May 20, 2026

>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I HAVE CALLED AND CONCEDED THE RACE.

WE'VE BEEN HONORABLE THE WHOLE TIME, AND WE'RE GOING TO STAY THAT WAY.

>> TRUMP TIGHTENS HIS GRIP ON THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AS HIS PICKS WIN KEY PRIMARIES.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE MID-TERMS AND THE FUTURE OF THE GOP?

JOURNALIST DAVID GRAHAM JOINS ME.

> >> THEN - - >> TODAY OUR RELATIONS HAVE REACHED AN UNPRECEDENTED HIGH LEVEL, SERVING AS A MODEL OF COMPREHENSIVE PARTNERSHIP AND STRATEGIC INTERACTION.

>> PUTIN VISITS BEIJING, BUT IS HE ON THE BACK FOOT IN UKRAINE?

I SPEAK TO KYLED RUSSIAN JOURNALIST MIKHEIL FISHMAN, AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK, "THE SUCCESSOR. "

ALSO AHEAD, THE MEN WHO WANT WOMEN TO BE QUIET.

HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS TO HELEN LEWIS ABOUT HOW THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT, THE MAGSPHAERE AND MAGGA HAVE FORMED A NEW POWERFUL COALITION AGAINST FEMINISM.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

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BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SIING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

DONALD TRUMP'S HOLD ON THE REPUBLICAN PARTY APPEARS AS STRONG AS EVER.

IN PRIMARIES HELD THIS WEEK TRUMP-BACKED CANDIDATES ADVANCED IN GEORGIA, ALABAMA, AND KENTUCKY.

A SHOW OF FORCE THAT COMES DESPITE THE PRESIDENT'S WEAK POLLING, GROWING CONCERNS ABOUT THE MID-TERMS, AND QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER REPUBLICANS WILL LOSE CONTROL OF CONGRESS.

PERHAPS THE MOST STRIKING EXAMPLE CONGRESSMAN THOMAS MASSIE, ONCE AN ALLY AND MORE RECENTLY A CRITIC OF THE PRESIDENT ON ISSUES RANGING FROM THE EPSTEIN FILES TO ISRAEL AND IRAN.

MASSIE LOST TO RETIRED NAVY S. E. A. L. ED GALLREIN WHO SAID HE'LL BE LOYAL TO THE PRESIDENT'S AGENDA.

>> I WANT TO THANK PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR HIS SUPPORT, HIS ENDORSEMENT, AND HIS COUNSEL AS I NAVIGATED THIS CAMPAIGN, WHICH IS A JOURNEY OF AND TO ITSELF.

AND FOR HIS COURAGEOUS LEADERSHIP OF OUR NATION AT THIS CRITICAL TIME.

I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT --THIS CRITICAL TIME AND JUNCTURE IN HISTORY.

THANK YOU, MR.

PRESIDENT.

>> AND MASSIE WASN'T ALONE.

OTHER REPUBLICANS WHO SOUGHT TO STAY IN TRUMP'S GOOD GRACES HAVE ALSO FOUND THEMSELVES ON SHAKIER GROUND POLITICALLY LIKE TEXAS SENATOR JOHN CORNYN.

ON TUESDAY TRUMP CHOSE TO ENDORSE THE CONTROVERSIAL ATTORNEY GENERAL, KEN PAXTON, OVER CORNYN IN THE TEXAS SENATE RACE WITH THE PRIMARY RUNOFF VOTE HAPPENING NEXT WEEK.

SO WHAT DOES THIS MOMENT TELL US ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE GOP AND THE UPCOMING MID-TERMS?

JOINING ME NOW IS JOURNALIST DAVID A. GRAHAM, THE AUTHOR OF "THE PROJECT" WHERE, EXAMINING HOW PROJECT 2025 IS RESHAPING AMERICA.

DAVID, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AS WE JUST LISTED THERE FROM THOMAS MASSIE IN KENTUCKY TO BRAD RAFF SBERING IN GEORGIA, THEY ALL CROSS DONALD TRUMP, AND THIS WEEK THEY ALL LOST, SO IS IT NOW AN ESTABLISHED FACT OF LIFE THAT AT LEAST WITHIN THE GOP PARTY, IF YOU CROSS TRUMP, YOU LOSE POLITICALLY?

>> THAT DOES SEEM TO BE THE CASE.

WE'VE SEEN AN IMPRESSIVE KIND OF REVENGE SPREE FROM TRUMP ON THESE THINGS.

ALL OF THESE CANDIDATES WHO HAVE CROSSED HIM HAVE LOST, AND YOU LOOK AT SOMEBODY LIKE MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE WHO WASN'T UP FOR RE-ELECTION BUT WHO HE BASICALLY PUSHED OUT OF THE PARTY AND OUT OF CONGRESS WE CAN SEE NOW.

SO HE DOES SEEM TO RETAIN A FIRM GRIP ON WHAT GOES ON INSIDE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> AND JUST ENDORSED KEN PAXTON OVER INCUMBENT JOHN KRNEN, WHICH WAS RATHER A SURPRISE BECAUSE MOST OF THE PARTY ESTABLISHMENT BELIEVED THAT ENDORSEMENT WOULD COME IN CORNYN'S FAVOR.

HE'S SOMEONE WHO BOASTED OF VOTING ALONGSIDE TRUMP 99% OF THE TIME.

PAXTON BRINGS A LONG HISTORY OF SCANDALS.

HE IS QUITE CONTROVERSIAL.

THERE ARE FRAUD ALLEGATIONS AS WELL.

AND THIS IS WHAT TRUMP SAID OF CORNYN.

HE SAID, "HE WAS NOT SUPPORTIVE OF ME WHEN TIMES WERE TOUGH. "

SO IS THIS THE PRESIDENT PUTTING A SAFE REPUBLICAN SEAT NOW IN JEOPARDY JUST TO SETTLE A SCORE?

>> I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE THINGS GOING ON HERE.

I MEAN, IT'S CLEAR THAT DESPITE CORNYN'S RECORD HE HAS BEEN MAYBE A LESS ENTHUSIASTIC TRUMP BACKER EVEN WHEN HE'S VOTED FOR TRUMP.

HE DOESN'T SEEM LIKE HE'S REALLY IN ON IT IN THE WAY KEN PAXTON IS.

I ALSO THINK, THOUGH, THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF A SIGN OF TRUMP'S WEAKNESS HERE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN THIS PRIMARY --WHEN IT WENT TO RUNOFF, IT WAS EXPECTED THAT TRUMP WOULD ENDORSE CORNYN.

THERE WERE LOTS OF REPORTS TO THAT, AND THEN TRUMP DITHERED.

AND ONE REASON HE DITHERED I THINK IS POLLS WERE SHOWING HE WAS A LOSER.

AND IN THIS CASE I THINK TRUMP IS FOLLOWING HIS VOTERS A LITTLE BIT AND SORT OF TRYING TO RETROACTIVELY MAKE HIMSELF TO SOMEONE WHO'S ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE COMING PRIMARY.

>> SO GIVEN THE DYNAMICS NOW IN TEXAS, MANY IN THE PARTY ESTABLISHMENT HAD VIEWED CORNYN AS THE FAVORED TO BEAT JAMES TALARICO, WHO'S A RISING DEMOCRATIC STAR, A CONGRESSMAN IN THE STATE.

THERE ARE NO ILLUSIONS THAT TEXAS IS ABOUT TO TURN BLUE.

BUT WE'VE BEEN HERE BEFORE WITH PREVIOUS RUNOFFS THAT HAVE BEEN RATHER CLOSE, AND QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER TEXAS WAS AT LEAST BORDERLINE PURPLE.

DOES THIS MAKE THAT LIKELIHOOD THAT MUCH MORE POSSIBLE GIVEN THAT CORNYN, I MEAN, WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT WEEK, BUT IF HE'S EXPECTED TO LOSE.

AND YOU DO SEE SOMEONE LIKE KEN PAXTON GOING UP AGAINST TALARICO, DOES THAT UP THE ODDS FOR TALARICO?

>> I THINK DEMOCRATS ARE MUCH MORE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING PAXTON THAN THEY ARE CORNYN.

CORNYN HAS A LONG HISTORY OF WINNING IN TEXAS.

HE'S BEEN THE SENATOR FOR A LONG TIME.

PAXTON HE'S SO SCANDAL-PLAGUED.

YOU KNOW, HE HAD THIS MESSY DIVORCE FROM HIS WIFE.

THERE WAS A VERY CLOSE FAILED IMPEACHMENT OVER MANY ALLEGATIONS OF IMPRUPRIETY COMING FROM REPUBLICANS.

HE'S A FLAWED CANDIDATE.

I DO THINK IT MAKES MUCH MORE LIKELY DEMOCRATS COULD CONTEND OR PERHAPS EVEN WIN.

GIVEN HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE ONE SEAT COULD MAKE IN THE MID-TERMS IN THE SENATE, I THINK YOU'LL SEE A DEMOCRATS PUTTING A LOT OF MONEY INTO THAT RACE.

WHETHER REPUBLICANS ARE GOING TO HAVE THE SAME STOMACH TO BACK PAXTON, I THINK, IS AN INTERESTING QUESTION AND ONE WE'LL HAVE TO BE WATCHING.

>> AT THE VERY LEAST REPUBLICANS WILL HAVE TO PUT MUCH MORE MONEY INTO THIS RACE WHERE THEY WEREN'T EXPECTING TO ASSUMING CORNYN WOULD WIN THE PRIMARY AND GET THE PRESIDENT'S ENDORSEMENT.

LET'S GET MORE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN KENTUCKY.

THAT WAS THE MOST EXPENSIVE HOUSE PRIMARY CAMPAIGN EVER TOTALING SOME $33 MILLION INCLUDING SOME $9 MILLION FROM APAC ALONE AND OTHER PRO- ISRAEL GROUPS.

MASSIE SEEMED TO NOD TO THIS IN WHAT WAS THE OPPOSITE OF A GRACIOUS CONCESSION.

LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID.

>> LISTEN, I WOULD --I WOULD HAVE COME OUT SOON, BUT I HAD TO CALL MY OPPONENT AND CONCEDE, AND IT TOOK A WHILE TO FIND ED GALLREIN IN TEL AVIV.

>> SO ASIDE FROM THAT BLATANT ANTI- SEMITIC TROPE, HOW MUCH OF MASSIE'S LOSS DO YOU THINK WAS ATTRIBUTED TO APAC'S FUNDING HERE?

OR WERE THERE OTHER ISSUES GIVEN HIS CONCERNS OVER THE LACK OF FOCUS AND THE LACK OF ATTENTION THAT THE DEMOCRAT --THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF WERE GIVING TO THE EPSTEIN FILES AND OBVIOUSLY TO THE ECONOMY AND THE WAR IN IRAN?

>> LOOK, I THINK FUNDING AGAINST MASSIE CERTAINLY DIDN'T HELP HIM, BUT I THINK THIS FUNDAMENTALLY COMES DOWN TO HIS FEUD WITH TRUMP.

MASSIE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A VERY HETERODOX REPUBLICAN.

HE'S SORT OF LIBERTARIAN WITH ECCENTRIC VIEWS AND SOMETIMES ECCENTRIC WAYS OF EXPRESSING THEM, AND HE'S STILL BEEN ELECTED SEVEN TIMES IN THAT DISTRICT.

SO THE FACT THAT HE LOST HERE I THINK COMES DOWN ESSENTIALLY TO HIM CROSSING TRUMP, AND THAT IS ON THE QUESTION OF BACKING ISRAEL AND THE WAR WITH IRAN.

IT IS ON THE EPSTEIN FILES.

AGAIN, THESE ARE PLACES WHERE WE HAVE SEEN MASSIE BE CONSISTENT OVER THE YEARS.

AND WHAT HAS CHANGED IS THE WILLINGNESS OF TRUMP AND PEOPLE WORKING WITH TRUMP TO REALLY PUT A CONCERTED EFFORT INTO KNOCKING HIM OUT.

>> SO, AGAIN, IF TRUMP HAD --IF HE HAD WON TRUMP'S ENDORSEMENT THEN ARE YOU SUGGESTING HE LIKELY WOULD HAVE WON THIS RACE?

>> I THINK THERE WOULDN'T BE A RACE.

I MEAN, ED GALLREIN WAS BASICALLY HAND PICKED BY THE WHITE HOUSE TO RUN HERE.

SOMEONE MIGHT HAVE RUN AGAINST HIM BECAUSE HE IS A LITTLE BIT UNUSUAL, BUT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THIS KIND OF THING.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A RUMP.

AND I THINK IN THE PAST MASSIE HAS COURTED TRUMP'S INDORSEMENT FOR EXACTLY THAT REASON.

THAT HAS WORKED FOR HIM IN THE PAST.

THIS TIME HE WENT TOO FAR TRYING TO MAKE NICE WITH TRUMP.

>> AND HE RAN ON THAT, TOO, AS SORT OF RENEGADE OUTLIER WHO WAS UP AGAINST TRUMP ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES.

LET'S TURN TO PENNSYLVANIA.

WE SAW A RANGE OF DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES WIN THEIR PRIMARIES ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM FROM FAR LEFT CHRIS ROBB, CHIEF OF POPULOUS BOB BROOKS.

LOOKING AT THESE DEMOCRATIC WINS WHAT WAS THE UNIFYING MESSAGE HERE?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE THESE CANDIDATES WHO ARE BACKED BY REALLY A WIDE SWATH OF THE PARTY.

THEY OFTEN HAVE THIS BACKING FROM THE LEFT, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE BACKING FROM PEOPLE LIKE JOSH SHAPIRO.

I THINK IN THIS ELECTION SOME MUCH OF THE MID- TERMS IS GOING TO BE PUSHING BACK ON TRUMP.

IN THAT SENTENCE IT'S EASY FOR DEMOCRATS TO UNIFY.

I THINK WE'RE STARTING TO SEE MORE HINTS OF WHAT A DEMOCRATIC PARTY MIGHT LOOK LIKE IN 2028 AND HOW THE PARTY WILL SORT OF TRY TO SHAPE ITSELF WHEN IT HAS TO RUN A MORE CONSTRUCTIVE PLATFORM THAN IT DOES IN THESE MID- TERM ELECTIONS.

>> AND JOSH SHAPIRO ALL ALONG HAS SAID HE'S NOT FOCUSED ON 2028, HE'S FOCUSED ON HIS JOB AS GOVERNOR, BUT THAT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE HEARD THAT LINE FROM A POTENTIAL PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.

AND JOSH SHAPIRO HIMSELF IS ACTIVELY TRYING TO FLIP FOUR HOUSE SEATS BLUE IN NOVEMBER, AS HE IS RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION HIMSELF.

HOW MUCH OF THAT IS SHAPING HIS STRATEGY, IF IN FACT, HE WERE TO LOOK AHEAD TO 2028?

>> I THINK ONE THING THAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT SHAPIRO IS HE'S NOT ONLY SAYING HE'S NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO 2028, BUT THERE ARE PLACES HE SEEMS TO BE PUSHING AGAINST THE KIND OF CONVENTIONAL WISDOM IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND I THINK THAT'S INTERESTING POSITIONING.

YOU KNOW, WHAT MATTERS, I THINK, TO SEE MANY DEMOCRATS RIGHT NOW IS WINNING.

AND THEY MIGHT HAVE FAVORED CANDIDATES OR FAVORED STRAINS OF THE PARTY, BUT WHAT THEY REALLY WANT TO DO IS TO DEFEAT TRUMP.

SO SHAPIRO IS ABLE TO WIN AND ABLE TO CARRY OTHER CANDIDATES ALONG WITH HIM, I THINK THAT SETS HIM UP AT A GOOD PLACE.

>> AND THAT DOES APPEAR TO BE HIS MESSAGE AT LEAST, RIGHT, IS FOCUS ON THE DEFEAT OF TRUMP.

HOW DOES THAT ALIGN WITH WHAT HAS HISTORICALLY BEEN OR AT LEAST MOST RECENTLY BEEN THE DEMOCRATIC STRATEGY AND THEIR LINE DESCRIBING THEMSELVES A BIG TENT PARTY?

BECAUSE NOW WE ARE SEEING THIS SORT OF BACK AND FORTH AS TO WHETHER THERE'S ROOM FOR THE MORE CENTRIST CANDIDATES VERSUS SOME OF THE MORE FAR-LEFT PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES.

WHO DO THE REPUBLICANS AT THIS POINT SEE AS MORE OF A THREAT?

>> I THINK REPUBLICANS ARE WORRIED ABOUT SOMEBODY LIKE A JOSH SHAPIRO BECAUSE HE --HE SEEMS ABLE TO APPEAL TO THE MIDDLE.

BUT THEY HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT HE CAN MAKE IT THROUGH A DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY.

CERTAINLY WE SAW IN 2020 A LOT OF DEMOCRATS FELT LIKE THEY HAD TO RUN LEFT TO TRY TO WIN THE PRIMARY.

BUT THE PERSON WHO WON, JOE BIDEN, IS THE PERSON WHO DIDN'T REALLY MOVE FAR-LEFT IN THAT PRIMARY.

SO IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A PARADOX THERE.

ALL OF THESE THINGS I THINK CAN COEXIST FOR NOW.

BUT IT IS IN A 2028 RACE WHERE TRUMP IS OUT OF THE WAY AND IS NOT THE MAJOR TOPIC, THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE SOME I THINK MESSY FIGHTS AMONG DEMOCRATS.

