>> Sreenivasan: THE RIO GRANDE

RIVER IS BOTH A BORDER, AND AN

IMPORTANT SOURCE OF WATER FOR

THE UNITED STATES AND MEXICO.

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DEPEND ON THE

RIVER FOR DRINKING WATER AND

AGRICULTURE.

AS THE POPULATION IN THE REGION

GROWS, AND CLIMATE CHANGE BRINGS

LONGER-LASTING DROUGHTS, THERE

ARE SOME PREDICTIONS OF A

REGIONAL WATER SHORTAGE.

IN A NINE-PART SERIES CALLED

"SHALLOW WATERS" "QUARTZ" AND

THE "TEXAS OBSERVER"

INVESTIGATED THE POTENTIAL WATER

SCARCITY ON BOTH SIDES OF THE

BORDER.

RECENTLY I SPOKE WITH ZOE

SCHLANGER, AN ENVIRONMENTAL

REPORTER AT "QUARTZ," ABOUT THE

CHALLENGES FACING THE RIO

GRANDE.

ZOE SCHLANGER, THANKS FOR

JOINING US.

YOU TAKE A LONG LOOK OVER A

SERIES OF STORIES ABOUT WHAT'S

HAPPENING ON THE BORDER.

OUR BORDER WITH MEXICO IS ONE

THAT IS PREDOMINANTLY A RIVER

FOR MOST OF IT AND THE RIVER

DOESN'T ACTUALLY CARE WHO'S ON

WHICH SIDE, AND A RIVER'S A

NATURAL BODY THAT WILL ADJUST

WITH FLOODPLAINS AND SO FORTH.

SO, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE

CONSEQUENCES OF SAYING WE WANT

TO PUT UP A WALL OR AT LEAST

FIRM THAT WALL UP?

WHAT HAPPENS ECOLOGICALLY ON

BOTH SIDES OF THAT WALL?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK MOST AMERICANS NOT IN

THE REGION DON'T QUITE REALIZE

THAT WHERE THE WALL WILL BE

PLACED IS ALONG A RIVER THAT

BOTH SIDES DEPEND ON.

SIX MILLION PEOPLE DRINK FROM

IT.

BOTH IN THE U.S. AND MEXICO.

AND IF YOU PUT A WALL UP AGAINST

THE RIVER OR EVEN SOMETIMES A

MILE AWAY YOU HAVE A FLUCTUATING

RIVER BODY, EXACTLY AS YOU SAID,

AND WE'VE ALREADY SEEN A FEW

YEARS BACK IN 2014, AND THE

SECTION OF A BORDER WALL ALREADY

PUT UP-- NOGALES, SONORA AND

NOGALES, ARIZONA THAT BORDER

AREA, IT CAUSED A FLOOD BECAUSE

WALLS ACT LIKE DAMS.

AND SO, WHEN THE RIVER SWELLS

AND THERE'S MASSIVE RAINFALL

DURING A MONSOON SEASON THE

DEBRIS JUST PILES UP AND WATER

CAN'’T PASS.

AND SO, IN THAT INSTANCE TWO

PEOPLE DIED IN THOSE

FLOODWATERS.

SO, IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE

TO THINK ABOUT.

>> Sreenivasan: THESE ARE HUGE

FLOODPLAINS ON EITHER SIDE WHERE

PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY DEPENDENT ON

THIS TO GROW CROPS, TO DRINK

WATER AS YOU SAID.

SO, IS THERE COOPERATION BETWEEN

THE TWO COUNTRIES TO KIND OF

SAY, "OKAY, THERE'S THE POLITICS

OF IT, BUT THERE'S ALSO JUST THE

FACT THAT WE NEED THIS WATER ON

BOTH SIDES TO SURVIVE?"

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THERE'S KIND OF A SECOND SET OF

POLITICS HAPPENING ALONG THE

BORDER AS IT PERTAINS

SPECIFICALLY TO WATER THAT MOST

PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ABOUT, BUT THE

STATE DEPARTMENT HAS AN EMPLOYEE

WHO NEGOTIATES DIRECTLY WITH

MEXICO AND THEY MEET AND THEY

TALK ALL THE TIME.

I'VE MET BOTH THE MEXICAN

COMMISSIONER AND THE U.S.

COMMISSIONER AND SEEN THEM EAT

LUNCH TOGETHER.

IT'S A VERY COLLEGIAL

RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE IT HAS TO

BE.

