>> NEXT, YALE AND HARVARD LAW

SCHOOLS HAVE WITHDRAWN THEIR

PARTICIPATION BY THE U.S. NEWS

AND WORLD REPORTS SAYING THAT IT

UNDERMINES THE COMMITMENTS OF

THE LEGAL PROFESSION.

DESPITE TAKING TOP SPOT EVERY

YEAR, YALE WAS THE FIRST TO

ANNOUNCE THIS CHANGE.

HEATHER IS THE DEAN OF YALE LAW

SCHOOL AND JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN

TO DISCUSS THEIR DECISION.

THIS CONVERSATION IS PART OF OUR

ON GOING INITIATIVE ABOUT

POVERTY, JOBS AND ECONOMIC

OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA.

CALLED CHASING THE DREAM.

>> THANKS, SARAH.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME,

MICHELLE.

>> AS DEAN OF YALE'S LAW SCHOOL,

THE SCHOOL WILL BE PULLING OUT

FROM THE U.S. NEWS AND WORLD

REPORT RANKINGS YOU ARE FOLLOWED

BY HARD SLARD LAW SCHOOL AND

BERKELEY LAW AND WE UNDERSTAND

THAT THE UNIVERSITY OF

PENNSYLVANIA, STANFORD AND

NORTHWESTERN LAW SCHOOLS SAY

THEY ARE ALSO CONSIDERING THIS

MOVE, AS WELL.

YOU ANNOUNCED THIS IN AN OPEN

LETTER YOU EXPLAINED YOUR

REASONING AND SAY THESE RANKINGS

WHICH ARE FROM A FOR PROFIT

ENTITY AND THEY DISCOURAGE LAW

SCHOOLS FROM WHAT IS DOING BEST

FOR LEGAL EDUCATION.

YOU WROTE AN OPEN LETTER AND

PEOPLE CAN READ IT IN ITS

ENTIRETY.

AS BRIEFLY AS YOU CAN, TELL US

WHY YOU SAY THAT.

>> SURE, THE TROUBLE WITH THE

U.S. NEWS RANKINGS IS OVER THE

LAST NUMBER OF YEARS, THEY

STARTED TO CREATE A SET OF MET

TRICKS THAT ARE FUNDAMENTALLY

AGAINST THE BASIC COMMITMENTS OF

THE PROFESSION AND I'LL FOCUS ON

TWO OF THEM.

ONE SERVICE IS THE TOUCH STONE

OF THIS PROFESSION AND YET, U.S.

NEWS SYSTEMATICALLY UNDERMINES

THE ABILITY OF LAW SCHOOLS TO

SUPPORT STUDENTS WHO WANT TO DO

PUBLIC INTEREST WORK.

LET ME GIVE YOU ONE TINY

EXAMPLE.

WE CREATE AMAZING FELLOWSHIPS

FOR STUDENTS.

WE HAVE MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE

DOES IN ANY LAW SCHOOL SO WE

WORK FOR ONE YEAR ON OUR DIME AT

A PUBLIC INTEREST ORGANIZATION.

THEY'RE AMAZING.

GUESS WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE

STUDENTS?

THEY'RE COUNTED LIKE THEY'RE

FUNCTIONALLY UNEMPLOYED.

IF YOU'RE A LAW SCHOOL AT ANY

OTHER PLACE AND WANT TO CREATE A

PROGRAM LIKE THIS, THERE IS NO

WAY YOU'LL DO IT BECAUSE IT WILL

MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE A LOW

EMPLOYMENT SCHOOL SO SENDS A

FALSE SIGNAL TO STUDENTS.

THE OTHER THING THAT IS DAMAGING

ABOUT RANKINGS IS WHAT THEY DO

FOR LOW INCOME STUDENTS THIS IS

A MOMENT WHEN EQUITY IS AT THE

CENTER OF CONVERSATIONS ABOUT

UNIVERSITIES AND YET, U.S. NEWS

UNDERMINES THE INCENTIVES OF LAW

SCHOOLS TO DO MANY THINGS THAT

SUPPORT LOW INCOME STUDENTS EVEN

ADMITTING THEM BECOME AS RISK

UNDER THE RANKINGS.

>> TELL ME IN WHAT WAY DO THE

RANKINGS UNDERMINE -- IS IT THAT

THEY DISCOURAGE LOWER INCOME

STUDENTS FROM APPLYING?

>> THERE ARE A COUPLE EXAMPLES.

U.S. NEWS RECOGNIZES THAT DEBT

LOAD MATTERS FOR STUDENTS WITH

LOW INCOME.

THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT

THAT AND ADMIRABLE THEY TRIED TO

HELP IT BY MEASURING IT.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE MET RRICS AR

SO CRUDE THEY SEND THE WRONG

SIGNAL.

LET ME GIVE YOU A COUPLE

EXAMPLES.

FIRST, LOAN FORGIVENESS IS ONE

OF THE BEST THINGS LAW SCHOOLS

DO.

THEY SUPPORT PUBLIC INTEREST AND

REALLY HELP LOW INCOME.

WE CAN FORGIVE LOANS OVER TEN

YEARS BUT IN CALCULATING DEBT

LOAD.

THAT'S NOT INCLUDED IN THE DEBT

LOAD CALCULATIONS.

GIVE YOU ANOTHER EXAMPLE, IF YOU

HAVE A CHOICE AND YOU'RE A LAW

SCHOOL WORRIED ABOUT YOUR

RANKINGS AND CHOOSING BETWEEN

LOW INCOME STUDENT AND SOMEONE

WHO ISN'T, YOU'D THINK WELL, IF

I BRING THAT LOW INCOME STUDENT

IN, THEY HAVE HIGHER NEEDS,

HIGHER DEBT NEEDS AND SO IT'S A

RISK IF I BRING THAT STUDENT IN

BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO INCREASE

MY DEBT LOAD RANKING.

YOU CAN SOLVE THAT PROBLEM BY

JUST TALKING ABOUT HOW MUCH

FINANCIAL AID DO YOU GIVE TO

STUDENTS BUT THAT RECEIVES MUCH,

MUCH LESS WEIGHT IN THE RANKING

AND THEN THE LAST PIECE OF IT

I'LL SAY IS THAT U.S. NEWS

REALLY EMPHASIZES LSATs AND GPSs

AND THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY IMPORTANT

IN EVALUATING A CANDIDATE BUT

THEY'RE NOT THE FULL MEASURE OF

A PERSON AND PARTICULARLY FOR A

LOW INCOME STUDENT WHO CAN'T

AFFORD TO SPEND THOUSANDS OF

DOLLARS ON COURSES AND PREP.

YOU WANT TOED A ED ED A MID A S

WITH PROMISE, WHAT HAPPENS IS

ONE, PEOPLE ARE NERVOUS ABOUT

TAKING THE STUDENTS BECAUSE IT

MAY LOWER THE LSAT SCORE AND

TWO, FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, THIS

IS KILLER, MANY, MANY OF OUR

PEERS ARE USING FINANCIAL AID TO

BRING STUDENTS WITH HIGH SCORES

TO CAMPUS.

THEY'RE CALLED MERIT

SCHOLARSHIPS AND THE REASONS

DEANS DO THEM IS KEEP RANKINGS

UP.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF

DOLLARS, MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE

GOING INTO THE HANDS OF STUDENTS

WHO MAY BE ABLE TO PAY AND HAVE

PLENTY OF MONEY TO PAY TUITION

BUT THEY'RE GETTING TUITION

DISCOUNTS AND MERIT SCHOLARSHIPS

AND MEANWHILE, THAT'S PULLING

MONEY AWAY FROM FINANCIAL AID

FOR THE STUDENTS THAT NEED IT

THE MOST.

WE HAVE DONE JUST THE OPPOSITE.

WE HAVE NEVER GIVEN OUT

SCHOLARSHIP BASED ON SCORES.

WE'RE ENTIRELY NEEDS BASED.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, WE WERE THE

FIRST LAW SCHOOL IN THE COUNTRY

LAST YEAR TO CREATE FULL TUITION

SCHOLARSHIPS FOR THE MANY

STUDENTS AT OUR SCHOOL WHO COME

FROM FAMILIES BELOW THE POVERTY

LINE.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT LAW

SCHOOLS SHOULD FEEL FREE TO DO

BUT THE U.S. NEWS RANKINGS MAKE

IT HARDER TO DO IT.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS YOUR

DECISION AND THIS STANDS OUT OR

THE DECISION BY YALE LAW SCHOOL

STANDS OUT IS YALE IS RANKED

NUMBER ONE FOR WHAT?

THE ENTIRETY OF THE TIME THAT

THESE RANKING HAVES BEEN TAKING

PLACE.

SO SOME MIGHT ARGUE WHAT'S THE

BEEF?

IT'S NOT DISCOURAGING YALE FROM

DOING THESE THINGS.

>> THIS IS NOT ABOUT YALE LAW

SCHOOL.

THIS IS ABOUT LEGAL EDUCATION

AND THE LEGAL PROFESSION.

IF YOU SAID TO EVERY LAW SCHOOL

DEAN IN THE COUNTRY, WE WANT YOU

TO GIVE DATA SOLELY, NOT DATA

FOR EVERYBODY, DATA TO A FOR

PROFIT ENTITY TO RANK BASED ON

THAT FORMULA, NO ONE WOULD JOIN

THAT.

WE DECIDED TO TAKE A STEP BACK

AND MY SECOND TEAM AS DEAN.

I WANT YALE LAW SCHOOL TO JOIN

THE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE

FUTURE OF LEGAL EDUCATION.

WE NEVER ADVERTISED OUR RANKING

AND WE ARE PART OF A SYSTEM.

WE DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THAT

SYSTEM ANYMORE.

>> PEOPLE COMPARED ABOUT THESE

RANKINGS FOR YEARS AND TALKED

ABOUT HOW BIAS THEY ARE AND NOT

REALLY RELEVANT TO THE PURPOSE

OF HIGHER EDUCATION.

I'M CURIOUS WHY NOW?

>> IT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I BELIEVE IN DATA AND

TRANSPARENCY.

I'M NOT AFRAID OF THE WAY

RANKINGS WORK WHEN THEY'RE DONE

WELL.

RANKING IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE

METHODOLOGY IN WHICH IT ALIES

AND I UNDERSTAND THAT STUDENTS

PARTICULARLY AGAIN LOW INCOME

STUDENTS NEED SOME MEANS OF

TRYING TO MEASURE THE

DIFFERENCES AMONG LAW SCHOOLS.

SO THE LAST FIVE YEARS, AND U.S.

NEWS ADDED ONE MET TRICK AFTER

ANOTHER THAT IS JUST FURTHER

UNDERMINED THE GOALS OF THE

LEGAL PROFESSION SO THAT MET

TRICK IS A NEW ONE AND I SHOULD

ALSO JUST SAY I REALLY BELIEVE

IN TRYING TO GIVE PEOPLE A

CHANCE TO CHANGE AND WORKING

INSIDE AN INSTITUTION.

FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS, THE

DEANS ARE WORKING REALLY HARD TO

GET U.S. NEWS TO CHANGE THE MET

TRICKS.

WHEN I FIRST BECAME DEAN, I

WORKED WITH A BUNCH OF DEANS TO

WRITE A LETTER ON THAT QUESTION

OF THE PUBLIC INTEREST

FELLOWSHIPS.

NOTHING CHANGED.

WE GAVE THEM A CHANCE TO DO

BETTER AND RIGHT BY THE LEGAL

PROFESSION AND THEY DID NOT SO

IT FELT LIKE NOW IS THE TIME TO

TAKE A STEP BACK AND REFLECT AND

THINK ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING.

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING,

U.S. NEWS, WHAT THEY SAID IN

RESPONSE IS THE FOLLOWING.

I'LL READ IT.

U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT WILL

CONTINUE TO RANK FULLY ACC

ACCREDITED LAW SCHOOLS

REGARDLESS IF SCHOOLS SUBMIT

DATA AND RESPECT EACH SCHOOL'S

DECISION IN THAT THE RANKINGS

ARE DESIGNED FOR STUDENTS

SEEKING TO MAKE THE BEST

DECISION FOR THEIR LEGAL

EDUCATION AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO

PURSUE OUR MISSION TO ENSURE

STUDENTS CAN RELY ON THE BEST

AND MOST ACCURATE INFORMATION

USING THE RANKINGS AS ONE FACTOR

IN THE LAW SCHOOLS S S SEARCH.

HOW DO YOU READ THAT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY'RE SAYING

HERE?

>> U.S. NEWS IS WELCOME TO DO

WHATEVER IT WANTS MISSING HALF

THE DATA IT RANKED BEFORE.

IT'S COMPLETELY ITS DECISION.

IT IS NOT THE BEST AND MOST

ACCURATE DATA AND THEY HAVE

PACKAGED THIS AS WHAT THE BEST

LAW SCHOOLS ARE.

THE TROUBLE IS THEY'RE TRYING TO

TALK TO TOO MANY CONSTITUENTS

THINKING ABOUT TOO MANY THINGS

AND MEASURING THINGS THAT CAN'T

BE MEASURED IN THE WAY THEY MESS

S

-- MEASURE THEM.

I WANT TO BE COMPLETELY

TRANSPARENT ABOUT DATA AND

PROVIDE THE INFORMATION STUDENTS

NEED BUT THEY'RE NOT DOING IT

RIGHT NOW.

THEY'RE SENDING A FALSE SIGNAL

TO STUDENTS WHO CARE ABOUT

PUBLIC INTEREST WORK.

THEY'RE SENDING A FALSE SIGNAL

TO LOW INCOME STUDENTS SO WE'LL

PROVIDE DATA FOR THE STUDENTS

BUT PROVIDE IT IN A FORM THAT IS

ACCURATE AND THAT TRULY CAPTURES

THE KINDS OF CONCERNS THESE

STUDENTS HAVE.

>> LIKE WHAT ARE THEY?

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO

INSTEAD?

YALE DOESN'T NEED TO ADVERTISE

ITSELF.

NOR DOES HARVARD, NOR DOES

STANFORD.

WHAT WILL YOU DO INSTEAD?

>> SO I WILL JUST TELL YOU, I --

RIGHT NOW PRIVATELY FOR JUST

YALE WE'LL CREATE A YALE BY THE

NUMBERS.

SET OF INFORMATION FOR STUDENTS

AND SO IT'S GOING TO SAY, ARE

YOU INTERESTED IN PUBLIC

INTERESTS?

WHAT KINDS OF INFORMATION DO YOU

NEED TO KNOW?

WE'LL DISCLOSE THE DATA ON THAT

FRONT.

I'M ALSO RIGHT NOW IN

CONVERSATIONS WITH EXPERTS IN

HIGHER EDUCATION.

I AM REALLY HOPING THE YALE LAW

SCHOOL WILL LEAD ON THIS FRONT

AND HELP FIGURE OUT HOW TO

PROVIDE THE BEST, MOST USEFUL

DATA TO STUDENTS ACROSS THE

COUNTRY NO MATTER WHAT THEY'RE

SEEKING FROM A LAW SCHOOL WE

WANT STUDENTS TO COME HERE NOT

BECAUSE WE'RE NUMBER ONE AND NOT

BECAUSE OF OUR REPUTATION BUT

IT'S THE RIGHT PLACE FOR THEM.

>> THIS IS WHAT I'M GETTING

CONFUSED ABOUT.

WHO IS THIS DESIGNED TO SERVE?

IT SEEMS WHAT THIS REALLY DOES

IS GENERATE A LOT OF

APPLICATIONS FROM STUDENTS ALL

OVER THE WORLD WHO ARE NEVER

GOING TO GET INTO THESE SCHOOLS

SO THAT YOUR YIELD CAN BE SUPER

LOW AND I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT

WHO THIS SERVES.

>> IT'S WORSE THAN THAT.

I ACTUALLY THINK THE REAL

PROBLEM IS THEY ARE PREVENTING

LAW SCHOOLS FOR DOING RIGHT BY

THEIR FIRST AGGENERS AND STUDEN

GOING BACK AND SERVING THEIR

COMMUNITIES.

THEY'RE UNDERMINING THE

INCENTIVES FOR LAW SCHOOLS TO

HELP KPAKTIVE THE STUDENTS AND

LET ME JUST GIVE YOU THE

EXAMPLE.

THEY WANT TO GET HIGH SCHOOL

STUDENTS RATHER THAN PUT MONEY

IN THE HANDS OF THOSE WHO NEED

IT THE MOST.

THEY'RE WELCOME TO DO IT AND

SHOULD BUT THEY'RE NOT ALL DOING

IT FOR THAT REASON.

THEY'RE DOING IT BECAUSE THEY

FEEL THE PRESSURE OF U.S. NEWS

RANKINGS AND AFRAID TO SLIP AND

SO THEY'RE TAKING MILLIONS OF

DOLLARS AND PUTTING IT IN THE

HANDS OF STUDENTS WHO MAY HAVE

THE CAPACITY TO PAY WHERE THE

STUDENTS WHO REALLY NEED THAT

MONEY, THE STUDENTS WHO COME

FROM LOW INCOME BACKGROUNDS,

THAT'S 10% OF OUR CLASS.

10% OF OUR STUDENTS COME FROM

BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.

THAT'S WHERE THE FINANCIAL AID

IS GOING.

>> HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT'S WHERE

THAT SCHOLARSHIP MONEY IS GOING?

I THINK THERE ARE THOSE WHO

ARGUE THAT THOSE ARE DIAMONDS IN

THE ROUGH AS IT WERE.

THAT THESE STUDENTS MIGHT BE

HIGH SCORING BUT LOW INCOME.

HOW DO YOU KNOW IT'S GOING TO

STUDENTS WHO COULD AFFORD TO PAY

AND INVESTED IN EXPENSIVE TEST

PREP PROGRAMS THAT ARE NOW A

STANDARD PRACTICE FOR PEOPLE OF

MEANS BUT HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT

THAT'S IS THE REALITY.

>> IT'S NOT MEASURED BASED ON

FINANCIAL AID, FINANCIAL NEED.

THAT'S THE CORE OF IT.

THE DIAMONDS IN THE ROUGH ARE AT

YALE LAW SCHOOL.

THESE STUDENTS ARE THE MOST

ENTREPRENEUR STUDENTS ON THE

PLANET.

THEY GOT TO YALE DESPITE THE

OBSTACLES PUT IN THEIR WAY AND

YET, $26,000 FOR A FAMILY OF

FOUR IS THE POVERTY LINE AND

THOSE STUDENTS HAVE NONETHELESS

MADE IT TO YALE LAW SCHOOL.

WE WANT TO LIFT THE BURDEN OF

GOING TO LAW SCHOOL.

THIS SPECIAL FOR ME.

MANY YEARS AGO AS A LAW STUDENT,

MY PARENTS WEREN'T PAYING FOR MY

LEGAL EDUCATION AND I WAS GIVEN

ONE OF THOSE MERIT SCHOLARSHIPS.

I TURNED DOWN YALE TO GO TO A

MICHIGAN LAW SCHOOL.

IT WAS A GREAT EDUCATION AND

MEANT AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT TO ME

TO BE TUITION FREE BUT NOW THAT

I'M DEAN AND I'M SEEING WHERE

OUR STUDENTS ARE COMING FROM

ESPECIALLY THOSE STUDENTS FROM

ALLOW THE POVERTY LINE, THE

THING THAT HAUNTS ME IS I'M SURE

I WAS NOT THE NEEDIEST KID IN

THE CLASS.

I WAS NOT THE NEEDIEST KID IN

THE CLASS BUT AS DEAN OF YALE

LAW SCHOOL I WANT THAT FINANCIAL

AID TO GO.

>> HERE IS THE OTHER SIDE.

YALE, HARVARD, STANFORD,

NORTHWESTERN, MICHIGAN, YOU

KNOW, THESE RANKINGS AREN'T

RELEVANT.

YOU'RE SO WELL-KNOWN AROUND THE

WORLD THAT PEOPLE WILL APPLY NO

MATTER WHAT.

THE ARGUMENT IS WITH THE SCHOOLS

THAT AREN'T AS WELL-KNOWN AND

THESE RANKINGS ARE A WAY FOR

THEM TO ADVERTISE THEMSELVES AND

THEY'RE A WAY TO PERSUADE

STUDENTS TO GIVE THEM A LOOK.

IS THERE A PMERIT TO THAT?

>> I BELIEVE IN DATA

TRANSPARENCY AND BETTER

RANKINGS.

I DON'T WANT TO DOWN PLAY THE

IMPORTANCE OF PROVIDING

INFORMATION BUT THIS IS NOT A

GOOD ONE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE

DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION HAS BEEN

LEADING ON IS THINKING HOW DO

YOU PROVIDE DATA IN A WAY TO

HELP STUDENTS THAT NEED IT THE

MOST?

WE WANT TO FOLLOW THE LEAD.

IT'S TIME FOR LEGAL EDUCATION TO

DO THE SAME.

>> AND I RECOGNIZE THAT YOU SAID

SEVERAL TIMES THIS IS NOT ABOUT

YALE LAW SCHOOLS BUT ABOUT LEGAL

EDUCATION MORE BROADLY.

WHAT ABOUT HIGHER EDUCATION?

I MEAN, BY IMPLICATION, ARE YOU

SUGGESTING THAT COLLEGES AND

UNIVERSITIES OVERALL SHOULD

CONSIDER THIS STEP?

>> YOU KNOW, SO I HAVE NOT

ENOUGH -- WHEN YOU'RE DEAN

YOU'RE IN THE WEEDS BEFORE YOU

MAKE A DECISION.

I'M NOT ENOUGH IN THE WEEDS TO

UNDERSTAND HOW THESE RANKINGS

WORK.

WHEN I THINK ABOUT THE MISSION

OF LEGAL EDUCATION, OUR STUDENTS

ARE INHERITING AN IMPOSSIBLE SET

OF PROBLEMS TO SOLVE AND OUR JOB

IS TO TEACH THEM TO SOLVE THEM

BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO LEAD

AND DO IMPORTANT WORK IN THE

WORLD SO IN ORDER TO DO THAT,

THERE IS TWO THINGS YOU GOT TO

DO.

ONE IS YOU GOT TO THINK HOW TO

TRAIN THEM FOR THOSE JOBS AND

WE'RE WORKING ON THAT INSIDE THE

SCHOOL, AS WELL BUT OTHERS YOU

HAVE TO HAVE EVERYONE AT THE

TABLE TO SOVRL LVE THOSE PROBLE

AND TO ME STEPPING AWAY FROM THE

RANKINGS IS PART OF OUR EFFORT

TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE EVERYBODY

AT THE TABLE FOR THE

CONVERSATION AND LAUNCHING THEM

TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE AT THE

TABLE FOR THE CONVERSATION GOING

FORWARD.

>> WHERE DOES THE QUESTION OF

LEGACY FIT INTO THIS BECAUSE

THIS IS, AS WE KNOW, PART OF

THIS CONVERSATION AROUND

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, THE BOOK AND

CONVERSATION IS AROUND LEGACY,

RIGHT?

PEOPLE WHOSE PARENTS ATTENDED

THESE INSTITUTIONS, THEIR

OFFSPRING HAVE A LEG UP AND THE

ALUMNI TEND TO BE, YOU KNOW,

CONSISTENT SUPPORTERS OF THE

SCHOOL FINANCIALLY.

AND THAT'S PARTLY WHY THIS SORT

OF CYCLE PERPETUATES ITSELF.

YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY SAYING THERE IS

A WHOLE RANGE OF ACTIVITIES LIKE

PUBLIC INTEREST LAW, THERE IS A

WHOLE RANGE OF PROFESSIONS THAT

WE NEED PEOPLE TO GO INTO THAT

AREN'T GOING TO NECESSARILY BE

RENUMTIVE BUT DO A LOT FOR

SOCIETY.

HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THOSE TWO

THINGS I

THINGS IN TANDEM?

>> WE HAVE NO LEGACY REFERENCE,

ZERO.

THERE IS NONE.

IN FACT, ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE

DONE UNDER MY DEANSHIP IS

FOCUSED ON STUDENTS WHO COME

WITH FAMILY WHOSE HAVEN'T GONE

TO COLLEGE, COME FROM FAMILY

MEMBERS WHO HAVEN'T GONE TO

GRADUATE AND PROFESSIONAL

SCHOOL.

THAT NUMBER INCREASED BY 100%

FOR ONE GROUP AND 80% FOR

ANOTHER.

THERE IS REASON FOR THAT.

WE HAVE REALLY FOCUSED ON

ADMISSIONS NOT HOW FAR STUDENTS

HAVE GONE BUT HOW FAR THEY'VE

COME AND SO THAT'S WHY WE'VE HAD

THIS ABSOLUTELY RADICAL CHANGE

IN THE MAKEUP OF OUR STUDENT

BODY.

WHEN I STARTED, WE WERE ROUGHLY

32% STUDENTS OF COLOR, STEADY

STATE FOR TEN YEARS 54%.

THIS YEAR IN THE SIXTH MOST

DIVERSE CLASSES HAVE BEEN UNDER

MY DEANSHIP AND WE'VE

DRAMATICALLY INCREASED THE

NUMBER OF STUDENTS FROM BELOW

THE POVERTY LINE.

WE'RE REALLY LOOKING TO WHAT WE

UNDERSTAND AT THE LAW SCHOOL TO

BE MERIT.

AND THAT IS A MEASURE HOW FAR

YOU'VE COME.

>> HOW WILL YOU KNOW WHETHER YOU

ARE THIS MOVE HAS SUCCEEDED IN

WHAT YOU HOPED THAT IT WOULD --

WHEN -- YOU KNOW, WHAT METRIC

SHOULD WE USE TO EVALUATE

WHETHER YOU AND THE OTHER DEANS

HAVE ACCOMPLISHED WHEN YOU HOPE

TO HERE?

>> TO ME THE MET TRIRIC IS FIVE

YEARS FROM NOW LAW SCHOOL DEANS

FEEL RIGHT TO DO BY THE VALUES

OF THE PROFESSION AND STUDENTS,

WE WILL HAVE SUCCEEDED.

THAT'S WHAT I HOPE TO DO.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING

WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME,