mike Johnson said that if the committee releases the -- votes to release the report, it's a committee of five Republicans, five Democrats. It's purposely like that, and a majority is necessary to release the report. Mike Johnson said, if the committee votes to release the report, let it be released.

Last night, he was at Mar-a-lago with Donald Trump. Today, he says he strongly encourages and advises the committee to not release that report. So, I think that is a huge clue of, again, the pressure that Donald Trump is going to put on regardless of how much people hate Matt Gaetz in the House of Representatives and the Republican Conference to not release this report.

Jeffrey Goldberg: And Mike Johnson is probably no fan of Matt Gaetz himself.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Oh, absolutely not. But I will say that, hopefully, that report leaks for our sake and you can leak it to the Washington Post if you would like.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Or The Atlantic, not The New York Times or you USA Today. Put your bids in now.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: The Ethics Committee is actually -- it's usually a very, very tight committee. Things do not leak from this committee. So, if it does leak, that is going to be fascinating.

The Senate Judiciary Committee thinks that if the report is not given to them from the Ethics Committee, that it will be part of the background check of the information that they get when they do the confirmation hearing of Matt Gaetz. But also Donald Trump is not committed to his nominees receiving FBI background checks.

Francesca Chambers: So, there is a difference between a Mike Johnson and a John Thune here. Okay, Mike Johnson is in his position with the support of Donald Trump. Now, John Thune is a longtime senator who Donald Trump -- it didn't weigh in that race in the end, but some of his allies did. They wanted Rick Scott for the position. He is not someone who has previously been known to have some sort of a close relationship with Donald Trump.

And so we're going both, because the Senate is more insulated by its six-year terms than the House of Representatives, where they have to run every two years, and just based on some of the things we've heard Thune say so far about how he believes that the minority should continue to have a voice in the United States Senate, he is going to be, I think, less than Mike Johnson, able to be as influenced by Donald Trump and I think probably more comparable to the way that Mitch McConnell operated the United States Senate.