June 29, 2026

>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> NOBODY DARES TO SPEAK, NOBODY DARES TO SHOP, BECAUSE IT SOUND COULD MEAN [ INAUDIBLE ] POINT >> A RACE AGAINST TIME IN VENEZUELA.

THE REPORTER GIVES US THE DETAILS ON THE DESPERATE SEARCH AND RESCUE EFFORTS AMID THE EARTHQUAKE RUBBLE.

> >> THEN, OUR TALKS ARE BACK ON TRACK FOLLOWING THE WEEKEND OF RENEWED FIRE BETWEEN THE U. S. AND IRAN?

FORMER AMERICAN DIPLOMAT EDWARD FISHMAN TELLS ME WHERE NEGOTIATIONS STANDPOINT > >> THEY SPEND 40 MILLION, 50 MILLION, AM I SUPPOSED TO DISLIKE THEM?

I LIKE HIM VERY MUCH.

>> THE CROWN PRINCE AND THE PRESIDENT, A STRATEGIC ALLIANCE OR ONE OF PERSONAL GAIN?

A NEW DOCUMENTARY EXPLORES THE TANGLED RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN SAUDI ARABIA'S MBS AND PRESIDENT TRUMP.

FRONT-LINE CORRESPONDENT MARTIN SMITH JOINS ME POINT > >> ALSO AHEAD: >> THE LETTER AND WORD DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING OUTSIDE THE WHITE SUPREMACY OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT HAS NO MEANING FOR HIM POINT >> WHAT RICHARD PRYOR TAUGHT HIS DAUGHTER ABOUT RACE AND IDENTITY.

WE SPEAK TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT HER NEW MEMOIR, "SOMETHING WE SAID. "

> >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENTS, JIM ATTWOOD & LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDICE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

& SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM, THE STRAUS FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON & JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SHOW ANNA WARSHAW, KOO & PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I AM FILS-AIME YORK CITY IN CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

NO REPRIEVE FOR DISASTER STRUCK VENEZUELA AFTER AN AFTERSHOCK IN THE COUNTRY EARLIER TODAY POINT ALTHOUGH IT CAUSED NO FURTHER DAMAGE, IT ADDS TO THE ANGUISH VENEZUELANS HAVE BEEN FEELING SINCE LAST WEEK'S TWIN EARTHQUAKES SPRAYED MORE THAN 400 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CONFIRMED DEAD POINT MANY ARE STILL MISSING AND THOUSANDS ARE IN DIRE NEED OF HUMANITARIAN AID.

BUT AMIDST THE HEARTBREAK, SCATTERED RESCUERS HAVE OFFERED RELIEF, INCLUDING THAT OF A MOTHER AND HER SMALL BABY IN CARACAS.

>> [ CRYING ] >> 24 COUNTRIES HAVE SENT AID AND THOUSANDS OF RESCUE WORKERS ARE IN THE COUNTRY TO HELP WITH SEARCH OPERATIONS.

THE FRUSTRATIONS ARE RIGHT IN VENEZUELA OVER THE GOVERNMENT RESPONSE, AS THE RACE TIGHTENS TO SAVE THOSE STILL BURIED UNDER THE RUBBLE.

>> >> Translator: WE WANT SUPPORT, WE WANT HEAVY MACHINERY, WE WANT TO TAKE OUR FAMILY MEMBERS WITH US.

I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE IN THIS SITUATION.

THERE ALMOST NOT GOING TO LET US IN HERE ANYMORE.

THEY HAVEN'T HELPED US CLEAR THE RUBBLE.

>> THE COLLAPSING ECONOMY AND YEARS OF POLITICAL STRIFE ARE WORSENING THE CRISIS , AND WHAT IS BECOMING THE BIGGEST CHALLENGING YET FOR ACTING PRESIDENT RODRIGUEZ.

WE HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING SEARCH AND RESCUE EFFORTS IN THE CITY, HERE IS HIS REPORT.

>> RESCUE WORKERS ARE DIGGING THEIR WAY THROUGH RUBBLE AND DUST .

TRAPPED FOR DAYS UNDER A PILE OF COLLAPSED HOMES.

THE PORT CITY IS GROUND ZERO FOR THE VENEZUELAN EARTHQUAKE SEARCH AND RESCUE OPERATION.

>> THEY TRIED TO COMMUNICATE WITH THEM WITH SOUND.

THIS IS TRULY A RACE AGAINST TIME.

NOBODY DARES TO SPEAK, NOBODY DARES TO SHOUT BECAUSE IT SOUND COULD MEAN A LIFE IS SAVED.

>> THERE IS AN ELEVATOR, TOO?

>> YES.

>> IN FRONT OF THE STAIRS?

>> ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING AS THE RELATIVES OF THE PEOPLE TRAPPED INSIDE AND OTHER SURVIVORS ARE STAYING HERE, THEY ARE WAITING AND WATCHING.

IT IS AN EXCRUCIATING LIFE FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS A SEVEN-YEAR- OLD SON TRAPPED BENEATH THE RUBBLE.

HE HAS NOT SLEPT SINCE WEDNESDAY.

HE WAS OUT SINCE THE QUAKE SAID, HIS SON WAS WITH HIS GRANDMOTHER AT HOME.

>> Translator: I WILL FIND MY SON.

>> TODAY HE SAYS I KNOW I WILL.

>> IT IS NOW OR NEVER FOR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WERE STILL MISSING.

MOST EARTHQUAKE SURVIVORS ARE RESCUED WITHIN 72 HOURS.

THESE RESCUE WORKERS [ INAUDIBLE ] .

THE VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT ESTIMATES MORE THAN 12,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DISPLACED.

THEY ALL NEED A PLACE TO SLEEP AND EAT.

WE HAVE JUST ARRIVED TO A FAST FOOD --IT'S A FRIED CHICKEN RESTAURANT, BUT THEY HAVE BEEN TURNED INTO A COMMUNITY KITCHEN, BASICALLY.

ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE NOW WORKING IN A CHAIN TO BRING OUT 1500 READY MEALS.

IT'S A FRIED CHICKEN AND FRIES, BUT THAT WILL FUEL BOTH THE DISPLACED AND VOLUNTEERS THAT ARE TRYING TO HELP.

AT THIS RESTAURANT, EVERYONE LIVES IN LA GUAIRA.

EVERYONE HAS LIVED THROUGH THE DOUBLE EARTHQUAKE, BUT NOBODY WANTS TO REST.

IT'S THE STRENGTH OF THE COMMUNITY WHO REFUSES TO GIVE UP, DESPITE THEIR REALITY.

BY SUNSET, THE SEARCH STOPPED.

HIS SON WAS FOUND, ALONG WITH HIS GRANDMOTHER, UNDER THE RUBBLE.

THE LATEST VICTIM OF TRAGEDY THAT IS ALREADY TAKEN MORE THAN 1400 LIVES.

IT WILL STILL TAKE DAYS TO RECOVER THE REMAINS .

BUT THE PAIN WILL STAY FOREVER.

>> LET'S BRING IN AND STUFF AND I'LL NOW FOR MORE UPDATES FROM CARACAS, AND THERE IS A GLIMMER OF HOPE EVERY TIME ONE OF THESE THAT HAVE BEEN TRAPPED THERE FOR FIVE DAYS ARE FOUND ALIVE, INCLUDING THAT 21-YEAR-OLD MAN WHO YOU HAD BEEN REPORTING ON, BUT THAT WINDOW IS SHRINKING, AND THE AFTERSHOCKS ARE STILL BEING FELT TODAY.

JUST TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING THERE NOW, FIVE DAYS SINCE THE DOUBLE EARTHQUAKE, AND WHAT YOU ARE HEARING FROM THOSE SEARCH AND RESCUE WORKERS.

>> SURE, BIANNA.

THE WINDOW IS SHRINKING, IT HASN'T SHRUNK YET.

THAT IS WHAT THE WORKERS HERE ARE TELLING US.

WE WERE ABLE TO SPEAK WITH ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THE MEXICAN SEARCH AND RESCUE TEAM THAT IS WORKING FOR THE RUBBLE BEHIND MY BACK.

IT WAS MIGUEL ANGEL GARCIA AND HE CANNOT TO SPEAK WITH THE MEDIA TO EXPLAIN THAT EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE USING HEAVY MACHINERY AND PERHAPS THEY ARE IN THE BACKGROUND, WE CAN'T GET CLOSER AT THIS POINT, BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT OUR EXCAVATORS MAKING THEIR WAY THROUGH A PILE OF DEBRIS.

WELL, HE EXPLAINED TO US THAT THAT IS NOT A DEMOLITION, THAT IS STILL PART OF THE SEARCH AND RESCUE OPERATION, IT'S JUST THE PEOPLE WHO THEY BELIEVE MIGHT STILL BE ALIVE UNDER THAT PILE OF DEBRIS ARE ALIVE, BUT TRAPPED UNDER MAYBE SEVEN, EIGHT, NINE FLOORS OR FORMER FLOORS, STOP THE ONE ON TOP OF THE OTHER.

