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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
>> THEY DESPISE OUR VALUES, AND THEY WANT TO SHED OUR EUROPEAN UNITY.
>> IS EUROPE UNDER THREAT?
THE HEADS OF EU AND NATO WARN MOSCOW IS WAGING A DANGEROUS AND RECKLESS CAMPAIGN.
I ASK FORMER U. S. AMBASSADOR MICHAEL CARPENTER WHAT COMES NEXT.
> >> THEN -- >> TERRITORY IS GOING TO BE THE MAIN ISSUE.
YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHERE THE SIDES ARE STILL APART.
>> DIPLOMAT AND DEAL MAKER.
JARED KUSHNER HAS NO OFFICIAL ROLE IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BUT HE IS HELPING NEGOTIATE SOME OF THE WORLD'S BIGGEST CONFLICTS WHILE PURSUING BILLIONS IN HIS OWN PRIVATE BUSINESS.
> >> NEW YORKER STAFF WRITER DEXTER FILKINS INVESTIGATES.
ALSO AHEAD -- >> WE'RE KIND OF LEARNING THE LIMITS OF THE TECHNOLOGY AS WELL AS THE WAYS IT CAN BE ABUSED.
>> TRACKED WHEREVER YOU GO?
A VAST NETWORK OF LICENSE PLATE CAMERAS HELPED POLICE SOLVE CRIMES, BUT ALSO RAISES ALARM OVER PRIVACY AND MASS SURVEILLANCE.
JOURNALIST JASON KOEBLER SPEAKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT HIS INVESTIGATION.
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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "
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THANK YOU.
> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.
I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
RUSSIA'S WAR ON UKRAINE IS RAISING NEW ALARM BELLS ACROSS EUROPE, THIS AS THEY COME UNDER ATTACK.
POLAND IS NOW REINFORCING SECURITY ALONG ITS BORDER WITH UKRAINE AFTER A WEEKEND OF HEAVY DRONE ATTACKS, INCLUDING ON A UKRAINIAN TRAIN STATION NEAR THE POLISH BORDER.
AND NATO SAYS IT'S SHOT DOWN A DRONE IN LITHUANIA'S AIRSPACE FOR THE FIRST TIME.
THE ESCALATION HAS PROVOKED STRONG WARNINGS FROM THE NATO SECRETARY GENERAL MARK RUTTE.
>> PUTIN KNOWS VERY WELL THAT HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DIVIDE US.
WE HAVE ALL THE RESPONSE OPTIONS WE NEED WHEN IT COMES TO HYBRID.
IT WILL NOT ALWAYS BE VISIBLE AND PUBLIC WHAT WE DO.
>> AND EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT URSULA VON DER LEYEN SAYS THE THREAT GOES FAR BEYOND THE BATTLEFIELD.
>> CYBER ATTACK, SABOTAGE, ARSON, DRONE INCURSION, THEY'RE RAMPING UP EVERY DAY.
SO AS THE THREAT LEVEL CLIMBS, SO MUST EUROPE'S PREPAREDNESS.
>> ALL THIS AS PRESIDENT TRUMP PUSHES FOR DE-ESCALATION WITH THE U. S. PROPOSING A MUTUAL HALT TO RUSSIAN AND UKRAINIAN STRIKES ON CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE.
MICHAEL CARPENTER SERVED AS PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR EUROPE ON THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL AND IS A FORMER U. S. AMBASSADOR TO THE ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE, AND HE'S JOINING US LIVE FROM PRAGUE.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, AMBASSADOR.
>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
>> SO WHAT WAS --CROSSED YOUR MIND FIRST.
WHAT ALARM BELLS SORT OF STARTED TO RING WHEN THERE WAS THIS BRAZEN ATTACK ON THAT TRAIN STATION AND IT WAS JUST AS A SEPARATE TRAIN WAS PASSING THROUGH KNOWN SORT OF COLLOQUIALLY AS THE PEACE TRAIN, CARRYING OFFICIALS AND THINK TANKERS WHO HAD JUST BEEN ON A CONFERENCE IN KYIV?
>> WELL, HAVING BEEN ON THAT TRAIN NUMEROUS TIMES MYSELF, ACTUALLY, THE THOUGHT THAT CROSSED MY MIND WAS HERE WE ARE.
IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME UNTIL WE GOT TO THIS INCIDENT.
AND HERE WE ARE WITH RUSSIANS MOST LIKELY DELIBERATELY TAKING STRIKES AT TRAINS KNOWING THAT SENIOR RUSSIAN OFFICIALS --EXCUSE ME, THAT SENIOR EUROPEAN OFFICIALS ARE ON BOARD.
RUSSIA HAS BEEN SENDING A SIGNAL OVER THE COURSE OF AT LEAST THE LAST FEW MONTHS USING ITS BALLISTIC MISSILE ATTACKS TO SHOW THAT ALMOST NO TARGET IS OFF LIMITS.
WE KNOW ABOUT THEIR ATTEMPTS TO TARGET PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S AIRPLANE IN MOLDOVA, AND NOW THIS BRAZEN STRIKE ON A TRAIN CARRYING EUROPEAN DIPLOMATS.
>> SO ARE YOU BASICALLY SAYING, AMBASSADOR, THAT MOSCOW, IE PUTIN, BECAUSE HE MAKES THE TOP DECISIONS, HAS DECIDED TO TRY TO ASSASSINATE ACTUAL LEADERS OR TO SCARE THEM?
I MEAN, AN ATTEMPT ON ZELENSKYY'S PLANE, AN ATTEMPT ON A TRAIN THAT WAS NEAR THIS PARTICULAR TRAIN, WHAT MESSAGE IS PUTIN TRYING TO GIVE KYIV'S ALLIES?
>> I THINK THE MESSAGE IS TO TRY TO SCARE EVERYONE ACROSS EUROPE.
AND IT'S NO SECRET THAT HE HAS TARGETED ZELENSKYY AT MULTIPLE POINTS DURING THE COURSE OF THIS WAR.
NOW EUROPEAN OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN LARGELY OFF LIMITS.
I THINK IF MY INTUITION IS CORRECT, I THINK THIS IS LIKELY A DELIBERATE ATTEMPT TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT EUROPEANS WHO ARE SUPPORTING UKRAINE, EITHER BY TRAVELING TO KYIV TO SHOW THEIR DIPLOMATIC SUPPORT, OR THOSE IN WEST EUROPEAN COUNTRIES WHO ARE PROVIDING MATERIAL SUPPORT TO UKRAINE.
LOOK, WE'VE HEARD ABOUT A NUMBER OF RUSSIAN ATTEMPTS ON THE LIVES OF THOSE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THE PRODUCTION OF DEFENSE MATERIALS.
FOR EXAMPLE, THE CEO OF THE RUSSIAN DEFENSE COMPANY RHEINMETALL.
BUT ALSO SABOTAGE OPERATIONS ON WAREHOUSES AND OTHER LOGISTICS NODES THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.
AGAIN, THE MESSAGE IS CRYSTAL CLEAR TO EUROPEANS FROM PUTIN.
IT IS EVERYTHING IS A LEGITIMATE TARGET, AND THIS IS A WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA AND EUROPE.
A LOT OF EUROPEANS DON'T LIKE TO HEAR THAT, AND IT IS LARGELY AN UNCONVENTIONAL WAR, BUT IT IS A WAR NONETHELESS.
>> WELL, CERTAINLY THE WEEKEND TRAIN ATTACK GOT A LOT OF THINK TANKERS AND OFFICIALS AND ANALYSTS STARTING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY NATO'S RESPONSE SHOULD BE.
SHOULD NATO START TO TAKE DOWN RUSSIAN DRONES, YOU KNOW, EVEN BEFORE THEY GET CLOSE TO THEIR TERRITORY, IF THEY LOOK LIKE THEY'RE HEAD TOWARDS THEM?
WHAT DO YOU THINK AND WHERE TO YOU THINK THIS PARTICULAR TURNING POINT IS GOING TO LEAD TO?
>> WELL, THE PRIME MINISTER OF LITHUANIA HAS ALREADY INDICATED PUBLICLY THAT NATO PLANES HAVE TAKEN DOWN DRONES OVER HIS TERRITORY.
A NUMBER OF SO-CALLED ERRANT DRONES, AND I SAY THAT WITH QUOTES HAVE VENTURED INTO NATO TERRITORY, INTO POLAND, OF COURSE, FAMOUSLY A YEAR AGO, BUT THEN ALSO INTO VARIOUS OTHER COUNTRIES, INCLUDING ROMANIA, AND SOME OF THE BALTIC COUNTRIES.
UNFORTUNATELY, TAKING OUT A DRONE USING EITHER AN F-16 AIRCRAFT OR SOME OTHER MEANS IS OF COURSE JUSTIFIED.
AND I WOULD ALSO THINK THAT TAKING DOWN DRONES BEFORE THEY REACH NATO TERRITORY IS ALSO JUSTIFIED.
BUT ALONE THAT IS NOT ENOUGH TO DETER PUTIN FROM PURSUING THIS HYBRID OR UNCONVENTIONAL WARFARE.
BECAUSE PUTIN LOOKS VERY CAREFULLY AT THE COSTS AND BENEFITS.
IF IT IS JUST SIMPLY TAKING OUT A DRONE BEING FIRED INTO NATO TERRITORY, THAT'S NO COST TO RUSSIA.
HE WOULD HAVE TO SEE THERE IS A COST IMPOSITION STRATEGY THAT WAS COORDINATED FROM EUROPEAN ALLIES THAT WAS CAUSING MORE DAMAGE TO HIS ASSETS AND HIS CAPABILITIES THAN WHAT HE IS CURRENTLY PROSECUTING WITH HIS HYBRID CAMPAIGN AGAINST EUROPE.
BUT NATO LACKS THAT STRATEGY, CHRISTIANE.
UNFORTUNATELY, THERE IS NO COORDINATED NATO STRATEGY OF TAKING ALL THESE VARIOUS INCIDENTS IN THE AGGREGATE AND RESPONDING TO THEM COLLECTIVELY RATHER THAN AS ONE-OFFS.
RIGHT NOW WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE EVERY EUROPEAN NATO ALLY IS ESSENTIALLY FORCED TO CONFRONT RUSSIA'S HYBRID WARFARE ON THEIR OWN, RESPONDING EITHER IN KIND OR THROUGH ASYMMETRIC MEANS, BUT ON THEIR OWN.
>> SO WHAT ARE YOU SUGGESTING?
WHAT DOES A COORDINATED ACTION LOOK LIKE?
AND THE HEAD OF NATO, MARK RUTTE, SAID THAT THERE WILL BE A RESPONSE, AND IT MIGHT EVEN BE COVERT, HE SAID IN WAYS SEEN AND UNSEEN.
OBVIOUSLY PUTIN IS TRYING TO TEST NATO RESOLVE, PROVOKING NATO.
WHAT SHOULD THEY DO NOW AFTER AS YOU RIGHTLY SAY THESE PAST FOUR PLUS YEARS OF, YOU KNOW, PIECEMEAL RESPONSE?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK MARK RUTTE IS RIGHT.
THERE ARE SOME RESPONSES THAT WE DON'T SEE.
FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE CYBER DOMAIN OR IN OTHER DOMAINS WHERE WHAT NATO OR WHAT INDIVIDUAL ALLIES DO IS NOT NECESSARILY PUBLIC.
HOWEVER, I THINK THE TOTALITY OF NATO RESPONSES TO RUSSIA'S UNCONVENTIONAL CAMPAIGN IS HIGHLY UNDERWHELMING.
I DON'T THINK --EMPIRICALLY SPEAKING, PUTIN HAS NOT BEEN DETERRED.
MY ORGANIZATION, THE INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES HAS BEEN TRACKING HYBRID INCIDENTS ACROSS EUROPE AND HAS FOUND A THREEFOLD INCREASE FROM 2022 TO 2025.
AND THAT ALSO DOES NOT EVEN ENCAPSULATE THE INCREASE IN THE SCALE AND SCOPE OF THE TYPES OF INCIDENTS THAT WE'RE SEEING COMING FROM RUSSIA.
NATO HAS BEEN, RUTTE GETS CREDIT FOR THIS, HAS BEEN BUILDING A COMMON OPERATIONAL PICTURE SO ALLIES ARE AWARE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING ON EACH OTHER'S TERRITORY, AND THEY'RE SHARING INFORMATION A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN THEY WERE A FEW YEARS AGO.
BUT AGAIN, THE COST IMPOSITION PIECE IS THE CRITICAL PIECE THAT'S MISSING FROM THE NATO STRATEGY.
WE'RE NOT SEEING SIGNIFICANT COSTS BEING BORNE BY RUSSIA.
AND FRANKLY, THOSE DON'T HAVE TO BE IN KIND IF RUSSIA'S FIRING DRONES.
I WOULDN'T SUGGEST THAT NATO FIRE DRONES BACK, BUT NATO HAS A LOT OF ECONOMIC STATECRAFT TOOLS BEYOND SANCTIONS AND TARIFFS THAT IT COULD DEPLOY.
AND IT SHOULD MEANINGFULLY SIGNAL THAT RUSSIA IS GOING TO PAY A COST FOR ITS ACTIONS.
>> YEAH, AND THE QUESTION ALWAYS IS WHAT COST.
WHAT?
YOU'VE IMPOSED GLOBAL SANCTIONS.
THERE IS RUSSIAN ISOLATION, ALL THE REST OF IT, BUT IT DOESN'T SEEM TO, AS YOU SAY, HAVE DETERRED PUTIN.
CAN I JUST ASK YOU, SINCE YOU DID WORK UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ON THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL, DO YOU THINK THAT ADMINISTRATION SHOULD HAVE TAKEN MUCH STRONGER MOVES, IN OTHER WORDS, LAID DOWN THE SET OF RESPONSES AND THE RED LINES FOR NATO, FOR THE UNITED STATES IF PUTIN WERE TO DO WHAT HE IS DOING NOW?
>> YEAH, IT'S A GOOD QUESTION, CHRISTIANE.
WE WERE IN THE MIDST OF SETTING UP A COORDINATION CELL WITH OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES.
YOU'LL RECALL THE DHL INCENDIARY PACKAGE PLOT BACK IN 2024 REALLY CAPTURED OUR ATTENTION, AND WE DEVOTED A LOT OF RESOURCES TO SPEAKING WITH ALLIES ABOUT THIS PLOT.
YOU KNOW, IT HAD THE POTENTIAL TO PRODUCE A MASS CASUALTY EVENT BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE PACKAGES THAT WERE BEING SENT BY PRIVATE CARRIERS LIKE DHL ARE IN FACT CARRIED ON CIVILIAN AIRCRAFT WITH PASSENGERS.
AND SO IF ONE OF THOSE PLANES HAD GONE DOWN, WE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT A MASS CASUALTY EVENT.
AND THEN THE ESCALATION WOULD BE OFF TO THE RACES.
SO IN THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, WE HAD CONVENED ON AT LEAST ONE OCCASION IN LONDON AND THEN SEVERAL MORE VIRTUAL CONVERSATIONS A GROUP OF CORE ALLIES TO TALK ABOUT HOW WE DEVISE A STRATEGY TO TRACK THESE INCIDENTS, DENY RUSSIA THE SPACE AND THE MANPOWER TO BE ABLE TO CARRY THEM OUT, BECAUSE THERE IS STILL AN AWFUL LOT OF RUSSIAN OPERATIVES THAT ARE ABLE TO MOVE FAIRLY FREELY BETWEEN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.
BUT THEN, AS I SAID ALSO, THE COST IMPOSITION PIECE.
WE WERE DISCUSSING IT.
THERE IS PLENTY OF HEADROOM AS FAR AS SANCTIONS ARE CONCERNED, BUT THERE IS ALSO EFFECTS THAT CAN BE HAD THROUGH ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE THAT WOULD DEFINITELY GET RUSSIA'S ATTENTION.
AND SO WE WERE IN THE PROCESS OF IMPLEMENTING A STRATEGY, OR TRYING TO CRAFT ONE, BUT NEVER QUITE GOT TO THE FINISH LINE ON IT, AND IT'S DESPERATELY NEEDED TODAY.
>> YEAH.
AND SO IS MORE ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE, APPARENTLY.
YOU CAN SEE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOT BEEN SO FORTHCOMING, AND NOW THEY'RE RUNNING OUT APPARENTLY OF THE KIND OF DEFENSIVE MISSILES THAT UKRAINE NEEDS AND OTHER EQUIPMENT.
AND JUST NOW, I JUST WANT TO RUN THIS BY YOU, BECAUSE CNN IS DOING ON INVESTIGATION ON RUSSIAN SATELLITES.
APPARENTLY 14 RUSSIAN SPY SATELLITES SWEPT OVER A U. S. AIR BASE IN SAUDI ARABIA IN MARCH, SO MANY MONTHS AGO, JUST BEFORE AN IRANIAN MISSILE AND DRONE STRIKE WHICH WOUNDED AMERICAN SERVICE MEMBERS, DESTROYED TWO CRITICAL ASSETS, INCLUDING AN AWACs PLANE.
IN OTHER WORDS, RUSSIA IS NOT JUST FIGHTING UKRAINE OR, YOU KNOW, POKING EUROPE, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY HELPING AMERICA'S ENEMIES IN THIS NEW WAR TOO.
>> NO, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
AND NONE OF YOUR LISTENERS SHOULD BE SURPRISED BY THIS, THAT RUSSIA WOULD BE PROVIDING INTELLIGENCE TO AN ADVERSARY LIKE IRAN TO TARGET U. S. FACILITIES AND SERVICE MEMBERS.
AS CHILLING AS IT IS, WE'VE SEEN THIS REPEATEDLY OVER THE COURSE OF MANY YEARS.
RUSSIA VIEWS ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES IN ZERO SUM TERMS, AND THEY WANT TO HURT THE UNITED STATES.
AND SO WE NEED TO BE COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THAT THAT IS WHERE RUSSIA IS.
AND, YOU KNOW, IT WORRIES ME THAT I HEAR TALK OF WIN-WIN SOLUTIONS COMING FROM THE ADMINISTRATION WITH REGARDS TO UKRAINE, BUT ALSO WITH REGARDS TO THE MIDDLE EAST.
BUT THAT IS NOT VLADIMIR PUTIN'S INTENTION.
HE IS NOT LOOKING FOR A WIN-WIN.
>> WELL, NOT ONLY THAT, THERE HAS BEEN A PLETHORA OF ARTICLES WRITTEN, AND, YOU KNOW, FACTS ON THE GROUND, SO TO SPEAK, OR IN THE AIR.
THE AMOUNT OF SURGE IN RUSSIAN ATTACKS ON UKRAINE IS UNBELIEVABLE.
AND, YOU KNOW, AROUND THE CLOCK, SUPER CHARGED WEAPONS SYSTEMS, UNLIKE WHAT THEY HAD BEFORE.
AS WE'VE SEEN, DARING ATTACKS ON EUROPEANS AND OTHERS.
SO THE QUESTION IS, MARK RUTTE SAYS THAT PUTIN IS ACTING OUT OF DESPERATION.
OTHERS SAY ACTUALLY IT SHOWS HE IS CONFIDENT, AND NO AMOUNT OF PUSHBACK IS GOING TO STOP HIM FROM FIGHTING.
SO LET ME JUST RUN THIS BY YOU.
YOU'VE RECENTLY SAID THAT RUSSIA WAS IN A POSITION OF, QUOTE, HISTORIC WEAKNESS.
LAST MONTH, THE CHIEF ECONOMIST AT THE RUSSIAN STATE DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION WHO WAS FIRED AFTER SAYING THE FOLLOWING, "WE ARE FALLING BEHIND.
WE'RE LOSING BOTH THE TECHNOLOGICAL AND ECONOMIC COMPETITION IN THE WORLD.
WE'RE NOT ONLY LOSING IT TO CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES, IN SOME RESPECTS, WE'RE LOSING IT TO UKRAINE. "
FIRST OF ALL, IS THAT AN UP-TO-DATE ASSESSMENT FROM INSIDE RUSSIA?
AND IS THIS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, WARNING REACHING THE KREMLIN?
THE GUY WAS FIRED SO IT MUST BE REACHING THE KREMLIN.
BUT ARE PEOPLE TAKING IT IN?
>> WELL, TWO THINGS CAN BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME.
ONE IS THAT RUSSIA FACES A SERIES OF OVERLAPPING VULNERABILITIES THAT ARE STARTING TO REINFORCE ONE ANOTHER.
CERTAINLY ITS ECONOMY, THE CIVILIAN ECONOMY HAS BEEN CANNIBALIZED ALMOST COMPLETELY BY THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.
SO AS RUSSIA HAS GROWN THAT MILITARY INDUSTRIAL BASE, THE CIVILIAN ECONOMY HAS SUFFERED A FAIRLY DEEP RECESSION, AND THERE IS ANY NUMBER OF PROXY VARIABLES THAT TESTIFY TO THAT.
SOCIALLY, RUSSIA IS ALSO IN A PERIOD OF SORT OF DEEP MALAISE, I WOULD SAY.
IF YOU READ SOME OF THE SHARPER ETHNOGRAPHIC ACCOUNTS THAT COME OUT OF RUSSIA TODAY, THEY SHOW THAT WHILE THERE MAY NOT YET BE OVERCRITICISM OF VLADIMIR PUTIN, THERE IS A LOT OF CRITIQUE OF THE SITUATION THAT RUSSIA FINDS ITSELF IN TODAY.
SO YES, RUSSIA IS HISTORICALLY WEAK.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE WEST IS NOT REALLY USING THE TOOLS AT ITS DISPOSAL TO MAKE RUSSIA EVEN WEAKER.
FOR EXAMPLE, USING THOSE FROZEN RUSSIAN ASSETS THAT LIE IN WESTERN JURISDICTIONS.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, CHRISTIANE, PUTIN DOES SENSE BLOOD IN THE WATER WHEN IT COMES TO UKRAINE BECAUSE UKRAINE HAS RUN OUT OF ANTI-BALLISTIC MISSILE INTERCEPTORS.
THESE ARE A KEY CAPABILITY THAT ALLOW THEM TO DEFEND THEIR CITIES AGAINST THESE HORRIFIC BALLISTIC MISSILE ATTACKS.
THEY'VE BEEN PRETTY GOOD AT DEFENDING AGAINST DRONES.
AND GOD KNOWS THAT RUSSIA FIRES HUNDREDS OF DRONES AT UKRAINE DAILY.
BUT THE BALLISTIC MISSILES ARE NOW THE PROBLEM.
AND AS WE HEAD INTO WINTER, I THINK PUTIN IS REALLY GOING TO DOUBLE DOWN ON ATTACKING THE ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE, TRYING TO PLUNGE UKRAINIAN CITIES INTO DARKNESS AND COLD, AND FORCING UKRAINIANS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY ESSENTIALLY THIS WINTER.
>> YEAH, INDEED.
THIS WINTER IS GOING TO BE POTENTIALLY MAKE OR BREAK FOR BOTH SIDES.
AND AS YOU SAY, PUTIN SHOWS NO SIGN OF WANTING TO END THIS, DESPITE THE PRESSURES THAT ARE ON HIM NOW, WHICH IS NOT ENOUGH.
EVEN WITH MORE PRESSURES, ACCORDING TO A LOT OF ANALYSTS.
BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU SOMETHING THAT FRANKLY SHOCKS ME, AND I'M SURE IT --WELL, A LOT OF PEOPLE.
BUT THERE WAS AN ARTICLE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES," AN INVESTIGATION INTO CORRUPTION AND DEFENSE PROCUREMENT AND THE KIND OF MONEY THAT THEY'RE TRYING TO RAISE IN UKRAINE TO ACTUALLY GET THE RIGHT WEAPONS TO HELP THEIR FORCES IN THE FIELD AND TO SAVE THEIR COUNTRY.
AND IT WAS PRETTY AWFUL TO SEE THE CHAPTER AND VERSE OF HOW CERTAIN UKRAINIANS INVOLVED IN THIS PROCUREMENT EFFORT WERE JUST POCKETING IT.
AND NOW, AND NOW, THE EU, WHICH EARLIER FINALIZED A MASSIVE LOAN IS BEING ASKED FOR MORE, YOU KNOW, BY ZELENSKYY HIMSELF, SOME $27 BILLION.
WHAT DOES THIS - -WHAT DOES THIS SAY TO EVERYBODY?
I MEAN, PEOPLE --WHERE IS THIS GOING TO LEAD?
>> WELL, LOOK, CHRISTIANE, THIS HAS BEEN --UKRAINE HAS BEEN FIGHTING A TWO-FRONT WAR SINCE AT LEAST 2014, AN EXTERNAL WAR OF AGGRESSION WAGED BY RUSSIA, BUT ALSO AN INTERNAL WAR AGAINST THESE FORCES OF CORRUPTION THAT HAVE PLAGUED UKRAINE FOR SO MANY DECADES, AND FRANKLY, THAT ARE OFTEN LUBRICATED BY RUSSIAN AGENTS, AT LEAST IN THE PAST, IF NOT TODAY.
SO IT'S VERY DISAPPOINTING WHEN WE HEAR ABOUT SOME OF THESE PROCUREMENT SCAMS AND GRAFT AND CORRUPTION COMING FROM INSIDE UKRAINE, EVEN FROM SENIOR OFFICIALS IN THE CABINET SUCH AS THE PROSECUTOR GENERAL WHO HAS JUST FLED THE COUNTRY.
IT'S VERY DISAPPOINTING.
BY THE SAME TOKEN, I THINK UKRAINE'S SURVIVAL AS A DEMOCRATIC INDEPENDENT SOVEREIGN STATE HAS TO BE THE STRATEGIC GOAL BOTH FOR THE UNITED STATES AND FOR OUR EUROPEAN PARTNERS, AND IT MEANS HELPING UKRAINE TO FIGHT THIS CORRUPTION EVEN AS WE HELP THEM TO PROSECUTE THE WAR.
AND, YOU KNOW, THE WEST HELPED UKRAINE STAND UP THESE TREMENDOUS ANTI-CORRUPTION INSTITUTIONS, INCLUDING THE NATIONAL ANTI-CORRUPTION BUREAU, WHICH HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING A LOT OF THESE KEY CASES.
IT ACTUALLY WORKS, BELIEVE IT OR NOT.
BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT THEY STRUGGLE WITH MONTH AFTER MONTH, UNFORTUNATELY.
>> YEAH.
AMBASSADOR CARPENTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR INSIGHTS.
> >> NOW TO THE MAN PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS DISPATCHED TO HELP NEGOTIATE SOME OF THE WORLD'S BIGGEST CONFLICTS.
JARED KUSHNER HAS NO OFFICIAL ROLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION, BUT THE PRESIDENT'S SON-IN-LAW HAS EMERGED AS A KEY PLAYER FROM UKRAINE TO IRAN AND GAZA ALL WHILE MAINTAINING A VAST NETWORK OF PRIVATE BUSINESS INTERESTS.
"THE NEW YORKER'S" DEXTER FILKINS HAS INVESTIGATED HOW KUSHNER'S DIPLOMACY AND DEAL MAKING INTERSECT AND THE POTENTIAL CONFLICTS THAT IT RAISES.
HE'S JOINING US NOW FROM NEW YORK.
DEXTER, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.
>> HEY, CHRISTIANE.
>> SO LET ME JUST READ THE TITLE, BECAUSE IT'S PRETTY PROVOCATIVE.
"JARED KUSHNER'S DOLLAR DIPLOMACY. "
AND YOU WRITE THAT HE REPRESENTS A NEW KIND OF WASHINGTON FIGURE FOR WHOM PUBLIC OFFICE SERVES AS A MEANS TO EXTRAORDINARY WEALTH.
DEFEND THAT STATEMENT.
>> WELL, LOOK, IT'S --JARED KUSHNER'S WEARING TWO HATS.
HE IS EFFECTIVELY --HE AND STEVE WITKOFF ARE EFFECTIVELY SECRETARIES OF STATE.
THEY FLY ALL OVER THE WORLD TO KIND OF MAKE PEACE AND TO DO DIPLOMACY, WHICH IS FINE.
BUT WHAT'S --WHAT'S DISTURBING HERE, AND IT'S THE CONTRADICTION THAT I TRIED TO EXPLORE IN THE STORY IS AT THE VERY SAME TIME HE IS FLYING AROUND THE WORLD TO DO DIPLOMATIC MISSIONS, HE IS FLYING AROUND THE WORLD TO MANAGE HIS INVESTMENTS.
SO HE IS NEGOTIATING THE SAME COUNTRIES WHERE HE HAS INVESTMENTS.
SO THAT --THAT CREATES --IT'S LIKE WHICH HAT ARE YOU WEARING TODAY?
THAT CREATES POTENTIAL REALLY SERIOUS CONFLICTS OF INTEREST.
LIKE JUST TO GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, HE GOES TO ISRAEL PRETTY OFTEN.
HE HAS GONE ISRAEL TO TRY TO SOLVE THE GAZA --THE GAZA WAR AND TO MAKE A CEASEFIRE AND GET THE HOSTAGES RELEASED.
AT THE VERY SAME TIME, HE'S MANAGING INVESTMENTS THERE.
SO YOU CAN SEE, YOU CAN SEE POTENTIALLY THE CONFLICTS THAT THAT RAISES.
AND THERE IS A COUPLE OF REALLY SERIOUS ONES WHICH --POTENTIALLY SERIOUS ONES THAT I EXPLORE IN THE PIECE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN UKRAINE.
>> AND DEXTER, YOU KNOW, HE WOULD SAY, AND HE HAS SAID IT PUBLICLY, AND I'M GOING READ IT, RIGHT, HE SAYS, BASICALLY, THAT THESE --HE'S LOOKING FOR INVENTIVE SOLUTIONS TO PROBLEMS THAT ARE ORDINARILY HANDLED BY, QUOTE, UNIMAGINATIVE BUREAUCRATS.
HE SAID THAT ON A TV PROGRAM.
THIS IS WHAT HE SAID TO "60 MINUTES" LAST OCTOBER ACTUALLY AROUND THE GAZA DEAL, THAT WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT IN A MINUTE.
QUOTE, FOCUS ON INTERESTS OVER VALUES SOMETIMES AND FIGURE OUT WHERE DO WE HAVE JOINT INTERESTS WITH OTHER COUNTRIES AND PURSUE THOSE JOINT INTERESTS, AND THEN WHERE YOU HAVE DIFFERENCES ON INTERESTS OR VALUES, DISCUSS THOSE PRIVATELY AND TRY TO FIND WAYS TO GET TO IT THE BEST PLACE POSSIBLE. "
HOW DOES THAT SOUND TO YOU?
IT'S KIND OF THE PRAGMATIC ROLE THAT HE'S TRYING TO DESCRIBE VERSUS THE TRADITIONAL DIPLOMATIC ROLE.
>> I MEAN, IT SOUNDS GREAT, BUT I THINK THE REALITY IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT THAN THAT.
AND I THINK IN --I THINK IN GAZA, HE AND WITKOFF, THEY GOT THE CEASEFIRE.
THEY GOT THE LAST OF THE HOSTAGES OUT.
I THINK THERE WERE 28 THAT WERE STILL --THAT WERE STILL LEFT.
THOSE ARE ALL GOOD THINGS.
BUT IF YOU TAKE --TAKE FOR INSTANCE THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH IRAN IN GENEVA RIGHT BEFORE THE WAR STARTED.
THOSE WERE THE LAST NEGOTIATIONS WE HAD, AND THEY FAILED.
AND IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME --I THINK INCREASINGLY IT'S CLEAR TO ME THAT NEITHER WITKOFF NOR KUSHNER FULLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT WAS BEING PUT ON THE TABLE IN FRONT OF THEM BY THE IRANIANS.
AND THE IRANIAN REGIME, WE ALL KNOW ABOUT THEM.
THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS TRUSTWORTHY.
THEY CAN BE QUITE CONNIVING AND BACKSTABBING.
BUT THEY WERE PRETTY CLEARLY I THINK PUTTING PROPOSALS ON THE TABLE THAT WERE SERIOUS, AND THEY WERE --THEIR NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS ARE VERY TECHNICAL.
IT'S PRETTY CLEAR TO ME TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE ROOM THAT KUSHNER AND WITKOFF DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS BEING PUT IN FRONT OF THEM.
SO YOU CAN DESPAIR TO DIPLOMATS AND SAY OH, THEY'RE A BUNCH OF CLOWNS AND THEY GET BOGGED DOWN IN THESE DETAILS AND ALL THE HISTORY, BUT LIKE THIS STUFF IS HARD, YOU KNOW.
AND IF IT WEREN'T HARD, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLVED BY NOW.
AND SO I THINK THAT'S THE TROUBLE.
IT'S A KIND OF --IT'S A KIND OF HUBRIS THAT THEY'RE BRINGING TO THESE NEGOTIATIONS WHICH IS LIKE WE'RE REALLY SMART GUYS.
WE'RE JUST REAL ESTATE GUYS, BUT HEY, WE'RE PRAGMATISTS.
WE CAN DO IT.
AND IT'S NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR FROM THE RECORD THAT THAT'S TRUE.
>> OKAY.
SO LET US STICK WITH WHAT YOU WERE JUST SAYING ABOUT THAT LAST NEGOTIATION, WHICH WAS HAPPENING IN SWITZERLAND AND, YOU KNOW, BROKE DOWN AND A DAY LATER OR TWO DAYS LATER, THE WAR STARTED.
SO YOU WRITE, "ABBAS ARAGHCHI THE IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER OFFERED CONCESSIONS.
IRANIANS WERE OFFERING TO SUSPEND NUCLEAR ENRICHMENT ENTIRELY WHICH THEY'D NOT DONE BEFORE. "
AND INDEED, I'D SPOKEN TO OTHERS THAT WERE AROUND THAT PLACE, AND THEY ALSO SAY THEY WERE SURPRISED BY THE CONCESSIONS THE IRANIANS WERE OFFERING, CONCESSIONS THEY HADN'T BEFORE.
AND DAY BEFORE THE WAR, OMAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER, HE WAS A KEY MEDIATOR.
HE FLEW TO WASHINGTON AFTER THE TALKS BROKE DOWN TO MAKE A LAST-MINUTE PLEA FOR PEACE.
HERE'S WHAT HE SAID TO CBS.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> I AM CONFIDENT AND IN MY ASSESSMENT OF THE WAY THE TALKS ARE GOING.
I THINK THERE IS REALLY I CAN SEE THAT THE PEACE DEAL IS WITHIN OUR REACH.
>> A PEACE DEAL?
>> YES.
IS WITHIN OUR REACH IF WE JUST ALLOW DIPLOMACY THE SPACE IT NEEDS TO GET THERE.
BECAUSE I DON'T THINK ANY ALTERNATIVE TO DIPLOMACY IS GOING TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.
>> DEXTER, I'M FASCINATED BY, YOU KNOW, BY TWO ISSUES THERE.
ONE, HE SAID IF WE WOULD ALLOW DIPLOMACY TO REACH ITS NATURAL CONCLUSION.
AND THE OTHER IS A COMMENT THAT YOU HAVE IN YOUR ARTICLE, WHERE YOU TALK TO A FRIEND OF JARED KUSHNER'S WHO SAYS HE IS A LOVELY GUY, BUT HE IS WAY OUT OF, YOU KNOW, OUT OF HIS DEPTH.
SO WHICH IS IT?
DOES JARED DISPARAGE THE IDEA OF TRADITIONAL DIPLOMACY OR DOES HE NOT KNOW WHAT IT ACTUALLY TAKES?
>> WELL, I THINK BOTH OF THOSE THING --I THINK BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE IN THIS CASE, UNFORTUNATELY.
SO, AGAIN --I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE IN THE IRAN NEGOTIATIONS.
TYPICALLY, HISTORICALLY, AGAIN, THESE THINGS ARE HARD.
THEY'RE REALLY HARD.
IT'S LIKE THE IRANIANS PROPOSE SOMETHING.
WHAT ON EARTH DOES THIS MEAN?
IS IT GOOD?
IS IT BAD?
ARE THEY TRYING TO TRICK US.
YOU'VE GOT A TEAM OF TECHNICAL ADVISERS WITH YOU, LIKE PHYSICISTS AND GUYS WHO DO NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT, FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, FROM THE CIA.
WITKOFF AND KUSHNER, WHO WERE DOING THE NEGOTIATIONS, THEY DIDN'T BRING ANY TECHNICAL ADVISERS.
THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY.
SO AS I WAS TOLD, THEY LITERALLY JUST WERE LOOKING AT THE IRANIAN PROPOSAL SAND SAYING HUH.
AND AT ONE POINT, THEY TURNED TO THE HEAD OF THE INTERNATIONAL ATOMIC ENERGY AGENCY, RAFAEL GROSSI AND SAID CAN YOU BE OUR TECHNICAL ADVISER?
AND GROSSI APPARENTLY SAID THAT'S NOT MY ROLE.
BUT THAT'S --I THINK THAT'S THE DANGER HERE IS THAT --IS THAT IN DISPARAGING DIPLOMACY, WHICH IS EASY ENOUGH TO DO, YOU'RE DISCOUNTING KIND OF THE VALUE OF IT AND HOW HARD IT IS.
BECAUSE IT'S HARD STUFF.
AND AGAIN, IF IT WERE EASY, LIKE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN, WE WOULD HAVE SOLVED IT BY NOW.
>> AND DO YOU THINK THERE WERE NO TECHNICAL ADVISERS BECAUSE OF THE COMPLETE EVISCERATION OF THOSE TECHNICAL --THE TECHNICAL BENCH, SO TO SPEAK IN THE DIPLOMATIC PROCESS, WHETHER THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND ELSEWHERE, OR JUST BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T FEEL THE NECESSITY?
DID ANYBODY SPEAK TO YOU ABOUT THAT?
>> YEAH.
I THINK IT'S MORE THAT --THERE ARE TECHNICAL ADVISERS.
THEY'RE AVAILABLE.
IN FACT, WHEN WE SPOKE TO -- >> OKAY.
>> TO JARED AND TO WITKOFF, THEY SAID OH, NO WE HAD PEOPLE IN THE ROOM.
BUT EVERYBODY ELSE WHO WAS IN THE ROOM TOLD ME THEY HAD NO ONE.
AND THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE ASSIGNED TO THOSE NEGOTIATIONS WHO WERE PREPARED TO HELP.
AND THEY DIDN'T BRING THEM.
AND SO THAT --YOU KNOW, THAT'S --THAT'S INDICATIVE, I THINK, OF THE ATTITUDE THAT JARED AND STEVE WITKOFF HAVE BROUGHT TO THESE --HAVE BROUGHT TO DIPLOMACY, WHICH IS LIKE LOOK, THIS STUFF ISN'T THAT HARD.
IT'S REALLY ABOUT BEING PRAGMATIC AND IT'S LIKE A REAL ESTATE DEAL.
UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S NOT LIKE A REAL ESTATE DEAL.
IT'S A LOT TOUGHER THAN THAT.
>> YEAH.
AND CERTAINLY NOR IS RUSSIA-UKRAINE LIKE A REAL ESTATE DEAL.
AND I THINK I'M CORRECT IN SAYING THAT JARED KUSHNER AND STEVE WITKOFF, THE PRESIDENT'S EMISSARIES HAVE VISITED PUTIN SEVERAL TIMES, IT'S LIKE EIGHT OR SOMETHING, MAYBE A LITTLE MORE, AND ONLY ONCE, AND THAT WAS JUST RECENTLY, HAVE THEY BEEN TO KYIV.
AND YOU HAVE SAID, AND ACTUALLY WITKOFF I THINK HAS SORT OF SAID THE SAME THING AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ADMINISTRATION AFTER HIS FIRST VISIT THERE THAT THEY BELIEVE VLADIMIR PUTIN IS, QUOTE, A GOOD GUY.
THEY GREETED PUTIN ON A RECENT TRIP LIKE AN OLD FRIEND.
THEY RODE IN A RUSSIAN LIMOUSINE RATHER THAN A U. S. EMBASSY VEHICLE.
AND THEN THEY HEADED TO KYIV.
AND HOURS AFTER THEY LEFT, PUTIN RESUMED BOMBING.
SO WHAT ABOUT THE BIG PICTURE, THEN?
WHAT ABOUT AMERICAN INTERESTS, WESTERN INTERESTS, THE VALUE OF DEMOCRACY AND BASICALLY, THE WESTERN WORLD ORDER WHICH THE U. S. HAS DONE SO MUCH TO LEAD?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S -- THAT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION OF ALL.
I THINK IT STARTS AT THE TOP, WHICH IS PRESIDENT TRUMP.
AND, YOU KNOW, HE'S MADE IT PRETTY CLEAR HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT ALL THAT STADIUM.
STUFF.
HE DOES SAY THAT HE WANTS TO END THE WAR IN UKRAINE.
HE DOES.
AND I THINK HE IS SINCERE ABOUT THAT.
BUT I THINK THE APPROACH THAT THEY'VE TAKEN, AS YOU POINTED OUT, HAS BEEN PRETTY STRANGE.
AND I SAY THAT CHARITABLY.
THAT THEY'VE GONE --I THINK IT WAS MOSTLY WITKOFF, ALMOST ENTIRELY WITKOFF DOING THE NEGOTIATIONS IN THE BEGINNING.
BUT HE WENT TO PUTIN AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
HOW CAN WE HELP YOU?
AND ON ONE OCCASION AT LEAST HE CAME BACK AND BASICALLY, I'M QUOTING MARCO RUBIO, A MEMBER OF THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE WHO SAID IT WAS PUTIN'S WISH LIST.
I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT THEY CAME HOME WITH.
SO THEIR APPROACH TO THE NEGOTIATIONS WITH --TO END THE RUSSIAN-UKRAINE WAR HAVE BEEN STRANGE.
AND TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, I THINK THAT THE LAST THING THAT SEEMS TO BE ON THEIR MIND IS THAT UKRAINE IS A WESTERN DEMOCRACY AND A FRIEND WITH SHARED VALUES.
>> RIGHT.
LAST QUESTION, WE'VE ONLY GOT ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT.
YOU, AGAIN, IT'S CALLED "THE DOLLAR DIPLOMACY. "
YOU REPORT THAT IN UKRAINE, A CLASSIFIED INTELLIGENCE REPORT FROM THE EUROPEAN INTELLIGENCE AGENCY SAYS THAT TRUMP AND PEOPLE AROUND HIM HAVE DISCUSSED SEVERAL POTENTIAL CONTRACTS IN RUSSIA READY TO GO ONCE PEACE IS AGREED IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
KUSHNER'S RAISED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FROM SOVEREIGN FUNDS ON THE ARAB STATES WHO INVESTED IN AFFINITY, WHICH IS HIS VENTURE CAPITALIST.
YOU TALKED TO A FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL, AN ETHICS LAWYER WHO TOLD YOU HE IS PLAGUED WITH CONFLICTS OF INTERESTS, BUT IS TO FURTHER THE INTERESTS OF HIS INVESTORS.
JUST TO CONCLUDE, WHERE DOES THIS PATH LEAD IN TRYING TO RESOLVE THE FOREVER WAR, INCLUDING THE IRAN ONE AND THE ISRAEL ONE THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO END WITH THE PALESTINIANS OR THE NEIGHBORING STATES?
IN 30 SECONDS, DEXTER.
>> WELL, WE GOT END THOSE WARS.
BUT I'D SAY IN THE CASE OF JARED KUSHNER, I'D SAY OKAY, FINE, GOOD.
BUT WHO ARE YOU WORKING FOR?
ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE MONEY OR ARE YOU A DIPLOMAT?
AND IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO SEPARATE THOSE.
>> WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
AND DEFINITELY I'M GOING TRY TO GET HIM ON TO TALK ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE HE DOES HAVE HIS OWN VIEWS, AS WE'VE PUT TO YOU.
AND I THINK THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY CAN GET STUFF DONE.
BUT IT'S SO INTERESTING TO HEAR YOU LAY THINGS OUT THE WAY YOU HAVE.
THANK YOU, DEXTER FILKINS.
>> THANK YOU.
> >> NOW, 1.
6 MILLION, THAT IS THE NUMBER OF IMAGES A SINGULAR FLOCK SURVEILLANCE CAMERA CAPTURED IN JUST 21 DAYS.
THIS COMPANY IS WELL-KNOWN IN THE UNITED STATES AND HAS BECOME A SOURCE OF CONSIDERABLE CONTROVERSY.
ACCORDING TO AN INVESTIGATION BY THE INDEPENDENT AMERICAN NEWS PUBLICATION 404 MEDIA, THE OUTLET, IN ASSOCIATION WITH A GROUP OF HACKER, BREACHED THE FLOCK SYSTEM BY SIMPLY RIPPING DOWN THE CAMERA FROM ABOVE THE ROADWAY, AND THEY GAINED ACCESS TO VAST AMOUNTS OF SENSITIVE INFORMATION LIKE THAT.
THEY UNCOVERED SOMETHING FAR MORE SINISTER ABOUT WHAT THE CAMERAS CAN BE USED FOR.
JASON KOEBLER JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO EXPLAIN THE RISKS OF THIS TECHNOLOGY AND HOW PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING BACK NOW.
>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.
JASON KOEBLER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
YOU AND 404 MEDIA HAVE BEEN REPORTING ON FLOCK CAMERAS FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS NOW, REALLY TECHNICALLY FOR YEARS.
MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO BE FAMILIAR WITH FLOCK CAMERAS, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN DRIVING BY THEM.
OR LIVING IN COMMUNITIES WITH THEM.
JUST GIVE US A BREAKDOWN OF WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO.
>> YEAH, SO FLOCK IS A SURVEILLANCE COMPANY THAT SELLS SEVERAL DIFFERENT TYPES OF CAMERAS.
THEY ARE MOST FAMOUS FOR AUTOMATED LICENSE PLATE READER CAMERAS WHICH ARE CALLED ALPRs IN THE BUSINESS.
AND WHAT THESE ALPR CAMERAS DO IS THEY TAKE A PHOTO OF CARS AS THEY DRIVE BY.
FLOCK WAS FOUNDED IN GEORGIA AND STARTED IN A FEW DOZEN TOWNS, BUT OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, IT'S EXPANDED TO BE IN 40% OF TOWNS IN THE UNITED STATES.
SO MORE THAN 10,000 CITIES.
AND WHAT MAKES FLOCK DIFFERENT IS THEY HAVE CREATED THIS NETWORK OF AUTOMATED LICENSE PLATE READER CAMERAS.
SO THIS IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT'S BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME.
BUT WHAT FLOCK HAS DONE IS THEY NETWORKED THEM TOGETHER.
SO IF A COP HAD ACCESS TO THIS TYPE OF CAMERA IN THE PAST, THEY MAY BE ABLE TO SEARCH FOR A STOLEN CAR OR A MISSING CHILD BY SEARCHING THE FIVE OR SEVEN CAMERAS THAT THEY HAVE IN THEIR TOWN.
WHAT FLOCK HAS DONE HAS ALLOWED THEM TO SEARCH FOR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CAMERAS ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.
THEY CAN SEARCH ONE TOWN OVER.
THEY CAN SEARCH ACROSS AN ENTIRE STATE OR THEY CAN SEARCH THE ENTIRE NATIONAL NETWORK.
SO RIGHT NOW THE BIG DEBATE IS SORT OF DO WE WANT THIS TECHNOLOGY IN OUR TOWNS?
AND IF SO, WHAT GUARDRAILS SHOULD THERE BE.
>> OKAY.
I WANT TO GET INTO SOME OF THOSE CASES IN A LITTLE BIT HERE.
YOU KNOW, I CAN SEE THE RATIONALE FOR HOW THE COMPANY STARTED.
IT WAS STARTED BY AN ENGINEER NAMED GARRETT LANGLEY, AND HE COULDN'T GET THE POLICE TO ACT AFTER BREAK-INS IN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD, RIGHT.
AND ONE OF THE PITCHES THAT FLOCK OFTEN MAKES TO LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES AND LAW ENFORCEMENT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU WANT TO PUT OUT AN AMBER ALERT OR A SILVER ALERT.
SO WE CAN'T JUST LIMIT IT TO ONE PARTICULAR JURISDICTION IF THAT CAR CROSSES A MUNICIPALITY OR STATE LINE, YOU STILL WANT TO BE ABLE TO TRACK THAT CAR.
AND WHAT YOU'RE POINTING OUT IS THAT VERY CAPABILITY IS BEING ABUSED.
>> YEAH.
I THINK THE TRICKY THING IS THAT WE ARE A VERY DIVERSE COUNTRY POLITICALLY AND ALSO VERY LARGE COMPANY.
AND THIS TECHNOLOGY IS BEING SOLD TO LOCAL POLICE, AND THERE ARE VERY FEW GUARDRAILS ON IT.
THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT TO GET A WARRANT TO SEARCH THE SYSTEM.
SO YOU HAVE ESSENTIALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POLICE OFFICERS WHO CAN LOG INTO THIS SEARCH ENGINE FOR VEHICLES, AND THEY ARE USING IT TO FIND MISSING CHILDREN.
THAT IS TRUE.
BUT THEN YOU ALSO HAVE COPS WHO ARE THINKING OH, WELL, MY WIFE, WHAT WAS SHE UP TO YESTERDAY?
AND THEY ARE TYPING THEIR LICENSE PLATE IN AND SEARCHING THAT.
AND THERE HAS BEEN INSTANCES OF COPS WHO HAVE DONE THIS HUNDREDS OF TIMES OVER THE COURSE OF MONTHS JUST SORT OF FOLLOWING THE SAME PERSON OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITH NO LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSE WHATSOEVER.
YOU HAVE CITIES THAT SIGNED UP FOR THIS THINKING IT WAS GOING PRIMARILY BE USED FOR TO FIND MISSING CHILDREN, LEARNING THAT IT HAS BEEN USED TO SURVEIL PROTESTERS BY PEOPLE SEVERAL TOWNS AWAY.
AND SO I THINK LIKE THROUGHOUT MUCH OF MY REPORTING WHAT I'VE LEARNED IS WHEN THERE ARE THESE ABUSES, I CALL UP SOME OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT HAVE HAD THEIR CAMERAS SEARCHED, AND A LOT OF THEM SORT OF DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING AT ALL.
THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE NETWORK EFFECTS.
LIKE THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY COULD SEARCH OTHER JURISDICTIONS' CAMERAS, BUT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR OWN CAMERAS WERE BEING SEARCHED.
AND A LOT OF CITIES SIGNED UP FOR THIS TECHNOLOGY MAYBE NOT FULLY UNDERSTANDING THAT.
AND SO THESE CASES OF ABUSE HAVE COME OUT.
AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE LIVING IN THESE TOWNS SAYING IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE ACTUALLY WANT.
>> SO GIVE ME A RANGE OR AN UNDERSTANDING OF HOW NARROW OR HOW BROAD A SEARCH TERM CAN BE.
HOW GOOD IS THE TECHNOLOGY?
AND HOW SEARCHABLE IS THIS DATABASE?
>> YEAH, THE MAIN TYPES OF SEARCHES ARE FOR SPECIFIC LICENSE PLATES.
THAT IS HOW FLOCK'S STARTED.
IT IS AN AUTOMATIC LICENSE PLATE READER.
SO YOU TYPE IN A SPECIFIC LICENSE PLATE, AND IT CAN SHOW A COP WHERE THAT PERSON HAS BEEN EITHER OVER THE LAST 30 OR LAST SEVEN DAYS.
ANY TIME THAT VEHICLE HAS DRIVEN PAST ONE OF THESE CAMERAS, WHICH ARE ON EITHER LIGHT POLES OR ON INDIVIDUAL POLES AT INTERSECTIONS.
BUT FLOCK ALSO HAS A SYSTEM CALLED FREE FORM SEARCH THAT ALLOWS POLICE TO TYPE --USE IT ESSENTIALLY AS A GOOGLE-LIKE SYSTEM.
SO YOU CAN TYPE BLACK SUV.
YOU CAN TYPE WOMAN WITH HOODIE.
YOU CAN TYPE MAN WALKING DOG.
AND THE SYSTEM AND ITS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE WILL PULL UP THOSE SEARCH RESULTS.
AND SOME OF THESE CASES OF ABUSE HAVE HAPPENED BECAUSE OF ESSENTIALLY FAULTY SEARCHES.
THERE IS A WOMAN IN FLORIDA WHO IS DRIVING A BLACK SUV.
THERE WAS A HIT-AND-RUN ACCIDENT THAT KILLED THREE PEOPLE IN AN AREA THAT SHE WAS DRIVING.
THERE WAS A BLACK SUV REPORTED.
THE COPS SHOWED UP AT THIS WOMAN'S HOUSE AND ARRESTED HER.
SHE SPENT 13 DAYS IN PRISON.
THERE WAS NOT A SCRATCH ON HER CAR.
IT WAS THE WRONG VEHICLE.
BUT BECAUSE THE FLOCK SYSTEM DETECTED HER BEING NEAR THE SITE OF THIS ACCIDENT, COPS ASSUMED THAT IT WAS HER VEHICLE INVOLVED AND ONLY LATER DID THEY FIGURE OUT IT WAS A DIFFERENT BLACK SUV.
>> SO THE TECHNOLOGY LED HER TO BE GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT.
>> WELL, WHAT FLOCK HAS BEEN SAYING IS THAT THESE TYPES OF MISTAKES ARE A RESULT OF COPS NOT USING THE SYSTEM CORRECTLY.
LOS ANGELES, FOR EXAMPLE, ENDED ITS CONTRACT WITH FLOCK, THE LAPD, BECAUSE THEY FOUND THAT THEY WERE REGULARLY PULLING OVER CARS THAT WERE REPORTED STOLEN, BUT THEY WERE ESSENTIALLY PULLING OVER INNOCENT PEOPLE.
AND WHAT WAS HAPPENING THERE WAS A CAR WAS REPORTED STOLEN.
IT WOULD BE RECOVERED, BUT THEN IN SOME POLICE DATABASE, BECAUSE YOU HAVE VARIOUS DATABASES TALKING TO EACH OTHER, IN SOME DATABASE, THAT CASE WOULD NEVER BE CLEARED.
SO THE CAR WOULD STILL BE SHOWN AS STOLEN MONTHS OR WEEKS LATER A COP WOULD PULL OVER THAT PERSON AND EXPECT TO FIND A CRIMINAL WHO HAD STOLEN A CAR, AND THEY FOUND THE OWNER OF THE VEHICLE.
THIS HAS HAPPENED HUNDREDS OF TIMES, ACCORDING TO AN INSPECTORS GENERAL REPORT IN LOS ANGELES.
SO THIS IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT I DO THINK HOLDS PROMISE, BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN DEPLOYED IN A HUGE WAY ALL ACROSS THE UNITED STATES AND WE'RE KIND OF LEARNING THE LIMITS OF THE TECHNOLOGY AS WELL AS THE WAYS THAT IT CAN BE ABUSED.
>> YOUR REPORTING IS BASED ON READING HUNDREDS OF AUDIT LOGS SO THAT EVERY TIME ONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENS, THERE IS A PUBLIC RECORD OF IT.
AND YOU WERE ABLE TO SEARCH THROUGH, YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES AT 404 WERE ABLE TO SEARCH THROUGH ALL THESE.
HOW MANY OF THESE AUTO REPORTS ARE GENERATED?
AND WERE YOU ABLE TO -- ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME?
OR ARE YOU JUST BASING YOUR REPORTING ON THE BATCHES THAT YOU SEE?
>> YEAH, THIS HAS BEEN A REALLY EXCITING AND INTERESTING REPORTING PROJECT FOR US BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT FLOCK WORKS.
WE'RE ESSENTIALLY LEARNING WHAT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY IS USING FLOCK FOR.
BECAUSE EACH TIME ANY POLICE OFFICER IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY SEARCHES THIS SYSTEM, IT VERY OFTEN WILL HIT THOUSANDS OF CAMERAS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
AND SO WE WERE ABLE TO LEARN FROM POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN ILLINOIS THAT POLICE OFFICERS IN SOUTH CAROLINA WERE SEARCHING THEIR CAMERAS FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.
WE WERE ABLE TO LEARN FROM THOSE SAME POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT POLICE OFFICERS IN CALIFORNIA WERE SURVEILLING THE NO KINGS PROTESTERS.
TO GIVE A SENSE OF THE SCALE, THERE ARE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SEARCHES A DAY.
ONE OF THESE AUDIT LOGS IS ESSENTIALLY AN EXCEL SPREADSHEET THAT JUST GOES ON FOREVER.
IT FEELS LIKE AN ENDLESS SCROLL.
AND THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN IT IS THE TIME OF THE SEARCH, THE NUMBER OF NETWORKS SEARCHED, MEANING THE NUMBER OF TOWNS THAT WERE SEARCHED, THE OVERALL NUMBER OF CAMERAS THAT WERE SEARCHED, WHICH IN MANY CASES IS 80,000 AND 100,000.
AND THEN CRUCIALLY, THE POLICE NEED TO PUT A REASON FOR PERFORMING THE SEARCH.
AND VERY OFTEN THAT REASON TAB WILL SAY "STOLEN VEHICLE" OR "DRUG TRAFFICKING INVESTIGATION" OR "MISSING PERSON REPORT. "
BUT VERY OFTEN IT WILL JUST SAY SOMETHING LIKE INVESTIGATION OR TEST OR EXAMPLE.
AND THEN WE HAVE FOUND THESE CASES WHERE IT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE LOITERING OR PROTESTS OR IN ONE CASE IN TEXAS, WE FOUND ONE WHERE THEY WERE SEARCHING FOR A WOMAN WHO HAD AN ABORTION.
LIKE THAT WAS SPECIFICALLY SORT OF SPELLED OUT.
>> SO HOW HAVE I. C. E. OFFICER BEEN USING THE SYSTEM?
>> YEAH, THIS ONE IS A LITTLE BIT COMPLICATED BECAUSE I. C. E. DOES NOT HAVE A FORMAL CONTRACT WITH FLOCK.
THE WAY THAT THEY HAVE ACCESSED FLOCK DATA IS THROUGH A PROGRAM CALLED 287-G WHICH ALLOWS LOCAL POLICE TO DO IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT.
SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THESE LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS WILL SEARCH FOR AN UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT AS PART OF THIS PARTNERSHIP.
AND SO THEN ON THE FLOCK AUDIT REPORTS, IT WILL SHOW THAT A TOWN OR CITY IN TEXAS OR TENNESSEE OR SOUTH CAROLINA HAS SEARCHED FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT OR I. C. E. INVESTIGATION OR HS iHOME LAND SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS INVESTIGATION.
AND IT WILL SAY IMMIGRATION, BUT THEN WHEN YOU TALK TO THE POLICE THERE, THEY'LL SAY OH, THIS WAS PART OF OUR 287-G PROGRAM.
THIS WAS PART OF OUR TASK FORCE WITH I. C. E. AND SO FLOCK IS NOT WORKING DIRECTLY WITH I. C. E. , BUT THROUGH OUR REPORTING THROUGH THESE AUDIT LOGS, WE WERE ABLE TO SHOW THERE HAVE BEEN HUNDREDS OF SEARCHES FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.
FLOCK HAS NOT REALLY PUT A STOP TO THIS.
THERE HAS BEEN QUITE A BIT OF BACKLASH.
BUT THESE TYPES OF SEARCHES HAVE CONTINUED.
>> FLOCK PUT OUT A STATEMENT ABOUT THIS SAYING FLOCK DOES NOT WORK WITH U. S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT.
COMMUNITIES CONTROL FEDERAL DATA ACCESS.
ICE DOES NOT HAVE DIRECT ACCESS TO FLOCK CAMERA SYSTEMS OR DATA UNLESS THE AGENCIES THAT CONTROL THEIR DATA EXPRESSLY AND DELIBERATELY ALLOW IT.
YOU ALSO POINT OUT THAT IT'S NOT JUST ONE SPECIFIC TYPE OF CAMERA THAT FLOCK IS SELLING.
THEY HAVE A SUITE OF DIFFERENT ONES.
AND ONE THAT YOU REPORTED ABOUT IS CALLED A CONDOR CAMERA.
WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT IT?
>> SO CONDOR IS KILLED A PAN--TILT-ZOOM CAMERA.
IT'S BASICALLY A HIGH DEFINITION VIDEO CAMERA THAT IS GENERALLY INTENDED TO TRACK PEOPLE, NOT VEHICLES.
AND THESE ARE THE CAMERAS THAT FLOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE INTERNET.
SO IN ORDER TO TEST THIS, WE BASICALLY FOUND A FEW PLACES WHERE THESE CAMERAS WERE STATIONED.
I WENT UP TO BAKERSFIELD, CALIFORNIA, AND WALKED MY DOG PAST SOME OF THESE CAMERAS.
AND THE AI WITHIN THESE CAMERAS WOULD ACTUALLY TRACK ME AS I WAS KIND OF WALKING ACROSS THIS INTERSECTION.
THESE ARE PLACED OFTEN ON BIKE PATHS AT PLAYGROUNDS, THINGS LIKE THIS.
AND IT FEEDS INTO THIS LARGER SYSTEM THAT FLOCK HAS CALLED FLOCK OS, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY A PIECE OF SOFTWARE THAT COMBINES THESE TYPE OF CAMERAS, OTHER CAMERAS THAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS MIGHT OPERATE, WHETHER THEY BE CCTV CAMERAS, 911 SYSTEMS, THESE ALPR CAMERAS.
AND THEY HAVE 30, 40 DIFFERENT VIDEO FEEDS, YOU KNOW, AVAILABLE TO THEM AT ANY TIME.
>> IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS, WE'VE SEEN CASES WHERE PEOPLE AND GROUPS OF PEOPLE ARE DISMANTLING, YOU CAN CALL IT VANDALISM, YOU CAN CALL IT PRIVACY PROTECTION, BUT THEY'RE TAKING THESE CAMERAS DOWN.
>> YEAH.
SO THE PUSHBACK TO FLOCK HAS DEFINITELY BEEN TWO-PRONGED.
THERE IS THE POLITICAL PUSHBACK WHERE PEOPLE ARE SHOWING UP AT CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS AND SAYING WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT THESE CAMERAS WERE IN OUR TOWN, AND WE WANT TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE CONTRACT.
THAT'S BEEN THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PUSHBACK.
BUT THEN AS YOU SAID, THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE SHOT FLOCK CAMERAS WITH SHOTGUNS.
THERE IS PEOPLE WHO HAVE SPRAYED EXPANDING FOAM AND SPRAY PAINT ON THE LENSES OF THE CAMERAS.
I SAW AN GRAHAM VIDEO OF SOMEONE WHO CUT A FLOCK CAMERA DOWN AND FED IT TO AN ALLIGATOR IN FLORIDA.
SO THIS TYPE OF THING HAS BEEN HAPPENING ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.
WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO DOCUMENT THIS BY TRACKING LOCAL NEWS REPORTS AND THINGS LIKE THIS.
AND I THINK THIS IS A TYPE OF EXTREME VANDALISM.
IT'S HARD TO PUT A PIN ON WHO IS DOING THIS BECAUSE THE OPPOSITION TO FLOCK SEEMS TO BE --WELL, IT'S DEFINITELY BIPARTISAN.
IT'S ONE OF THE FEW THINGS THAT REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS SEEM TO AGREE ON.
AND THEY SEEM TO OPPOSE THIS TECHNOLOGY FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.
>> I WONDER, IS THIS A PROBLEM WITH TECHNOLOGY OR IS THIS A PROBLEM WITH KIND OF GENERICALLY PEOPLE AND HOW WE USE AND ABUSE TECHNOLOGY?
>> YEAH, IT IS A HUMAN PROBLEM.
THE TECHNOLOGY ENABLES THIS TYPE OF ABUSE OR MAKES IT A LOT EASIER TO DO.
THE TECHNOLOGY ALSO MAKES IT A BIT EASIER TO CATCH.
FLOCK, TO ITS CREDIT, HAS THESE AUDITING SYSTEMS THAT ALLOWS A POLICE DEPARTMENT TO GO IN AND SEE AN OFFICER'S SEARCH HISTORY, FOR EXAMPLE.
IN RESPONSE TO OUR REPORTING AND REPORTING BY "THE WASHINGTON POST" AND OTHER JOURNALISTS, FLOCK HAS SORT OF DONE SOME PROACTIVE FLAGGING OF ANOMALOUS SEARCHES, MEANING IF ITS SYSTEM DETECTS THE COPS SEARCHING THE SAME LICENSE PLATE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, YOU KNOW, IT WILL AUTOMATICALLY FLAG THAT AND SAY IS THIS LEGITIMATE INVESTIGATION OR IS THIS A POLICE OFFICER ABUSING THE SYSTEM AND A SUPERVISOR NEEDS TO THEN GO IN AND SORT OF INVESTIGATE WHAT'S GOING ON THERE.
I DO THINK THAT THE BACKLASH TO FLOCK IS BASED ON SOME OF THE ABUSES THAT WE'VE SEEN.
BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S PART OF A BROADER ANXIETY ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND ABOUT SURVEILLANCE IN GENERAL.
>> THERE ARE SOME LEGAL CHALLENGES IN DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES AS WELL.
WHAT ARE THE PLAINTIFFS BASICALLY ARGUING?
>> SO PLAINTIFFS ARE BASICALLY ARGUING THIS IS A VIOLATION OF THEIR FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS.
THERE IS A CASE IN NORFOLK, VIRGINIA WHERE ESSENTIALLY THIS MAN IS ARGUING THAT HE CAN'T LEAVE HIS HOME WITHOUT DRIVING BY ONE OF THESE CAMERAS, AND THEN THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION AND THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION IS SUING THE CITY OF SAN JOSE ON MUCH THE SAME GROUNDS, ARGUING THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY VIOLATES THE FOURTH AMENDMENT.
SO FAR COURTS HAVE ARGUED THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO PRIVACY IN PUBLIC.
MOST OF THESE CAMERAS ARE ON, YOU KNOW, PUBLIC INTERSECTIONS, THAT SORT OF THING.
BUT THE ARGUMENT THAT IS BEING MADE IS THAT THE NETWORKING TOGETHER OF ALL THESE CAMERAS VIOLATES THE FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS TO PRIVACY.
THAT IT IS TRUE THAT A POLICE OFFICER CAN SIT ON A STREET CORNER AND TAKE A PHOTOGRAPH OF YOUR LICENSE PLATE AND THERE IS NO PROBLEM THERE.
BUT SHOULD A COMPANY BE ABLE TO DO THIS PERSISTENTLY OVER TIME HAVE A DATABASE OF IT AND SHOULD COPS BE ABLE TO QUERY THAT DATABASE ANY TIME THAT THEY WANT WITHOUT A WARRANT.
>> ON THE FLOCK SITE, THE CEO HAS A STATEMENT.
PART OF IT IS THE GOAL ISN'T TO MAXIMIZE SAFETY AT THE EXPENSE OF PRIVACY.
THE GOAL IS TO MAXIMIZE BOTH, AND THAT IT SHOULD HELP INVESTIGATORS SOLVE CRIMES FASTER THAT MAKE AUDIT TRAILS EASIER TO DETECT MISUSE.
I WONDER, CONSIDERING YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST OUTLETS TO FINDING THIS INFORMATION AND DOING THIS SET OF STORIES, WHAT'S THE RESPONSE FROM FLOCK BEN LIKE TO YOUR REPORTING?
>> I WOULD SAY IT'S BEEN A BIT ADVERSARIAL.
GARRETT LANGLEY, THE CEO DID A VIDEO INTERVIEW LAST YEAR WITH FORBES, FOR EXAMPLE, AND HE CALLED US ACTIVIST JOURNALISTS.
HE AT THE TIME CALLED THE DEFLOCK MOVEMENT, WHICH IS THE MOVEMENT TO GET RID OF FLOCK, CALLED THEM TERRORISTS.
HE SINCE APOLOGIZED FOR THOSE REMARKS.
I THINK FLOCK IS A COMPANY THAT EXPANDED VERY RAPIDLY, AND IT'S A COMPANY THAT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE CITIES AND TOWNS THAT BOUGHT THIS TECHNOLOGY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE BUYING.
WE KNOW THAT'S THE CASE BECAUSE DOZENS OF TOWNS HAVE SINCE CANCELED THEIR CONTRACTS WITH FLOCK SAYING THIS IS NOT WHAT WE BARGAINED FOR.
I THINK THAT FLOCK HAS MADE SOME REFORMS IN RESPONSE TO OUR REPORTING, AND I THINK THAT IT'S GOOD THAT THEY'VE MADE THOSE REFORMS.
BUT I THINK A LOT OF THE ABUSES WE'VE SEEN HAVE BEEN A RESULT OF THIS COMPANY EXPANDING SO RAPIDLY WITHOUT PREDICTING THE TYPES OF WAYS THAT IT'S BEEN ABUSED.
AND I THINK THAT PROBABLY YOU'D LIKE TO SEE A BIT MORE CARE, YOU KNOW, AND MAYBE FORETHOUGHT INTO HOW A NETWORK LIKE THIS COULD BE ABUSED SO THAT THE PROTECTIONS ARE MORE PROACTIVE RATHER THAN REACTIVE.
>> CO-FOUNDER OF 404 MEDIA JASON KOEBLER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
> >> AND FINALLY, TODAY MARKS FOUR YEARS SINCE THE DEATH OF MAHSA AMINI, WHO WAS JUST 22 WHEN SHE DIED IN CUSTODY AFTER BEING DETAINED BY IRAN'S MORALITY POLICE.
HER ALLEGED CRIME, NOT ABIDING BY THE COUNTRY'S MANDATORY HIJAB LAW.
HER NAME BECAME A RALLYING CRY FOR WOMEN ACROSS IRAN, WITH THOUSANDS GATHERING TO TAKE PART IN THE WOMEN LIFE FREEDOM PROTEST MOVEMENT.
DESPITE THE GOVERNMENT'S BRUTAL CRACKDOWN ON THOSE DEMONSTRATIONS, DEFIANCE STILL LIVES ON FOUR YEARS LATER.
MORE IRANIAN WOMEN ARE PUSHING BACK AGAINST THE RESTRICTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN FORCED UPON THEM, SINGING, DANCING, AND WEARING WHAT THEY WANT.
EVERYDAY ACTS OF DEFIANCE OF ACTS BY WOMEN DETERMINED TO BE FREE.
NARGES MOHAMMADI IS ONE OF THE GLOBAL SYMBOLS OF THE IRANIAN WOMEN'S MOVEMENT.
FOR HER CAMPAIGNING, SHE HAS PAID A HEAVY PRICE, INCLUDING BRUTAL JAIL TERMS.
BUT TODAY IN CONVERSATION WITH CORRESPONDENT JOMANA KARACHI, SHE PAYS TRIBUTE TO EVERYTHING THE BRAVE WOMEN OF IRAN HAVE ACHIEVED.
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>> Translator: SOME OF OUR GREATEST AND MOST ENDURING ACHIEVEMENTS HAVE COME FROM WOMEN LIFE FREEDOM MOVEMENT.
ALTHOUGH RIGHT NOW PEOPLE ARE NOT TAKING TO THE STREETS IN THE NAME OF WOMEN LIFE FREEDOM MOVEMENT AND CHANTING SLOGANS, IN MY VIEW, PEOPLE HAVE IN FACT TAKEN OVER THE STREETS THROUGH THE ACHIEVEMENT OF WOMAN LIFE FREEDOM.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE STREETS OF TEHRAN, AND EVEN IN THE CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, YOU CAN SEE HOW COURAGEOUSLY WOMEN ARE STANDING TALL IN STREETS.
DESPITE THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS REPRESSING THEM, BY EVERY POSSIBLE MEANS IN ORDER TO PUSH THEM BACK AND IMPOSE COMPULSORY HIJAB, THEY RESIST.
I THINK THROUGH THE FREEDOM LIFE MOVEMENT, WE WERE ABLE TO CREATE THE POWER TO THE PROTESTER AND PRESENT TO IT THE WORLD.
THAT IS SOMEONE WHO HAD COME OUT INTO THE STREETS TO PROTEST WOULD BE BEATEN, KILLED, IMPRISONED, AND EXECUTED.
BUT THEY HAD A SENSE OF POWER, A SENSE OF LEGITIMACY WHICH FORCED THE GOVERNMENT TO RETREAT.
IN MY VIEW, WOMEN HAD AGENCY IN THIS MOVEMENT.
THE WOMAN LIFE FREEDOM MOVEMENT ORIGINALLY HIT WITH PEOPLE, WITH THE PEOPLE'S AWARENESS.
AND THIS IS PRECISELY THE PATH THAT IS MOVING TOWARDS DEMOCRACY.
AND I'M EXTREMELY HOPEFUL ABOUT IT.
>> MOHAMMADI IS CURRENTLY OUT ON MEDICAL FURLOW FROM PRISON, AND SHE IS RELEASING HER MEMOIR THIS WEEK.
IT IS BOUND TO BE RIVETING.
THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.
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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "
IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.