BECAUSE WE RELY ON MEXICO AND

THE U.S. FOR DRINKING WATER IN

THAT AREA AND IN MEXICO THEY

RELY ON US FOR A DIFFERENT

PORTION OF THE RIVER FOR

DRINKING WATER.

SO THEY DON'T REALLY HAVE AN

OPTION NOT TO TALK TO EACH OTHER

AND MAINTAIN A FRIENDLY

ENVIRONMENT DESPITE CHANGES IN

ADMINISTRATION OR ANYTHING ELSE

GOING ON.

>> Sreenivasan: LET'S TALK IN A

LONGER TIME SCALE, WHAT'S

HAPPENING TO THE RIVER AND

WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THE SORT OF

WATER TABLE THAT'S UNDERNEATH

IT?

IS THERE GREATER STRESS ON IT

NOW THAN THERE WAS 30, 40 YEARS

AGO?

>> YEAH, THERE REALLY IS.

IT HAPPENS TO BE ONE OF THE

FASTEST GROWING REGIONS IN THE

U.S. AND THE U.S. SIDE.

AND THE POPULATION IS GOING UP

EVEN FASTER ON THE MEXICAN SIDE.

YOU HAVE A REGION THAT'S SET TO

DOUBLE IN POPULATION BY 2060 AND

A RIVER THAT THE FEDERAL

GOVERNMENT ACKNOWLEDGES WILL NOT

BE ABLE TO MEET DEMAND BY THAT

SAME YEAR, BY 2060.

WE'RE LOOKING AT WAY LESS

SNOWFALL, WHERE THE RIVER IS FED

FROM SNOWFALL IN THE COLORADO

MOUNTAINS AND THE MONSOON RAINS

ARE CHANGING ON THE MEXICAN

SIDE.

SO BASICALLY YOU HAVE INCREASED

POPULATION, MORE PEOPLE NEEDING

TO DRINK WATER AND WAY

DIMINISHED WATER RESOURCES.

>> Sreenivasan: AND YOU HAVE A

HUGE CHUNK OF THIS THAT ACTUALLY

GOES THROUGH A DESERT.

>> THERE ARE PARTS OF THE RIVER

THAT COMPLETELY DRY OUT IN THE

DRY SEASON AND YOU HAVE DROUGHTS

THAT ARE INCREASING.

AND SCIENTISTS SAY THIS IS DUE

TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND DUE TO

MORE ARIDITY AND LESS RAINFALL.

SO, WITH DROUGHTS GOING UP AND

POPULATION INCREASING IT'S A

PRETTY TOUGH SPOT.

>> Sreenivasan: BUT YOU HAVE

ALSO A STORY ON EL PASO WHICH I

DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT WAS ACTUALLY

RELATIVELY SPEAKING A LEADER ON

TRYING TO CONSERVE THE AMOUNT OF

WATER AND THEY'VE BEEN DOING

THIS FOR DECADES.

>> YEAH.

EL PASO AN INCREDIBLE CASE STUDY

IN WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO REALLY

ADDRESS THE FACT THAT YOU LIVE

IN A DESERT AT A TIME OF

INCREASING ARIDITY, THEIR-- ED

ARCHULETA, THEIR WATER

COMMISSIONER DECIDED ABOUT 30

YEARS AGO TO START DRASTICALLY

CUTTING WATER PER PERSON AND

EDUCATING CHILDREN.

HE WOULD GO INTO THE SCHOOLS AND

TELL THEM ABOUT HOW THEY REALLY

LIVE IN A DESERT.

THEY HAVE TO ACT LIKE DESERT

ANIMALS.

WHEN THERE'S LESS WATER, YOU USE

LESS WATER.

AND SO NOW THEY'RE AT THIS POINT

WHERE THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING

REALLY GROUNDBREAKING FOR THE

U.S. AND FOR THE WHOLE WORLD,

REALLY, WHERE THEY'RE PLANNING

TO TREAT WASTEWATER.

THEY'RE ACKNOWLEDGING THEIR

RIVER THAT THEY DEPEND ON AND

THAT MEXICO DEPENDS ON TOO, IS

GOING TO BE GONE SOON.

AND SO NOW THEY'RE GOING TO

START TREATING WASTEWATER AND

PUTTING IT THROUGH THE PIPES

BACK TO THEIR POPULATION.

AND BECAUSE EL PASO PEOPLE HAVE

BEEN TAUGHT FOR DECADES NOW THAT

THEY LIVE IN A DRY PLACE AND

NEED TO RESPECT THAT, THEY'RE

OPEN TO THIS IN A WAY THAT I

THINK MANY OTHER CITIES IN THE

U.S. WOULDN'T FATHOM THE IDEA OF

DRINKING THEIR OWN WASTE WATER,

THIS KIND OF CLOSED LOOP WATER

CYCLE.

>> Sreenivasan: HOW DID THEY

FIGURE OUT A WAY TO THINK LONG

TERM?

BECAUSE OFTENTIMES, ESPECIALLY

POLITICIANS CAN'T SEE PAST THE

NEXT TWO YEARS ELECTION CYCLE OR

RE-ELECTION CYCLE.

>> ED ARCHULETA HAD SO MUCH TO

DO WITH THIS.

HE OFFERED SUBSIDIES TO PEOPLE

WHO WOULD RIP UP THEIR LAWNS.

IN THE 1980s IN EL PASO, LAWNS

WERE THE THING.

EVERYONE HAD REALLY LAVISH

GARDENS, THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND HE CUT THAT OUT.

HE SAID, "I'LL PAY YOU A DOLLAR

PER CUBIC FOOT OF LAWN THAT YOU

RIP OUT AND HELP YOU PUT IN MORE

DESERT PLANTS OR ROCKS," OR

THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND SO NOW YOU GO TO EL PASO YOU

DON'’T SEE THOSE LAWNS ANYMORE.

IT'S JUST BEEN THIS KIND OF SLOW

REEDUCATING PEOPLE ON WHAT THEY

NEED TO DO TO MAKE THAT CITY

SURVIVE.

>> Sreenivasan: AND THAT'S

BECOME A MODEL FOR OTHER DRY

CITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY AND

POSSIBLY AROUND THE WORLD AS

WELL.

THIS WAS A SERIES IN CONJUNCTION

WITH THE "TEXAS OBSERVER."

AS YOU WENT THROUGH THIS, WHAT

WAS THE "AHA" MOMENT FOR YOU IN

THE REPORTING?

>> YES, SO NAVEENA SADASIVAM AND

I AT THE "TEXAS OBSERVER" HAD

BEEN TALKING TO POLITICIANS AND

FARMERS AND SO MANY DIFFERENT

PEOPLE WHO HAD STAKES IN THIS

RIVER.

AND I THINK AS A REPORTER BASED

IN NEW YORK, IT WAS INCREDIBLE

FOR ME TO REALIZE HOW BORDER

POLITICS ON THE GROUND ARE SO

DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE HEAR IN

THE NEWS WHEN BOTH SIDES KNOW

THAT THEY NEED EACH OTHER FOR

THIS RESOURCE.

THEY CAN'T-- NO ONE CAN LIVE

WITHOUT WATER.

NO ONE CAN FARM WITHOUT WATER.

THERE'S SO MUCH MORE

COLLABORATION THAN YOU'D THINK

OF.

SO REALLY RIGHT NOW IT SOUNDS

LIKE EVERYONE'S KIND OF HOLDING

AND WAITING TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS

ON THE NATIONAL LEVEL WITH THE

TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AS TO WHAT

THAT WILL-- HOW THAT WILL AFFECT

THINGS ON THE GROUND FOR THEM.

BUT ON THE WHOLE, THERE'S SO

MUCH MORE COLLABORATION THAN

PEOPLE THINK ABOUT.

I THINK WHAT REALLY HIT HOME

WITH THAT FOR ME IS THE FACT

THAT IN NOGALES, ARIZONA THERE'S

A PIPE THAT GOES RIGHT THROUGH

THE BORDER WALL TO NOGALES,

SONORA IN MEXICO TO FEED A HOTEL

AND SOME OTHER BUSINESSES WATER.

SO, THAT'S BEEN THERE SINCE

WHEN, I MEAN, THE WATER

COMMISSIONER THERE SAID THE

BORDER BACK THEN WAS LIKE,

BARELY A FENCE.

MAYBE IT WASN'T EVEN THERE AT

ALL WHEN THEY STARTED THIS

COLLABORATION, THIS INFORMAL

WATER SHARING PRACTICE.

AND THEY STILL DO IT.

THERE'S STILL-- WE WENT DOWN AND

SAW IT AND THERE'S JUST A PIPE

STRAIGHT THROUGH THE WALL

CARRYING WATER.

>> Sreenivasan: ALL RIGHT.

THE SERIES IS CALLED "SHALLOW

WATERS," YOU CAN FIND IT ONLINE.

IT'S A JOINT REPORTING PROJECT

BETWEEN "QUARTZ" AND THE "TEXAS

OBSERVER."

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US,

ZOE SCHLANGER.

>> THANK YOU.