HE DID SAY THEY'RE USING SPECIAL TECHNIQUES USED BY THE MEXICAN EARTHQUAKE TEAM, WHICH IS RENOWNED AROUND THE WORLD FOR THEIR CAPABILITIES, TO TRY TO BUILD TUNNELS INTO THE DEBRIS, INTO THE PILE OF CONCRETE, TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THEM.

AND EVEN HERE IN CARACAS, OF COURSE IT IS A LITTLE BIT MORE NOISY THAN IT WAS YESTERDAY AT THAT LOCATION WHEN WE FOUND THE PIECE THAT YOU JUST SAW, BUT STILL, THE FEELING OF SILENCE IS ONE, BIANNA, THAT IT IS NEW FOR ME AND VENEZUELA.

I HAVE ALWAYS CONSIDERED THIS COUNTRY ONE OF THE LOUDEST AND MOST JOYFUL COUNTRIES IN LATIN AMERICA.

DESPITE THE DRAMATIC CONDITIONS OF THE COMMUNITARIAN CRISIS HERE IN THE LAST 10 YEARS, AND GET THIS EARTHQUAKE HAS REALLY MANAGED TO SILENCE VENEZUELA, WHICH IS SOMETHING PERSONALLY, I WOULD HAVE NEVER IMAGINED AS POSSIBLE.

AND SO, THE FEELING OF SILENCE, THE FEELING OF MOURNING THE GRIEF IS NOW BOILING TO THE SERVICE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE ARE FIVE DAYS INTO THIS TRAGEDY AND PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO START TO METABOLIZE ALL OF THAT PAIN THAT THIS NATION AS A WHOLE, AS A COMMUNITY HAS LIVED THROUGH.

BIANNA?

>> AND A NATURAL DISASTER LIKE THIS, OF THIS SCALE, WOULD BE A HUGE CHALLENGE FOR ANY WORLD LEADER, BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT ACTING PRESIDENT DELCY RODRIGUEZ, JUST NEWLY PUT INTO PLACE ABOUT SEVEN MONTHS AGO BY THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AFTER THE RAID SEIZING MADURO, HOW ARE VENEZUELANS RESPONDING TO HOW SHE HAS BEEN HANDLING THIS CRISIS THUS FAR?

>> OH, THE FRUSTRATION IS BUILDING UP.

I THINK THAT THE AUTHORITIES ARE DOING THEIR BEST, BUT STRUGGLING TO MANAGE THIS SITUATION.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, VENEZUELA IS A COUNTRY THAT HAS LIVED THROUGH AN AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS OR SO, SO THE STATE [ INAUDIBLE ] IS NOT TASKED TO ACT ON ITSELF.

FOR EXAMPLE, ONE THING THAT A LOT OF RESCUE WORKERS HAVE SHARED WITH US, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF FRUSTRATION, IS THERE IS A LOT OF IDLE TIMES, THERE IS A LOT OF TIME SPENT WAITING ON DECISIONS TO BE MADE OR DECISIONS TO BE COMMUNICATED.

WE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN WE FLEW IN ON FRIDAY, MY FLIGHT BOOKED TO CARACAS WAS AN HOUR AND 40 MINUTES, AND THEN WE SPENT MORE THAN TWO HOURS JUST WAITING FOR OUR LUGGAGE TO COME THROUGH AT THE AIRPORT BECAUSE THERE WAS SO MUCH AID AVAILABLE THERE TO BE MOBILIZED, BUT NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE TO GET ORGANIZED TO SOLVE THE SITUATION FROM THE GROUND UP.

THEY WERE ALL WAITING FOR INSTRUCTION FROM ABOVE.

AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS AT EVERY LAYER OF THESE STATE STRUCTURES, REALLY AFTER 10 YEARS OF A ONE-MAN GOVERNMENT THAT WAS VENEZUELA AND THERE MADURO, HE WAS THE MAN IN CHARGE OF PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING, AND NOW OF COURSE THEY HAVE TO RESPOND TO A CATASTROPHE LIKE SOMETHING THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

THEY ARE STRUGGLING WITH THAT.

THEY'RE DOING THEIR BEST, AND CLEARLY, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS COME TO HELP AND RESCUE.

THERE IS THE FEELING THAT THE WORLD HAS RESPONDED BY MOBILIZING A LOT OF RESOURCES, BUT THERE IS FRUSTRATION OVER THE SLOW PACE OF HOW THESE RESOURCES ARE COMING DOWN TO VENEZUELA, DOWN TO LA GUAIRA, THE DISASTER ZONE CREDIT YESTERDAY FOR EXAMPLE, WE WERE THERE FOR AN ENTIRE DAY, AND WE SAW AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF COLLAPSED BUILDINGS WITH RESCUE WAS THERE, GOING THROUGH, BUT WITHOUT CRANES WERE EXCAVATORS, JUST WITH A PLAGUE AND A SHOVEL.

>> YEAH, AND TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE HERE, AS WE KNOW.

IT IS NOTABLE THAT DELCY RODRIGUEZ IS ACCEPTING AID FROM EVERY COUNTRY THAT IT APPEARS TO BE OPERATING, AND THAT IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM PREVIOUS REGIMES IN VENEZUELA.

YOU THINK ABOUT MADURO, ABOUT HUGO CHAVEZ IN 1999 WHEN HE TURNED AWAY OUTSIDE HELP FROM OTHER COUNTRIES AFTER A DEVASTATING LANDSLIDE.

>> YET, THIS COUNTRY IS DIFFERENT, HOWEVER, FROM THE ONE OF 1999.

BACK THEN, VENEZUELA WAS ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST COUNTRIES IN LATIN AMERICA, NOW IT IS BY FAR THE POOREST.

I THINK THIS EARTHQUAKE HAS CHANGED ALREADY THE HISTORY OF VENEZUELA POINT LIKE FEW THINGS THAT I HAVE SEEN IT SINCE COMING HERE 10 YEARS AGO.

YESTERDAY FOR EXAMPLE, RONALD, THE GENTLEMAN THAT LOST HIS SON YESTERDAY, AND WE FILMS WITH HIM THE WHOLE DAY, HE IS A MEMBER OF THE POLICE FORCE HERE.

HE WAS OPEN ABOUT IT, HE ALLOWED US TO FILM WITH HIM, WHICH IS REALLY A FIRST, NORMALLY NOT MANY MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY APPARATUS YEAR BUT ALLOW FREE PRESS TO BE AROUND THEM.

AND THEN THE PEOPLE WHO HELPED HIM LOCATE WHAT REMAINED OF HIS SON, WHERE OF COURSE THE RESCUE WORKERS FROM FAIRFAX COUNTY, VIRGINIA, WHEN THEY FOUND HIM, THE TWO OF THEM HUGGED EACH OTHER.

SEEING A VENEZUELAN POLICE OFFICER HUGGING A U. S. AID DIRECT WORKER --OF COURSE THEY'RE NOT MILITARY, BUT A U. S. UNIFORM WAS STARS & STRIPES, IT'S SOMETHING THAT I WOULD HAVE NEVER IMAGINED POINT WE SAW YESTERDAY A CONTINGENT OF MARINES ARRIVING IN VENEZUELA, BIANNA, AND THAT IS THE HISTORY.

I LIVED HERE FOR 10 YEARS, WE WOULD ALWAYS JOKE ABOUT THE MARINES COMING TO LA GUAIRA.

THE MARINES ARRIVED IN LA GUAIRA, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, THE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE TOO DRAMATIC [ INAUDIBLE ] POINT >> IT IS JUST UNFORTUNATE THAT IT TAKES A TRAGEDY TO BRING TOGETHER SINS OF HUMANITY LIKE YOU HAVE BEEN WITNESSING.

STEFANO POZZEBAN AND VENEZUELA FOR US, THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, TALKS BETWEEN THE U. S. AND IRAN ARE REPORTEDLY BACK ON TRACK, WITH A NEGOTIATION TEAM SET TO MEET ON TUESDAY ACCORDING TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

BOTH SIDES AGREED TO STAND DOWN FOR NOW FOLLOWING A FLARE UP OF THE WEEKEND WITH STRIKES WHICH BEGAN AFTER IRAN STRUCK A CARGO SHIP THAT WAS PASSING THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ WITHOUT ITS PERMISSION.

WHO EXACTLY CONTROLS THIS CRITICAL WATERWAY IS JUST ONE OF THE MANY MAJOR ISSUES THREATENING THE FRAGILE CEASE- FIRE.

AND WITHOUT CLARITY, HOW LIKELY IS A LASTING DEAL?

EDWARD FISHMAN IS A FORMER AMERICAN TO TWO AND AUTHOR OF CHOKEPOINTS, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

EDWARD, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU HAVE SAID THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS STARTED A WAR WITH IRAN ONLY TO LEAVE IRAN HOLDING WHAT YOU CALLED "THE MOST IMPORTANT ENERGY CHOKEPOINT IN THE WORLD. "

SO, HOW DID THE STRONGEST COUNTRY ON EARTH END UP RECEIVING --END UP BEING ON THE RECEIVING END OF A CHOKE POINT THAT IT NOW CAN'T UNLOCK?

>> SO, LOOK, BIANNA, I THINK THIS IS A DIRECT RESPONSE TO THE U. S.

-ISRAELI AWARD AGAINST IRAN.

WE HAVE ALWAYS KNOWN THAT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ IS AN ESSENTIAL CHOKEPOINT FOR THE ENERGY TRADE YOU HAD 20% OF GLOBAL OIL SALES, 20% OF LIQUEFIED NATURAL GAS THAT WENT THROUGH THAT NARROW A WATERWAY BEFORE THE WAR.

I THINK THE REASON THAT YOU WANT TO NOT WEAPONIZE IT IS THAT THEY REQUIRED A STATE OF WAR.

THE WAY [ INAUDIBLE ] IS CONTROLLED FOR THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ IS THROUGH DRONE STRIKES, USING ANTI-SHIP MISSILES, AND IT IS REALLY INCONCEIVABLE, BIANNA, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN USING DRUGS AGAINST A NEUTRAL SHIPPING IF THEY WEREN'T IN A STATE OF WAR, SO I THINK THIS IS A DIRECT CONSEQUENCE OF THE U. S.

-ISRAELI WAR AGAINST IRAN, AND NOW THAT YOU WANT TO SHOW THAT POWER TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, IT IS GOING TO BE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO REST THAT CONTROL AWAY FROM IRAN.

>> AND WHAT IS SO FRUSTRATING AND WE REALLY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, IS THAT THIS WASN'T A NOVEL ISSUE.

THAT SO MANY U. S. ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE BEEN WARNED THAT THIS COULD BE AND LIKELY AS THE MAIN LEVERAGE THAT IRAN WOULD HOLD OVER ANY MILITARY STRIKES, OVER ANY MILITARY CAMPAIGNS, AND YET, IT DID SEEM TO TAKE THIS WHITE HOUSE AND ISRAEL BY SURPRISE WHEN A RUN DID WHAT IT DID.

IT IS INTERESTING, YOU KNOW, EDWARD, I THINK BACK TO WHEN YOUR BOOK CAME OUT IN FEBRUARY 2025, "CHOKEPOINTS . "

MY HUSBAND HAPPENED TO BE READING IT, I THOUGHT THAT WAS AN INTERESTING, NICHE TOPIC.

ASSUMING THAT A YEAR AND A HALF LATER, THIS WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD BE FOCUSED ON.

THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ CAN OBVIOUSLY EXHIBIT A HERE.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO OUR VIEWERS, WHAT EXACTLY IS A CHOKEPOINT, AND HOW EXACTLY IN 2026 CAN THIS NARROW PATHWAY OF WATER REALLY HOLD THE GLOBAL ECONOMY IN SUCH A STRAIN AS IT IS RIGHT NOW?

>> SO, LOOK, CHOKEPOINTS ARE PART OF THE GLOBAL ECONOMY WHERE ONE COUNTRY HAS A DOMINANT POSITION AND THERE ARE FEW, IF ANY SUBSTITUTES.

YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE CHOKEPOINTS THAT HAVE BEEN USED FOR ECONOMIC WARFARE IN RECENT DECADES HAS BEEN ECONOMIC CHOKEPOINTS, NOT PHYSICAL ONES, SO YOU THINK OF THE DOLLAR, WHICH IS INVOLVED IN 90% OF ALL FOREIGN EXCHANGE TRANSACTIONS.

OR RARE EARTH ELEMENTS, WHERE CHINA REFINES ABOUT 90% OF THE GLOBAL SUPPLY POINT USC IN BOTH THE U. S. AND CHINA USES CHOKEPOINTS AS ECONOMIC WEAPONS.

I THINK THE OLDER FORM OF CHOKEPOINTS, THESE GEOGRAPHIC CHOKEPOINTS LIKE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ , HAVE ALSO THE SAME POTENCY.

THE DIFFERENCE OF COURSE IS THAT THEY ARE HARDER TO WEAPONIZE OUTSIDE OF WARTIME.

YOU NEED TO BE WILLING TO USE DRONES OR MISSILES IN ORDER TO CLOSE OFF OTHER COUNTRIES' ACCESS.

I THINK REALLY, THE IRONY HERE, THOUGH, BIANNA, IS IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE 2015 IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL, THAT WAS FUNDAMENTALLY ABOUT THE U. S. WEAPONIZING A CHOKEPOINT, NAMELY THE DOLLAR, PUTTING ECONOMIC PRESSURE ON IRAN, AND FORCING IRAN TO GIVE UNITED STATES CONCESSIONS ON ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

WHAT WE ARE NOW SEEING TODAY IS WHERE THE REVERSE, WHICH IS THAT IRAN HAS USED ITS CHOKEPOINT, STRAIT OF HORMUZ, TO IMPOSE ECONOMIC PRESSURE ON THE UNITED STATES, AND THEN FORCING THE UNITED STATES TO PROVIDE IRAN WITH ECONOMIC RELIEF.

SO, I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING IT AS IT IS NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES THAT CAN WEAPONIZE CHOKEPOINTS, IT IS CHINA AND EVEN MENTAL POWERS LIKE IRAN HAS WILL GET TO CHINA AND ITS WEAPONIZATION OF RARE EARTH METALS IN JUST A MOMENT, BUT [ INAUDIBLE ] REAL CHOKEPOINT IN A FOREIGN AFFAIRS PIECE, AND HERE IS WHAT YOU WROTE, "THREE CHARACTERISTICS, A SINGLE COUNTRY OR COLLISION OF CLOSE ALLIES POSSESSES A DOMINATED MARKET SHARE.

SUBSTITUTES ARE UNAVAILABLE IN THE SHORT TERM IN THE COUNTRY OR COALITION CAN WEAPONIZE ITS POSITION IN WAYS THAT IMPOSE ASYMMETRIC PRESSURE, CONFLICTING SUBSTANTIAL PAIN ON THE TARGET WAS SUFFERING MINIMAL SELF-HARM. "

SO, DOES THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ MEET YOUR OWN TEST TODAY, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT IRAN IS FACING ITS OWN ECONOMIC PAIN, BY THAT STRAIGHT REMAINING CLOSED, IF THEIR OWN SHIPS AREN'T ABLE TO SAIL THROUGH AND SELL OIL?

>> YEAH, SO I THINK YOU'RE HITTING ON EXACTLY WHAT THE ANALYTICAL ERROR OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS.

I THINK THEY ASSUMED THAT HORMUZ WOULD NOT MEET THE QUALIFICATION OF CHOKEPOINTS BECAUSE IRAN COULD NOT WEAPONIZE IT ASYMMETRICALLY.

THE IDEA WAS THAT FOR IRAN TO CLOSE THE STRAIGHT, IT WOULD HAVE TO USE [ INAUDIBLE ], THEY HAVE THOUSANDS OF THEM, AND IF YOU WERE TO PUT HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF SEA MINES ACROSS THIS NARROW WATERWAY THAT IS ONLY ABOUT 20 MILES ACROSS AT ITS NARROWEST POINT, WOULD BE CLOSING OFF SHIPPING FOR EVERYONE, BECAUSE OF COURSE SEA MINES DON'T DISCRIMINATE, THEY WILL BLOW UP A TANKER CARRYING SAUDI OIL JUST AS WELL AS THEY WILL BLOW UP A TANKER CARRYING IRANIAN OIL.

BUT THE NOVELTY IN TERMS OF SURPRISE THAT IRAN HAS UNLEASHED IS THAT JUST BY VIRTUE OF USING THESE VERY LOW- COST DRONES TO STRIKE THIS VERY SMALL HANDFUL OF SHIPS, THEY HAVE ONLY HAD ABOUT TWO DOZEN VESSELS OVER THE COURSE OF THIS CONFLICT, THAT HAS CHANGED THE PSYCHOLOGY OF THE WHOLE SHIPPING INDUSTRY, THE RISK CALCULUS, YOU NOW HAVE SHIPOWNERS SAYING WE ARE NOT SENDING OUR SHIPS THROUGH THE STRAIT, WE DON'T CARE WHAT THE INSURANCE COSTS ARE, WHATEVER, BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GOING TO PUT OUR MARINERS' LIVES AT RISK.

SO, I DO THINK IRAN USING THIS ASYMMETRICAL WARFARE OF DRONES HAS TURNED THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ INTO A CHOKEPOINT THEY CAN USE WITH ASYMMETRIC EFFECT.

>> SO, WE HAVE SEEN TWO DIFFERENT APPROACHES FROM THIS ONE ADMINISTRATION HERE IN THE U. S. PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS LONG SAID THE U. S. WILL REMAIN IN FULL CONTROL OVER THE STRAIT.

WE HAVE SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO BE A BIT, I THINK, MORE NUANCED AND HONEST LAST WEEK WHEN HE WAS VISITING GULF ALLIES, SAYING THAT IT IS INTERNATIONAL LAW THAT PRECLUDES ANYONE FROM CONTROLLING THE STRAIT, AND THUS, NO COUNTRY OTHER THAN IRAN WOULD BE IN SUPPORT OF THE STATUS QUO.

BUT REALISTICALLY, IS THERE ANYTHING THAT THE UNITED STATES CAN DO TO RESTORE FREEDOM OF NAVIGATION WITHOUT THE ESCALATION MILITARILY, THAT IT DOES SEEM PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS TO AVOID HAPPENING AGAIN?

>> NO.

AND THIS IS A REALLY UNFORTUNATE CIRCUMSTANCE WHERE WE DO HAVE INTERNATIONAL LAW ON OUR SIDE, VERY CLEARLY, IT IS NOT IRAN'S ABILITY --THEY SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHO SHOULD GO THROUGH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND WHO CAN'T BUT THIS IS A NATIONALLY OCCURRING INTERNATIONAL WATERWAY.

BUT WHAT WE SAW JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, THE UNITED NATIONS UNDER THE INTERNATIONAL MARITIME ORGANIZATION CREATED A CHANNEL THROUGH A MUDDY WATERS TO ALLOW SHIPS TO EVACUATE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

IRAN RESPONDED BY HITTING TWO NEW TRAWL VESSELS.

ON THURSDAY, THEY STRUCK A SINGAPOREAN FLAGGED CARGO SHIP, AND JUST ON SATURDAY, A TANKER CARRYING QATARI CRUDE OIL WAS STRUCK BY AN IRANIAN DRONE.

I THINK WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IN REAL TIME AS THE IRANIANS ARE TRYING TO ENFORCE WITH DRONES THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE THE GATEKEEPER OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, NOT UNITED STATES, NOT THE UNITED NATIONS, AND I THINK UNFORTUNATELY, THEY'RE PROBABLY GOING TO GET WHAT THEY WANT, UNLESS THE UNITED STATES IS WILLING TO GO BACK TO THE BATTLEFIELD, AND IT JUST DOESN'T SEE MY TRUCK HAS THE APPETITE TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW.

>> I MENTIONED THE CHINA EXAMPLE OF THEM HAVING RARE EARTH MINERALS, AND IT DOES SEEM LIKE THAT SUPPRESSED THE WORLD, EUROPEAN ALLIES, TRADING PARTNERS, THE UNITED STATES AS WELL, THAT SEEMS TO BE A ONE AND DONE CARD THAT CHINA COULD HOLD AND PLAY, BECAUSE ALL OF THESE OTHER COUNTRIES THEN SAY WE CAN'T BE IN THIS TYPE OF POSITION AGAIN AND WE NEED TO INVEST IN OUR OWN RARE EARTH, OR AT LEAST A DIVERSIFIED WHO WE PURCHASE THEM FROM.

COULD THAT NOT BE WHAT WE SEE TRANSPIRED WITH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AS WELL?

LOOKING FOR ALTERNATIVE ROUTES HERE, SO THAT NO COUNTRY WOULD BE PUT IN THE SPINE?

>> SO, AGAIN, IT IS A COMMON PHENOMENON WITH CHOKEPOINTS THAT ONCE HE WEAPONIZE THEM, THE COUNTRIES THAT THEN FEEL VULNERABLE TAKE STEPS TO INSULATE THEMSELVES.

SO, TO YOUR POINT, SINCE CHINA USED THIS RARE EARTH WEAPON LAST APRIL, THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN INVESTING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO TRY TO DIGITIZE OUR SUPPLY CHAIN FOR RARE EARTH MINERALS.

WHAT I WILL SAY IS I DO THINK THOSE INVESTMENTS ARE HELPING, BUT THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE YEARS TO BEAR THROUGH, SO I DO THINK THAT CHINA IS GOING TO RETAIN THIS LEVERAGE FOR MANY YEARS INTO THE FUTURE.

I THINK SIMILARLY WITH IRAN, ALMOST UNQUESTIONABLY, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE MORE PIPELINES BUILT TO CIRCUMVENT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THEY'RE ALREADY WORKING ON DOUBLING THE CAPACITY OF THEIR PORT, I'M SURE THE SAUDIS WILL DO THE SAME.

SO, I DO THINK THE [ INAUDIBLE ] OF HORMUZ WILL BE LESS THAN IT IS TODAY, IN FIVE OR 10 YEARS, BUT THAT IS STILL A LONG TIME FOR IRAN TO HAVE THAT KIND OF LEVERAGE OVER THE INTERNATIONAL ENERGY SYSTEM.

SO, I DO THINK THAT THE POTENCY OF HORMUZ AS A CHOKEPOINT IS PROBABLY GOING TO GO DOWN, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN OVERNIGHT, IT IS GOING TO TAKE MANY YEARS.

THAT'S WHY AS HE WROTE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES, THAT IRAN MAY BE BETTER MILITARILY AND ECONOMICALLY, BUT THIS HAS STRENGTHENED THEM STRATEGICALLY, AT LEAST IN THE INTERIM.

IT IS ALSO INTERESTING THAT YOU THINK THIS COULD BE AN EXAMPLE FOR OTHER COUNTRIES TO EXPLOIT CHOKEPOINTS.

DO YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING NOW?

>> YES.

BECAUSE I THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, AS ALWAYS, TO THINK ABOUT INCENTIVES.

YOU MIGHT BE ASKING, WELL, WHY WOULD IRAN NOT JUST BE WILLING TO ALLOW THE U. N. TO OVERSEE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, WHY DO THEY NEED TO CONTROL IT?

WELL, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL CAME OUT THE OTHER DAY AND SAID THAT IRAN HAS CALCULATED, IRANIAN OFFICIALS, JUST BY CHARGING SERVICE FEES AT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, THAT IS A $40 MILLION ANNUITY FOR THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT.

IT IS MASSIVE, THAT IS BASICALLY LIKE TAKING THEM AND DOUBLING THEM JUST BY CHARGING FEES AT THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

SO, IF YOU THINK ABOUT COUNTRIES THAT WOULD THEN WITNESS IRAN MAKING TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR CHARGING FEES, BASICALLY MONETIZING THIS CHOKEPOINT, I THINK IT IS GOING TO PROVE IRRESISTIBLE.

WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THE INDONESIAN GOVERNMENT FLIRT WITH THE IDEA OF TRYING TO ESTABLISH A FEE STRUCTURE AT THE STRAIGHT.

THEY WALKED THAT BACK, BUT I DO WORRY THAT IF IRAN DOES INSTITUTIONALIZE THIS FEE STRUCTURE GOING FORWARD, IT IS GOING TO PROVE IN [ INAUDIBLE ] FOR THE HOUTHIS, AND PROBABLY OTHER COUNTRIES AS WELL.

>> AND NO DOUBT SEEING A WINDFALL THAT IRAN CURRENTLY HAS, THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE FEBRUARY 27th.

EDWARD FISHMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH, REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME AND THE CONVERSATION.

>> MY PLEASURE, BIANNA, THANK YOU.

> >> THE IRAN WAR IS TESTING RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE U. S. AND ITS GULF ALLIES, AS MANY NATIONS LIKE KUWAIT HAVE BORNE THE BRUNT OF IRAN'S TARGETING OF REGIONAL AMERICAN MILITARY BASES.

SAUDI ARABIA HAS NOT ALLOWED THE U. S. TO CARRY OUT STRIKES FROM ITS TERRITORY.

THE NATION MAINTAINS A LAYERED ALLIANCE WITH WASHINGTON, ONE THAT CAN BE SEEN AS STRATEGIC, BUT ALSO INVOLVES BUSINESS TIES WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS FAMILY.

IT IS THE FOCUS OF THE NEW DOCUMENTARY, "THE CROWN PRINCE AND THE PRESIDENT. "

HERE IS THE TRAILER: >> [ INAUDIBLE ] >> IT IS SEES THAT THERE IS KIND OF A REALISTIC APPELLATION ABOUT WHAT AMERICA'S INTERESTS ARE, AND IT IS TO REMAIN VERY CLOSELY ALLIED POINT >> WHY DOES PRESIDENT TRUMP SEE THE SAUDIS AS IMPORTANT TO HIS AMERICA FIRST AGENDA?

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP SAW SAUDI ARABIA IS REALLY THE LINCHPIN TO THE MODERN MIDDLE EAST.

>> THE SPENT 40 MILLION, 50 MILLION, AM I SUPPOSED TO JUST LIKE THEM?

I LIKE THEM VERY MUCH.

>> PRODUCER OF THE FILM AND PBS FRONTLINE CORRESPONDENT MARTIN SMITH IS JOINING ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

MARTIN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

SO, AS IT RELATES TO THE WAR IN IRAN, WHICH ARE PEACE AND SO ON, BUT LET'S START THIS CONVERSATION DISCUSSING, YOU AND OTHER MILITARY OUTLETS HAVE REPORTED THAT MBS SAUDI OFFICIALS HAD BEEN AGAINST THIS WAR BEING LAUNCHED BY EZRA AND THE UNITED STATES, BUT THAT ONCE IT STARTED, MBS THEN STARTED PRESSING PRESIDENT TRUMP REPEATEDLY, AND HE REPORTS SEVERAL TIMES IN ONE WEEK, URGING HIM TO FINISH THE JOB THEN THAT HE STARTED AND NOT LEAVE A WOUNDED, BUT STILL POWERFUL ENOUGH IRAN THAT CAN STRIKE ITS NEIGHBORS AS IT HAS BEEN.

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THE PUBLIC POSTURE OF THAT RESTRAINT WITH THE PRIVATE PRESSURE AS THE WAR WAS GOING ON IN ITS FIRST FEW MONTHS OF ESCALATING?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THE CROWN PRINCE WAS WISE AND KNEW THAT STRIKING A RON WAS GOING TO HAVE A LOT OF SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES AND IT WAS NOT PREDICTABLE EXACTLY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

ALTHOUGH THE CLOSING OF THE STRAIGHT WAS PREDICTED.

BUT THEN ONCE IT STARTED, HE WANTED THE PRESIDENT, AS YOU MENTIONED, AND WE GO INTO THIS IN THE DOCUMENTARY, THAT HE WANTED THE PRESIDENT TO STRIKE EVEN HARDER AND HE ENCOURAGED HIM ON AT LEAST THREE OCCASIONS IN ONE WEEK AND PERHAPS MORE.

AND THEN THE IRANIANS STRUCK HIS AIRPORT -- AN AIRPORT NEAR RIYADH AND STRUCK OIL FACILITIES, AND HE STARTED TO FEEL THE COST OF THIS, AND THE PUBLIC IN SAUDI ARABIA WAS CERTAINLY ALARMED, AND SO, HE WANTED THIS TO END.

SO, THE SAUDIS, I THINK, WERE REALLY SOMEWHAT CONFOUNDED ABOUT WHAT TO DO ONCE THE WAR HAD STARTED.

FIRST, THEY WANTED TO FINISH IT, THEN THEY WANTED TO LAY OFF.

SO, IT HAS DAMAGED THE RELATIONSHIP.

THE SAUDIS IN FACT ARE LOOKING ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD FOR SECURITY GUARANTEES THAT THEY ARE NOT GETTING FROM THE U. S.

>> HOW DO YOU THINK THAT HAS CHANGED HOW MBS APPROACHES IRAN GOING FORWARD, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN, IF THEY ULTIMATELY DO REACH SOME SORT OF LONGER TERM DEAL?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THEY WERE DOING THAT PRIOR TO THIS WAR.

I THINK THEY HAD SOME ARRANGEMENTS WITH IRAN, AND I THINK THAT THEY ARE GOING TO WANT TO CONTINUE TO PURSUE THAT.

I MEAN, IRAN IS JUST ACROSS THE WATER FROM THEM, IS A BIG, POWERFUL NEIGHBOR, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO GO TO WAR WITH THEM.

SO, I THINK IT IS GOING TO INCREASE THEIR DIPLOMATIC INITIATIVES TO MAKE SOME KIND OF --COME TO SOME KIND OF DETENTE WITH THEM.

>> AND AS YOU SAID, THAT WAS THE PATH THEY WERE PURSUING, WHICH WAS QUITE OPPOSITE OF HOW THE UAE HAD BEEN APPROACHING IRAN LEADING UP TO THIS WAR, AND THE UAE CHOSE A DIFFERENT PATH, A MORE HAWKISH PATH, EVEN PARTNERING UP WITH ISRAEL, AND I BELIEVE, AS IT HAD BEEN REPORTED, STRIKING INSIDE A RON DURING THE CONNECTICUT WAR HERE AS WELL, BEFORE THE CEASE-FIRE.

DO YOU SENSE AN IDEOLOGICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MBS AND NBC?

IN THE UAE ?

>> WELL, THEY WERE VERY TIGHT, AND MBZ WAS THE CHAMPION OF MBS WHEN MBS WAS MOVING, TO BECOME THE CROWN PRINCE, HIS AMBASSADOR IN WASHINGTON PROMOTED THE IDEA THAT MBS WAS THE GUY THAT WE SHOULD BE PAYING ATTENTION TO, BUT OVER TIME AND OVER THE WAR IN IRAN, I'M SORRY, THE WAR IN YEMEN, THEY WORKED TOGETHER, AND THEN THEY WORKED AGAINST ONE ANOTHER, SO THE ONE THING ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST, ANYBODY THAT COVERS THIS KNOWS THAT IT IS CONSTANTLY SHIFTING AND CHANGING.

SO, NOW THE UAE IS MORE ALIGNED WITH TRUMP AND THE SAUDIS A BIT LESS SO.

BUT THAT CAN CHANGE OVERNIGHT.

>> YET, BUT ONE OF THE EXAMPLES OF HOW QUICKLY THINGS CHANGE, THE FACT THAT THE UAE HAS LEFT OPEC, TOO, IN THE MIDST OF ALL OF THIS, WAS QUITE A BIG HEADLINE AT THE TIME AS WELL.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FILM'S TITLE BECAUSE IT IS THE CROWN PRINCE OF THE PRESIDENT, SO IT IS NOT ABOUT TWO GOVERNMENTS, IT IS ABOUT TWO MEN.

WHY ARE THE MEN HERE AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP THE FOCUS OF YOUR INVESTIGATION, WHICH HAS BEEN OVER THE COURSE OF A DECADE, I BELIEVE?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

SO, BOTH MEN ARE TRANSACTIONAL AND SEE FOREIGN-POLICY AS SOMETHING THAT THEY WOULD CHOOSE TO CONDUCT ON A PERSONAL BASIS, AND SO, RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING, WHEN TRUMP WAS ELECTED IN HIS FIRST TERM, THE SAUDIS SENT A DELEGATION TO NEW YORK TO MEET WITH TRUMP OFFICIALS.

THEY SINGLED OUT JARED KUSHNER AS SOMEBODY THAT COULD BE AN EFFECTIVE CONDUIT.

AND TRUMP THEN ACCEPTED AN INVITATION TO MAKE HIS FIRST FOREIGN TRIP OVERSEAS TO RIYADH , AND THAT WAS AN UNUSUAL MOVE.

USUALLY, PRESIDENTS GO TO CANADA OR MEXICO OR EUROPE.

HE WANTED TO GO TO SAUDI ARABIA BECAUSE HE SAW -- AND COMMISSIONER WAS SORT OF --IT WAS HIS BRAINCHILD THAT IF YOU COULD GET SAUDI ARABIA ON BOARD AND GET SAUDI ARABIA TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL, WHAT LATER BECAME KNOWN AS ABRAHAM ACCORDS, YOU COULD GET THE REST OF THE COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, THE OTHER ARAB STATES, TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL, AND YOU WOULD HAVE MIDDLE EAST PEACE.

AND IT'S ALL SEEN AS TRANSACTIONAL, THROUGH BUSINESS TIES.

I MEAN, THE MANTRA OF KUSHNER WAS PEACE THROUGH PROSPERITY.

IF HE CAN MAKE PEOPLE WEALTHY, THEY WOULD BE LESS LIKELY TO ATTACK ONE ANOTHER.

>> YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THIS FILM COVERING JARED KUSHNER'S TIES TO MBS, AND THERE ARE CLIPS OF HIM EVEN SAYING EARLY ON IN THIS ADMINISTRATION IN THE FIRST TERM THAT HE WAS NOT VERY FAMILIAR WITH SAUDI ARABIA DIPLOMATICALLY, AND HE WAS ABLE TO ADMIT THAT PUBLICLY, BUT SAID THAT HE THOUGHT THAT IT WAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS HAD FAILED TO DO, THAT WAS HIS APPROACH TO IT.

AFTER TRUMP LEFT OFFICE IN 2020, JARED KUSHNER DIDN'T RETURN TO HIS REAL ESTATE COMPANY.

INSTEAD, HE LAUNCHED A PRIVATE EQUITY FIRM AND AFFINITY PARTNERS, AND THAT TOOK A $2 BILLION INVESTMENT FROM SAUDI'S SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUND SIX MONTHS AFTER JARED KUSHNER LEFT THE WHITE HOUSE.

THE PUBLIC INVESTMENT FUNDS OWN SCREENING PANEL HAD FLAGGED AFFINITIES EXPERIENCE AND CALL THIS UNSATISFACTORY, AND THE BOARD THAT MBS LEADS OVERRODE THOSE OBJECTIONS.

HERE IS HOW YOU HIGHLIGHTED IT IN THE FILM: >> KUSHNER WAS NOT ONLY THAT MBS MADE.

HE WASN'T ALONE, STEVE MNUCHIN ALSO WALKS INTO $1 BILLION.

STEVE MNUCHIN ALSO WALKS INTO SAUDI AND GETS A BILLION-DOLLAR INVESTMENT, HE IS LIKE A PIGGYBACK FOR FORMER AMERICAN OFFICIALS.

>> IT'S INCREDIBLE, IT'S INCREDIBLE.

THAT NORMALLY WOULD BE THE CAUSE OF THE GREAT STORM OF CONTROVERSY AND THERE WOULD BE HEARINGS, THERE WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, INVESTIGATIONS.

THERE WOULD CERTAINLY BE A LOT OF COMMENTARY AND CRITICISM , AND IT KIND OF CAME AND WENT.

STEVE MNUCHIN AND KUSHNER HAVE BRUSHED OFF CONCERNS ABOUT CONFLICTS OF INTEREST.

THEY WERE PRIVATE CITIZENS AT THE TIME.

>> BREAKING NEWS, WE ARE PROJECTING AT THIS HOUR THE 47th PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES , DONALD TRUMP BREAD >> THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S COMBAT WOULD BE COMPLETE WITH A WIN IN WISCONSIN.

>> AMERICA HAS GIVEN US AN UNPRECEDENTED AND POWERFUL MANDATE.

>> [ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ] >> AN EXTRAORDINARY POLITICAL COMEBACK.

SAUDI ARABIA, RUSSIA ALL VERY PLEASED POINT >> WHEN TRUMP WAS RE-ELECTED IN 2024, KUSHNER ONCE AGAIN BECAME A SENIOR ADVISER TO THE PRESIDENT, FOCUSED AGAIN ON MIDDLE EAST DIPLOMACY.

AT THE TIME, HIS FIRM, AFFINITY PARTNERS, WAS REPORTEDLY TAKING IN TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR IN FEES FROM THE SAUDIS.

KUSHNER SAYS HE DID NOT TAKE ANY SALARY FROM THE U. S. GOVERNMENT FOR HIS WORK.

>> AND KUSHNER, WE SHOULD NOTE, AS YOU ALLUDE TO IN YOUR PIECE THERE, DENIED THAT THE INVESTMENT REPRESENTED A CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

SO, WERE YOU ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION OF WHAT MBS, WHAT SAUDI ARABIA WAS ACTUALLY ATTEMPTING TO BUY HERE WITH THIS INVESTMENT?

>> I CAN ONLY SPECULATE ON THAT, BUT THE PUBLIC INVESTMENT FUND HAD BEEN A VERY CONSERVATIVE FUND.

IT INVESTED IN DOMESTIC COMPANIES, IT INVESTED IN SAUDI ARABIA, IT INVESTED IN TREASURY BILLS, THEY WERE NOT DOING WHAT THEY DID AFTER --IT REALLY AFTER THE JaMARCUS OG MURDER.

THIS STARTED INVESTMENT FOR THEY HAD BEEN RAMPING UP INVESTMENTS OVERSEAS, ESPECIALLY IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THIS GIVES THEM INFLUENCE OVERSEAS, IT MAKES HIM AN IMPORTANT PLAYER ON THE WORLD'S INVESTMENT , YOU KNOW, SO, AS ONE PERSON SAYS IN THE PROGRAM, TODAY, YOU DON'T NEED AN ARMY, YOU NEED A SOVEREIGN WEALTH FUND THAT CAN HELP YOU THROW A WEIGHT AROUND IN THE WORLD.

SO, I THINK THAT THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE AFTER.

>> YOU MENTIONED JAMAL KHASHOGGI, A HUMAN RIGHTS -- AND MBS'S RECORDS ON THIS ARE COVERED IN THE FILM AS WELL, AND YOU TALKED TO MBS YOURSELF, AND HE TOLD YOU THAT THE KILLING OF JAMAL KHASHOGGI HAPPENED "UNDER MY WATCH," AND HE TOOK RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT, GIVEN THAT IT WAS UNDER HIS WATCH.

WATCHING PRESIDENT TRUMP DEFEND MBS AND GO ONE STEP FURTHER, JUST SORT OF DISMISSING IT AS THINGS HAPPEN, I WAS THAT INTERPRETED IN THE KINGDOM?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE WAS A SIGH OF RELIEF THAT THEY COULD GO AS FAR AS THEY HAD GONE, BOTH IN A SLEW OF HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES, RESTING SO-CALLED DISSIDENTS, WRITERS, JOURNALISTS, AND WHATEVER, ALL THE WAY UP THROUGH THE MURDER OF KHASHOGGI.

THE RELATIONSHIP DID NOT --YOU KNOW, TRUMP DID NOT PULL BACK.

HE SAID WE ARE GOING TO STAY WITH SAUDI ARABIA.

HE IS ASKED BY A REPORTER, DID YOU LET HIM GET AWAY WITH MURDER?

HE SAYS NO, NO, NO, THIS IS ABOUT AMERICA FIRST, WE ARE STICKING WITH SAUDI ARABIA.

>> MARTIN SMITH, YOU GET INTO A LOT OVER THE COURSE OF THOSE 10 YEARS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATING THESE TWO MEN AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP.

I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO WATCH IT, "THE CROWN PRINCE AND THE PRESIDENT" WILL BE AVAILABLE TO WATCH ON PBS STATIONS AND ONLINE FROM JUNE 30th ON.

MARTIN SMITH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

NOW, HOW A SINGLE WORD CAN SHAPE HISTORY, IDENTITY, AND FAMILY.

ELIZABETH PRYOR BEGAN RESEARCHING THE CHANGING USE AND POWER OF THE N-WORD .

GROWING UP AS A BIRACIAL WOMAN IN AMERICA, SHE ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD THE WORD'S IMPACT, BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL LATER WHEN CONNECTING WITH HER FATHER WHEN SHE BEGAN TO PROCESS HOW THAT WORD INFLUENCES QUESTIONS OF SELFHOOD.

ELIZABETH JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HER NEW BOOK, SOMETHING WE SAID, AND WHAT IT REVEALS ABOUT LANGUAGE AND FAMILY LEGACY.

>> THE THANKS, BIANNA.

PROFESSOR ELIZABETH , THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I FOLLOWED YOUR WORK FOR YEARS, YOUR TED TALK FOR EXAMPLE IT HAS BEEN VIEWED MORE THAN 1 MILLION TIMES.

UNTIL THIS BOOK, I NEVER KNEW THAT YOU WERE RICHARD'S DAUGHTER.

AND I KIND OF GOT THE IMPRESSION FROM READING YOUR BOOK THAT YOU PREFERRED IT THAT WAY, OR YOU AT LEAST PREFERRED IT THAT WAY PROFESSIONALLY, AM I CORRECT?

>> PROFESSIONALLY AND PERSONALLY, 100%.

IT WAS IN DOING THIS WORK AND WRITING THIS BOOK THAT I FINALLY STARTED TO PUBLICLY AND I GUESS PRIVATELY CLAIM MY FATHER, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW, IT WAS JUST AWKWARD FOR ME.

>> REALLY?

I MEAN, COME ON, IS ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS --AT ONE POINT, HE WAS ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS COMEDIANS IN AMERICA, HE IS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL BLACK COMEDIANS IN AMERICA, ONE OF THE MOST FAMOUS, I GUESS, ENTERTAINERS.

>> WELL, I MEAN, I KNOW IT'S BEEN SO PROUD OF MY FATHER, AND WANTED TO CLAIM HIM, BUT JUST THERE WERE SO MANY INTRUSIVE QUESTIONS WHEN I WAS YOUNGER THAT PEOPLE WOULD ASK ME, DO YOU KNOW HIM, ARE YOU CLOSE?

HOW OFTEN DO YOU SEE HIM?

AND THEN MY FATHER BECAME AS FAMOUS FOR HIS DEMONS IN SOME WAYS AS HE DID FOR HIS BRILLIANCE, AND PEOPLE WOULD TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT, AND THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO KIND OF PROTECT MYSELF, NOT FROM MY FATHER OR MY CONNECTION TO HIM, BUT FROM PEOPLE'S INTRUSION, WAS TO START CORDONING THAT REALITY OFF, AND I DIDN'T DO IT UNTIL I REALLY GOT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THIS WORK.

>> HOWEVER THE BOOK WAS THAT YOU INTENDED TO START WRITING A SCHOLARLY TREATISE ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF THE N-WORD AS WE NOW CALL IT, AND YOU'RE GOING TO TELL US MORE ABOUT THAT, BUT THE FAMILY STORY KEPT INTERVENING, YOU KNOW, KIND OF THE WAY LIKE A PESKY KID KEEPS COMING INTERSTUDY WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO GET YOUR WORK DONE.

WHAT YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> I MEAN, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, AS I DELVED INTO THE RESEARCH, THERE WERE FEW THINGS THAT I READ THAT DIDN'T MENTION RICHARD PRYOR.

OKAY, SO HE IS PART OF --HIS GROUNDBREAKING WORK IS TO BRING LIKE THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE BLACK EXPERIENCE THAT HE HAD GROWING UP, AND SPEAKING THAT WAY, AND THAT INCLUDED THE BLACK USE OF THE N-WORD THAT MANY AMERICANS HAD NEVER REALLY, YOU KNOW, ENGAGED WITH BEFORE, AND HE BROUGHT THAT ONSTAGE, AND TWO OF HIS GRAMMY AWARD-WINNING ALBUMS FROM THE 1970s HAVE THE N-WORD IN THE TITLE.

SO, HIS NAME CAME UP OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND IN FACT, THIS JOURNEY STARTED IN MY CLASSROOM WHEN A WHITE STUDENT SAID THE N- WORD, QUOTING A LINE FROM A 1974 FILM, BLAZING SADDLES , THAT MY FATHER COWROTE.

>> THAT YOUR FATHER COWROTE?

THAT HE COWROTE?

>> WHAT HAPPENED TO SHOP ME BECAUSE I ACTUALLY FROZEN HAD NO IDEA WHAT TO DO, I REALLY BECAME SORT OF DISARMED IN THAT MOMENT IN THE CLASSROOM, IN FRONT OF MY STUDENTS, IN REAL TIME.

AND IT KIND OF CATAPULTED ME INTO A JOURNEY , A THREE-PRONGED DISCOVERY REALLY, BECAUSE I KNEW SOMETHING WAS HAPPENING TO ME ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.

I KNEW I HAD TO BE MORE INTENTIONAL AS A CLASSROOM TEACHER ABOUT HOW TO TEACH THE HISTORY OF RACISM AND PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT RACISM WOULD APPEAR AT TIMES IN THE CLASSROOM, EVEN INADVERTENTLY, AND HOW TO NEGOTIATE THAT, AND TO THINK ABOUT, DID I EVEN KNOW WHAT THIS WORD MEANT?

AND DIGGING INTO THAT HISTORY, AND IT WAS IN THAT HISTORY THAT I KEPT CONFRONTING MY FATHER MORE AND MORE.

AND IN MY OWN MEMORIES.

>> YOU HAVE DESCRIBED, SORT OF VERY MOVINGLY, HOW --I HOPE YOU DON'T OBJECT TO THIS WORD, HOW TRAUMATIC IT WAS IN SOME WAYS FOR THOSE TROTS -- THOUGHTS TO KEEP INTRUDING INTO YOUR SCHOLARLY WORK.

YOU DESCRIBE IT VERY VIVIDLY PRETTY RIGHT ABOUT THIS EARLY IN THE BOOK AND YOU SAY "LIKE IN A DAZE, I WALKED BACK TO MY OFFICE, TRYING TO PROCESS WHAT HAPPENED.

HOW COULD A GROUP OF SIX LETTERS THROW ME OFF MY GAME QUESTION MARK AS A BLACK PROFESSOR OF AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY, THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT I THOUGHT I SHOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE, BUT INSTEAD OF GUIDING THE STUDENTS AND TAKING CHARGE, I JUST STOOD THERE.

GROWING UP WITH MY WHITE JEWISH MOTHER AND GOING TO MOSTLY WHITE SCHOOLS, I NEVER FELT COMFORTABLE SAYING THE N-WORD, IT DRIED UP ON MY TONGUE LIKED HER, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A MAINSTAY OF MY FATHER'S COMEDY.

IN ACADEMIA, THERE WAS AN EXPECTATION TO SAY THE WORD FOR ACCURACY.

KNOWN AS THE MENTION, EXCEPTION.

AND THEN YOU SORT OF GO ON TO TALK ABOUT HOW IT SENT A CHILL THROUGH THE CLASSROOM, AND EVEN YOU, YOU SAT ON A BENCH CATCHING YOUR BREATH.

I JUST FOUND THAT SO PROFOUND , THAT IT HAD ALMOST LIKE A PHYSICAL REACTION.

CAN YOU SAY WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS?

>> WELL, WHAT I KNOW IS THAT THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH THIS RACISM IS NOT PROCESSED.

I KNOW GROWING UP, I HAD NO SPACE TO EVEN HAVE THE CONVERSATION, WHICH IS PART OF THE REASON I WROTE THE BOOK, IS I WAS HOPING THAT PEOPLE CAN HAVE A JUMPING OFF POINT TO REALLY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A --AND I THINK TRAUMA IS THE RIGHT WORD, BUT THIS DOESN'T ONLY REPRESENT THIS NATIONAL TRAUMA, THIS RELIC OF RACISM IN THE PAST, IF YOU WILL, BUT IT HAS THIS INTIMATE HURT, AND EVEN HURT DIMINISHES WHAT IT DOES, BECAUSE THIS IS CLEARLY A PART OF, YOU KNOW, SYSTEMIC RACISM, BUT IT TOUCHES US IN THESE WAYS THAT ARE SO UNIQUELY PERSONAL TO US.

EVEN AS IT HAS THIS NATIONAL IMPACT.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT I SAW IN THAT MOMENT THAT I DIDN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND BEFORE IT.

>> SAY MORE ABOUT YOUR OWN STORY, IF YOU WOULD YOUR PARENTS CAME FROM VERY DIFFERENT WORLDS.

YOUR FATHER WAS A YOUNG, BLACK COMEDIAN FROM SEGREGATED PEORIA, ILLINOIS.

SOME PEOPLE KNOW HIS BACK STORY.

YOU DO GO INTO IT A BIT IN THE BOOK, BUT HE WAS RAISED IN A BROTHEL.

I MEAN, 'S GRANDMOTHER WAS A MADAM, HIS MOTHER WAS A SEX WORKER, HIS DAD WAS A PIMP.

YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK SEEING THE PEOPLE WHO CUT HIS BREAKFAST AND SENT HIM OFF TO SCHOOL HAVING TO HAVE SEX WITH STRANGERS FOR THEIR JOB.

IT IS DESCRIBED IN VIVID TERMS.

YOUR MOM WAS A WHITE JEWISH WOMAN FROM BOSTON, HIS FIRST SERIOUS WHITE GIRLFRIEND.

HOW DID THEY MEET?

>> THEY MET IN A NIGHTCLUB IN GREENWICH VILLAGE WHEN THEY WERE LIKE 22 AND 23.

AND THEY WERE ON DATES WITH OTHER PEOPLE, AND LIKED EACH OTHER BETTER.

YEAH.

>> OH, OKAY.

>> AND THAT WAS THAT.

X YOU KNOW, YOU WERE BORN, THERE IS A PICTURE OF HIM HOLDING YOU AS A BABY, YOU KNOW, IN THE BOOK, BUT YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY MEET HIM UNTIL HE WAS SIX, SIX YEARS OLD?

I MEAN, YOU HAVE A REALLY VIVID MEMORY OF IT.

DO YOU MIND TELLING THAT STORY?

YOUR PARENTS SPLIT UP, OBVIOUSLY.

THEY SPLIT UP, OBVIOUSLY.

>> NO, NOT AT ALL.

THEY SPLIT UP PRETTY MUCH RIGHT AFTER I WAS BORN.

AND MY MOM TOOK ME BACK TO HER --YOU KNOW, THEY WERE IN L. A. , MY FATHER WAS MAKING IT IN HOLLYWOOD, AND MY MOM WENT BASICALLY WITH HER TAIL BETWEEN HER LEGS AFTER HER FOLKS IN BOSTON, AND RAISED ME WITH THEM.

AND SHE WROTE HIM A LETTER WHEN I WAS ABOUT SIX YEARS OLD BECAUSE MY FATHER WAS NOT INVOLVED AT ALL, AND SAID HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT I LOVE A CHILD SO MUCH AND HER FATHER FEELS NOTHING?

AND A FEW WEEKS OR MONTHS LATER OR SO, MY FATHER , UM, SENT FOR US, AND WE WENT TO NEWARK, NEW JERSEY TO WATCH HIM PERFORM, AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I MET MY FATHER.

AND I MET HIM IN A HOTEL ROOM.

WHEN HE WAS ABOUT TO GO ON STAGE.

AND I --THE SECOND I SAW HIM, I WAS HEAD OVER HEELS.

IT WAS LIKE , WAIT, THIS IS WHAT HAVING A FATHER IS?

LIKE YES, I WANT THIS.

AND I WAS TERRIFIED I WAS NEVER GOING TO SEE HIM AGAIN, BECAUSE I HADN'T SEEN HIM FOR SO LONG.

>> WOULD YOU DESCRIBE --IN YOUR TED TALK, YOU CALL THESE MOMENTS OF ENCOUNTER WITH THE N- WORD.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU , TWO STORIES, WHAT WAS YOUR MOMENT OF ENCOUNTER WITH THE N-WORD IN HIS WORK?

WHAT WAS YOUR MOMENT OF ENCOUNTER WITH IT IN YOUR OWN LIFE?

>> IN MY CLASS, IN MY CONVERSATIONS, IN MY WORKSHOPS, OVER AND OVER AGAIN, PEOPLE WOULD TELL ME ABOUT THE IS UNPROCESSED MOMENTS THAT THEY HAD WITH THE N-WORD AND NOT REALLY KNOWING HOW TO RESPOND OR WHAT TO DO, AND I CAME TO CALL THEM POINTS OF ENCOUNTER, AND AS I DUG MORE DEEPLY INTO MY OWN LIFE, I REALIZED OF COURSE, I HAD THEM, TOO, AND ONE OF THEM WAS THE FIRST VERY MEANINGFUL CONVERSATION I HAD WITH MY FATHER, LIKE I SAID, I THOUGHT IT WAS NEVER GOING TO SEE HIM AGAIN, AND THEN HE APPEARED FOR MY SEVENTH BIRTHDAY, WHICH LIKE I WAS SO SHOCKED, AND MY MOTHER WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW, TELL YOUR FATHER WHAT HAPPENED AT SCHOOL.

WELL, WHAT HAPPENED AT SCHOOL WAS TWO BOYS HAD CALLED ME THE N-WORD AT THE PLAYGROUND, AND I GOT THE SENSE THAT THIS WAS REALLY DIFFERENT BECAUSE MY WHITE TEACHERS WHO ALWAYS TOLD ME, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT STUPID WHEN THE KIDS COMING STUPID, YOU'RE NOT UGLY WHEN THE KIDS CALL ME UGLY, DIDN'T TELL ME I WASN'T AN N WORD WHEN THE KIDS CALL ME A LETTER AND WORD, SO I'M LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE?

SO, I TOLD MY FATHER AT THIS DINNER FOR MY BIRTHDAY, I THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO BE ASHAMED OF ME, YOU KNOW, FOR NOT BEING STRONGER AND STICKING UP FOR MYSELF.

AND HE SAID, YOU KNOW, DON'T LET NOBODY EVER CALL YOU THAT.

AND HE SAID YOU ARE BLACK, WHICH I DID NOT KNOW.

I KNEW I WAS JEWISH, I DIDN'T THINK I WAS WHITE, BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW THAT EITHER.

WHITE DIDN'T MEAN ANYTHING TO ME EITHER, BUT YOU SAID YOU WERE BLACK, AND YOU'RE CONNECTED TO OTHER BLACK PEOPLE, AND IF ANYBODY EVER CALLED YOU OR THEM THIS WORD, YOU HAVE GOT TO KNOCK THEM OUT.

THAT WAS THE DIRECTION.

THE MARCHING ORDERS.

>> SO, HOW DID YOU FIGURE OUT THAT THE N-WORD WAS SUCH A BIG PART OF HIS WORK?

LET'S WELL, I KNEW THAT IT WAS PART OF HIS WORK, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW THAT IT MATTERED BUT I DIDN'T KNOW THAT HE HAD A JOURNEY WITH THE N-WORD, LET ME PUT IT THAT WAY.

THAT HE WAS BUILDING ON BLACK POWER LUMINARIES, THAT THIS WAS AN ARTISTIC DECISION, THAT HE HAD WALKED OFF OF A LAS VEGAS STAGE IN 1967, SAID I AM NOT DOING VAUDEVILLE ANYMORE, BUT I'M SPEAKING AUTHENTICALLY, WHATEVER THAT IS, I'M GOING TO BE THE REAL RICHARD PRYOR AND A TRUTH TELLER ON STAGE.

>> [ INAUDIBLE ] >> [ INAUDIBLE ] MY GUN FELL AND JUST WENT CRAZY.

>> [ LAUGHTER ] >> AND I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT PART OF IT, THAT THAT WAS CONNECTED.

AND THEN AT THE END OF THE PRIEST THE 70s, WHEN MY FATHER IS THAT PRETTY MUCH THE HEIGHT OF HIS FAME, HE GOES ON A JOURNEY TO AFRICA, INSPIRED BY , YOU KNOW, ALEX HALEY'S ROOTS, HE GOES TO AFRICA AND HE HAS THIS EPIPHANY THERE THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF, YOU KNOW, KENYA, WHERE BLACK PEOPLE ARE DOING THE MOST MENIAL THINGS AND RUNNING THE COUNTRY, THAT THE N- WORD REALLY DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THE WHITE SUPREMACY OF THE UNITED STATES.

THAT HAS NO MEANING FOR HIM.

AND HE VOWS THAT HE IS NEVER GOING TO CALL ANOTHER BLACK MAN THE N-WORD AGAIN.

>> AND IT HIT ME LIKE A SHOT, MAN, I STARTED CRYING , SITTING.

I WAS LIKE, I HAVE BEEN HERE THREE WEEKS, I HAVEN'T EVEN SAID IT.

I HAVEN'T EVEN THOUGHT IT.

AND IT MADE ME SAY, OH MY GOSH, I HAVE BEEN WRONG.

>> AND HE PULLED ME ASIDE BEFORE HE SAID THAT ON STAGE AND TOLD ME THAT HE WAS NEVER GOING TO CALL ANYBODY THE N- WORD AGAIN, AND AS FAR AS I KNOW, HE NEVER DID.

>> WOW.

SO, HERE IS WHERE I NEED YOU TO PUT YOUR PROFESSOR HAT ON, BECAUSE ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THE BOOK IS THIS IS A MEDITATION INTO THE ORIGINS OF THE WORD, HOW IT BECAME A SLUR, AND WHAT SOCIAL MEANING IT HAS, OKAY, SO AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, WHAT IS THE ORIGIN OF THIS WORD?

>> THE WORD DID EXIST, AND NOT EXACTLY AS A SLUR.

IN 1619, WHEN THE FIRST 20 SLAVED THE PEOPLE WERE KIDNAPPED AND BROUGHT TO JAMESTOWN, THOSE PEOPLE WERE REFERRED TO IN THE RECORDS AS THE N-WORD.

BUT AT THAT POINT, THAT WORD, YOU KNOW, DESCRIBED A LABOR CATEGORY.

PEOPLE MARKED BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN, INVOLUNTARY LABORS, IN PERPETUITY, YOU KNOW, ME, MY CHILDREN, MY CHILDREN'S CHILDREN, AND THEN IT REALLY BECOMES A SLUR IN THE 1830S WHEN BLACK PEOPLE BECOME FREE.

AND ARE STILL CALLED THIS WORD.

SO, THIS IS LESS AN INDICTMENT ON BLACK PEOPLE BEING ENSLAVED AND MORE ON A STATEMENT OF THE IMPOSSIBILITY IN THIS IDEOLOGY OF BLACK PEOPLE EVER REALLY BECOMING FREE.

IT IS AN ASSAULT, AN ATTACK ON BLACK PROSPERITY.

AND THAT IS WHERE YOU HEAR THE N-WORD USED AS THE SLUR THAT WE UNDERSTAND IT TO BE TODAY.

>> AND LOOPING BACK TO YOUR PERSONAL STORY, THERE IS THIS OTHER PAINFUL MOMENT WHEN YOUR WHITE MOTHER, WHO CLEARLY ADORED YOU, AND WHOM YOU ADORED, USES THAT WORD DURING AN ARGUMENT.

DO YOU MIND TELLING THAT STORY?

>> I HAD JUST FOUND OUT SOME CONFIRMATION ABOUT MY PARENTS THAT I HADN'T KNOWN , AND I CAME IN AND CONFRONTED MY MOTHER AT MY FATHER'S.

AND I CAME IN AND CONFRONTED MY MOTHER WITH IT AND MY MOTHER WAS PUGILISTIC IF SHE WAS ANYTHING.

SHE WAS A BOXER, AND SHE JUST WOULD GO LOW.

AND AT THE END OF THE ARGUMENT, I THINK SHE WAS TRYING TO GO LOW BY SAYING YOU ARE JUST LIKE YOUR FATHER, AND I SAID I AM.

AND THAT IS WHEN SHE CALLED ME THE WORD.

AND TO ME -- IT JARRED ME AWAKE.

I WAS LIKE, OKAY, BUT MY MOTHER NEVER STOPPED FIGHTING AND ACTUALLY SHE NEVER APOLOGIZED FOR IT, EITHER, SHE WASN'T ABLE TO.

AND I DO THINK -- >> ALL THOSE YEARS, I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT, YOU WERE ONLY LIKE 12 YEARS OLD OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT ?

>> I WAS 12.

>> AND YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT YOU ACTUALLY BROUGHT IT UP TO HER SUBSEQUENTLY AND YOU GAVE HER THE OPPORTUNITY TO AND SHE NEVER DID?

>> MANY, MANY, MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO.

SHE COULDN'T.

BECAUSE OF WHO SHE WAS.

SHE JUST COULDN'T.

UM, AND I HAD TO MAKE A DECISION AS HER DAUGHTER -- A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THINGS LIKE GOING NO CONTACT OR WHATEVER.

BUT -- I HAD TO MAKE A DECISION THAT I WAS GOING TO --SHE HAD A HARD LIFE AND I WAS GOING TO LOVE HER THE VERY BEST I COULD, BUT ALWAYS, I THINK ABOUT IT LIKE THE PRINCESS AND THE PEA.

AND IT WAS --IT WAS A HARD KNOT BETWEEN US THAT NEVER UNFURLED.

LIKE IT JUST NEVER CLEARED UP AND OUR ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP WAS A SHAME, BECAUSE YOU ARE RIGHT, SHE LOVED ME SO MUCH.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK ALL THESE YEARS LATER, DECADES ACTUALLY, CENTURIES LATER, THIS WORD RETAINS SO MUCH POWER?

>> I MEAN, IT REALLY IS A REPRESENTATION OF THE RACIAL AND FOUNDATIONAL RACIAL , RACIST HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES IN SO MANY WAYS.

AND ONE OF THE QUESTIONS I ASKED MYSELF FOR A LONG TIME, I MEAN, I UNDERSTAND WHY --I DO STILL UNDERSTAND THE KIND OF WAY IS THAT IT IS VICIOUS AND USED BY RACISTS, BUT WHY WOULD BLACK PEOPLE WANT TO USE A WORD?

TO SUBJUGATE US.

AND I THINK THAT IS A MISGUIDED QUESTION, BECAUSE THE REAL QUESTION IS WHY DOES IT STILL RESONATE FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO USE THEM ON EACH OTHER FROM CERTAIN PLACES?

AND I THINK IT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE A STATEMENT AGAINST SOCIAL INJUSTICE, AGAINST ANY QUALITY .

AND AS LONG AS THOSE THINGS ARE IN PLACE, THIS WORD IS GOING TO RESONATE FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS.

>> ELIZABETH STORDEUR PRYOR, PROFESSOR PRYOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME PICK >> AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT BUT IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

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