>>> AFTER THE SUPREME COURT RULING STRIKING DOWN THE STUDENT DEBT RELIEF PROGRAM, LOAN INTERESTS RESUME ON SEPTEMBER 1st OF 323 AND PAYMENTS WILL BE DUE IN OCTOBER.

THE CONSUMER FINANCIAL PROTECTION BUREAU ESTIMATES ONE IN FIVE BORROWERS WILL STRUGGLE TO MAKE PAYMENTS.

THERE IS A PODCAST AND JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS HOW PEOPLE WILL BE IMPACTED BY THESE CHANGES.

THIS IS PART OF THE ONGOING INITIATIVE ABOUT POVERTY, JOBS, AND ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA CALLED CHASING THE DREAM.>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME TODAY.>> ARE KIND OF A FINANCIAL ADVICE EXPERT AND AUTHOR.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN BOOKS AND YOU WRITE A COLUMN.

WE CALLED YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE A NETWORK OF PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THE STUDENT LOAN PHENOMENON OR CRISIS, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.

STUDENT LOAN INTEREST WILL RESUME ON SEPTEMBER 1st, PAYMENTS WILL BE DUE IN OCTOBER.

THAT IS ACCORDING TO THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

ARE YOU HEARING FROM BORROWERS AND WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU?>> A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FRUSTRATED, AND I CAN UNDERSTAND WHERE THEY'RE COMING FROM THEIR EXPECTATIONS HAVE BEEN MISMANAGED.

THERE WAS SO MUCH EXPECTATION WHEN IT CAME TO LOANS BEING FORGIVEN, AND WHEN THE SUPREME COURT STRUCK IT DOWN, PEOPLE FEEL LEFT OUT.

IT KIND OF FEELS LIKE SOMEBODY'S TELLING YOU IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS YOU WILL HAVE AN AMAZING BIRTHDAY PARTY AND WE WILL HAVE CAKE AND ALL YOUR FRIENDS WILL BE THERE, AND THE NEWS CHANGES AND THEN, ACTUALLY, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A BIRTHDAY PARTY AND YOU HAVE TO EAT A TOMATO, AND I HOPE YOU HAVE A GREAT TIME.

I WANT TO ILLUSTRATE THAT PEOPLE HAD AN IDEA IN THEIR MIND AND BELIEVES THAT STUDENT LOANS WOULD BE FORGIVEN AND NOW THAT THEY HAVE TO RESUME PAYMENTS, THEY FEEL FRUSTRATED.

I WILL SAY, THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN CRITICAL ALL ALONG AND THOUGHT THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT GOING TO HELP ME, AND I FEEL LIKE THOSE FOLKS FEEL A LOT MORE EMOTIONALLY PREPARED TO START PAYING AGAIN.>> PEOPLE KNEW THERE WAS A POLICY PUSH TO FORGIVE THESE, THE PEOPLE HAVE NOT BEEN PAYING THEM.

WHAT DIFFERENCE DO YOU THINK THIS HAS MADE TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE IN TOUCH WITH AND TO THE PEOPLE WHOSE FINANCIAL SITUATIONS YOU ARE ACQUAINTED WITH?>> IF INFLATION HAD NOT BEEN GROWING AT THE RATE THAT IT WAS, I THINK FOLKS WOULD NOT FEEL AS SENSITIVE TO RESUMING THEIR PAYMENTS.

LET'S SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, SOMEBODY'S PAYMENT IS $1000 A MONTH FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS AND THEY WERE NOT USING THAT $1000.

IN A PERFECT WORLD, THEY WERE TAKING THAT MONEY AND PUTTING IT INTO A SAVINGS ACCOUNT AND MAYBE EVEN INVESTING IT OR CONTINUING TO MAKE LOAN PAYMENTS.

WHAT I HAVE LEARNED IS THAT EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW IT IS GOOD FOR US AND THE THINGS THAT WE SHOULD BE DOING FROM A PERSONAL- FINANCE PERSPECTIVE, SOMETIMES WE ACT OUTSIDE OF OUR BEST INTERESTS, BUT SOMETIMES THINGS OUTSIDE OF OUR CONTROL IMPACT WHAT WE ARE ABLE TO DO WITH HER MONEY.

