October 14, 2026

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AS GAZA TRIES TO REBUILD, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PRESIDENT MAHMOUD ABBAS POSTPONES ELECTIONS AGAIN FOR ANOTHER YEAR, MAKING IT MORE THAN TWO DECADES SINCE THE LAST MAJOR VOTE.

DEMOCRATIC ACTIVIST SAMER SINIJLAWI TELLS ME WHY HE'S SO WORRIED.

THEN -- >> FACEBOOK WANTS YOU TO STAY ON THE SITE AS LONG AS POSSIBLE, THEN TWO YEARS AGO THE ALGORITHM WAS CHANGED.

>> THE SOCIAL RECKONING.

AS FEARS GROW EVERY A. I. ALEX SORGEN'S NEW FILM BRINGS FACEBOOK WHISTLEBLOWER TO THE MAIN SCREEN.

PLUS.

"BLOCKERS. "

THE ACCLAIMED WRITER MICHAEL LEWIS SPEAKS TO WALTER ISAACSON IN THE TIME OF TRUMP.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ISRAEL'S ELECTION IS FAST APPROACHING A HUGELY CONSEQUENTIAL VOTE WITH PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HOPING TO KEEP HIS GRIP ON POWER.

BUT FOR PALESTINIANS THE CHANCE TO MAKE THEIR VOICES HEARD IN ELECTIONS HAS BEEN DELAYED YET AGAIN.

PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PRESIDENT MAHMOUD ABBAS IS POSTPONING THE ELECTIONS FROM THIS NOVEMBER UNTIL NEXT SEPTEMBER.

THE EU SAYS IT REGRETS ABBAS' DECISION TO DELAY.

AFTER ALL, IT WAS MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO SINCE THE LAST LEGISLATIVE ELECTIONS WHEN HAULM S DEFEATED THE PRESIDENT'S PARTY, FATAH, LEADING TO THE GROUP SEIZING FULL CONTROL OF GAZA.

ABBAS, NOW 90, WAS ELECTED IN 2005 AND HAS RULED BY DECREE SINCE HIS TERM ENDED IN 2009.

SAMER SINIJLAWI FEARED THIS DELAY.

THE DEMOCRACY ACTIVIST AND LEADER OF THE POLITICAL PARTY MASAR JADID, OR NEW PATH, IS JOINING ME NOW FROM JERUSALEM.

SAMER SINIJLAWI, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WHAT WENT THROUGH YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU HEARD THIS NEWS?

>> WELL, IT WAS A SHOCK.

IT IS A BIG DISAPPOINTMENT NOT ONLY FOR ME BUT ALSO FOR THOUSANDS, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUNG PALESTINIANS WHO SAW FROM THESE ELECTIONS A HOPE TO CHANGE THEIR LIFE.

WHAT WAS POSTPONED IS NOT A SIMPLE ELECTION.

IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE YOUNG GENERATION TO PEACEFUL PARTICIPATE IN THE POLITICAL LIFE.

WE KEEP CONVINCING THEM THAT THE BALLOTS WILL CHANGE THEIR LIVES, AND THEN THE DOOR KEEPS CLOSING AGAIN AND AGAIN.

SO IT'S MAKING THE ARGUMENT FOR DEMOCRATIC CHANGE VERY DIFFICULT.

BUT, ANYHOW, WE ARE CONTINUING IN THIS RACE.

WE HAVE DECLARED THAT WE WILL CONTINUE AS A CANDIDATE FOR THE COMING ELECTIONS.

WE WILL USE EVERY POSSIBILITIES FOR LEGAL AND POLITICAL MEANS TO CANCEL THAT DECREE.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO CALL FOR AREA ELECTIONS BECAUSE SIMPLY THE PALESTINIANS ARE ENTITLED TO CHANGE THEIR LEADERS AND REPLACE THEM, TOO.

>> YEAH.

SO LET ME JUST --YOU KIND OF PREDICTED THIS OR FEARED THIS, AND ABOUT FOUR DAYS BEFORE THIS POSTPONEMENT YOU WROTE IN THE "JERUSALEM POST" WHEN BALLOT BOXES ARE CLOSED, EXTREMISTS OFFER OTHER BOXES FILLED WITH WEAPONS, FUNERALS, AND FALSE PROMISES.

WE MUST NOT REPEAT THAT MISTAKE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE RESULT OF THIS DELAY GIVEN WHAT YOU JUST WROTE THERE?

>> WELL, LET US GO BACK TO THE ELECTIONS THAT WERE FIXED IN 2021.

THESE WERE CANCELED, TOO.

AND UNFORTUNATELY WE FACE THE 7th OCTOBER TWO YEARS LATER.

SO WHEN YOU CLOSE THE OPTION OF THE BALLOTS, THE ELECTION BOXES, THE EXTREMES FILL THE GAP.

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND PALESTINIANS ARE UNDER LAYERS AND LAYERS OF OPPRESSION AND CONTROL.

AND SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE CHANGED.

THE FAILURE OF THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP TO CHANGE THE LIVES OF THE PEOPLE.

I UNDERSTAND THAT THE OBSTACLES COME FROM THE OCCUPATION.

BUT ANY LEADER THAT CLAIMS RESPONSIBILITY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

THIS CURRENT LEADERSHIP FOR 20 YEARS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO NOTHING.

IT'S JUST COUNTING THE RESULTS OF THE ACTIONS OF THE OTHERS.

AND THE ELECTIONS ARE HOPE FOR PEOPLE.

THEY GIVE THE PEOPLE THE POSSIBILITY TO CHOOSE THEIR FUTURE, TO CHANGE THEIR FUTURE.

SO I AM VERY WORRIED THAT, AGAIN, BY CANCELING THESE ELECTIONS WE MIGHT BE SIMPLY WAITING FOR THE NEXT EARTHQUAKE TO COME.

>> SAMER SINIJLAWI, DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANYTHING -- I HEAR WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT EXCUSES THAT ARE BEING MADE FOR CANCELING THIS, AND NOT JUST EXCUSES BUT THE REAL CHALLENGES OF THE OCCUPATION.

DO YOU THINK THAT ELECTIONS IN GAZA COULD HAVE BEEN ORGANIZED, AND FRANKLY THE ELECTIONS IN THE WEST BANK GIVEN THE TERRORISM METED ON THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE BY THE SETTLERS?

I USE THE WORD TERRORIST BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT SOME OF THE ISRAELIS ARE CALLING THESE VIOLENT SETTLERS.

>> WELL, THE ANSWERS OF THE READINESS OF THIS ELECTION CAME FROM THE PALESTINIAN CENTRAL ELECTION COMMITTEE.

THEY SAID THEY ARE READY TO ORGANIZE THE ELECTIONS IN GAZA, AND THEY SAID THEY ARE READY TO ORGANIZE THE ELECTIONS IN THE WEST BANK.

NOW, I UNDERSTAND ALL THE DIFFICULTIES.

I UNDERSTAND ALL THE OCCUPATION ACTIONS ON THE GROUND, BUT THESE ARE PERMANENT CONDITIONS.

IF WE KEEP USING EXCUSES THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WILL NEVER HAVE A RIGHT TO VOTE.

IT CHALLENGES THESE CONDITIONS AND NOT USING THEM TO KEEP DELAYING THE VOTE.

I AM 100% SURE THAT THIS ELECTIONS WOULD HAVE WORKED PERFECTLY, THAT THE CALL FOR DELAYING THE ELECTION WAS NOT BASED ON THESE RESULTS OR THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

25 PEOPLE THAT CONVENED IN CAIRO AND DECIDED THAT THERE IS A PALESTINIAN CONSENSUS ON DELAYING THE ELECTIONS ARE THE SAME 25 PEOPLE THAT THE ELECTIONS IS TRYING TO REPLACE THEM, THAT THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ARE -- ARE TRYING TO GO TO THE BALLOTS TO CHOOSE DIFFERENT PEOPLE, YOUNGER PEOPLE.

YOU KNOW NOW THE AVERAGE AGE OF THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP IS AROUND 75 YEARS.

60% OF THE VOTERS -- >> YEAH, SAMER.

SAMER --EXACTLY, AND MANY HAVE NOT HAD ELECTIONS IN THEIR LIFETIMES, THOSE 40-YEAR- OLDS, AS YOU SAY.

YOU HAD STARTED A NEW PARTY.

YOU WERE GOING TO RUN IN THESE UPCOMING ELECTIONS BEFORE THEY WERE CANCELED, OR AS SOME PEOPLE SAY, DELAYED.

DO YOU ACTUALLY --WHO DO YOU THINK WOULD WIN THESE ELECTIONS?

BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW THE PA SAYS, WELL, AMAS COULD WIN AGAIN AND WHERE WOULD BE NEXT?

WHAT WAS YOUR SENSE OF WHAT FACTION MIGHT WIN A PALESTINIAN ELECTION?

>> WELL, TECHNICALLY AN OFFICIAL HAMAS IS NOT TAKING PART ON THIS LIST.

THEY MIGHT GO INSIDE OTHER LIST AS A COALITION, BUT DIRECTLY AS A HAMAS LIST, THERE WILL BE NO HAMAS LIST.

SO I THINK THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HOLD ELECTIONS WITH ALMOST 100% GUARANTEES THAT HAMAS IS NOT GOING TO WIN ELECTIONS.

I THINK NOT THE USUAL SUSPECTS.

THE ELECTIONS COULD BRING A LOT OF NEW PLAYERS, YOUNG INDEPENDENT LISTS.

OUR LIST, FOR EXAMPLE, IS RAISING A NEW SLOGAN, A NEW POLITICAL IDEA FROM CONFRONTATION TO DIALOGUE AND SIMPLY A POLITICS THAT CHANGE THE LIFE OF PEOPLE.

WHILE WE'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE INDEPENDENCE AS PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, OUR SLOGAN IS A TWO-STEP SOLUTION.

A PALESTINIAN STATE NEXT TO THE STATE OF ISRAEL, 100% SECURITY FOR THE ISRAELIS AND 100% FREEDOM FOR THE PALESTINIANS WHILE WE ARE TRYING THROUGH NEGOTIATION.

AND NEGOTIATION IS THE ONLY MEANS TO ACHIEVE POLITICAL GAINS.

IT MIGHT TAKE ONE YEAR, IT MIGHT TAKE FIVE YEARS.

BUT WHILE WE ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE THIS, WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO PROVIDE SERVICES TO IMPROVE THE LIVE OF OUR PEOPLE.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE STUDENTS ARE ABLE TO REACH THE SCHOOLS, THAT THE FARMERS ARE ABLE TO REACH THE LAND, THAT THE WORKERS ARE ABLE TO REACH THEIR WORKPLACE, THAT PEOPLE ARE RECEIVING THEIR SALARIES ON TIME.

THAT PEOPLE ARE FINDING MEDICAL TREATMENT AND MEDICINES IN THE HOSPITALS.

SO WHY SHOULDN'T THE PALESTINIAN HAVE BETTER LIVES WHILE WE ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE FREEDOM?

THESE ARE THE LINES THAT WE ARE INTRODUCING, AND THESE ARE NEW IDEAS.

I THINK SUCH NEW IDEAS WILL HAVE A BETTER CHANCE TO BE EXAMINED AND TESTED AMONG THE PALESTINIAN POPULATION.

CURRENTLY THE TRADITIONAL FORCES ARE STICKING TO A CERTAIN NARRATIVE, TO A CERTAIN SCRIPT THAT IS NOT PRODUCING ANYTHING FOR YEARS.

SO WE NEED ALWAYS TO ASK OURSELVES A DIFFICULT QUESTION.

IS THE PATH THAT WE ARE GOING IN LEADING TO EMBETTER THE LIFE OF OUR CHILDREN?

OR IS IT GOING TO CONTINUE THEIR SUFFERING?

THIS QUESTION IS VALID ALWAYS, AND I THINK SUCH ELECTIONS ARE ENABLING THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE TO CHOOSE BETWEEN DIFFERENT ALTERNATIVES.

>> LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, WHICH IS THE OTHER SIDE, ISRAEL.

YOU CAN'T JUST ACHIEVE ALL THIS WITHOUT NEGOTIATING.

YOU HAVE SAID THAT IT'S BETTER TO TRY TO PERSUADE ISRAELIS THAN TO PRESSURE THEM, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN IF NETANYAHU OR ANY OF THAT ILK ARE ELECTED AGAIN?

BECAUSE THEY HAVE SAID FUNDAMENTALLY, AND IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE ELECTION.

THEY HAVE NO PALESTINIAN STATE.

NO PALESTINIAN STATE.

AND ALL THE ACTION THAT WE SEE ON THE WEST BANK AND CERTAINLY WHAT WE'VE SEEN, YOU KNOW, DEVASTATE GAZA SEEMS TO BE WHAT THEY MEAN --NO PALESTINIAN STATE.

SO HOW DO YOU NEGOTIATE AND CREATE A STATE OR THE PATHWAY TO A STATE UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES?

BECAUSE AS I SAY, THE ISRAELI PEOPLE ALSO ARE NOT EXACTLY JUMPING UP AND DOWN FOR A TWO-STATE SOLUTION RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, THAT'S WHY WE ARE RESORTING TO CONVINCING, TO ATTACHING TO THE HEARTS AND MIND OF ISRAELIS.

IF WE ARE NOT ABLE AS PALESTINIAN PEOPLE TO CONVINCE 51% OF ISRAELI VOTERS IN ANY COMING ISRAELI ELECTION TO VOTE FOR A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, WE WILL NEVER GET IT.

THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE THAT IS TO CONVINCE THE ISRAELIS TO RESORT TO IT.

70% FROM THE ISRAELIS.

I KNOW THEM VERY WELL.

THEY ARE NOW HESITANT TO SUPPORT THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION NOT OUT OF IDEOLOGY BUT OUT OF SECURITY CONCERNS.

IF WE ARE CAPABLE TO PROVE TO THE ISRAELIS THAT THERE IS A PARTNER THEY CAN TRUST ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE, THAT OUR NATIONAL STRATEGY PUTS ISRAELI SECURITY ON ITS BASES --NOT TO DO THEM A FAVOR BUT TO ACHIEVE OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS, THEN SOMETHING WILL CHANGE AMONG THE ISRAELIS.

THE ISRAELIS ARE SMART, AND THEY CAN KNOW WHEN THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY.

I DON'T THINK THAT THE ISRAELIS PREFER TO LIVE FOREVER IN A GREATER ISRAEL THAT IS NOT DEMOCRATIC, THAT IS NOT JEWISH AND THAT IS NOT SAFE.

MOST OF THEM WOULD PREFER TO GO TO A SMALLER ISRAEL THAT IS SAFE, THAT IS DEMOCRATIC, AND IS JEWISH.

AND THIS IS THE TWO- STATE SOLUTION.

SO WE HAVE THE OBLIGATION, WE AS PALESTINIANS BECAUSE WE HAVE A SENSE OF URGENCY --YOU KNOW, ISRAELIS CAN WAIT ANOTHER 10 OR 20 YEARS UNTIL THEY SETTLE THEIR MIND WHICH DIRECTION THEY TAKE WITH THE PALESTINIAN, WHICH OPTION THEY CHOOSE WITH THE PALESTINIANS.

WE CANNOT WAIT ANOTHER TEN DAYS WITH 2 MILLION PEOPLE LIVING IN PLASTIC TENTS IN GAZA.

SO WE NEED TO TAKE THE FIRST STEPS.

WE NEED TO START THIS CHANGE.

WHEN WE START THIS CHANGE, WE HAVE AN IMPACT ON THEM.

WE THE PALESTINIANS, WE HAVE EXCLUSIVE POWER OVER ALL THE OTHER NATIONS.

WE ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN CONVINCE THE ISRAELIS THEY CAN TRUST US IN THEIR SECURITY, THAT THERE IS A LEGIBLE PARTNER ON THE PALESTINIAN SIDE THEY CAN WORK WITH.

AND WE AS PALESTINIANS, WE ARE READY TO TALK TO ANY COMING ISRAELI LEADERSHIP.

WE DON'T WANT TO DEFINE TO THE ISRAELIS WHICH PRIME MINISTER THEY WOULD LIKE TO VOTE TO.

IT DOESN'T --IT DOESN'T MATTER THE NAME OF THE PRIME MINISTER.

WHAT MATTERS IS THE CHOICES, THE POLICY OF THAT PRIME MINISTER.

WILL THAT PRIME MINISTER ALLOW HURYANS FOR POLITICAL CHANGE?

WILL THAT PRIME MINISTER UNDERSTAND THAT THE SECURITY OF ISRAELIS DEPEND ON THE FREEDOM OF THE PALESTINIANS?

WE ARE OPENING THE DOORS TO START WORKING WITH ANY COMING ISRAELI LEADERSHIP, AND WE EXPECT THAT -- >> OKAY.

>> --THAT ELECTED LEADERSHIP WILL ALSO OPEN THE DOORS.

>> I'M LISTENING TO A VERY REASONABLE ARGUMENT THAT YOU'RE MAKING, BUT I ALSO KNOW THAT MANY, MANY ISRAELIS, MAYBE EVEN THE MAJORITY, BELIEVE THAT THIS PERMANENT WAR THAT NETANYAHU HAS GOT THE COUNTRY IN IS THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP THEMSELVES SAFE FROM ANOTHER OCTOBER 7th.

SO THAT IS WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE ISRAELI SIDE RIGHT NOW.

I WANT TO ASK YOU WHY YOU ARE SO CONVINCED THAT YOU CAN CONVINCE.

YOU, SAMER, SPENT FIVE YEARS IN JAIL WHEN YOU WERE ARRESTED AS A TEENAGER DURING THE FIRST INTIFADA.

YOU SPENT FIVE YEARS IN ISRAELI PRISON.

WE'RE CURRENTLY READING THE HORRORS THAT ARE METED OUT TO PALESTINIAN PRISONERS IN ISRAELI PRISONS RIGHT NOW.

WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM YOUR TIME IN PRISON?

>> WELL, MY PERSONAL STORY IS -- IS WHY I AM SO MUCH COMMITTED TO THE PALESTINIAN FREEDOM.

IT'S THE STORY THAT I HAVE LIVED.

I WAS BORN IN THE OLD CITY.

I PARTICIPATED IN THE FIRST INTIFADA.

I WENT FOR ISRAELI JAIL FOR FIVE YEARS, BUT I ALSO ENGAGED IN 40 YEARS IN DIALOGUE WITH THE ISRAELIS.

AND I CONSIDER THIS THE BEST INVESTMENT I HAVE DONE IN MY LIFE.

I UNDERSTAND VERY MUCH MY PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

I UNDERSTAND VERY WELL THE ISRAELI PEOPLE.

YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND ANY CONFLICT, CHIS RISTIANE, IF YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO SEE IT THROUGH THE EYES OF OTHERS.

I AM ABLE TO SEE THIS CONFLICT THROUGH A PALESTINIAN BECAUSE I AM A PALESTINIAN WHO HAS LIVED THIS CONFLICT EVERY DAY IN HIS LIFE.

AND I CAN SEE THIS CONFLICT THROUGH THE EYES OF ISRAELIS.

IT IS TWO WORDS.

IT IS SECURITY FROM ONE SIDE, IT'S FREEDOM FROM THE OTHER SIDE.

THE WAY I KNOW THE ISRAELIS, AND WHEN I MEET SOME ISRAELIS, I TELL THEM I KNOW YOU BETTER THAN YOU KNOW YOURSELVES BECAUSE I TALK TO ALL OF YOU --LEFT, CENTER, RIGHT --YOU DON'T TALK TO EACH OTHER.

I REALLY KNOW THE ISRAELIS VERY WELL.

THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A FUTURE WITH SECURITY.

SECURITY -- THE FEAR IN THEIR HEARTS IS REAL.

WE NEED TO DEFEAT THE FEAR IN THEIR HEARTS.

THE REAL ENEMY IS THE FEAR INSIDE ISRAELI.

WE HAVE A MUTUAL ENEMY BOTH US AND ISRAELIS.

IT'S IGNORANCE.

MOST OF THE PALESTINIANS DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ISRAELIS AND DON'T KNOW THEM.

THE MAJORITY OF THE ISRAELIS HAVE NEVER MET THE PALESTINIAN.

THEY DON'T KNOW THE PALESTINIANS, AND THEY DON'T KNOW THAT CONFLICT IN THE EYES OF THE PALESTINIANS.

WE NEED TO CREATE A LEADERSHIP THAT WILL BRIDGE THIS GAP.

I THINK BUILDING TRUST IN A PROCESS OF TOP DOWN CAN SPEED UP THE PROCESS.

IF THE LEADERSHIP ON THE LEADERSHIP LEVEL, THERE WILL BE TRUST.

AND TRUST YOU CANNOT GET IT IF YOU ASK IT.

YOU NEED TO EARN IT STEP BY STEP.

SOMEBODY NEEDS TO STARTS THIS, CHRISTIANE.

AND I THINK WE PALESTINIANS NOW BECAUSE OF THE SENSE OF URGENCY, WE NEED TO START THIS PROCESS.

SO RAISING THE SLOGAN IN A VERY COMPLICATED AND DIFFICULT SITUATION LIKE THIS, IN THIS CAMPAIGN, IN THIS PALESTINIAN ELECTION CAMPAIGN WHEN THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER, WHEN THERE IS A LOT OF HARD FEELINGS, WHEN 2 MILLION PEOPLE IN GAZA ARE NOW ENTERING THEIR THIRD WINTER UNDER PLASTIC TENTS, IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION.

AND WE COME AND WE RAISE THE SLOGAN OF FROM TATION TO DIALOGUE.

IT'S VERY CONTRADICTIONAL, BUT I HAVE SEEN THAT THE YOUNG GENERATION BELIEVES IN IT.

I HAVE SEEN THE YOUNG GENERATION SEES A WAY OUT OF THE SUFFERING IN THIS WAY.

SO IT IS APPEALING TO THE PEOPLE.

IT IS RESPONDING TO THEIR NEEDS.

IT'S A VISION THAT IS PRACTICAL.

WHEN YOU SAY THAT ALL I NEED IS TO CONVINCE ISRAELI, IT IS TRUE BECAUSE WE HAVE LEARNED DURING THE WAR OVER GAZA WE HAVE SEEN THAT NOBODY IN THE WORLD HAS THE POWER TO PRESSURE ISRAEL.

THE ONLY WAY TO GET A POLITICAL DECISION FROM ISRAEL IS TO CONVINCE A MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS, AND THAT SHOULD BE OUR TASK.

AND IT IS DO-ABLE.

THIS IS NOT FANTASY.

BELIEVING IN SOMETHING ELSE IS FANTASY.

BELIEVING THAT THE CONTINUATION OF CONFRONTATION WILL LEAD US TO SOMEWHERE IS THE FANTASY.

>> SAMER SINIJLAWI, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

LEADER OF THE NEW PATH PARTY.

AND WE'LL BE WATCHING.

> >> DESPITE DIRE PREDICTIONS, THE A. I. RACE IS MOVING FULL STEAM AHEAD.

META, FORMERLY FACEBOOK, JUST RELEASED TWO ADVANCED MODELS TO HELP POWER NEW DIGITAL ASSISTANCE, TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH INDUSTRY LEADERS LIKE OPENA.

I. AND ANTHROPIC.

THE COMPANY IS STILL RUN BY MARK ZUCKERBERG.

NOW A NEW FILM IS REMINDING US OF THE FACEBOOK FOUNDER'S TRACK RECORD.

"THE SOCIAL RECKONING" IS A SORT OF SEQUEL TO DIRECTOR AARON SORKEN'S FIRST HIT 2010 FILM, "THE SOCIAL NETWORK" ABOUT THIS ISSUE, AND IT RECOUNTS THE STORY OF FRANCES HAUGEN WHO WAS A WHISTLEBLOWER, WHO LEAKED TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FACEBOOK'S INTERNAL DOCUMENTS TO THE SEC AND TO "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL. "

HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> CONNECTING PEOPLE IS A VIRTUOUS MISSION BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE AWKWARD.

THEY GET TO BE THEIR BEST SELF WHEN THEIR ALONE AT THEIR KEYBOARD.

>> SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?

>> SOMETHING CHANGED.

>> I WON.

>> I WANTED TO FIND OUT WHO RADICALIZED MY FRIEND.

>> AND?

>> WE DID.

>> FACEBOOK WANTS YOU TO STAY ON THE SITE FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

AND TWO YEARS AGO THE ALGORITHM WAS CHANGED.

>> WE'RE TRYING TO ADDRESS HATE PEACH AND WE'RE GOING TO AMPLIFY AND TURBOCHARGE IT.

>> THE DEBATE IS OVER.

>> "THE SOCIAL ECENING" IS AN INSTRUCTIVE TALE ESPECIALLY AS MORE AND MORE WHISTLEBLOWERS COME TO THE FLOOR AND THEY RESIGN FROM A. I. COMPANIES.

HAUGEN IS JOINING US FROM PUERTO RICO ALONGSIDE FELLOW WHISTLEBLOWER.

SHE'S BRITTANY KAISER WHO RESIGNED FROM CAMBRIDGE ANALYT KWU IN 2018.

AND TOGETHER THEY'RE WORKING ON AN INITIATIVE TO PROTECT EMPLOYEES, THOSE WHO SOUND THE ALARM.

SO WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME START WITH YOU -- LET ME START WITH YOU, FRANCES HAUGEN, JUST TO REMIND US HOW BOLD IT WAS AND HOW SCARY IT WAS TO GO AGAINST THIS MIGHTY COMPANY, FACEBOOK, WHEN YOU DID.

TO TELL THE WORLD --TO TRY TO TELL THE WORLD SOME OF THE DANGERS THAT WERE INHERENT IN THEIR PROCEDURES.

>> WELL, BLOWING THE WHISTLE ON A BIG TECH IS A REALLY COMPLICATED THING.

PROBABLY THE LARGEST BARRIER PEOPLE HAVE TO JUMP OVER BEFORE THEY CAN EVEN CONSIDER GOING TO THE PUBLIC IS BEING CONFIDENT WHAT THEY'RE SEEING IS REAL.

YOU KNOW, THE REASON WHY THESE CULTURES GET SO TOXIC IS THAT THERE ARE LOTS AND LOTS OF STORIES THAT GET TOLD INSIDE A COMPANY ABOUT WHY THINGS HAVE TO BE THE WAY THEY ARE.

YOU KNOW, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR US TO HIRE MORE PEOPLE.

ALL COMPANIES HAVE THIS PROBLEM.

WHATEVER THE RATIONALE IS WHY IT DOESN'T CHANGE IS NOT NECESSARY.

AND SO BEING ABLE TO ADMIT TO YOURSELF THE THING THAT YOU SEE AND THE THING YOU'RE PRETTY CERTAIN OF IS REAL IS A REALLY HARD THING.

AND I STRUGGLED WITH THAT FOR A LONG TIME.

AND UNTIL THEY DISSOLVED THE CIVIC INTEGRITY TEAM --THE TEAM I WORKED ON IN FACEBOOK RESPONSIBLE FOR KEEPING FACEBOOK SAFE FOR ELECTIONS, THINGS LIKE THAT --I WAS GOING TO JUSTIFY A LOT OF THE THINGS I HEARD.

BUT ONCE THEY DISSOLVED THE TEAM, THAT'S WHEN I KNEW THE PUBLIC WAS GOING TO NEED TO STEP IN IF FACEBOOK WAS EVER GOING TO CHANGE.

>> BEFORE I TURN TO BRITTANY, I JUST WANT TO CONTINUE WITH YOU FOR A MINUTE, FRANCES, BECAUSE YOU WERE A TRUE BELIEVER.

YOU BELIEVED IN ALL THE GOOD FACEBOOK WAS PROMOTING ITSELF, CONNECTING WITH PEOPLE, ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.

BUT YOUR MAIN ISSUES YOU BROUGHT TO THE PUBLIC I WANT TO LIST THEM.

IN THE INTERNAL REPORTS AND STUDIES YOU OBTAINED IT SHOWS THAT FACEBOOK'S ALGORITHM ENCOURAGED POLITICAL PARTIES AROUND THE WORLD TO EMBRACE EXTREMIST IDEAS.

DRUG TRAFFICKERS AND HUMAN TRAFFICKERS OPENLY WERE USING FACEBOOK SERVICES.

INS GRAM INCREASED RATES OF DEPRESSION AND EATING DISORDERS, AND HOW THE SWITCH TO PRIORITIZE SOMETHING CALLED MSI, MEANINGFUL SOCIAL INTERACTIONS, IN 2018 HAD HUGE CONSEQUENCES FOR SOME USERS.

WHEN YOU BROUGHT THIS TO YOUR INTERNAL COLLEAGUES OR SUPERVISORS, WHAT DID THEY SAY?

AND WHAT IS FACEBOOK'S POSITION ON THESE ITEMS THAT I JUST LISTED?

>> SO WHEN I WORKED INSIDE THE COMPANY, I WORKED WITHIN A MUCH SMALLER SCOPE THAN THAT GIANT UMBRELLA OF AREAS OF MISDEEDS.

I FOCUSED PRIMARILY WITHIN OUR THREAT INTELLIGENCE ORG, WHICH WAS A BUNCH OF SPECIALISTS, A LOT OF THEM EX-GOVERNMENT THAT WORKED ON SPYING THINGS LIKE FOREIGN ACTORS INTERFERING WITH POLITICAL PROCESSES IN THE WORLD, FOREIGN ACTORS COMMITTING ESPIONAGE.

THAT WAS MY SPECIFIC TEAM.

OR BEFORE THAT I WORKED ON TARGETED MISINFORMATION.

WHEN I RAISED CONCERNS TO MY EMPLOYER ABOUT THE THINGS THAT I WAS LEARNING --SO WE DID -- WORKED A LOT WITH RESEARCHERS WHO WERE ACTIVELY FIRST-HAND ON THE GROUND STUDYING ETHNIC VIOLENCE ISSUES RELATED TO SOCIAL MEDIA IN PLACES LIKE AFRICAN COUNTRIES, PLACES LIKE SOUTHEAST ASIA.

WE WERE TOLD, WELL, WE'RE DOING MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD IS DOING.

THERE WERE LOTS OF THESE STORIES.

WE CAN'T HIRE ANYMORE PEOPLE.

IT'S INIMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY BIG COMPANY TO HIRE MORE IN SILICON VALLEY.

THERE WERE ALWAYS EXCUSES FOR WHY MORE COULDN'T BE DONE.

SO I THINK THE SENSE OF LEARNED HOPELESSNESS IS A COPING MECHANISM WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE SUPPORT FROM ABOVE TO ACTUALLY DEAL WITH THE BIG, MESSY PROBLEMS.

>> YEAH.

BRITTANY KAISER, YOU WERE THE WHISTLEBLOWER FOR CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA.

THERE WAS A CASE WHEN YOU CAME FORWARD ABOUT THEM HARVESTING AND USING PERSONAL DATA FROM MILLIONS OF FACEBOOK USER PROFILES TO ALLEGEDLY INFLUENCE THE OUTCOMES OF THE 2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN THE U. S. AND BREXIT.

NOW, FACEBOOK APPARENTLY WAS AWARE OF THIS.

I'LL SAY THEIR DENIAL AND ALL THE REST OF IT IN A MINUTE, BUT WHAT ENABLED YOU TO COME FORWARD?

WHAT WAS THE BREAKING POINT FOR YOU?

>> THE BREAKING POINT FOR ME WAS SEEING THE PRESENTATION POST THE 2016 ELECTIONS ON WHAT THE CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA TEAM HAD DONE, THE AMOUNT OF DATA THAT WAS COLLECTED, THE WAY THAT INDIVIDUALS WERE GROUPED AND TARGETED, SOME SPECIFICALLY TARGETED TO NOT TURN OUT FOR ELECTIONS.

SO IT BECAME VERY OBVIOUS TO ME THAT NOT ONLY WERE THERE DATA PROTECTION AND PRIVACY ISSUES WHERE DATA WAS BEING COLLECTED WITHOUT EXPLICIT CONSENT FROM FACEBOOK USERS AND THEN USED TO TARGET IN ELECTIONS, BUT ALSO THAT IT BECAME VERY EASY FOR OUR FOREIGN ADVERSARIES TO USE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS TO INTERVENE IN OUR DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES.

>> NOW, A NEW MEXICO JURY RECENTLY FOUND THAT META, AS IT'S NOW CALLED, HAD MISLED USERS ABOUT FACEBOOK DATA PRACTICES, FAILING TO DISCLOSE THAT IT SOLD USER DATA TO OUTSIDE PARTIES, AS YOU JUST COMPLAINED.

NOW, THE META SPOKESMAN SAID THE COMPANY DISAGREES WITH THIS VERDICT AND WOULD CONTINUE TO DEFEND ITSELF AGAINST WHAT IT SAYS ARE EFFORTS TO DISTORT ITS RECORD.

THAT'S WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT PEOPLE TO SAY IN THIS CASE.

SO WHAT WAS IT LIKE GOING THROUGH THIS WHISTLEBLOWER PROCESS?

>> UNDERTAKING THE WHISTLEBLOWING PROCESS AGAINST MULTIPLE LARGE COMPANIES AS WELL AS DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATIONS THAT WERE INVOLVED IN ELECTIONS PROCESSES THAT WERE CLIENTS OF MY FORMER EMPLOYER WAS DEFINITELY ONE OF THE SCARIEST THINGS I'VE EVER DONE.

WHISTLEBLOWERS WE CALL IT A CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE MOMENT, WHERE YOU KNOW YOU MIGHT BE THE ONLY PERSON THAT IS WILLING TO TAKE ACTION AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

SO YOU JUMP OFF A CLIFF WITHOUT KNOWING IF YOU HAVE A PARACHUTE, AND YOU DIVE DEEP WITH INVESTIGATORS, LEGISLATORS, REGULATORS, JOURNALISTS, ANYONE THAT'S REALLY WILLING TO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS.

I DID 27 DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATIONS OVER 50 DIFFERENT LAWSUITS SINCE, AND NOTHING HAS GOTTEN BETTER.

IN FACT IN THE AGE OF A. I. AND SUPER INTELLIGENCE, A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS FRANCES AND I IDENTIFIED IN OUR WHISTLE BLOWING PROCESSES HAVE BECOME EXPONENTIALLY WORSE ESPECIALLY DATA PROTECTION AND CYBER SECURITY ISSUES THAT ARE CAUSED BY THESE PLATFORMS.

>> WE DON'T NEED A. I. WHEN WE WAKE UP TO BE DANGEROUS.

A. I. RIGHT NOW IS ENOUGH TO RUN FOREIGN INTERFERENCE OPERATIONS THAT WE WOULD HAVE NEVER IMAGINED IN 2016.

>> WELL, TO ME THAT'S THE POINT OF --I GUESS THAT'S A LITTLE BIT OF THE POINT OF THIS FILM, OF YOUR WHISTLE BLOWING AND ME TALKING TO YOU, BECAUSE CLEARLY WE'VE HAD THE WHOLE ISSUE OF SOCIAL MEDIA BEING UNREGULATED.

AND NOW WE'VE GOT THE WHOLE ISSUE OF A. I. BEING UNREGULATED, AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, EXPONENTIALLY MORE DANGEROUS.

SO I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU WERE THE CONSULTANT, FRANCES, ON THE AARON SORKIN FILM.

MIKY MADISON PLAYS YOU.

I WONDER HOW YOU THOUGHT SHE PORTRAYED YOU BUT ALSO YOUR EARNESTNESS ABOUT GETTING THIS OUT.

AND JUST TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE COLLABORATION WITH A JOURNALIST, IN THIS CASE "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" WHO REALLY GOT YOUR STORY OUT.

WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

>> SO EVERY FILM IS AN ADAPTION OR EVERY INSPIRED BY A TRUE STORY FILM IS AN ADAPTION.

AND ADAPTIONS REQUIRE CREATIVE CHOICES.

ONE OF THE CREATIVE CHOICES THAT I -- THAT AARON MADE I THINK IS STRATEGICALLY THE RIGHT ONE, WHICH IS THAT HE IN MANY WAYS CHANGED A BUNCH OF THINGS I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD ASSOCIATE WITH ME.

I'M ALMOST 6 FEET TALL AND 5'11".

I WAS MUCH BLONDER DURING THE AGE I WAS DOING THIS WHISTLE BLOWING.

I WAS A NATIONAL DEBATER IN HIGH SCHOOL.

I COACHED UNDER FOUR YEARS IN COLLEGE.

THE CHARACTER I PORTRAYED ON SCREEN IS BOTH SMALLER IN PHYSICALITY BUT ALSO SHE STUMBLES OVER HER WORDS AT THE BEGINNING.

BUT YOU'VE GOT TO REMEMBER TO HAVE A COMPELLING MOVIE THAT'S EXCITING TO WATCH YOU NEED TO HAVE THE CHARACTER GROWTH, YOU HAVE TO SEE THE CHANGE.

YOU GET TO SEE THE FRANCES HAUGEN CHARACTER GO THROUGH THAT CHANGE AND COME OUT OF IT I THINK A MORE IMPORTANT PERSON, A PERSON EXCITED ABOUT LIFE.

I THINK THEY DID A REALLY GOOD JOB OF CAPTURING IN TERMS OF THERENTIALSHIP WITH THE JOURNALIST --THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE THINGS ABOUT THIS MOVIE.

WHEN I STARTED WORKING WITH JEFF THERE WERE THINGS I KNEW FOR SURE.

POLITICAL PARTIES REPORTING THEY INTENTIONALLY CHANGED POSITIONS THEY PROMOTED BECAUSE THEY WERE EASY TO DISTRIBUTE ON SOCIAL MEDIA AFTER THE MSI CHANGE.

YOU KNOW, WHAT WE GOT TO CHOOSE IN THE BALLOT BOX WAS ALREADY INFLUENCED BY FACEBOOK, BY PEOPLE IN MENLO PARK BEFORE WE EVEN GOT TO VOTE.

SO THERE WERE SOME THINGS I KNEW FOR SURE BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS I DIDN'T KNOW.

AND THE MOVIE DOES AN AMAZING THING OF CAPTURING THE JOY OF DISCOVERY.

AS YOU FIND THE PUZZLE PIECES, HOW DO YOU FIT THEM TOGETHER?

THAT TEAMWORK AND THAT JOINT PROCESS OF CREATION.

AND I THINK WHEN YOU HAVE A REALLY GOOD WHISTLEBLOWER AND JOURNALIST RELATIONSHIP, THAT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT GETS UNLOCKED BECAUSE BOTH SIDES HAVE DIFFERENT KINDS OF INFORMATION AND DIFFERENT KINDS OF INSIGHTS.

AND TOGETHER YOU CAN SEE THE WHOLE PICTURE MUCH MORE COMPLETELY.

>> I WANT TO PLAY A BIT OF THE TESTIMONY BY --BY YOURSELF IN FRONT OF CONGRESS, THE REAL-LIFE YOU TALKING TO THE SENATORS ABOUT MARK ZUCKERBERG AND WHAT WAS GOING ON.

LET'S JUST PLAY THIS.

>> MARK HAS BUILT AN ORGANIZATION THAT IS VERY METRICS DRIVEN.

IT IS INTENDED TO BE FLAT.

THERE IS NO UNILATERAL RESPONSIBILITY.

THE METRICS MAKE THE DECISION.

UNFORTUNATELY, THAT ITSELF IS A DECISION.

AND IN THE END IF HE IS THE CEO AND THE CHAIRMAN OF FACEBOOK, HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE DECISIONS.

>> THE BUCK STOPS WITH HIM.

>> THE BUCK STOPS WITH HIM.

>> SO SHORTLY THEREAFTER, A FEW YEARS AFTER THAT, YOU KNOW, FACEBOOK IS NOW META.

LISTEN TO THIS RESEARCH FROM PEW LAST YEAR FOUND THAT TWO-THIRDS OF AMERICANS HAD AN UNFAVORABLE OPINION OF MARK ZUCKERBERG.

AND WE SEE IN THE FILM JEREMY STRONG PLAYING HIM AND HIS INTERNAL TEAM TRYING TO HUMANIZE HIM FOR COURT AND CONGRESSIONAL APPEARANCES.

HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HIM, FRANCES, IN TERMS OF HIS CARE FOR THE EFFECTS ON THE PUBLIC, THE COMMON SO TO SPEAK?

BECAUSE WE SEE JEREMY STRONG PLAYING WHAT ESSENTIALLY APPEARS TO BE SOMEBODY NOW FOCUSED ONLY ON WINNING AND ON THE --AND ON THE BOTTOM LINE.

>> SO MARK IS IN A VERY UNIQUE POSITION FOR ALMOST ANY HUMAN IN THE WORLD IN THAT HE HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, THE KING OF FACEBOOK SINCE HE WAS 19 YEARS OLD.

SO HE HOLDS MORE THAN HALF THE VOTING SHARES FOR THE COMPANY WHICH ALLOWS HIM TO BE BOTH THE CEO AND THE CHAIRMAN.

THE ONLY OPINION THAT REALLY MATTERS IS HIS OPINION.

I THINK PART OF THE REASON WHY HIS POPULARITY NUMBERS ARE SO POOR, SO FOR CONTEXT AT THE HEIGHT OF DOGE IN 2025 WHEN PEOPLE WERE KEYING TESLAS, WHEN PEOPLE WERE PROTESTING IN THE STREETS THAN ELON MUSK HIS NUMBERS WERE STILL BETTER THAN MARK ZUCKERBERG WHICH IS WILD.

I THINK WHY PEOPLE HAVE SUCH DISPLEASURE WITH HIM IS THAT THERE'S BEEN A SERIES OF WILD SCANDALS.

LIKE CAMBRIDGE ANALYTICA IS ONE OF THE LARGER ONES, BUT THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE AROUND THAT.

I THINK ONE OF THE RECENT IS AROUND THE CREEPER GLASSES, THE AUGMENTED REALITY GLASSES WITH THE LITTLE CAMERAS IN THEM.

IT HAS SEEMED LIKE HE HAS NOT LEARNED OR, LIKE, NOT INCORPORATED THE FEEDBACK FROM THE PUBLIC.

AND I'LL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

THEY RECENTLY LAUNCHED A SECOND VERSION OF THE GLASSES THAT DON'T HAVE A CAMERA.

SO YOU HAVE A CAMERA VERSION AND A NO CAMERA VERSION.

A JOURNALIST ASKED HIM, LIKE, WOW, WE NOTICED YOU NOW HAVE A VERSION THAT DOESN'T HAVE A CAMERA.

IS THAT BECAUSE YOU HEARD THE FEEDBACK FROM PEOPLE THEY DON'T WANT TO SPIEN THEIR NEIGHBORS AND FRIENDS?

IS IT YOU'RE FINALLY INTEGRATING SOME OF THAT PRIVACY FEEDBACK?

AND HE SAID COMPLETELY WITH NO SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS --"NO, NO, IT'S SO MUCH CHEAPER. "

THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO PEOPLE WHO WANT A CHEEMER PRODUCT.

WHEN YOU GET RID OF THE CAMERAS THE FRAMES LOOK LIKE NORMAL GLASSES.

IT REALLY CONCERNED ME WHEN IT COMES TO A. I. BECAUSE HE'S EITHER NOT BEING TOLD ABOUT THE FEEDBACK FROM THE PUBLIC OR HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE FEEDBACK FROM THE PUBLIC.

WE DON'T KNOW WHICH.

WHEN YOU HAVE A SENIOR PERSON DIRECTING ONE OF THE FRONTIER A. I. LABS WHO'S NOT TAKING CARE OF THE IMPLICATIONS OF FRONTIER TECHNOLOGY, THAT'S A RISK FOR ALL OF US.

>> BRITTANY YOU BOTH, AS I SAID, LAUNCHED A WHISTLEBLOWER INITIATIVE, SO LET'S FAST FORWARD ABOUT SOME OF WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT STAY IN THE PRESENT OF THE REAL DANGER ABOUT A. I. WITHOUT HUMAN CONTROL.

DO YOU THINK THAT ANYTHING YOU'VE SEEN OR HEARD WHETHER IT'S FROM THE, YOU KNOW, A. I. TECH GIANTS TESTIFYING, WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, LESSONS LEARNED FROM THE SOCIAL MEDIA COURT CASES AND THINGS THAT HAVE RULED AGAINST THEM, DO YOU THINK THAT THERE LOOKS TO BE A WAY TO GOVERN A. I. IN A WAY THAT SOCIAL MEDIA WAS NOT?

>> I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST ISSUES WITH A. I. OR SUPER INTELLIGENCE IS THAT THESE PLATFORMS AND MODELS ARE COLLECTING COLLECTING POTENTIALLY MORE DATA THAN SOCIAL MEDIA WAS ABLE TO.

THEREFORE THEY CAN MORE QUICKLY AND CHEAPLY AND EASILY TARGET PEOPLE.

AND THAT MEANS NOT JUST ANYONE BUT ESPECIALLY RIGHT NOW AHEAD OF THE MID-TERMS AMERICANS.

AND TARGET OUR DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES.

IT IS VERY EASY FOR OUR FOREIGN ADVERSARIES TO SPREAD DISINFORMATION AT AN EXPONENTIAL RATE MORE THAN EVER BEFORE, AND WE'RE STARTING TO SEE THIS MORE AND MORE.

AND OPENA.

I. AND X BOTH HAVE IDENTIFIED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BIG ACCOUNTS FUNDED BY CHINA THAT WERE SPREADING DISINFORMATION SPECIFICALLY AGAINST A. I. AND THE BUILDING OF DATA CENTERS.

I THINK THIS ESPECIALLY IS A HUGE PROBLEM BECAUSE IT ALLOWS MORE OF OUR DATA TO BE PROCESSED BY OUR FOREIGN ADVERSARIES AND FOR US TO USE OPEN SOURCED CHINESE MODELS AND GIVE AWAY OUR DATA AND PROCESS OUR DATA ABROAD.

SO THESE ISSUES RIGHT AHEAD OF THE MID-TERMS ARE PROBABLY THE BIGGEST THING THAT WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHEN WE'RE GOING TO THE BALLOT BOX.

DO WE HAVE LEGISLATORS AND FUTURE POLITICIANS THAT DO CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES AND ARE GOING TO TAKE ACTION ON IT?

DO THEY HAVE THAT IN THEIR POLICY PLATFORM?

EVERYONE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT THIS WHEN YOU GO AND YOU VOTE ON NOVEMBER 3rd.

>> AND WE'VE GOT IN OUR LAST ONE MINUTE I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU BOTH TO QUICKLY OPINE.

IS THIS EVER GOING TO BE PACED, PAUSED, GOVERNED UNLESS YOU GET WORLD LEADERS --LET'S JUST SAY PRESIDENTS TRUMP AND XI --TO ACTUALLY HAVE SOME SORT OF ARMS CONTROL AGREEMENT, FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK BRITTANY QUICKLY, AND THEN I'LL ASK FRANCES.

>> I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST WAYS TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND OUR NATIONAL SECURITY IS TO MAKE SURE WE ARE IMPLEMENTING PRIVACY CENTRIC A. I. SOLUTIONS, LIKE CONFIDENTIAL COMPUTING, WHICH I'M WORKING ON EVERY DAY.

THAT ALLOWS US TO USE A. I. OR SUPER INTELLIGENCE WITHOUT GIVING AWAY ANY OF OUR DATA.

IT'S A SUPER ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGY WHICH MEANS WE CAN OWN IT FROM END TO END.

SO WE CAN STILL USE ALL THE GREAT THINGS SUPER INTELLIGENCE WILL BRING TO OURSELVES, OUR FAMILIES, OW COMPANIES, BUT WE NEVER GIVE AWAY THAT INFORMATION THAT ALLOWS US TO BE VULNERABLE AND TARGETED.

>> I THINK IT'S UNLIKELY THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE INTERNATIONAL UNIFIED ACTION UNTIL THERE'S SOME KIND OF UNIFIED CONSEQUENCE.

THERE WAS A BIG STORY OF A. I. LABS --I THINK IT WILL GET WORSE BEFORE IT GETS BETTER.

BUT MEW HOPE IS WHEN IT BECOMES EVIDENT WITH CONSEQUENCES WE ARE STARTING SEE LEVELS OF TECHNOLOGY LIKE CHIPS THAT SUPERVISE CHIPS THAT MAY ALLOW US TO PUT IN REGULATIONS THAT WOULD ALLOW FOR THEM.

>> WE NEED TO HAVE A LONGER CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS, BUT FOR NOW FRANCES HAUGEN AND BRITTANY KAISER, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

REALLY GREAT TO HAVE YOUR PER SPECTIVAL.

> >> NOW, $276 MILLION, THAT'S HOW MUCH ANOTHER TECH TITAN, ELON MUSK, HAS DONATE TODAY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY SINCE JULY HOPING TO KEEP THEM IN POWER AND FURTHER WIELD HIS OWN INFLUENCE.

BUT, AS WE KNOW, IT IS NOT HIS FIRST FORAY INTO POLITICS.

AT THE START OF TRUMP'S SECOND TERM MUSK WAS BROUGHT IN OSTENSIBLY TO CUT GOVERNMENT SPENDING AND BUREAUCRACY.

JUST FOUR MONTHS LATER, THOUGH, HE MADE AN ABRUPT EXIT.

IN HIS LATEST BOOK MICHAEL LEWIS EXPLORES THE CIVIL SERVANTS WHO RESISTED MUSK'S EFFORTS TO DISMANTLE GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS, AS HE NOW TELLS WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND MICHAEL LEWIS, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK, "BLOCKERS," LOOKS AT ELON MUSK'S ATTEMPT THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY, DOGE, TO REMAKE THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY.

FIRST OF ALL, WHY DID THAT STORTY APPEAL TO YOU?

>> A LITTLE BIT OF A BACK STORY.

I'D WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IT SEEMED TO ME LARGELY A STORY OF INDIFFERENCE AND NEGLECT AND GOT ME INTO CIVIL SERVICE.

ONCE I STARTED KICKING AROUND OBSCURE DEPARTMENTS OF GOVERNMENT LIKE I KNOW LIKE DEPARTMENTS OF AGRICULTURE OR ENERGY, I WAS SHOCKED BOTH BY JUST HOW INTERESTING WHAT WAS GOING ON INSIDE THEM WAS BUT ALSO PEOPLE.

AND SO I HAD THIS SENSE THAT, LIKE, I KNOW AS IMPLAUSIBLE AS IT SOUNDS THAT CIVIL SERVANTS WERE A GOLD MINE OF CHARACTERS.

AND TRUMP TWO COMES IN, AND THEY COME IN WITH A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AGENDA, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPIRIT.

THAT THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY --I MEAN, WHATEVER THEY SAID IT WAS A MASSIVE POWER GRAB, AND IT WAS AN ATTEMPT TO REMAKE THIS 2 MILLION-PERSON NONPARTISAN WORK FORCE INTO ESSENTIALLY A LOYALIST OPERATION THAT SERVED THE --NOT THE CONSTITUTION BUT THE INTEREST OF A SINGLE PERSON.

I THOUGHT THESE PEOPLE ARE INTERESTING.

WHAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN IS GOING TO SEE CHANGE THE INCENTIVES INSIDE THE GOVERNMENT THAT THE ACTUAL FUNCTIONS OF GOVERNMENT ARE GOING TO CHANGE.

HOW DO YOU TELL THAT STORY?

LIKE --AND DOGE FOR ME WAS REALLY JUST KIND OF THE BEGINNING OF IT.

I MEAN DOGE IS THE FIRST 80 PAGES OF THE BOOK OR WHATEVER, BUT DOGE, AS YOU KNOW, GOES AWAY.

AND I THOUGHT OF DOGE AS KIND OF LIKE A SMOKE SCREEN FOR A DEEPER AGENDA.

>> WHAT IS A BLOCKER?

THAT'S THE TITLE OF YOUR BOOK.

>> YOU OF ALL PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO ASK THAT QUESTION, BUT THE BLOCKER IS MUSK AND IT'S ALSO SILICON VALLEY'S FAVORITE TERM FOR SOMEONE AN EXISTING INSTITUTION WHO IS, LIKE, GETTING IN YOUR WAY WHEN YOU WANT TO MOVE IN AND MOVE FAST AND BREAK THINGS.

AND MUSK TOLD THE 25-YEAR-OLD MAN HE SENT OUT TO WREAK HAVOC INSIDE THE VARIOUS FEDERAL AGENCIES.

HE SAID FIND THE BLOCKERS, FIND THE BLOCKERS AND I'LL ELIMINATE THEM.

AND NOT ALL OF MY CHARACTERS BUT MOST OF MY CHARACTERS MET THE DEFINITION OF BLOCKER.

BUT MOSTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING WAS JUST NOT REFUSING --IT WAS REFUSING TO BREAK THE LAW.

I MEAN, THEY WEREN'T IMPEDING SOMETHING THAT WAS LEGAL.

THEY WERE LIKE TRYING TO STOP --I DON'T KNOW --THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY FROM USING TAX RETURNS AS WEAPONS.

THEY WERE DOING THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY SWORE AN OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION.

THEY SWORE AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE LAW, AND THEY WERE BLOCKING FOR VERY GOOD REASONS.

>> THERE'S A STORY ESPECIALLY NEAR THE END OF YOUR BOOK THAT JUST BLOWS ME AWAY, WHICH IS ABOUT A WATER FOUNTAIN.

TELL ME THAT STORY AND WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM IT.

>> WELL, AS A FELLOW WRITER, WALTER, SOMETIMES YOU KNOW A WATER FOUNTAIN ISN'T JUST A WATER FOUNTAIN.

SO THERE WAS A CHARACTER IN DOGE NAMED SAHILL OF INDIA, AND SAHILL DREW MY ATTENTION AND THE ATTENTION OF A NUMBER OF JOURNALISTS EARLY ON BECAUSE HE'D COME IN AND HE LOOKED DIFFERENT.

HE WAS IN HIS EARLY 30s.

HE'D MADE HIS MONEY.

HE'D COME BECAUSE HE REALLY WANTED TO FIX SOMETHING IN THE GOVERNMENT.

HE WANTED TO FIX THE IRS' TECHNOLOGY, AND INSTEAD HE GETS SHOVED IN THE VETERANS ADMINISTRATION, AND HE'S TOLD TO CUT CONTRACTS, AND HE KICKS AROUND INSIDE THE PLACE.

AND HE MAKES THE MISTAKE OF TELLING A JOURNALIST THAT ACTUALLY THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT AS INEFFICIENT AS I THOUGHT IT WAS, AND THAT AND A COUPLE OTHER THINGS GET HIM FIRED FROM DOGE.

HE THEN -- AFTER DOGE WASHES OUT, HE THEN IS INVITED BACK IN, AND HE COMES BACK IN TO DO THE THING HE WANTED TO DO.

AND HE GETS PUT INTO A BUILDING IN LOWER MANHATTAN THAT IS WHERE THE IRS OFFICES ARE, AND IT'S LIKE A NUCHREN BOMB HIT.

THERE'S NO ONE THERE.

THERE'S A LOT OF POSSESSIONS LEFT BEHIND.

IT'S AS DEDEPRESSING AS AN OFFICE DEBE.

AND HE GOES OUT TO GET A DRINK FROM A WATER FOUNTAIN AND IT DOESN'T WORK, AND HE GOES ON HIS OBSESSIVE QUEST TO FIX A GOVERNMENT WATER FOUNTAIN, AND IT TAKES MONTHS.

AND TAKES MONTHS, AND IT BECOMES A METAPHOR FOR HOW HARD IT IS FOR SOMEONE TO DO ANYTHING IN THE GOVERNMENT AND ALL THE DIFFERENT BOXES YOU NEED TO CHECK.

BUT IT IS --HE DOES FIX IT, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS A METAPHOR FOR A COUPLE OF THINGS, NOT JUST IT'S HARD TO DO THINGS IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

AND, YES, IT'S TOO HARD TO DO THINGS.

BUT THE KIND OF FIXES TO THOSE PROBLEMS ARE IN THE CONGRESS.

CONGRESS NEEDS TO DO STUFF.

BUT I THOUGHT SAHILL'S STORY WAS A BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLE OF PUBLIC SPIRIT, LIKE THIS INTEREST IN PUBLIC SERVICE.

HE DIDN'T JUST LOOK AND SAY THIS IS A PAIN AND I'M NOT GOING TO DO IT, IT'S BENEATH ME OR ANY OF THAT.

HE SAID I'M GOING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX THIS.

AND ONCE I FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX THIS, I WOULD HAVE FIGURED OUT HOW TO FIX A LOT MORE THAN THIS.

>> SO WHAT DID YOU DO ABOUT A WATER FOUNTAIN?

WHY WAS IT SO HARD, AND WHAT DID THEY DO?

>> WHAT'S FUNNY I THINK A LOT OF THINGS ARE LIKE THE WATER FOUNTAIN.

IT'S LIKE NO ONE EXACTLY IS IN CHARGE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE YOU CAN CALL.

NO ONE PERSON IS RESPONSIBLE WAS IN THIS CASE.

SO BUT HE WAS --HE WAS ON THE LINE TO PEOPLE IN SEATTLE, PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON, AND NEVER MIND THE PEOPLE INSIDE HIS OWN BUILDING WHO WERE MEANT TO BE THE MAINTENANCE PEOPLE.

SO I DO THINK THAT --I MEAN, IT ISN'T JUST THE --ALL MY CHARACTERS I THINK TO A PERSON IN THE BOOK AT SOME POINT HAVE SOME PROBLEM THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THAT IS --THE PROBLEM IS LARGER.

QUICK EXAMPLE.

ONE OF THE CHARACTERS IS A GREEK IMMIGRANT WHO INVENTS AN ENTIRE FIRE SCIENCE AND THE SCIENCE OF WILD AND URBAN INTERFACE FIRES.

IT'S THE FIRES WE ALL TALK ABOUT NOW.

AND HE'S BEEN ON IT FOR 25 YEARS, AND IT'S RIVETING THE WORK HE'S DONE.

TO DO THE WORK HE NEEDS TO USE THE BIG FIRE LAB THAT'S INSIDE OF AN ORGANIZATION CALLED THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF STANDARDS AND TECHNOLOGY.

HE'S ABLE TO DO THIS WORK BECAUSE HE RUNS THE LAB, AND HE CAN KIND OF --HE CAN SET THINGS ON FIRE IN BETWEEN WHEN THE LAB'S FREE.

UNTIL --I MEAN, HE STARTS THIS WORK IN 2003.

BUT UNTIL 2008 WHEN THERE IS A COMPLETELY UNRELATED ACCIDENT IN ANOTHER LAB, GOVERNMENT LAB IN COLORADO --WHICH LEADS TO A CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATION AND ALL THESE RULES PASSED.

WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO BEFORE YOU CAN DO AN EXPERIMENT.

AND ALL OF A SUDDEN HE HAS TO HAVE SIX SIGNATURES BEFORE HE CAN GO INTO HIS LAB AND SET A FIRE.

AND I THINK IT'S SORT OF LIKE THE WAY --THE WAY OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN MANAGED JUST GENERALLY FOR A LONG TIME IT'S SORT OF LIKE IT'S DESIGNED TO PREVENT ANYBODY FROM BEING EMBARRASSED OR FROM ACCIDENTS FROM HAPPENING BUT AT A COST.

AT A COST IT IS HARDER --IT'S HARDER TO DO THINGS.

THESE ARE --THESE ARE REAL THINGS TO ATTACK.

I MEAN, THESE ARE THINGS THAT A DOGE COULD HAVE ATTACKED, AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN INTERESTING.

BUT IT WOULD REQUIRED GOING TO CONGRESS, AND THEY DIDN'T REALLY HAVE ANY INTEREST IN THAT.

>> YOU PROFILE ALEX AND THERE'S AN ODD CONNECTION TO THE CABINET, TO HOWARD LUTNICK.

EXPLAIN --THAT SEEMED LIKE A LARGER METAPHOR FOR SOME OF THE PROBLEMS YOU TALKED ABOUT, TOO.

>> ON THE BACK END WAS THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, 9/11.

HE'D BEEN BROUGHT IN TO UNDERSTAND WHY THE TWIN TOWERS FELL BECAUSE NO ONE THOUGHT THE FIRES COULD GET AS HIGH AS THEY DID.

HE HAD RECONSTRUCTED THE TRADE TOWERS AND SHOWN HOW THE HEAT MELTED AND KIND OF THING.

AND THERE WAS A FACT TO THE POIGNANCY THAT HOWARD LUTNICK GETS MADE SECRETARY OF CONGRESS INSIDE THIS MIST SITS AND HOWARD LUTNICK HAD BEEN THE HEAD OF CANADA FAITS GERALD, WHOSE FIRM WHOSE ALL EMPLOYEES HAD DIED INCLUDING HOWERED LUTNICK'S BROTHER WHEN THE TOWERS COLLAPSED.

SO HOWARD HAD TO BASICALLY COMPLAIN TO HIS HIS OLD FIRM.

WHEN HE COMES INTO AND MAKES HISCIENCE UNDO-ABLE, CREDIT CARDS TAKEN AWAY.

IF YOU WANT TO SPEND $10,000 ON ANYTHING, I'VE GOT TO PERSONALLY APPROVE IT.

I'M NOT GOING TO BE AROUND TO PROVE IT BECAUSE I'M IN THE WHITE HOUSE ALL THE TIME.

IT JUST GOT --AND ALEX YOU TALK TO THESE PEOPLE --THESE ARE NOT NORMAL.

WHATEVER PEOPLE'S PICTURE IN THEIR HEAD OF BUREAUCRAT.

ALEX WAS WORKING 80 HOURS A WEEK DOING JAMES BOND CRAZY THINGS INSIDE OF FIRES, EXPERIMENTS THAT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND.

HE IS AN OBSESSED PERSON, AND HE'S BEEN AN OBSESSED PERSON FOR DECADES.

AND HE'S EXHAUSTED.

HE'S 56 YEARS OLD.

IT'S HARD ALREADY BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS THE WAY THE GOVERNMENT IS, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN HE LOOKS UP AND HE SAYS I CAN'T DO THIS ANYMORE.

I MEAN, IT'S JUST --HE'S MADE IT TOO HARD.

AND IT'S SUCH A WASTE OF TALENT AND ENERGY AND THIS SORT OF MISSION-DRIVEN APPROACH TO LIFE TO NOT --INSTEAD OF GETTING BEHIND THEM AND HELPING THEM LIKE TRYING TO CREATE A STRUCTURE WHERE THEY CAN DO THEIR THING, TO TREAT THEM WITH SUSPICION AND CONTEMPT AND ANGER AND ALL THAT STUFF, IT'S SO COUNTER PRODUCTIVE.

SO ALEX IS, YOU KNOW, PREPPING HIS SAILBOAT TO SAIL BACK TO GREECE WHERE HE CAME FROM.

BUT TOUCHINGLY, LIKE, HE QUIT IN MAYBE JUNE OF LAST YEAR.

FOR THE LAST YEAR HE'S KEPT ALL OF HIS GOVERNMENT LAPTOPS AND STUFF, AND HE'S BEEN TRYING -- WORKING FOR FREE TO TRY TO GET SOME OF THIS KNOWLEDGE --PRESERVE SOME OF THIS KNOWLEDGE INSIDE THE DEPARTMENT.

>> ONE OF THE GREAT STORIES ABOUT "BLOCKERS" IS THE U. S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE.

EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENS THERE.

>> WELL, THIS IS --YOU KNOW, IT OPENS THE BOOK.

AND IT OPENS THE BOOK BECAUSE THE INSTITUTE I'D NEVER HEARD.

I'D WRITTEN THE FIFTH RISK ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHO IS GOVERNMENT, ABOUT A BUNCH OF CIVIL SERVANTS.

I SPENT A LOT OF TIME KICKING AROUND THE GOVERNMENT, AND I'D NEVER HEARD OF THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE.

AND THEN I READ IN THE NEWSPAPER THAT DOGE IS INVADING THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE.

AND I FELT LIKE HOW'D I MISS THIS, WHAT IS THIS PLACE?

AND IT'S ONE OF LIKE MANY CONGRESSIONALLY CHARTERED INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE ONLY QUASI GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS.

MOVING AWAY AND TAKING AWAY THEIR MONEY IS LIKE TAKING AWAY YOUR HOUSE.

SO I OPEN THE BOOK THERE BECAUSE TO ME IT SUGGESTED THIS NEW APPROACH TO GOVERNMENT, THAT TRUMP ONE WAS ABOUT, LIKE, I DON'T CARE WHAT'S IN THE GOVERNMENT.

IT'LL TAKE ME AN HOUR TO FIGURE IT OUT AND, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER.

TRUMP TWO IS ABOUT NOT JUST RUNNING IT LIKE WITH --EITHER IN A RUTHLESS NEW WAY, BUT RUNNING PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT YOU WEREN'T EVEN SUPPOSED TO RUN.

LIKE THE PRESIDENT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO TAKE CONTROL OF THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE.

THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE IS SORT OF BE AT ARMS LENGTH OF THE GOVERNMENT SO IT FUNCTION SORT OF ON BEHALF OF THE UNITED STATES AND SORT OF NOT.

SO THEY CAN GO IN AND --I DON'T KNOW --TALK TO THE TALIBAN AND THE TALIBAN ISN'T EXACTLY TALKING TO THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT.

SO THE OTHER THING THAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME ABOUT THE INVASION OF THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE ASIDE FROM THE INVASION OF THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE BEING KIND OF A FUNNY IDEA WAS THE GUY SUPPOSED TO PROTECT THE BUILDING -- HIS NAME IS O'BRIEN, A FORMER LINEBACKER, TOUGH GUY, A SHREWD GUY, AND HE MADE THE POINT YOU DON'T --THIS DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A VIOLENT ACT.

IT SEEMS LIKE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE IN SUITS TAKING OVER A BUILDING.

BUT IF YOU LOOKED AT WHAT HAPPENED --WHAT HAPPENED THEY GOT THE GUNS FIRST.

THAT WE THE INSTITUTE OF PEACE, WE HAD A SECURITY DETAIL WITH LOTS OF GUNS IN THE BASEMENT.

DOGE CALLED THE SECURITY COMPANY AND SAID IF YOU DON'T FLIP AND WORK WITH US INSTEAD OF AGAINST US, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR STATE DEPARTMENT CONTRACT.

SO THEY FLIPPED THOSE GUNS.

COLLIN IS REALLY GOOD AT SORT OF THE CAT AND MOUSE GAME OF KEEPING THE BUILDING.

WHEN HIS OWN SECURITY FORCE COMES IN AND TRIES TO TAKE THE BUILDING FROM HIM, HE HERMETICALLY SEALS A PART OF THE BUILDING AND THEY'RE LOCKED.

THEY'RE, LIKE, TRAPPED IN THE BUILDING, HE CALLS THE D. C. POLICE TO COME AND GET THEM FOR TRESPASSING.

D. C. POLICE AND THEIR GUNS HAVE BEEN FLIPPED TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

NO, THE WORLD HAD CHANGED AND ALL THE GUNS WERE POINTED AT HIM.

HIS POINT WAS LIKE YOU DON'T REALLY THINK ABOUT THE GUNS, BUT WHO HAS THE GUNS IS ACTUALLY A PRETTY IMPORTANT THING.

AND THEY WERE AWARE OF IT.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER ONES INVOLVES KATHLEEN WATERS, AND SHE WAS AT THE IRS, AND IT WAS A QUESTION ABOUT GIVING IRS DATA, ABOUT UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS, AND GIVING OUT THEIR ADDRESS SO THAT THERE COULD BE ENFORCEMENT AGAINST THEM.

>> SO KATHLEEN WALTERS WAS THE CHIEF PRIVACY OFFICER OF THE IRS.

AND THAT MEANT SHE IS THE HUMAN BEING BETWEEN YOUR TAX RETURN AND ANY WHITE HOUSE THAT MIGHT SEEK TO WEAPONIZE AGAINST YOU.

SOON AFTER THE INAUGURATION SHE STARTS TO GET PRESSURED FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY TO RELEASE A DATABASE OF 7 MILLION RETURNS ON UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS.

AND THIS DATABASE, IT WAS A -- IN THE 1990s CONGRESS CREATED A MECHANISM FOR UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS TO PAY TAXES.

I MEAN, I DIDN'TVEN KNOW THIS EXISTED BUT IT'S INTERESTING.

MORE THAN $100 MILLION OF TAXES WERE COLLECTED FROM THIS POPULATION.

AND THE IRS AND THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT HAVE TOLD THIS POPULATION, LIKE, YOU'RE GOING TO FILE THIS TAX RETURN AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS.

WE KNOW YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE, BUT THIS IS A WAY FOR YOU TO ESTABLISH YOU'RE PART OF THE SOLUTION AND NOT PART OF THE PROBLEM.

AND THE --THAT DATABASE HAD THE MOST RECENT MOST CURRENT HOME ADDRESS OF THESE PEOPLE.

AND I. C. E.

--SOMETHING CALLED THE I. C. E. INNOVATION LAB INSIDE THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, FIGURED OUT IF THEY COULD GET THEIR HANDS ON THIS THEY COULD RAID PEOPLE'S HOMES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

AND KATHLEEN SAID THAT'S AGAINST THE LAW.

IT ENDS UP COSTING HER HER JOB, AND SHE AFTER DECADES IN THE IRS.

AND NO ONE EVER THOUGHT SHE WAS PARTISAN OR NOT GOOD AT HER JOB OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

SHE WAS JUST STANDING ON PRINCIPLE.

AND SOME NUMBER OF THOSE RETURNS GOT HANDED OVER TO I. C. E. WHETHER IT WAS 48,000 OR 7 MILLION NOBODY KNOWS.

BUT PEOPLE - - AROUND THE COUNTRY PEOPLE WERE ROUNDED UP USING THOSE RETURNS.

>> DOES THAT MAKE IT LESS LIKELY THAT THESE UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS WILL PAY TAXES AND THAT'LL END UP REDUCING TAXES?

>> OH, I THINK -- I THINK MORE THAN THAT.

FOR SURE THAT'S TRUE.

LIKE, FOR SURE IF ALL OF A SUDDEN WORD IS OUT IN THE COMMUNITY IF YOU FILE A TAX RETURN, THEY'RE GOING TO COME AND FIND YOU.

SURE IT'S GOING TO HIT TAX REVENUE, BUT IT'S MORE THAN THAT.

THE GOVERNMENT COLLECTS ALL KINDS OF DATA THAT IS --AND IT'S A MASSIVE DATA COLLECTION MACHINE.

IT'S AMAZING WHAT THE GOVERNMENT COUNTS.

AND IT ENABLES US TO GET A PICTURE OF THE REALITY WE LIVE IN.

IT ENABLES PEOPLE TO MAKE BETTER DECISIONS WHETHER IT'S CLIMATE DATA OR ECONOMIC STATISTICS OR WHATEVER.

AND IF ALL OF A SUDDEN DATA THAT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE WEAPONIZED GETS WEAPONIZED, I THINK IT POLLUTES, CORRUPTS THE GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO GET A PICTURE OF THE SOCIETY.

I MEAN, I THINK THIS -- THIS LOOKS LIKE A LITTLE THING -- MIGHT EVEN PLEASE SOME PEOPLE.

OH, GOOD, ROUND UP THOSE PEOPLE.

BUT, IF, IN FACT, YOU CAN'T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT WITH YOUR DATA, THEN WE GOT A WAY BIGGER PROBLEM THAN UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS NOT PAYING THEIR TAXES.

>> MICHAEL LEWIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

> >> AND THAT'S ALL WE HAVE TIME FOR TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON OUR SHOW EVERY NIGHT, JUST SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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