OR ELSE WE'RE GOING TO SEE SOMEBODY WHO'S ABLE TO COME TOGETHER AND KIND OF SYNTHESIZE THOSE STRAINS INTO SOMETHING THAT CAN WIN.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT 2026 BECAUSE THERE IS ALSO THIS PARADOX OF TRUMP SHOWING HIS STRENGTH WITHIN THE MAGA BASE, WITHIN THE PARTY.

BUT NATIONALLY HE'S SEEING NOW SOME OF THE WORST APPROVAL RATINGS IN EITHER OF HIS TERMS AT 36%.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU HAVE AMERICANS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE ECONOMY, THE DIRECTION OF THE ECONOMY, HERE RISING GAS PRICES, AND OBVIOUSLY AN UNPOPULAR WAR IN IRAN.

AND I'M WONDERING HOW THIS LINE FROM THE PRESIDENT, WHICH HE SEEMS TO BE DOUBLING DOWN ON, IS GOING TO SIT WITH VOTERS GOING INTO THE MID-TERMS.

LET'S PLAY IT.

>> WAS THERE ANY NEGOTIATING WITH IRAN, MR.

PRESIDENT, TO WHAT EXTENT ARE AMERICANS FINANCIAL SITUATIONS MOTIVATING YOU TO MAKE A DEAL?

>> NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT.

THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS WHEN I'M TALKING ABOUT IRAN, THEY CAN'T HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

I DON'T THINK ABOUT AMERICANS' FINANCIAL SITUATION.

I DON'T THINK ABOUT ANYBODY.

>> THAT WAS MAY 12th.

JUST TODAY HE DOUBLED DOWN WHEN ASKED A SIMILAR QUESTION ABOUT THE STATE OF THE ECONOMY, CONCERNS AMONGST AMERICANS.

HE SAYS THAT'S JUST PEANUTS COMPARED TO WHAT A NUCLEAR CAPABLE IRAN WOULD LOOK LIKE.

HOW CONCERNED ARE REPUBLICANS WITH THAT MESSAGING?

AND ARE WE SEEING IT HELP DEMOCRATS AT ALL AT THIS POINT?

>> WELL, I THINK REPUBLICANS ARE BESIDE THEMSELVES LISTENING TO THIS.

AND WE SEE DEMOCRATS ALTHOUGH VERY UNPOPULAR IN THEIR APPROVAL DOING WELL IN THE GENERIC BALLOT FOR THE HOUSE.

AND I ACTUALLY THINK THERE'S A CONNECTION BETWEEN THESE SORTS OF COMMENTS AND THESE PRIMARY RACES.

I THINK THE IRONY IS THAT TRUMP WOULD REALLY BENEFIT FROM A REPUBLICAN CONGRESS THAT WAS MORE ABLE AND WILLING TO PUSH BACK ON HIM, THAT MIGHT HAVE RESTRAINED HIM ON THE IRAN WAR, THAT MIGHT FEEL LIKE THEY CAN CHALLENGE THESE KIND OF STATEMENTS AND PUSH HIM TO FOCUS MORE ON THESE KITCHEN TABLE ISSUES.

BUT BECAUSE HE, YOU KNOW, WILL COME DOWN HARD ON ANY REPUBLICAN WHO CROSSES HIM AND MAKES AN EFFORT TO DEFEAT THEM IN A PRIMARY LIKE THOMAS MASSIE OR LIKE JOHN CORNYN TO SOME EXTENT, THEY'RE AFRAID TO DO THAT.

SO THE STRENGTH WE SEE IN THESE PRIMARIES I THINK IS ALSO THE WEAKNESS WE'RE SEEING WITH THE GENERAL ELECTORATE, AND THAT MAY CAUSE PROBLEMS FOR REPUBLICANS IN NOVEMBER.

>> WELL, WE HAVE A POTENTIAL BLUE WAVE NOW CRASHING INTO REALTIME, GERRYMANDERING REPUBLICAN LED STATES ARE NOW AGGRESSIVELY REDRAWING THEIR VOTING DISTRICTS FOLLOWING SUPREME COURT'S WEAKENING OF THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.

WHICH FORCE DO YOU THINK ULTIMATELY WILL DRIVE VOTERS TO THE POLLS IN NOVEMBER?

THE BLUE WAVE THAT DEMOCRATS ARE HOPING TO ANTICIPATE OR THE SUPREME COURT TENDING TO SEEM TO HELP THEIR OPPONENTS?

>> LOOK, THE SUPREME COURT DECISION AND THESE ALSO REDISTRICTING CASES IN THE STATES ARE OBVIOUSLY VERY GOOD FOR REPUBLICANS.

BUT THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH THEY CAN DO.

YOU CAN DRAW DISTRICTS THAT ARE HELPFUL, BUT I THINK YOU CAN ONLY --IT'S LIKE BUILDING A SEA WALL.

IT WILL HOLD BACK SOME OF A FLOOD, BUT IT CAN'T HOLD BACK ALL OF IT.

SO THAT'S WHY I THINK A LOT OF THE SMARTEST ANALYSTS STILL SEE DEMOCRATS AS A FAVORITE.

MAYBE NOT A FAVORITE TO TAKE A HUGE LEAD IN NOVEMBER, BUT CERTAINLY A FAVORITE TO TAKE THE HOUSE.

BECAUSE VOTER SENTIMENT COMES DOWN TO THESE REALLY BASIC ISSUES.

THEY'RE UPSET ABOUT THE WAR.

THEY'RE UPSET ABOUT AFFORDABILITY, AND THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY LIKE THE WAY TRUMP CONDUCTS HIMSELF ON THE JOB.

>> AND SO BASED ON THE DATA THAT WE'RE NOW SEEING FROM THESE PRIMARIES, WHAT IS THE ONE HEADLINE YOU ARE --LISTEN, ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN ESPECIALLY UNDER A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

MONTHS FEEL LIKE YEARS.

BUT FROM WHAT WE'RE SEEING TODAY, HOW CAN THAT REFLECT UPON SOME OF THE RESULTS WE SHOULD EXPECT IN NOVEMBER?

>> I THINK WHAT I'D SAY IS THE MAGA BASE REMAINS VERY STRONG.

IT'S NOT SPLINTERING, BUT IT IS SHRINKING, AND THAT'S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM FOR REPUBLICANS.

THAT'S WHY REPUBLICANS ARE AT A DISADVANTAGE IN NOVEMBER.

THEY SIMPLY DON'T HAVE AS MANY VOTERS, AND TRUMP SEEMS TO BE DRIVING SOME OF THE ONES THEY HAVE AWAY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

DAVID A. GRAHAM, ALWAYS A PLEASURE HAVING YOU ON THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NEXT TO CHINA AND HOT ON THE HEELS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VISIT, VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS BEEN IN BEIJING TODAY EMBRACING XI JINPING AND HAILING TIES BETWEEN THEIR COUNTRIES AS STRONGER THAN EVER.

>> OUR GOAL IS THE WELL- BEING AND PROSPERITY OF THE RUSSIAN AND CHINESE PEOPLES.

THESE UNSHAKABLE FOUNDATIONS HAVE ENABLED OUR RELATIONS TO SUCCESSFULLY WITHSTAND REPEATED TESTS OF STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE.

>> BUT AS THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT LOOKS EAST FOR SUPPORT, THE WAR IN UKRAINE IS TESTING HIS POWER AT HOME.

SO HOW DID PUTIN BECOME RUSSIA'S FOREVER LEADER?

AND COULD HISTORY HAVE TAKEN A DIFFERENT TURN?

MIKHEIL FISHMAN IS AN EXILED RUSSIAN JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR OF "THE SUCCESSOR.

AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM AMSTERDAM.

MIKHEIL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

IT'S A FASCINATING READ, AND I WANT TO GET TO THE BOOK IN JUST A MOMENT, BUT IF WE CAN TALK ABOUT SORT OF THE CURRENT LAY OF THE LAND WITH THE WAR, THE PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA VISITING CHINA JUST AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS THERE, AND REPORTS FROM THE ECONOMIST IN PUBLICS LIKE OURS SHOWING RUSSIA'S SPRING OFFENSIVE HAS ESSENTIALLY STALLED.

UKRAINE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MONTHS IS ACTUALLY CLAWING BACK MORE TERRITORY AND INFLICTING UP TO 35,000 RUSSIAN CASUALTIES A MONTH.

FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT IS THIS JUST A TEMPORARY LULL ON THE PART OF RUSSIA.

>> OR ARE WE REALLY WITNESSING A STRATEGIC TURNING POINT HERE IN THE WAR?

>> WELL, FIRST, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, AND I'M REALLY FLATTERED.

NOW GETTING BACK TO YOUR --TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON AT THE BATTLEFIELD AND WHY THEY'RE IN PUTIN'S WAR WITH UKRAINE, IT'S PROBABLY TOO EARLY TO SAY IF IT'S A STRATEGIC TURNING POINT OF THIS WAR.

BUT IT CERTAINLY LOOKS LIKE THE BALANCE OF MILITARY STRENGTH IN THIS WAR HAS SHIFTED AT LEAST FOR NOW.

AS YOU HAVE MENTIONED CORRECTLY, FOR THREE MONTHS ALREADY THE --RUSSIA'S DEFENSIVE AT THE BATTLEFIELD IS STALLED.

AND TO A LARGE EXTENT THIS IS DUE TO THE A. I.

-POWERED NEW UKRAINIAN MIDRANGE DRONES WHO SUCCESSFULLY HUNT RUSSIA'S MILITARY SUPPLIES BEHIND THE FRONTLINE, WHICH MAKES THE SO-CALLED --I THINK THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS THIS TERM NOW --KILL ZONE AT THE BATTLEFIELD MUCH MORE REINFORCED, I CAN SAY.

AND IT'S GETTING HARDER AND HARDER FOR RUSSIAN MILITARY TO GET THROUGH USING ITS INFILTRATION TACTICS.

AND WITH -- AS, AGAIN, YOU MENTIONED THE -- RUSSIA'S CONTRACT SOLDIERS.

RECRUITMENT PROBLEMS ARE BEGINNING TO SHOW.

AND GIVEN THE FACT THAT UKRAINE IS POURING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS -- NOT ONLY WITH UKRAINE BUT WITH EUROPEAN ALLIES --BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO PRODUCTION OF DRONES, IT IS VERY LIKELY -- IT'S LIKELY --IT MAY HAPPEN THAT AT SOME POINT, IN A FEW MONTHS TIME THIS KILL ZONE WILL BECOME LARGELY IMPASSABLE AT ALL.

WHICH MAKES --WILL MAKE PUTIN'S MAIN GOAL TO CAPTURE THE WHOLE DONETSK, DONBAS AREA MORE ELUSIVE THAN EVER.

>> YEAH, AND WE'VE WITNESSED OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS THE EVOLUTION OF THIS MODERN WARFARE WITH THIS TECHNOLOGY THAT THE UKRAINIANS THEMSELVES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CAPITALIZE ON AS A BUSINESS MODEL NOW THAT THEY ARE SHARING WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD INCLUDING THE MIDDLE EAST WITH THE WAR IN IRAN BY NOW.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT UKRAINE HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO, AND THAT IS BRING THE WAR LITERALLY TO VLADIMIR PUTIN'S DOORSTEPS THERE IN MOSCOW WITH ITS LARGEST DRONE ASSAULT OF THE YEAR --I THINK IT WAS 600 DRONES UKRAINE LAUNCHED TOWARD MOSCOW AND RUSSIA.

MORE THAN 500 OF THEM WERE INTERCEPTED, BUT SOME DID HIT REFINIES, RESIDENTIAL SUBURBS OF MOSKOW.

BUT HOW MUCH DOES BRINGING THE WAR TO THE CAPITAL THERE SHAKE VLADIMIR PUTIN'S NARRATIVE TO THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE THAT THEY ESSENTIALLY WILL BE SHIELDED FROM THIS WAR.

AS HE DESCRIBED AS THE SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION FOR SO LONG?

>> EXACTLY, IT CERTAINLY DOES.

IT CERTAINLY AFFECTS PUTIN'S POSITION AND THE UNDERSTANDING WHERE THIS WAR IS GOING.

EVEN THE MOST PROMINENT, WHICH MEANS THE MOST HYPOCRITICAL STATE PROPAGANDISTS NOW ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE WAR WITH UKRAINE HAS ENTERED A NEW PHASE-IN WHICH RUSSIA IS FORCED TO DEFEND ITSELF AT HOME AGAINST UKRAINIAN DRONES AND MISSILES.

IN MOSKOW THESE DAYS, BUT BEFORE THAT IN -- IN UKRAINIAN DRONES ARE STEADILY WEEK BY WEEK EXPANDING THE --THE AREA OF THEIR STRIKES INSIDE RUSSIA.

AND THAT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SITUATION.

WE ALSO KNOW PUTIN HAVE TO SQUEEZE HIS MILITARY PARADE, WHICH WAS DESIGNED TO -- WHICH IS INITIALLY DESIGNED AS HIS MOST VALUABLE SHOW OF STRENGTH, WHICH NOW BEFORE HIS RISE TURNED INTO A DEMONSTRATION OF HIS WITNESS, AS HE WAS AFRAID THAT UKRAINIAN DRONES WOULD STRIKE HIS WEAPONRY BEFORE THE PARADE, AS THEY WERE WAITING FOR THE SHOW TO BEGIN, RIGHT?

SO THAT'S A VERY DIFFERENT STORY NOW.

AND IT'S ACTUALLY VERY VISIBLE.

AND THE MOOD IN --ACROSS THE RUSSIAN ELITE, THE RUSSIAN MILITARY BLOGGERS, EVEN AS I MENTIONED RUSSIAN MOST INFAMOUS PROPAGANDIST IS NOW DIFFERENT THAN IT WAS A MONTH OR TWO --TWO MONTHS AGO.

THE MOOD IS NOW THAT PUTIN IS NOT WINNING THIS WAR, AND THIS WILL --AND THE MORE ACROSS RUSSIAN SOCIETY AND WE KNOW FROM INDEPENDENT POSTERS AS WELL AS FROM STATE POSTERS THAT THE MOOD IS ALSO DARKENING.

THAT THIS --THERE WAS A HUGE HOPE WHEN DONALD TRUMP ENTERED THE SCENE MORE THAN A YEAR AGO THAT HE WOULD HELP PUTIN TO END THIS WAR ON WHATEVER TERMS, BUT THE WAR WOULD END AND THINGS COULD GET BACK TO NORMAL AS THEY WERE BEFORE THE WAR STARTED IN FEBRUARY 2022.

AND NOW THE MOOD IS THIS WILL NEVER END.

AND THE FEELING OF INSECURITY IS GROWING WITH EVERY DAY.

EVERYONE CAN BE -- EVERY BUILDING, EVERY RUSSIAN REGION CAN BE HIT WITH UKRAINIAN DRONE OR MISSILE ANY MOMENT NOW.

THAT'S NOW THE GENERAL FEELING.

>> YEAH.

AND THE FACT THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN HAD TO ESSENTIALLY ASK PRESIDENT TRUMP TO AGREE TO A CEASE-FIRE WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY OVER THE COURSE OF THOSE FEW DAYS LEEING UP TO THE PARADE IS VERY TELLING AS WELL.

I WANT O ASK YOU ABOUT THE REPORTING THAT ALL COMES TO A HEAD ABOUT WHERE VLADIMIR PUTIN IS AT THIS POINT TODAY.

WHETHER HE IS HIDDEN IN A BUNKER DAILY NOW, EVEN MORE SO REMOVED FROM SOCIETY, MORE PARANOID.

HIS COOKS AND BODY GUARDS BANNED FROM PUBLIC TRANSPORT.

HE'S SEEING MORE AND MORE OF HIS TOP GENERALS BEING ASSASSINATED IN THE COUNTRY'S CAPITAL AS WELL.

THAT'S LED SOME PUBLICATIONS LIKE "THE ECONOMIST" TO QUESTION WHETHER VLADIMIR PUTIN IS ACTUALLY LOSING HIS GRIP OF CONTROL OVER THE COUNTRY.

AND I WAS WATCHING YOUR WEEKLY SHOW, WHICH I HAVE FOR MANY NOW.

IN ENGLISH IT'S "IT'S SO ON. "

AND YOUR INTERPRETATION IS THE OPPOSITE, AT LEAST TEMPORARILY, THAT YOU THINK THIS IS A SIGN OF VLADIMIR PUTIN ACTUALLY HOLDING MORE CONTROL OVER THE COUNTRY, BECOMING MORE REPRESSIVE BECAUSE OF WHAT HE FEARS MAY BE EXTERNAL OR EVEN INTERNAL FORCES TRYING TO -- TRYING TO SEE HIM OUT OF OFFICE.

>> WELL, THAT WOULD BE AN EXAGGERATION OF WHAT I SAID ON MY SHOW, PROBABLY A SLIGHT EXAGGERATION.

BUT MY POINT WAS AND IS THAT --THAT CERTAINLY THINGS ARE CHANGING FOR --FOR PUTIN.

THE SITUATION IN RUSSIA IS CHANGING.

THE MOOD IS CHANGING.

THE MOOD WITHIN THE ELITE IS -- IS DEFINITELY SHIFTING.

THAT'S THE MAJOR FACTOR.

THE CORE FACTOR IS THE WAR WHICH IS NOW A NEVER ENDING WAR, AND THE FEELING THAT PUTIN DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO END IT, AND NOBODY KNOWS WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP AND WHERE IT'S ALL HEADING.

ALSO VERY IMPORTANT FACTOR IS ECONOMY.

JUST A FEW DAYS AGO THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT HAD TO ALLOW THE EXPECTATION OF ECONOMIC GROWTH THIS YEAR TO BASICALLY STAGNATION.

AND PEOPLE ARE ALREADY FEELING THE PAIN AND HAVE TO --HAVE TO SPEND LESS ON EVEN FOOD.

AND THIRD, AND THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT FACTOR IS PUTIN'S ASSAULT ON INTERNET FREEDOM AND SOCIAL NETWORKS, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY TELEGRAM AND MOBILE INTERNET DURING RECENT MONTHS --WHICH IS STRONGLY OPPOSED ACROSS THE WHOLE NATION.

WHOEVER YOU ARE, JUST A COMMON -- COMMON PEOPLE FROM -- IN A SMALL TOWN OR A MEMBER OF PUTIN'S GOVERNMENT.

>> OR A SOLDIER ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

>> OR A BUSINESSMAN.

OR A SOLDIER ON THE BATTLEFIELD OR A MILITARY BLOGGER, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY AGAINST IT.

AND THIS ACTUALLY ADDED TO THIS FEELING THAT PUTIN IS LEADING RUSSIA TO TOTALLY DIFFERENT DIRECTION THAN EVERYBODY EXPECTED.

AND THIS IS THE SITUATION THAT PUTIN IS IN.

SO HE HAS A CHOICE WHAT TO DO.

EITHER TO BACK DOWN OR THERE ARE BASICALLY ALWAYS THREE OPTIONS.

TO BACK DOWN, TO BUY LOYALTY WITH MONEY, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE MUCH.

AND THIRD OPTION IS TO RETALIATE AND TO -- TO INCREASE REPRESSION.

AND THAT'S THE MOST LIKELY, AS WE ALL NOW KNOW WHO IS MR.

PUTIN --THIS IS THE MOST LIKELY PATH THAT HE WILL CHOOSE.

>> TO BECOME EVEN MORE AND MORE REPRESSIVE, AS HE'S CONCERNED ABOUT HIS HOLD ON POWER.

>> YES, BECAUSE -- >> AND YOU'VE ALSO SAID THAT THIS WAR ENDS WHEN VLADIMIR PUTIN'S REIGN ENDS BECAUSE YOU EQUATE VLADIMIR PUTIN NOW WITH WAR.

AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT BORIS NEMTSOV, YOUR SUBJECT HERE OF YOUR BOOK, "THE SUCCESSOR," HAD BEEN PRESCIENT ENOUGH THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER AS HE WAS A RISING POLITICIAN, PERHAPS HEIR APPARENT TO BORIS YELTSIN AND THEN AN OPPONENT TO VLADIMIR PUTIN.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HE ALWAYS SIGNALED TO THE COUNTRY, THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN WILL BRING WAR TO THE COUNTRY, AND HERE WE ARE NOW.

BORIS NEMTSOV WAS MURDERED, ASSASSINATED IN MOSCOW IN 2015.

AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT HIM IN THIS BOOK AS A LEADER OF WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN A DIFFERENT RUSSIA.

JUST TALK ABOUT WHAT THAT RUSSIA COULD HAVE LOOKED LIKE.

>> THAT'S A --YES, THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION, AND IT'S ALWAYS VERY HARD TO IMAGINE A DIFFERENT RUSSIA ESPECIALLY TODAY.

NOT ONLY WHEN I WAS FINISHING MY BOOK, WHICH WAS --WHICH WAS EVEN BEFORE THE WAR STARTED.

ALTHOUGH, THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE VERSION IS AN ABATED VERSION AND IT ACTUALLY ENDS WITH THE INVASION --WITH PUTIN'S INVASION.

BUT CERTAINLY NOW WHEN --WHEN WE ALL KNOW HOW THE STORY ENDED, AND WE ALL KNOW THAT THIS ASPIRING YOUNG, LET'S SAY PROPER DEMOCRACY, THIS NEW STATE OF RUSSIA WHICH STARTED ITS JOURNEY IN THE LATE '80s, EARLY '90s, AND BROUGHT TO LIFE SO MANY ASPIRATIONS, HOPES, AND POLITICAL LEADERS AS BORIS NEMTSOV.

NOW TURNED INTO ONE OF THE MOST BRUTAL DICTATORSHIPS OF MODERN TIMES.

SO HOW WOULD --COULD IT BE DIFFERENT?

THAT'S A --SO MY ANSWER TO THAT WOULD BE THAT SHOULD BORIS NEMTSOV BECOME THE PRESIDENT, THE STORY WOULD BE VERY DIFFERENT.

ACTUALLY ALMOST 21 WOULD BECOME DIFFERENT AND ACCEPT PUTIN, THE STOR EWOULD BECOME DIFFERENT.

IF NEMTSOV BECAME PRESIDENT INSTEAD OF PUTIN IN THE YEAR 2011, LET'S IMAGINE THAT, HE WOULD STILL HAVE TO OPPOSE THIS STRONG, CONSERVATIVE WINGS, THE FRUSTRATION OF THE YELTSIN ERA -- POLITICAL BANKRUPTCY, ECONOMIC BANKRUPTCY OF 1998.

>> CORRUPTION.

>> AND THIS WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO OVERCOME.

BUT IF HE WOULD BECOME PRESIDENT, HE WOULD MOST PROBABLY --WHAT IS CERTAIN, HE WOULD NOT BE PRESIDENT TODAY.

HE WOULD MOST LIKELY LOSE HIS NEXT ELECTION.

AND WHAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED IS THAT THE --THE QUESTION AT THE CORE OF RUSSIAN --RUSSIAN EVIL CIRCLE, WHICH MAKES IT END AT THE SAME POINT IT STARTED --IT STARTED AND ALWAYS MAKING THE WHOLE, THE SAME LOOP INSIDE THE HISTORY.

THE MAIN QUESTION THAT WHEN YOU ARE POLITICAL LEADER, YOU HAVE SO MUCH AT STAKE THAT IF YOU LOSE, YOU LOSE NOT ONLY YOUR POLITICAL POSITION, NOT ONLY YOUR SOCIAL STATUS, BUT ALSO YOUR CAPITAL, VERY LIKELY YOUR FREEDOM, AND MAYBE LIFE.

AND THAT WAS THE CRUCIAL QUESTION FOR RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP DURING THE '90s AND ALSO NOW.

IMAGINE PUTIN LOSING POWER NOW.

SO THIS EVIL CIRCLE WOULD BE BROKEN WITH -- IF ANYONE, ESPECIALLY HIMSELF, WOULD RULE RUSSIA FOR AT LEAST FOUR YEARS.

>> LET'S, AS WE CLOSE NOW, BECAUSE WE SEE WHAT THE ALTERNATIVE HAS BEEN, AND THAT IS THE REALITY OF LIFE NOW UNDER PRESIDENT PUTIN FOR SOME 26 YEARS WITH U. N. EXILE, NO REAL OPPOSITION FOLLOWING THE MURDER OF NEMTSOV, AND THEN --THAT'S WHEN YOU AND I LAST SPOKE.

AND JOURNALISTS LIKE YOURSELF NOW LIVING IN EXILE.

I WANT TO END THE SHOW WITH A BRIEF GLIMPSE FROM OUR VIEWERS OF WHAT BORIS NEMTSOV'S MESSAGE WAS FOR RUSSIANS AT THE TIME.

>> WE SHOULD SAY NO TO WAR.

WE SHOULD SAY ENOUGH OF IDIOCY.

WE SHOULD SAY RUSSIA AND UKRAINE WITHOUT PUTIN, RUSSIA AND UKRAINE WITHOUT PUTIN.

>> ALSO IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT FROM DAY ONE HE WAS AGAINST THE ANNEXATION OF CRIMEA AS WELL.

MIHALE FISHMAN, I SUGGEST EVERYONE READ THIS BOOK, AND THANK YOU AS ALWAYS FOR YOUR REPORTING.

WE CAN STILL FOLLOW IT ON TV RAIN.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, THERE MAY BE GROWING DIVISIONS WITHIN TRUMP'S MAGA BASE, BUT THE REJECTION OF FEMINISM APPEARS TO BE A UNIFYING FORCE FOR RIGHT-WING MALES.

WITH THE HELP OF SOCIAL MEDIA, MISOGYNISTIC VIEWS ARE BEING INCREASINGLY NORMALIZED.

THE ATLANTIC STAFF WRITER IT'S THE COVER OF HER NEW PIECE.

SHE JOINS HAR VAE VENE VAUSEN.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

YOU WROTE A RECENT PIECE IN THE ATLANTIC WHERE YOU DESCRIBE THIS CALLED CALLED MASCULINISM.

>> PEOPLE MAY HAVE HEARD ABOUT THE MANOSPHERE WHO MIGHT TALK ABOUT WHETHER IT'S BOOSTING YOUR TESTOSTERONE OR MAKING YOURSELF MORE ATTRACTIVE, WORKING OUT, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

AND I THINK THIS IS ESSENTIALLY THE POLITICAL WING OF THAT, ESSENTIALLY.

MASCULINISM IS AN ANTIDOTE OR BACKLASH TO FEMINISM SAYING THAT MEN HAVE BEEN SHAMED FOR BEING MEN.

WOMEN HAVE FEMINIZED SOCIETY IN WAYS THE MASCULINESTS CONTEST.

ONE OF THE BIG EXAMPLES OF THAT IS THEY THINK THAT EMPATHY IS NOW TOO DOMINANT IN POLITICS.

THAT WOMEN ARE TOO EMPATHETIC AND TOO MANY FEMALE POLITICIANS THEY FEEL SORRY FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS OR VIOLENT CRIMINALS, AND SO BORDERS AREN'T BEING FORCED, LAWS AREN'T BEING ENFORCED.

SO THEY HAVE THIS REALLY TOP TO BOTTOM CRITIQUE OF SOCIETY AND EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED, WELL, IN THE LAST 100 YEARS OR MORE.

AT THE VERY EXTREME YOU WANT MEN WHO WANT WOMEN TO BE LEGALLY PAID LESS THAN MEN, AND SOME WHO DON'T WANT WOMEN TO VOTE IN EXTREME CASES.

>> YOU START BY TALKING ABOUT SOMEONE NAMED DOUGLAS WILSON WHO HAS A LOT OF POLICY DESCRIPTION, AND HAS ALSO THE EAR OF THE DEFENSE SECRETARY OR SECRETARY OF WAR PETE HEGSETH.

YOU WRITE THAT WILSON BELIEVES THAT WOMEN SHOULD, QUOTE, NOT ORDINARILY HOLD POLITICAL OFFICE AND SHOULD NEVER SERVE IN COMBAT ROLES IN THE MILITARY.

HUSBANDS SHOULD HAVE DOMINION OVER MISBEHAVING WIVES, WEIGHT, SPENDING HABITS, AND CHOICE OF TELEVISION PROGRAMS.

I MEAN, HE'S PART OF THIS MOVEMENT, AND YOU WRITE HE'S THE CO-FOUNDER OF THE COMMUNION OF REFORM CHURCHES BASED IN SKOW, IDAHO.

TELL ME HOAR ABOUT HIM.

>> HE IS A FASCINATING FIGURE.

HE'S BEEN BLOGGING OVER 20 YEARS NOW, AND HE'S WRITTEN AN EXTRAORDINARY NUMBER OF SELF-PUBLISHED BOOKS.

HE'S FOUND A LITTLE EMPIRE IN IDAHO.

SO HE HAS A PUBLISHING IMPRINT SEVERAL MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY WORKS FOR, HAS STREAMING DOCUMENTARIES, AND HAS SEVERAL CHURCHES AROUND THE U. S. HE'S BEEN SAYING THE SAME THINGS FOR A REALLY LONG TIME, BUT HE FEELS HIS MOMENT HAS COME TO SOME EXTENT.

HE FEELS THERE IS NOW AN OPENNESS TO THE THINGS HE'S SAYING.

I, YEAH THAT LINK TO HEGSETH IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

SO DOUG WILSON WENT INTO THE PENTAGON IN FEBRUARY, LED A PRAYER SERVICE AND TOLD EVERYBODY THERE TO BE UNEMBARRASSED, UNAPOLOGETIC CHRISTIANS.

THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THAT THERE'S NOT ALL FLAVORS OF CHRIS CHUNTY.

HE'S A CALVINIST, A PROTESTANT, AND HE WOULD LIKE AMERICA TO BE A THEOCRACY, AND WOULDN'T LIKE EXPRESSIONS OF CATHOLICISM IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE.

SO HE'S GOT A VERY PARTICULAR VISION OF WHAT HE THINKS AMERICA SHOULD LOOK LIKE, AND IT IS A VERY NARROW ONE, VERY FEW PEOPLE NEED TO APPLY, REALLY.

>> THESE VOICES LIKE MR.

WILSON WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED FRINGE, AND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THEY ARE FAR MORE MAIN STREAMED PERHAPS BECAUSE OF THEIR --THE PEOPLE WHO SUBSCRIBE TO THEM LIKE PETE HEGSETH.

>> AND ALSO BECAUSE OF THE REACH OF THE INTERNET.

FOR BETTER OR WORSE WE HAVE MOVED INTO A MUCH MORE FREE-FOR- ALL MEDIA ENVIRONMENT.

YOU KNOW, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A TIME WHEN PEOPLE LIKE DOUG WILSON WOULD HAVE BEEN KIND OF TREATED LIKE A CURIOSITY.

AND WHAT ACTUALLY HAS HAPPENED IS HE'S BEEN ABLE TO BUILD HIS OWN APPARATUS, RIGHT THERE'S NO POINT YOU OR ME, NO PLATFORMING -- DOUGLAS WILSON HAS BUILT HIS OWN PLATFORM AND IT'S POPULAR AND SUCCESSFUL.

YOU COULD SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT THE MANOSPHERE INFLUENCERS.

NICK FUENTES, WHO I MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE, HE HAS BEEN BANNED FROM A WHOLE LOT OF SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS BUT NOT ALL OF THEM.

AND ALSO HE HAS A ARMY OF FANS WHO PICK UP THINGS HE SAYS AND DISTRIBUTE THEM.

THAT WAS ALSO SOMETHING THAT WORKED VERY WELL FOR ANDREW TATE.

SO THERE HAS BEEN THIS DEMOCRATIZING OF THE DISCOURSE, WHICH HAS BEEN WONDERFUL IN LOTS OF WAYS AND GIVEN PEOPLE A CHANCE TO SPEAK, BUT IT WOULD ONCE HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED PRETTY EXTREME TO PUT IN FRONT OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

>> HOW IS THAT OVERLAP?

RIGHT?

YOU HAVE ON THE ONE HAND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO HAS RELIGIOUS MOTIVATIONS, AND THEN HOW DOES THAT SLIDE OVER INTO KIND OF POLITICAL ACTION AND ACTIVITY WHEN IT COMES TO THIS YOUNGER GENERATION OF MEN WHO MIGHT BE LISTENING TO HIM, BUT THEY MIGHT ALSO BE YOUTUBE INFLUENCERS THAT ARE SELLING KIND OF HOW TO LOOK BETTER AND HOW TO TAKE THE RIGHT VITAMINS OR WHATEVER IT IS?

>> RIGHT.

AND ALL OF IT'S WRAPPED TOGETHER WITH KIND OF ANTEELITIST MESSAGE, RIGHT?

SO THEY ARE DOING THIS TO YOU, THEY ARE ARE KEEPING FROM, YOU KNOW, EXPRESSING YOUR MAS LN RESPONSIBILITIES.

SO THERE IS A KIND OF ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT TONE THAT GOES ALL THE WAY THROUGH IT.

THE OTHER THING I FOUND WHEN I WAS RESEARCHING THIS WAS THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE FEW THINGS THAT REALLY BINDS THE ENTIRETY OF THE NEW RIGHT, THE ONLINE RIGHT TOGETHER.

THAT REALLY HADN'T OCCURRED TO ME BEFORE.

IF WE LOOK AT THE MAGA MOVEMENT THROUGH THERE ARE PRETTY DEEP SPLITS ON WHETHER THE TECH COMPANIES SHOULD BE BETTER REGULATED, WHETHER OR NOT ISRAEL SHOULD BE AS A STAUNCH ALLY OF THE U. S. OR TREATED AT MORE ARMS WAY, PROTECTIONS VERSUS TARIFFS.

THERE ARE MORE IDEOLOGICAL DIVIDES IN THAT MOVEMENT.

BUT THE ONE THING EVERYBODY CAN AGREE ON IS THERE'S A FEW TOO BOSSY WOMEN IN THE PLACE TELLING EVERYBODY WHAT TO DO, AND WOULDN'T EVERYONE BE HAPFER YR IF WE REVERT TO A 1950s.

>> BRINGING TOGETHER AN UNLIKELY CONSTELLATION OF PASTORS, POSTERS, SENATORS, PREACHERS, INFLUENCERS, POD CASTERS, AND FAN BOYS.

WAS THERE ANY KIND OF TRIGGERING EVENT?

DO THEY SEE THE SUCCESS AS PRESIDENT TRUMP AS A LICENSE?

>> I THINK TRUMP IS DEFINITELY A BIG PART OF IT.

YOU KNOW, HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN SOMEONE WHO'S TRADED ON HIS EDGINESS AND HIS WILLING TO TAKE ON WHATEVER YOU MIGHT CALL IT, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

HE ALSO, YOU KNOW, HAS RUN AGAINST AND BEATEN TWO FEMALE OPPONENTS WHO ARE PRESENTED IN THIS WAY THE THAT THE MANOSPHERE HATES WHICH IS THIS MANAGERIAL BUREAUCRATIC CODDLING, LIKE WOMEN ARE KIND OF THE WORLD'S HR MANAGERS, THEIR LIKE THE WORLD'S NANNIES OR MUMS TELLING YOU WHAT TO DO.

YOU CAN'T SEE A FIGURE LIKE THIS WITHOUT TRUMP.

AND ALSO IN THIS COMMUNITY POPULAR WITH MEN IS BEING EDGY IS YOUR PASSPORT, YOUR CREDIBILITY KIND OF WAIVER TO GET YOU INTO THAT SPACE, THAT YOU'RE COOL, YOU'RE CHILL.

YOU DON'T MIND IF PEOPLE USE RACIST WORDS OR SEXIST WORDS.

YOU'RE NOT KIND OF SCOLD --ALL THESE IDEAS ABOUT THE LEFT --RICHARD WHO USED TO WIFE AS A WHITE NATIONALIST YOU SHOW OTHER PEOPLE YOU ARE BASE, YOU'RE COOL WITH THIS KIND OF STUFF.

AND YOU DO THAT BY SAYING RACIST OR SEXIST, LIKE ACTUALLY WOMEN SHOULDN'T VOTE.

AND IT'S SLIGHTLY EDGY, DELIBERATELY PROVOCATIVE, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE AROUND THIS MOVEMENT IF THEY WERE ALLOWED TO CONSTITUTE AMERICA'S POLITICAL LANDSCAPE, THAT IS WHAT THEY THINK SHOULD HAPPEN.

>> I COULD SEE SOMEONE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE SPOKE PERSON'S OFFICE SAYING, HEY, LOOK, PRESIDENT TRUMP KEEPS HIS ARM'S LENGTH FROM THIS.

WE'VE GOT THE SECRETARY OF EDUCATION, LINDA McMANN.

WE'VE GOT THE DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, TULSI GABBARD.

WE HAVE CABINET WOMEN WHO ARE HIGH RANKING OFFICIALS, SO WE'RE NOT SCULINESTS, WE'RE NOT TRYING TO COURT THAT VOTE.

>> I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE THE CLAIM TRUMP'S A FEMINIST.

THAT'S NOT A CLAIM HE'D MAKE HIMSELF.

HE'S CLEAR HAW NOT ILL AT EASE WITH WOMEN IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY.

ALTHOUGH I THINK THE ONLY PERSON WHO REALLY LIKES BEING IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY IS HIMSELF, SO IT'S ALL SLIGHTLY RELATIVE.

THERE ARE INTERESTING ISSUES SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE EXTREME THAN DONALD TRUMP.

THAT'S SOMETHING I THINK GETS UNDERRATED.

HE KEPT OFF FROM THE REPUBLICAN PLATFORM IN 2024 IN A FEDERAL NATIONWIDE ABORTION BAN, WHICH THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT HAS WANTED FOR A REALLY LONG TIME.

AND DONALD TRUMP HAD A SENSE THAT WAS TOO FAR.

THAT WOULD ACTUALLY BE THE KIND OF THING --IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE PEOPLE VOTE, YEAH, PEOPLE GENUINELY HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT ABORTION, BUT LOTS OF AMERICANS DO SUPPORT IT IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES.

SO DONALD TRUMP CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED THAT WAS A STEP TOO FAR.

AND THERE'S A SIMILAR THING I THINK THAT HAPPENS WITH, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THESE MASCULINEST IDEAS.

AT THE SAME TIME HE CAN BE VERY SEXIST, YOU KNOW.

HE TOLD A FEMALE REPORTER, QUIET, PIGGY.

THIS VERY BELITTLING SEXIST PUT DOWN I ACTUALLY FOUND SHOCKING.

I CAN'T REALLY IMAGINE GEORGE W. BUSH OR RECENT REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS DOING SUCH A THING.

>> IT'S INTERESTING RIGHT NOW WE ALSO SEEM TO BE IN A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE A LOT OF WOMEN WHO ARE EMBRACING THE TRADITIONAL WIFE OR TRIED PHILOSOPHY THAT ALIGNS WELL WITH THE MASCULINESTS, THAT THE WOMEN ARE OPTING THIS, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY'RE NOT BEING OPPRESSED INTO IT, THEY'RE CHOOSING IT.

>> YEAH, AND I THINK THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT.

IF ANY COUPLE IN AMERICA ACTUALLY GOES WE'D LIKE A TRADITIONAL SPLIT OF BREADWINNER AND HOMEMAKER AND MAYBE WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SOME ECONOMIC SACRIFICES TO DO IT, GOD BLESS THEM.

I'M ALL FOR IT.

THE DIFFERENCE IS NOT MAKING THAT CHOICE AND HAVING IT FORCED ON YOU.

IN A SENSE I THINK BOTH OF THEM ARE ENTREPRENEUR-LED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE PLAYING CHARACTERS ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT MAY NOT BE REFLECTED IN THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES THEMSELVES.

YOU KNOW, YOU SEE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE PREACHING THINGS AND LIVING A LIFESTYLE FOR THE BENEFIT OF, YOU KNOW, THE GRAM.

AND A LOT OF THINGS HAPPEN WITH TRIAD WIVES.

MOST OF THEM ARE ESSENTIALLY SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS.

THEIR CONTENT IS THEIR PRODUCT.

THEIR LIFESTYLE IS THEIR PRODUCT, SO THEY'RE JUST AS MUCH OF A FEMALE CEO.

THEY'RE PARTICIPATING IN THAT KIND OF CAPITALISTIC ECONOMY.

>> WE'VE HAD MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE ON THIS PROGRAM THAT SAY, LOOK, THERE IS A PROBLEM THAT YOUNG MEN ARE FACING RIGHT NOW.

THERE'S A LONELINESS CRISIS.

THEY'RE STRUGGLING FOR ECONOMIC VIABILITY.

IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT THAT AUDIENCE THAT MAKES THEM MORE VULNERABLE TO HEARING OR SUBSCRIBING TO MASCULINISM WHEN THEY SEE IT ONLINE?

>> THE THING I HEAR A LOT PARTICULARLY FROM PARENTS OF TEENAGE BOYS IS THAT THERE HAS BEEN THIS MESSAGE TO BOYS THAT THEY ARE IN SOME WAY INHERENTLY TOXIC, THAT THEY ARE SORT OF STAINED BY ORIGINAL SIN, OR THAT THEY ARE MINI-TRIARCHS IN WAITING.

IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I WAS A TEENAGER, BUT I CAN IMAGINE TEENAGE BOYS FEEL LIKE THIS.

YOU FEEL INSECURE.

YOU WANT PEOPLE TO LIKE YOU.

YOU DON'T HAVE A CV TO BOAST ABOUT, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

I THINK THAT AUDIENCE, YOU FEEL FOR THEM.

IF YOU'RE A 17-YEAR-OLD BOY WHO'S DESPERATE TO FIND A BOYFRIEND OR GIRLFRIEND, WHO DOESN'T HAVE A WEEKEND JOB, AND THEN YOU GET TOLD THERE'S ALL THESE WAYS TO BE AN ALPHA GUY, I CAN SEE WHY IT'S A REALLY APPEALING MESSAGE AND I CAN SEE WHY IT'S A REAL TURN OFF IF YOU GET TOLD SOMETHING'S WRONG WITH YOU AND BEING MAGA IS THE WRONG.

>> YOU RELATE TO FEMINISM.

ARE WE LOOK AT LARGE CYCLES HERE WHEN FEMINISM SUCCEEDS YOU HAVE THIS LARGE PUSH BACK?

>> I THINK THAT'S THE HISTORY OF FEMINISM IN AMERICA, REALLY, AND IT'S ALSO INTERLACED WITH ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL AND TECHNICAL CHANGES, SO THEY ALL TEND TO HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME.

I DON'T THINK YOU REALLY GET THE SECOND WAVE OF FEMINISM WITHOUT THE CONTRACEPTIVE PILL, WHICH JUST PUTS WOMEN IN CHARGE OF THEIR FERTILITY IN THE WAY THEY HAVEN'T BEFORE.

THEN YOU GET THIS TENSENESS, RIGHT?

IF WOMEN CAN SUPPORT THEMSELVES WITHOUT A MAN, HOW DO YOU KIND OF KEEP CONTROL OF THEM?

WHAT IF THEY DON'T HAVE CHILDREN.

>> WHAT IF THEY DON'T MARRIED?

I THINK IF YOU LOOK A LOT THROUGH THE ONLINE RIGHT NOW THOSE ARE REALLY BIG FEARS.

ONE OF THE BIG OBSESSIONS OF THE ONLINE RIGHT IS BIRTH RATES.

THAT IS THE SENSE THERE ARE PARTS OF THE WORLD HAVING A LOT MORE BABIES THAN THE DEVELOPED WORLD, AND IT IS FRAMED AS A SORT OF CIVILIZATIONAL THREAT.

BUT ALSO ABOUT IF WE GIVE WOMEN CHOICES, MAYBE THEY'LL MAKE CHOICES THAT WE DISAGREE WITH.

THOSE THINGS YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THEM IN A BROAD, HISTORICAL SWEEP, YEAH.

>> ONE OF THE PIECES OF DATA YOU HAVE IN THERE IS 83% OF REPUBLICAN MEN UNDER 50 YEARS OLD AGREE THAT SOCIETY HAS BECOME FEMININE.

NOW, WHETHER THEY CONTINUE TO HOLD THOSE VIEWS, I DON'T KNOW.

BUT THAT'S --THAT'S AN ENORMOUS NUMBER, AND THAT IS GOING TO BE THE GROUP THAT TAKES OVER THE PARTY.

>> I THINK IT'S REALLY INTERESTING THAT DATA BECAUSE IT'S NOT WRONG IN THE SENSE THAT, YOU KNOW, I WENT BACK 20 YEARS AND CONGRESS WAS 16% FEMALE.

3% OF THE S&P CEO s HAVE BEEN FEMALES.

THERE HAVE BEEN BIG ADVANCES.

SOME PEOPLE FOR THE FIRST TIME AROUND WILL HAVE A FEMALE BOSS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIFE.

ONE OF THE THINGS I WROTE ON FEMINISM IS HOW DIFFICULT IT CAN BE FOR MALE TEACHERS.

THEY CAN BE THE ONLY MAN IN THE STAFF ROOM.

IT WAS UNCOMFORTABLE FOR WOMEN ENTERING MALE- DOMINATED WORK FORCES AND FINDING THEY WERE THE ODD PERSON OUT.

AND THE SAME THING MIGHT BE HAPPENING TO MORE MEN.

THEY MIGHT NOT BE IN THE BIG DOMINANT GROUP IN PUBLISHING OR ACADEMIA, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

SO I DON'T THINK THE CRITICISM IS COMPLETELY INVALID, RIGHT?

SOCIAL CHANGES HAVE HAPPENED, BUT THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT THE SLIGHTLY OVERBLOWN CLAIM THAT IT IS A KIND OF THREAT TO CIVILIZATION, AND EVERYTHING IS GOING TO HELL IN A HANDCART IS ACTUALLY --THAT'S THE BIT I THINK IS ACTUALLY HARDER TO PROVE IS WOMEN'S FAULT.

>> YOU SAY DIFFERENT EVIDENCE-BASED CLAIMS ARE BEING MADE.

YOU TALKED TO HELEN ANDREWS, A RELIGIOUS HISTORIAN.

YOU TALKED TO A POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, JOHN CORNISH DALE.

THERE WAS A QUOTE IN THERE.

LEFTIST HAVE EMBRACED LOW TESTOSTERONE AS PART OF THEIR IDENTITY.

WHY SHOULD THIS BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY?

IS THIS AN EDGE CASE THEY'RE AMPLIFYING OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT HAS HAPPENED TO AM MAIN STREAM LEFT?

>> THE THESIS FROM FROM JOHN CORNISH DALEY WHOSE HANDLE IS ROAR EGG NATIONALIST, HE BELIEVES IN EATING 12 EGGS A DAY TO BOOST YOUR TESTOSTERONE LEVELS.

BUT THE NEWS IS SPERM RATES HAVE BEEN FALLING, TESTOSTERONE HAS BEEN FALLING.

THE SECOND POINT IS ACTUALLY IF YOU WERE A HIGH "T" AGGRESSIVE, VIRILE MAN YOU LIKE INEQUALITY, YOU LIKE ENTREPRENEURS, YOU LIKE STRIVING.

THE RIGHT OF POLITICS, THAT KIND OF COMPETITIVE ENERGY.

WHAT HIS CLAIM GOES ONTO SAY IS THAT LOW "T" CAUSES LIBERALISM, RIGHT?

MORE CONCERN ABOUT EQUALITY, MORE CONCERN ABOUT MAKING SURE OF EVERYBODY'S FEELINGS.

I FEEL THAT'S IMPOSING A FRAMED GENDER ONTO SOME FAIRLY BIG AND ABSTRACT CONCEPTS.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE BIRTHRATE, AND THERE WAS A RECENT EVENT AT THE WHITE HOUSE WHERE HEALTH SECRETARY RFK JR.

WAS TALKING ABOUT THE FALLING BIRTHRATE IN THE UNITED STATES, AND HE CALLED IT AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS.

AND DR.

OZ, THE HEAD OF CMS WARNED THAT AMERICANS ARE, QUOTE, UNDER-BABIED.

WHAT DO YOU HEAR WHEN THE ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS ARE USING RHETORIC LIKE THIS?

IS THE THE BIRTHRATE FALLING?

IF IT IS, WHAT'S WRONG WITH CALLING ATTENTION TO THAT?

>> THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

THE U. N. HAS BEEN WRITING ABOUT THIS SINCE THE 1990s BECAUSE IT IS A FINDING AS SOON AS WOMEN GET MORE EDUCATION ACCESS AND MORE ACCESS TO THE JOB MARKET, THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN THAT THEY HAVE FALLS.

AND YOU HAVE COUNTRIES THAT ARE BELOW 2.

1, WHICH IS SEEN AS THE REPLACEMENT RATE.

DEMOGRAPHICALLY IT'S A BIG CHALLENGE.

BUT PART OF THAT UNFORTUNATELY THE RETILTING OF SOCIETY HAS BECOME THE FACT THAT WE SUPPORT THE SENIORS A LOT MORE THAN WE SUPPORT YOUNG FAMILIES.

AND ACTUALLY THE DIFFICULT THING ABOUT THAT IS PERHAPS WE HAVEN'T YET FOUND THE CARROT THAT REALLY WORKS TO ENCOURAGE BIRTH RATES.

IT'S BEEN TRIED.

VARIOUS THINGS HAVE BEEN TRIED.

BABY BONUSES IN SINGAPORE OR INCOME TAX CHANGES IN HUNGRY, AND AT THE MOMENT THEY'RE NOT MASSIVELY SHIFTING THE NEEDLE.

IN AMERICA YOU'RE MUCH MORE LEFT ON YOUR OWN.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO FEDERAL MATERNITY LEAVE.

ACTUALLY IT'S NOT WRITTEN TO SUPPORT THE YOUNG FAMILIES IN THE REALLY CRUNCH YEARS THAT ARE HARDEST FOR THEM, AND I THINK THAT'S THE KIND OF THING TOTALLY LEGIT FOR A GOVERNMENT TO LOOK AT AND STUDY AND SAY, HANG ON A MINUTE, YES, THIS IS A PROBLEM.

WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

FOR ME THE BIT IS WORRYING ACTUALLY IF THE CARROTS DON'T WORK, ACTUALLY HOW MANY PEOPLE WANT THE STICK?

HOW MANY PEOPLE WANT TO EXCLUDE WOMEN FROM EDUCATION AND EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES AND STIGMATIZE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE KIDS?

YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE BIT THAT IS ALWAYS SLIGHTLY LURKING UNDER THE SURFACE, AND I CAN NEVER QUITE BE SURE HOW SINCERE PEOPLE ARE IN FINDING A SOLUTION THAT WORKS FOR WOMEN RATHER THAN SORT OF BERATE THEM OR PUNISH THEM IN SOME WAY.

>> HELEN LEWIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND FINALLY FOR US, RAFAEL NADAL'S JOURNEY TO THE TOP.

AS A 22-TIME GRAND SLAM CHAMPION HE'S KNOWN AS ONE OF THE GREATEST TENNIS PLAYERS OF ALL-TIME.

BUT NADAL'S EXTRAORDINARY SUCCESS DID NOT COME EASY.

NOW ALMOST TWO YEARS AFTER HIS RETIREMENT A NEW DOCUMENTARY IS UNVEILING THE STRUGGLES HE ENDURED BOTH PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER.

AND EARLIER TODAY CHRISTIANE SAT DOWN WITH THE TENNIS STAR AND ASKED HIM ABOUT IT.

>> TELL ME THE LEVEL OF ANXIETY AND STRESS, HAVING TO GO OUT, FOR INSTANCE, AT ONE POINT WITH A BOTTLE OF WATER THE WHOLE TIME, YOU KNOW?

AND HOW YOU WORKED THROUGH THAT.

>> PROBABLY BECAUSE I WENT THROUGH A LOT OF INJURIES, A LOT OF PRESSURE, AND A MOMENT THAT IN SOME WAYS YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO HANDLE ALL OF THIS.

AND EVEN IN MY MIND I WAS ABLE TO HANDLE ALL OF THIS, ARRIVE AT POINT YOUR MIND FAILS, AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

SO WHEN, OKAY, I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT I NEED TO FIX THINGS FOR MYSELF IN TERMS OF MENTAL -- MENTAL STRENGTH.

BUT THAT MOMENT WHEN MY FEELING WAS, OKAY, I CANNOT GO OUT ON THE STREET WITHOUT A BOTTLE OF WATER IN MY HAND, SO, YEAH, THAT'S A BIG --THAT'S A BIG THING, SO I NEED TO FIND HELP.

>> MAKE SURE TO TUNE IN TOMORROW FOR THE FULL CONVERSATION.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.