WE ARE SEEING THAT HAPPEN WITH INFLATION.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FEELING THE PINCH AND HAVING TO SPEND MORE IN AREAS THEY DID NOT PREDICT OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS LIKE FOOD, ESPECIALLY.

THAT IS WHERE PEOPLE'S MONEY IS GOING.

TO TAKE AWAY FROM WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PUT THEIR MONEY, IT FEELS LIKE EVERYBODY'S FEELING THIS.>> THIS WAS ONE OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S KEY CAMPAIGN PROMISES.

HE WAS NOT THE ONLY ONE.

HE PUT FORTH THIS PROPOSAL.

THE SUPREME COURT BLOCKED THE DEAL.

OUR PEOPLE ANXIOUS OR ANGRY, AND IF THEY ARE ANGRY, WHO ARE THEY ANGRY AT?>> PEOPLE ARE UPSET WITH THE SUPREME COURT MOST CERTAINLY.

PEOPLE ARE UPSET IN GENERAL THAT THE EXPECTATIONS FOR THEIR LIVES FOR MISMANAGED.

I AM A MILLENIAL AND I GREW UP IN THE 1990s WHEN THE ECONOMY FELT STRONG.

WE HAD A DIFFERENT ATTITUDE ABOUT HOW WE CAN SUIT.

WE HAD THE IDEA THAT HOME PRICES WILL RISE, INCOMES WILL RISE.

YOU WILL GO TO COLLEGE AND YOU WILL BE BETTER OFF THAN YOUR PARENTS.

THAT WAS TOLD TO US.

FOR A LOT OF MY CLIENTS AND PEOPLE THAT I WORK WITH AND SPEAK TO, THEY INTERNALIZED THAT BELIEF.

THEY FELT THE PRESSURE TO TAKE OUT LOANS TO GO TO SCHOOL BECAUSE WE WERE TOLD IT WAS THE ONLY WAY TO GET AHEAD AND THE ONLY WAY TO BE BETTER OFF.

AND TO ARRIVE HERE WHERE TUITION INFLATION UTTERLY OUT OF CONTROL, WE JUST HAVE NOT INCREASED.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLACES WE CAN PLACE ANGER, AND THAT IS WHAT I'M SEEING.>> THE PARTISAN ASPECT OF THIS, THE FACT IS SEVERAL REPUBLICAN-LED STATES AND CONSERVATIVE GROUPS ARE THE ONES WHO FILED LEGAL CHALLENGES AGAINST LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAM.

IT'S NOT TO SAY THAT THEY'RE NOT CRITICS IN OTHER SECTORS, BUT THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ADVANCE THE OPPOSITION AND TOOK LEGAL ACTION.

I'M WONDERING IF THE PARTISAN ASPECT IS VISIBLE?>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE ARE IN A TIME WHERE AMERICA IS SO DIVIDED.

IT IS TRULY HEARTBREAKING TO SEE.

AND I KNOW I AM HERE SPEAKING AS A MEDIA ON THE MEDIA, THAT WE ARE LIVING IN A TIME WHERE GETTING PEOPLE UPSET IS PROFITABLE, SO BEING ABLE TO SPIN THIS STORY, MAKING OVERLY POLITICAL AND HIGHLIGHTING THE DIVISION, A GETS PEOPLE UPSET.

IT GETS PEOPLE ENGAGED, WHICH MEANS CLICKING AND READING, AND I THINK WE CANNOT DISCOUNT THAT POWER OF THE ECONOMY, THE OUTRAGE, AND ALL THESE ISSUES THAT SHOULD BE HUMAN ISSUES.

WHEN IT COMES TO BURDENING YOUNG PEOPLE WITH DEBT, IT IS BAD FOR THE ECONOMY.

MY PEERS ARE DECIDING NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN.

THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO BUY HOMES.

A LARGE SHARE OF INCOME IS GOING TO STUDENT LOANS, AND AT THE END OF THE DAY, THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY.

