Clip: Will Congress impeach Hegseth – and how will Trump react?

Jeffrey Goldberg: Nancy, Leigh Ann mentioned impeachment. I think it’s an open question whether the Democrats, should they take control of Congress will impeach -- try to impeach President Trump again. I think it’s fairly clear that Pete Hegseth might be impeached. What are you hearing?

Nancy Youssef, Staff Writer, The Atlantic: Well, Representative Massie’s put forth a resolution that would start the impeachment process. It has a number of charges in it, among them that he had censured Senator Mark Kelly for putting on a video telling service members to follow only legal orders or all legal orders.

I think the challenge is if he were to be impeached, does that weaken him or does that further embolden him with the president? Because arguably he could come back and say, Mr. President, you and I are both part of the same club in which we’ve been targeted by the Hill and impeached. President’s been impeached several times. And he might be able to leverage that.

So, I imagine that on the Hill, one of the calculations is how do you leverage impeachment such that it actually achieves what I think many legislators want, which is new leadership at the Pentagon, rather than further entrenching him into that job.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Leigh Ann, what are you hearing in terms of the -- inside the Democratic caucus about the urge to impeach President Trump himself?

Leigh Ann Caldwell, Chief Washington Correspondent, Puck: Before I get to Trump, I do want to talk about Hegseth for just one more beat, and that is that there’s widespread belief on Capitol Hill that he will be impeached in November when the Congress comes back during the lame duck. The bigger question is what happens in the Senate. The Senate is not going to convict him. But there is a --

Jeffrey Goldberg: Why do you say that?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Well, because I think even with the president’s plummeting approval ratings there is still going to be a huge pressure not to go against the president in that way.

But with that said, there is a lot of hope and wish casting, even among Republicans on the Hill, that the president get fires or asks Hegseth to step down so that they don’t have to deal with this because a lot of people do -- a lot of Republicans even don’t like Hegseth at the top of this Defense Department.

On the president, the party is divided. Democrats are divided on this. We’re going to have to see where it goes. There’s going to be a lot of pressure on Hakeem Jeffries to open an impeachment investigation. They are going to resist. But we’ll see where it goes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: The putative speaker in a House majority.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: Yes.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes. Zolan, is there something to this idea Nancy floated that impeachment might help Hegseth’s job security with Donald Trump?

Zolan Kanno-Youngs, White House Correspondent, The New York Times: Sure. I mean, I think so. I mean, particularly when you -- we’ve seen so much that this is a president that has tried to push forward this narrative that there’s a witch hunt, you know, against him and his allies.

He has designed this administration by, basically by assessing folks based off of their loyalty. And the opportunity where you have a defense secretary who is then put through a process that the president would deem to be similar to the one that he’s described as rigged against him, you can see how that would bring them closer.

I mean, at the same time -- you know, at the same time, I don’t think that the administration more broadly, when you talk about all the aides in the administration and what have you, and some of the senior officials, are like looking forward to any sort of impeachment process. But that result of sort of seeing a camaraderie of somebody and another opportunity to say, see, the Democrats are not focused on policymaking, they’re focused on, you know, being out to get us, you can see him putting forward that narrative.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Something that the president is very interested in is elections -- the issue of election security. And he beats the drum quite often on this. We’re a short distance away from these midterms.

I want to read something that, Zolan, you wrote just last week. Mr. Trump has been relentless in his efforts to sow doubt about the integrity of American elections, singling out a variety of issues that he claims are suspicious, whether -- suspicious, whether voting by mail or California’s slow vote counting.

Zolan, before you give us the overarching picture of where their efforts are right now to create this doubt, Nancy, can you talk about what the administration just announced it’s going to try to do in the Alaska Senate race?

Nancy Youssef: So, the Department of Justice sued Alaska and has asked a federal judge to block Alaska from certifying this election before it’s happened.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Nancy Youssef: But that’s only in the case if Dan Sullivan, the incumbent Republican, wins.

Their argument is that because there’s another candidate on the ballot with the same name, Dan Sullivan, Dan S. Sullivan is the incumbent, Dan J. Sullivan is the other candidate on there, that voters will be confused, and, therefore, that the intent of the voters won’t be achieved.

What’s unclear is how the federal government can know the intent of voters, but the idea that the Department of Justice is filing a lawsuit less than two weeks before an election, I think, has raised questions. Are the Republicans and is the administration trying to, in some way, set up a scenario in which they can change the outcome of the election if it doesn’t go the way they want?

The other thing that stands out to me is it’s in -- Alaska is one of a number of battleground states in which the president is fighting for his party even though he won by double digits there in a presidential election in the last presidential election.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. So, this -- Steve this Alaska ploy, is it a gimmick? Is there legal -- I mean, it’s an odd situation. You got Dan Sullivan running against another guy named Dan Sullivan. But -- or is this an effort to create a kind of pre-cloud this election?

Stephen Hayes, Editor, The Dispatch:Yes, I mean, I think it can be both, right? I do think in that case it’s likely they’re likely trying to set a precedent so that if they want to challenge it, really push to not certify, they can do it. The president can at least make that argument rhetorically.

We’ve seen him do this. I mean, I think that was this raid in California this past week where they invited the New York Post, reporter from the New York Post along, suggesting that there was a vote fraud ring. It wasn’t really a vote fraud ring, but they wanted to shine a light on the possibility of non-citizen voting, and they got that sort of media splash from having done that.

There are, I think, other indications that there will be problems, that the administration will take active steps. My colleague, John McCormick, reported on some odd behavior from Department of Justice employees in Wyoming, reddest of red states, where they went and they sort of went to the polls and were, you know, pushing themselves in, trying to interrogate poll workers and doing those things.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: It prompted a response from the governor as well.

Stephen Hayes: From the governor, who’s very -- the Republican governor spoke out against this. There was a 60 Minutes story this past week about the lieutenant governor in Utah who said she was unnerved by the things the administration was doing, pushing for information that was not --

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: The lieutenant governor of Utah told me in an interview for that story that for the first time, their state’s election preparedness sort of scenario planning includes not just preparing for the threat of natural disaster or foreign interference, but for the first time, interference from the federal government.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: The government that they long relied on as well.

Jeffrey Goldberg: And not exactly Massachusetts we’re talking about.

Yes, the Sullivan thing is so interesting, because how would a court possibly ascertain whether a person meant to vote for Dan Sullivan or meant to vote for Dan Sullivan?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: That’s right.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right? How would -- anyway, that’s a small issue.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: And the Alaska Supreme Court has already weighed in on that.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes. No, I mean, that’s why I’m suggesting it’s a gimmick.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: And it’s very important to note that the court, the Alaska Supreme Court, has indicated there will be Senator Dan Sullivan on the ballot to signify which one is the incumbent versus the random Dan Sullivan.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. Let’s go back to Ohio to talk about this Vivek Ramaswamy ad. It’s quite bizarre. It features the Democratic candidate for governor, Amy Acton’s mother denouncing her daughter as a liar. But Amy Acton, as a child, was removed from the house of the mother because she was married to a person who was credibly investigated for child abuse.

And the ad is extraordinary even by the debased standards of what we do in politics today. And President Trump has a very different view. Let’s listen to him quickly on this.

Donald Trump: Why wouldn’t you listen to a mother that says that? Why? Why wouldn’t you, Miss NBC, why wouldn’t you listen? Wait a minute. Quiet. You have a -- I don’t know anything about his stepfather. All you have --

Reporter: Raping his stepdaughter in 1978, sir.

Donald Trump: You just keep talking. I’m answering you, sir.

Donald Trump: You have a -- I don’t know anything about stepfather from many, many years ago. I know that recently a mother got on television and said that her daughter should not be governor of Ohio.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Steve, that was Monica Alba of NBC pressing the president. What is going on here with this advertising? It seems like a step change in even roughhousing that we see.

Stephen Hayes: Yes, it’s sort of lower than we’ve expected even in this, as you say, debased political environment. Look, I think the president admitted it right there. He said, I don’t know anything about the stepfather. The entire controversy is about the behavior of the stepfather, who was indicted for physically and sexually abusing his daughter. There are credible investigations. As you point out, her brother attests to the truth of this.

And what the Ramaswamy campaign -- I mean, it was interesting when the ad came out, it wasn’t initially clear that it was a Ramaswamy campaign ad, and I think most people who were calling around and asking questions assumed it was a, you know, some secret dark money PAC that would give the Ramaswamy campaign some distance from such an ugly ad. And within several hours, because they were behind it, they admitted that they were behind it, and they were bragging. And they said, this is going to effectively end Amy Acton’s campaign.

It’s bizarre that we’re at a moment where the Ramaswamy campaign and the political advisers there would think that recontesting these claims of 50 years ago, where they are taking the side of the mother who fled with the stepfather after he was indicted, they’re weighing in on this controversy from 50 years ago when there’s all of this evidence that what Amy Acton said happened in fact happened.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Leigh Ann, on a political level, put aside the moral level or the ethical level, this can’t possibly work for Ramaswamy, can it?

Leigh Ann Caldwell: No. Instead of sealing the fate for Amy Acton, the fate it sealed most likely is that Amy Acton is going to win the governor’s race.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Leigh Ann Caldwell: I mean, it, the whole thing is depressing and really sad. And there are Republicans I’m talking to are worried that the impact, the down ballot impact on Vivek is going to hurt Jon Husted, the Senate Republican candidate in that race, and even house candidates.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Right. In the few minutes we have left, I want to talk about Ukraine. And I want you to listen to -- Nancy, will you listen to Steve Witkoff speaking to Vladimir Putin this week? I want to get your reaction to this.

Steve Witkoff, U.S. Special Envoy to the Middle East: You talk so much about m- my president, President Trump, being a humanitarian. You are a humanitarian also, sir, and I salute that. I commend you, and I thank you again.

Jeffrey Goldberg: I mean, we’re talking about domestic politics and the various weirdnesses and cruelties in domestic politics, but this is next level, Vladimir Putin as a humanitarian being praised by one of President Trump’s closest aides. It’s become abundantly clear that Donald Trump likes Vladimir Putin and does not like the Ukrainian president, Zelenskyy.

Nancy, can Ukraine win without the U.S. over the next two years, or at least hold the line?

Nancy Youssef: Well, we have to remember that the Ukraine has seen the United States pull back its support even before this. We’ve seen the United States provide less weapons. We’ve seen public outbursts and confrontations between the president. And this week, we saw the United States not delivering promised interceptors.

I think the challenge for Ukraine is when they’re seeing sudden changes in their U.S. support with things like Starlink and Starshield, because the war is being driven a lot by technology. It is very much a drone warfare. And even now, those systems haven’t been restored.

So, I think the challenge for Ukraine twofold. It is the inconsistency in the United States’ support, and the inability for Europe to come back and provide that support that the United States won’t, and that Russia is as close as it’s ever been to Washington, and is getting that relationship without having to make any concessions on Ukraine.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Yes.

Nancy Youssef: And I think it’s the two of those things together that makes the war harder for the Ukrainians.

Jeffrey Goldberg: Zolan, inside the White House, do you get any sense that there are people high up, I’m thinking about Marco Rubio, for instance, who are like, what is going on here? How did we just suddenly switch very openly to Vladimir Putin?

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: If they do have those views, there’s little evidence that they’re making a strong case to actually push the president on it. And that says a lot about Trump 2.0, right? I think you said it earlier, that could be the statement for Trump round two. What the president wants to do, he’s essentially going to try and do, and he has made it clear he has to stand for Zelenskyy, he wants a closer relationship with Putin, and he’s willing to prioritize, or wants to prioritize deals, a transactional approach, even if it means sacrificing the long-held partnerships that the U.S. has had over --

Jeffrey Goldberg: Very quickly, you think a lot about the president and his predispositions. Is this more about liking Putin or not liking Zelenskyy?

Zolan Kanno-Youngs: That’s a good question. I think this is about basically him approaching the world stage, and he’s like, what am I gaining, right? And to him right now, he is gaining proximity to Putin and deals.