AND TAKING THAT TO ANOTHER LAYER, WHEN EDUCATION IS NOT ACCESSIBLE AND AFFORDABLE, PUTS AMERICA AT A DISADVANTAGE.

IF WE CANNOT EDUCATE OUR CITIZENS, HOW WILL WE BE COMPETITIVE?

>> DO YOU THINK THE OPPOSITION TO THIS IS POLITICAL OR PARTISAN, AS IN THIS ADVANTAGE IS ONE PARTY OVER THE OTHER, OR IS IT IDEOLOGICAL BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE HEARING FROM SOME PEOPLE IS THEY FEEL LIKE -- SOME PEOPLE SAY IT IS WRONG.

PEOPLE TOOK OUT THESE LOANS, THEY KNEW WHAT THE TERMS WERE.

IF THEY DID NOT WANT TO PAY THE MONEY BACK, THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN OUT THE LOAN.

>> I THINK IT IS BOTH.

SOME PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS AS AN ENTIRELY POLITICAL ISSUE.

IT IS AN ISSUE OF THESE PEOPLE ARE GETTING SOMETHING THEY DO NOT DESERVE.

AND I THINK OTHER PEOPLE LOOK AT IT FROM A MORE PURITANICAL PERSPECTIVE ANYMORE PERSPECTIVE THAT IF YOU BORROWED MONEY, YOU OUGHT TO PAY IT BACK.

AND WHY MOSTLY BELIEF THAT IS THE CASE, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE REALITIES.

STUDENTS WERE 18 YEARS OLD WHEN THEY WERE OFFERED THESE LOANS.

THE RATE OF INFLATION WHEN IT COMES TO TUITION IS ASTRONOMICAL.

THERE ARE FEW THINGS THAT HAVE RISEN IN PRICE THE WAY THAT TUITION HAS.

AND THAT IS THE LARGER QUESTION WE HAVE TO ASK.

HAS EDUCATION IMPROVED BY 300%?

OR HAVE SALARIES IMPROVED BY THAT MUCH?

SO IT IS A BIG BALL OF WAX.

I DEFINITELY THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE -- A LOT OF PEOPLE SEE IT AS A POLITICAL ISSUE AND A LOT OF PEOPLE SEE IT AS A MORAL ISSUE.>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE THINGS THAT YOU RAISE AND ISOLATE THEM.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

THEY'VE ANNOUNCED A PLAN TO FORGIVE $39 BILLION FOR ABOUT 800,000 BORROWERS.

IT IS NOT AS EXPENSIVE AS HIS INITIAL PROPOSAL, BUT IT DOES HELP PEOPLE.

800,000 PEOPLE IS NOT LIKE ZERO.

WHO IS COVERED UNDER THIS, AND ARE PEOPLE WHERE THIS IS A POSSIBILITY?>> FOR THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING BLANKET FORGIVENESS, IT WILL BE ABOUT 804,000.

THIS IS A CORRECTION IN ADMINISTRATIVE ERRORS AND BUREAUCRATIC ERRORS.

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE QUALIFIED, YOU HAVE TO HAVE MADE 20 YEARS OF PAYMENTS, WHICH IS A LOT.

IF YOU ARE NOWHERE NEAR THERE, YOU'RE NOT IN THIS 804,000.

THERE ARE STATISTICS FLOATING AROUND FOR MANY YEARS AND IT SAID THAT 98% OR SO OF THOSE WHO APPLIED FOR LOAN FORGIVENESS HAVE BEEN DENIED.

SO ONLY 2% OF PEOPLE OVER THE YEARS WHO HAVE APPLIED FOR FORGIVENESS HAVE BEEN GRANTED FORGIVENESS.

THIS IS A BIG REASON IS BECAUSE OF ADMINISTRATIVE AND BUREAUCRATIC ISSUES.

THE LENDERS, THEY ARE POOR RECORD-KEEPING OR BORROWERS WERE PUT IN THIS GOTCHA SITUATION WHERE THEY SHOULD'VE BEEN FOLLOWING THESE ADMINISTRATIVE TASKS.

AND IF YOU HAVE PROOF OF THAT, THEN YOUR LOAN WILL BE FORGIVEN.

THIS IS FRANKLY A LONG TIME COMING FOR THESE PEOPLE.

PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO BE NOTIFIED BY EMAIL.

I HAVE SPENT SOME TIME LOOKING ON REDDIT AND READING PEOPLE'S RESPONSES.

THEY ARE SAYING, I AM ONE OF THE 800,000.

THIS IS A LIFE-CHANGING AMOUNT OF MONEY.

IT HAS BEEN HEARTWARMING FOR ME TO SEE PEOPLE HAVING AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON STUDENT LOANS.

THEY ARE FEELING JOY AND GRATITUDE.

I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE THAT MOMENT TO APPRECIATE THAT THIS IS FINALLY HAPPENING.>> IS THERE AN ARGUMENT THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SHOULD'VE TAKEN THIS APPROACH TO BEGIN WITH INSTEAD OF SWINGING AT THE FENCE FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS DESTINED TO BE THAT CONTROVERSIAL?>> I'M TRYING TO THINK.

I'M NOT NECESSARILY THE POLITICAL EXPERT, SO I WOULD NOT KNOW IN TERMS OF WHAT THE RIGHT PLAY WAS AND HOW THOSE CHIPS WOULD LAND.

I THINK PEOPLE'S EXPECTATIONS WERE MISMANAGED.

AND THIS PROGRAM HAS BEEN -- IT WAS INTRODUCED EARLIER THIS YEAR AND NOW IS TAKING CENTER STAGE BECAUSE STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS WAS STRUCK DOWN BY THE SUPREME COURT.

AND THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO HIGHLIGHT THIS THING THAT WAS ALREADY BEING PUSHED.>> TO HAVE ADVICE FOR PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT QUALIFY FOR THIS PLAN, AND ESPECIALLY FOR PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW YOU AND WHO FEEL THE DESPAIR YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?>> MY PRACTICAL'S PERSPECTIVE, MAKE SURE YOU GATHER ALL OF YOUR INFORMATION AND YOU KNOW WHO YOUR STUDENT LOAN SERVICER IS.

NAVIA AND WAS A BIG PLAYER AND ALL THOSE PEOPLE, THEY ARE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO YOUR LOAN SERVICER IS.

MAKE SURE THEY HAVE YOUR EMAIL AND YOUR PHONE NUMBER.

YOU CAN FIND YOUR ACCOUNT AND YOU CAN GO TO YOUR LOAN SERVICES SECTION AND SEE WHO YOUR SERVICER IS.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE OTHER THING YOU CAN DO, PRACTICE PAYING YOUR PAYMENT NOW.

START TAKING WHAT YOU EXPECT YOUR PAYMENT TO BE AND PUT IT INTO A SAVINGS ACCOUNT AND DO IT OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS AND LIVE WITH THAT AND SEE HOW YOUR FINANCES ARE IMPACTED.

AND IF YOU FEEL THAT STRUGGLE AND YOU CANNOT MAKE ENDS MEET, THAT IS A SIGN THAT YOU NEED TO REACH OUT AND SEE WHAT PLANS ARE AVAILABLE, IN TERMS OF A REPAYMENT PLAN.

I HAVE SOME IMPRACTICAL ADVICE.

>> WHAT IS THAT?

PLAY POWERBALL?

THAT'S NOT A GOOD PLAN.>> MY IMPRACTICAL ADVICE IS WE ARE LIVING IN AN UNCERTAIN TIME.

THERE IS SO MUCH WE CANNOT PREDICT AND THERE'S A LOT OUTSIDE OF OUR CONTROL.

WHEN YOU'RE FEELING OVERWHELMED BY FINANCES, AND THIS WILL SOUND SILLY, BUT TAKE A DEEP BREATH, AND FIND WAYS THAT YOU FEEL SAFE.

FIND THE WAY THAT YOU FEEL SECURE.

WE ARE CHRONICALLY STRESSED LIKE THAT, WHEN YOU MAKE FINANCIAL DECISIONS, BIG OR SMALL, IN THAT STATE, YOU MAKE THEM FROM A PLACE OF STRESS AND ANXIETY AND NOT FROM A PLACE OF COGNITION.

WHEN THAT HAPPENS, YOU MAKE BAD FINANCIAL DECISIONS, AND IT'S A VICIOUS CYCLE.>> WHY DO YOU CALL THE IMPRACTICAL ADVICE?

ONE POINT YOU HAVE BEEN MAKING IS THAT YOUR EMOTIONS TO AFFECT YOUR FINANCIAL DECISIONS.>> MY WHOLE CAREER I'VE BEEN WORKING IN FINANCIAL SERVICES.

MY FIRST JOB WAS A DEBT COLLECTOR FOR A BANK.

I UNDERSTAND THE KIND OF OBJECTIONS PEOPLE WILL HAVE WHEN IT COMES TO MY IDEAS AND MY ADVICE WITH MONEY.

I WOULD SAY UNTIL KIND OF RECENTLY, PEOPLE DID NOT WANT TO ADMIT OR DID NOT SEE THE LINK BETWEEN OUR EMOTIONS AND OUR FINANCIAL SITUATION AND THAT THEY IMPACT ONE ANOTHER.

ESPECIALLY OTHER PERSONAL FINANCE EXPERTS.

IT IS EASY TO SELL THE IDEA THAT IF YOU DO THESE THINGS AND FOLLOW THESE STEPS, YOU WILL BE OKAY.

WHAT I HAVE HAD TO CONFRONT WITH MY OWN PERSONAL FINANCE JOURNEY AND SEEING MY PEERS AND MY FRIENDS AND MY COMMUNITIES STRUGGLE WITH FINANCES IS THAT OFTENTIMES OUR EMOTIONS GET IN THE WAY.

WHEN PEOPLE LOOK LIKE THEY ARE ACTING OUTSIDE OF THEIR BEST INTERESTS, OFTENTIMES THERE IS TRAUMA.

THERE IS STRESS AND ANXIETY THAT HAS BEEN CHRONIC AND IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED SO THAT IN THE MOMENTS WE HAVE OUR AGENCY, WE ARE DOING THE BEST WE CAN WITH THAT LITTLE WINDOW.

>> THE CONSUMER FINANCIAL PROTECTION BUREAU ESTIMATES ONE IN FIVE BORROWERS WILL STRUGGLE TO MAKE PAYMENTS ONCE THIS PAUSE ENDS.

WHAT DOES IT SAY TO YOU ABOUT THE COST OF COLLEGE EDUCATION OR HOW WE VIEW COLLEGE EDUCATION THAT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE IN THAT SITUATION?

DOES IT SAY SOMETHING WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT MORE BROADLY?>> ABSOLUTELY.

AMERICA IS WONDERFUL FOR A LOT OF REASONS.

I AM GRATEFUL THAT I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BUILD A LIFE IN THIS COUNTRY.

ONE OF THE BIG DOWNSIDES IS THAT EVERYONE IS ALWAYS TRYING TO MAKE A >> OFF OF EVERYONE.

IT PERMEATES OUR CULTURE.

OUR CULTURE SATURATED IN THAT IDEA.

AND WE SEE WITH STUDENT LOANS.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO BE PROFITING OFF OF CITIZENS IN THAT WAY.

IF WE HELP THEM, IF WE EDUCATE THEM, WE ARM THEM WITH SKILLS, WITH KNOWLEDGE, WITH TRAITS, SO THEY CAN GO TO THE MARKETPLACE, ACTUALLY ADD VALUE, CREATE COMPANIES, THE HEALTHY, EFFECTIVE WORKERS, THAT WILL BE BETTER FOR THE ECONOMY OVERALL.

I THINK THE WAY WE ARE DOING THINGS NOW IS INCREDIBLY SHORTSIGHTED.

IS HOW CAN WE MAKE A PROFIT OFF OF ANYONE AT ANY AGE, AND WE ARE THINKING ABOUT INVESTING IN CITIZENS IN THE LONG RUN.>> THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH