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An evangelical Christian for Peace

In his interview with the JOURNAL, John Hagee stated:

"We want you to recognize that Iran is a clear and present danger to the United States of America and Israel. And... that it's time for our country to consider a military preemptive strike against Iran if they will not yield to diplomacy."

But there are others in the evangelical Christian community with a different faith-based take on war in the Middle East. In July, 34 evangelical Christian leaders wrote a letter to President Bush thanking him for "efforts to reinvigorate the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations to achieve lasting peace in the region."

We invited Ronald Sider, president of Evangelicals for Social Action and one of the signers of that letter, to share his thoughts with The Moyers Blog. As always we welcome your comments below.

--------------------------

The religious right - whether Pat Robertson, James Dobson or Rev. Hagee of Christians United for Israel - simply do not represent the evangelical center.

Earlier this year, James Dobson and friends sent an open letter to the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) – the largest evangelical network in the U.S. representing 30 million evangelicals – urging them to discipline or fire their VP for Public Policy. Why? Because Rich Cizik was speaking out on global warming. Dobson insisted the NAE should focus on what Dobson called the great moral issues of our time – i.e., the sanctity of human life, the integrity of marriage and sexual abstinence outside marriage (Hagee would have added uncritical support for Israel).

What Dobson failed to understand is that the center of the evangelical world has changed dramatically. In a historic action in October 2004, the NAE's board of directors unanimously approved "For the Health of the Nation: An Evangelical Call to Civic Responsibility (pdf)" as the official framework for all their political work. "The Bible makes it clear that God cares a great deal about the well-being of marriage, the family, the sanctity of human life, justice for the poor, care for creation, peace, freedom, and racial justice," this document explicitly states. And it goes on to conclude that "faithful evangelical civic engagement must champion a biblically balanced agenda." This is an explicit rejection of the notion that the only "moral issues" evangelicals care about are abortion and marriage. And the second part of the NAE document devotes major sections not just to the sanctity of human life and marriage but also to economic justice, peacekeeping, religious freedom, human rights, and creation care.

Meeting on March 8-9, soon after they received the Dobson letter, the president and board of the NAE strongly supported Richard Cizik and pointedly and unanimously reaffirmed their commitment to the broader pro-life and pro-poor, pro-family and pro-creation care agenda developed in their historic declaration, "For the Health of the Nation."

In July, 34 prominent centrist evangelical leaders sent a letter to President Bush affirming his support for a two-state solution that is fair for both Israelis and Palestinians and urging the President to work much harder on this agenda. The letter also corrected the widespread view that all or most evangelicals are uncritically, one-sidedly pro-Israel. All evangelicals want a secure, safe, democratic Israel. But large numbers of evangelicals also want a just two-state solution and oppose a pre-emptive military strike on Iran.

Centrist evangelicals reject the key arguments of Christian Zionists.

Is there a biblical basis for supporting Israelis more than the Palestinians? Some point to God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:3: "I will bless those who bless you." Does that text mean that we ought to uncritically support the modern state of Israel? Hardly. The biblical prophets repeatedly taught that God demands justice of all people, starting with his chosen people. When the Israelis acted unjustly, God punished them. The best way Christians today can bless the descendants of the ancient Israelites is to urge them to practice the universal justice that their prophets proclaimed to the world. Today that means a fair, two-state solution.

Others will argue from a dispensationalist, pre-millennialist theology that God has established the modern state of Israel as a necessary part of the end-time scenario, preparing for Christ's second coming in the very near future (see Hal Lindsey's LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH and the Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins' LEFT BEHIND novels.) But this idea poses huge problems. For one thing, Christians for centuries have been pressing the imagery of Daniel and Revelation to find detailed predictions about the end of the world – all of which have proved foolish and wrong!

To suggest that we know that Christ will return in the next few decades is flatly unbiblical. Jesus even said he did not know the time of his second coming (Matthew 24:36) – beware of people who claim to know more than Jesus!

I pray for the peace of Jerusalem. I pray for peace and justice for all people in Israel/Palestine. I pray that American politicians exercise vigorous leadership to urge all parties concerned to make the necessary compromises to bring about a just, two-state solution.


Ronald J. Sider
President
Evangelicals for Social Action


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Comments

Dear Brothers,
I studied your web site. You have arranged very nice teachings for all the nations, in the long run of your service for the nations of the all the world. I am from Islamic Republic of Pakistan where it is difficult to have Radio and TV channel for preaching purposes. As the religious extremists and fanatics are very active they would not allow us to do that here; the Satan has real strong hold over everything. We humbly request you to expand your outreach your program in Urdu and Punjabi and other Pakistani languages so that Urdu and Punjabi and other Pakistan languages speaking may listen your message particularly in Pakistan and generally in the world. Urdu and Punjabi are the languages spoken and understood by more than one sixth of the total population of the world. Urdu is spoken in Pakistan, India, Nepal, and Afghanistan and also in Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran and others. I would ask you to pray and share it among the brethrens there. I would offer my services for being translator, recorder and distribution/sales. I pray that God may bless you to take a good decision. May His perfect will be done! Grace and Peace be with you, all brethrens.
Yours brother in Christ
Nadeem, Pakistan

After James Dobson (Focus on the Family) denounced Rich Cizik of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) because he discussed global warming, the NAE responded with a framework called “For the Health of the Nation: An Evangelical Call to Civic Responsibility.”

In this document, the NAE claims that "The Bible makes it clear that God cares a great deal about the well-being of marriage, the family, the sanctity of human life, justice for the poor, care for creation, peace, freedom, and racial justice," this document explicitly states.”

That conclusion is not supported by even a casual reading of the Bible. The document is a collection of misogynous, vengeful, spiteful, cruel and murderous proclamations that are supposedly the word of god.

If we are to look to the Bible for guidance, we cannot pick and choose only those sections we like. Why would the passages we embrace be any more legitimate than those we reject? Aren’t all supposed to be god’s word?

So let’s take a quick look at what God has to say. For brevity, let’s focus only on the “well-being of marriage” that the NAE claims is supported by the Bible. In a nutshell, the Bible is clear in stating that man is to be the master of and rule over women; that women are nothing but property; that women are unclean; and that polygamy, incest, and rape are fully encouraged. While those ideas are abhorrent, that is exactly what the Bible promotes. Here are the summaries from just a few relevant passages:

Genesis 3:16
Man rules over women; forget any form of equality. “…your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Exodus 20-21
The Ten Commandments make it clear that women have no more value than an ax or a donkey. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant (male slave), nor his maidservant (female slave), nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's."

Exodus 21:7
Let’s get some extra income: a father could simply sell his daughter. And of course a female slave is worse off than a male slave; a male slave is automatically freed after 6 years; the woman is never freed. "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.”

Ecclesiastes 25:18; Leviticus 15:19-30; Leviticus 20:18; Ezekiel 18:5
All of these passages make clear how terribly unclean menstruating women are; so unclean that such women are to be banned from society for 8 days from the onset of her period; a man who even comes close to a menstruating woman himself becomes unclean.

Genesis 19:8
Rape and incest are just fine according to the Bible. At a house party, Lot simply offered up his daughters to his guests: “I have two daughters which have not known man; let me I pray you, bring them unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes.”

Genesis 19:30
But Lot did not stop with allowing others to rape his daughters; he himself did, getting each pregnant. “Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.” “Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.”

None of this is exactly pro-marriage. According to the Bible, women are to be dominated by men, are unclean, and can be sold as property. In the Bible, supposedly so family friendly, women may be raped, and incest is perfectly fine.

In the Bible, rape is a crime; but not one against the woman. No, instead, rape is a crime against the woman’s father because of the resulting loss of property value.

This is the Bible that the Evangelicals turn to as a source of moral guidance on civic responsibilities.

“All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth“ ( Nietzsche ).

Would not the developmental course of Mankind follow the same patterned matrix characteristics as that of a progenies relationship to its progenitor and primogenitor? Therefore like the myth of Santa Claus, that being a temporal belief dispelled by the natural course of intellectual development. Then too, couldn’t man’s belief in an overseeing governance of justice and provider of hope and direction, also be a myth provided by convention as man’s moral compass and wellspring of fellowship and goodwill?

Was God around for the caveman, or did he conveniently appear as mankind’s intellectual awareness of his own mortality also came into being? Could not the invention of an all powerful myth, be a manifestation of man’s desire for something solid to hold onto against an unrelenting oscillating tide of universal change, and isn’t this why he appeared differently, but with the same message, simultaneously in differing cultures.

Then too, couldn’t the feared “Armageddon” represent an intellectual awakening and the end of a people’s need for religious leaders like CUFI founder John Hagee, who themselves prosper off the fears and misery of the innocent.

Come on people get real, God is in the process and not sitting on high orchestrating and adjudicating. Sooner or later your going to have to realize that; God, Santa Claus, The Lone Ranger and Nietzsche’s Superman are one in the same.

“I had therefore to remove knowledge, in order to make room for belief” (Kant).

I got a real problem with Scott Ritter’s remark seen on the July 23 2002, video link posted by D Waters… Ritter opens with a statistic which talks of half a half million dead then says, …if these were half a million blacks no one would say anything, but since they were white Kosovars…”

I propose to prosecute abortion and abortionists under the capital provisions of Islamic law, thus anticipating an amount of executions commensurate with the number of abortions. The deaths of black children are gonna be prosecuted with the same vigor as with everyone else… I want to assure you D Waters of that.

In New Orleans in 2006 or so a white woman was shot dead by black cops… her car had been hijacked by an African gangster who was escaping a gun battle with another group of Africans… Thus standing on the freeway ramp speaking to her husband on a cell phone… the African cops in New Orleans turned up and shot her dead. One leader of the New Orleans African community said…the only reason that there was a fuss was because she was white…

Somali Tribesmen Poised to Strike White America

…already there are tens of thousands of foreign military personnel on US soil, ostensibly they are here to "observe" our training methods, however it does not take the sheer numbers that are here to "observe…" PP forum 06.16.07 .

Secret war has been waged against white people thus abortion has devastated white populations in Canada, The US, Europe and Australia immigrants whose allegiance is not to the host nation, but to the foreign culture from which they came, have been brought into those same abortion devastated countries to make up the numbers.

With no concept of the ways of organized labor, they work for a lot less money than the unionized workforce demands, thus destabilizing the labor market, then rely on the fiction that they are a poor oppressed minority, who are forced into doing tasks that are spurned by the wider and whiter community. When in fact all they are is scabs, white people do those jobs, they demand proper wages for their labor however.

Check the Canadian statistics, abortion has altered the demographics in that country to the extent that two hundred thousand Somali immigrants are now resident there. Then have another look at the internment camps that have been built right across the US. Then consider the spectacle of the Somali’s allying themselves with the resident African populations of North America, themselves unhappy and antisocial citizens, whose ancestors were granted refuge in North America in the eighteenth century.

Witness the testimony of the King of Dahomey who ruled much of the Congo basin, who assumed the throne of that nation at age eighteen in about 1820, and who died the same day as Queen Victoria in 1900. Making him one of the longest ruling monarchs in history. The only interview he ever granted was to Henry Morton Stanley in about 1870, he assured Stanley that every person over four years of age within the entire Congo basin, regularly ate human flesh. Social infractions of any kind, hooliganism or indeed casting ones eyes upon the King guaranteed a one way trip to the town butcher. The victims were auctioned in the marketplaces a piece at a time, thus a customer would purchase a leg for instance, or a hand or the liver, and would receive a token. Then when the whole body was sold, the victim would be dispatched and the tokens exchanged for his body parts.

It was the refugees from cannibalism that made up the bulk of African immigration into America. All a ship had to do was anchor anywhere in the Congo delta, and they would swarm aboard, a situation that continues to this day... When a fancy was to hit the block foreigners attended the auctions, for in an act of mercy the King had decreed that should a foreign purchaser outbid everyone else, and guarantee that the felon was definitely, under pain of immediate death going to be leaving the country permanently. Those who wanted to could go to the butchers market and bid.

Consider the spectacle of a couple of hundred battalions of Somali tribesmen rampaging across rural North America, while the African Americans rampage thru the cities, like they did in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. Killing and rounding up and interning the whites in the camps, a well planned military operation would be able to immobilize most of North America in a very short time.

Anybody who thinks that I am a racist should know that I am not, indeed many of my best girlfriends have been black, in matters of love a stiff prick is the best bridge between the races… That’s what I have found anyways.

Bill Moyer, please have Scott Ritter on your show.

Scott Ritter the former Marine Corps intelligence officer & UN Iraqi weapons inspector was warning us not to go to war with Iraq. He’s warning us not to go to war with Iran for a while now. He wrote several books, one "Target Iran: The Truth About the White House’s Plans for Regime Change”.

UN Inspector Scott Ritter: Fools would Bomb Iran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XQan1qo8T4&mode=related&search=

Amy Goodman interviews Scott Ritter-Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EawPGrVz9o&mode=related&search=

Amy Goodman interviews Scott Ritter-Part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCQa9aTvN_Y&mode=related&search=

Scott Ritter - Early Warning - July 23, 2002
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6KUpJcfzDc&mode=related&search=

It is ironic that a pastor advocates war & ex-Marine would advocate peace.

Moyers show has been fabulous since it came back...every week...It seems to address questions that "thinking moderates" have about the changes that are occurring more and more ...with no discussion. Thanks so much.

The challenge facing our world is a development of a THIRD WORLD VIEW which brings all peoples and religions together, not separate, fearful and suspicious of one another. The NEW WORLD VIEW has already begun. It is the view found in the Religious Science Movement (Not to be confused with Scientology), the new movie The Secret,the message of Wayne Dyer about Source Energy, the Ramtha School of Enlightenment and the new quantum physics science as seen in the movie, What The Bleep Do We Know. We are One with Source Energy/ Mother-Father Principal/God/The Void/The Father or whatever you wish to call God! We are not separate from God but part of God. We are all God's children - no exceptions!This was the true message of Jesus - "Behold God! I am God and you are also." That is why Jesus said, "Greater things will you do". There is not one "chosen person" like Jesus or Mohammad, none one "chosen people" like the Christians, Moslems or Jews. When every man, woman and child on planet Earth realizes their innate divinity we will have peace on Earth.

The three desert religions of Jehovah - Judaism, Christianity and Islam must be unwound. Meaning, those who believe in the religious texts must be willing to re-analyze them with a rational mind. If done each "believer" will discover that Jehovah, who demanded animal and human sacrifices, ordered the slaughter of people and animals, rape of virgins and was so insecure to demand that there be "No other gods before me" could not possibly be a holy God, and certainly not the God of the Universe! [Jehovah was most likely an alien being with atomic powers who impressed a primitive people with his technology. He loved to have "his own people" to worship him and he obviously loved war.] This was the true God of the desert religions - an insecure alien being!

Mary Hath Spokane
Author of the U.N. Peace Pledge:
"We are Peace Prophets. We will never kill another brother or sister human being. We believe only the Creator of that life has a right to end that life."

Christians United for Israel (CUFI): A theoretical interview

In February of 2005, leading US evangelists formed Christians United for Israel (CUFI), an umbrella organization under which all pro-Israel Christians in America can speak as one in support of the Jewish state. (“Evangelicals to launch 'Christian AIPAC” The Jerusalem Post, Feb 2, 2006.)

To fulfill God’s mandate to remove Arabs by any means necessary, CUFI paramilitaries recently garrisoned on the outskirts of Bet Al-masih to expel remaining Palestinian Christians from the all-Christian village. On condition of anonymity, CUFI granted us an interview with their commanding officer.

Q: Why is it so important to spend vast ministry resources on such a small, dwindling group of people?

A: We leave Hamas, Hizbullah, and the Palestinian Authority to Israel. They are political and military threats. The Palestinian Christians, on the other hand, are what we call “theological threats”. Yes, they are Christians and some of their families have oral histories that go back the first century. But that is of no concern to Jesus. The notion that Palestinian Christians have had a presence in the Holy Land for two millennia is a direct challenge to the primacy of evangelical claims.

Q: What about the long history of the Palestinian Christians?

A: Well, there is one family here who claims their ancestors were the shepherds in the fields at the time Jesus was born. At the time, the family was Jewish, but they remembered the visitation of angels and when Jesus began his ministry, they followed Him. We know this story isn’t true because the family is Catholic… or Eastern Orthodox, I can’t remember which. I could believe this story IF the family had maintained a belief consistent with Reformed or charismatic theology, because the early Christians believed exactly like we do. If their story is true, then they should have rejected the Messiah and stayed Jewish. That way, we’d be helping them now.

Q: What about the Kahane party? The Kahane Party platform was very similar to your own beliefs, but the Israeli government outlawed that party because it was considered racist. Isn’t this a discrepancy- that your beliefs are similar to a group outlawed by the Israeli government?

A: First of all, it may seem that way to the average person in the pew. But fortunately, the vast majority of evangelical Christians get their information straight from ministries like ours. By the time information reaches your average church, we’ve already filtered out those facts which distort the picture. As a result, your average church going Christian has never heard of the Kahane Party, so its not really a problem. Secondly, we sympathize with the majority of Israelis who don't agree with us, but they simply don't understand the plan God has for them.

Q: What is your relation with the other Palestinian Christian denominations?

A: The only ones we work with are those whose leadership reside in the United States. That’s one problem with the nominal churches, such as the Lutheran and Catholic. Too many Palestinians in leadership positions and all of a sudden the big picture is lost. To maintain a correct interpretation of Scripture, your ministry needs to be based in the American mid- or southwest.

Q: Why is the “big picture” lost if there are too many Palestinians in leadership positions?

A: The Palestinian Christians just don’t understand. For example, one of our mission directors, named Daud Asalah, was a Palestinian Methodist. Back in 1999, half a dozen Jewish settlers from a Kibbutz, which was funded by a New Jersey organization, bulldozed his garden and threatened him with their AK -47s. He called the Israeli police for protection and then called my office asking for my help. I told him the settlers are the People of God and as such, they had every right to destroy whatever they wanted. I told him it was his God-given obligation to leave if they so demanded. Then he yelled something about his children not being able to eat. I fired him on the spot. I mean, these Palestinians just don’t get it!

Q: I’ve often heard prophecy experts “prophecy” about things that never come to pass. They even get very basic information wrong. So how exactly do we know prophecy experts and televised preachers are ‘anointed’?

A: First, who else is anointed except for those who say they are? If they WEREN’T anointed, they couldn’t say it and get away with it, could they? Second, being in agreement with every Likud-sponsored position paper opens the door for the anointing. Third, oratory equals anointing. Also, when they use the word “dynamic” a lot, that’s a good indication of anointing too.

Then you have thousands more local preachers who rely on the big ministries for validation and information. If they don’t hear it from a big ministry or evangelist, your average local minister is going to assume that kind of news was fabricated by the big Liberal Conspiracy. Prophecy experts and TV preachers are God’s anointed. THAT’s why our foreign policy should follow their lead.

Q: So, of the tens of thousands of evangelical Christians that follow events in Israel, you mean no one had a problem with an Arab Christian being persecuted?

A: As I said before, most of what Christians know about Israel comes from what we tell them. In order for the Holy Spirit has to mold the political understanding of Christians, the American pulpit has to act as a filter. We can’t let their faith be shaken by inconsequential events. There is some information American prophecy leaders just can’t tell their congregations, such as the Neturei Karta, or like the aforementioned Kahane Party.

There are already thousands of Palestinian Christians living in the U.S. They have first hand experience in the Middle East; they have seen violence, some have lost homes because of Israelis, some have roots that go back 2000 years… and American Christians don’t believe a word they say. That means we’re doing our job.

Instead, Christians are hanging on every word that proceedeth from prophecy experts and televised preachers. When evangelical leaders preach on Israel, they are speaking “ex cathedra.” They are God’s anointed. That’s the way it should be.

Having been reared a Southern Baptist like Bill Moyers, I can only yearn for the days of great Texas liberals like Carlyle Marney and Blake Smith. No doubt they would wince at the preachings on James Hagee.

I would like to add to Elder.

The Iranian constitution says president Ahmadinejad is almost a figurehead [1], but is perfect for Bush fear mongering. Ahmadinejad won an upset election helped by Bushes “Axis of evil” speech [2].

Like his name implies, the real power in Iran is the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei. The Supreme Leader Khamenei issued a fatwa (religious edict) nuclear weapons are not compatible with Islamic law [3]. In 2003 the Supreme Leader, the only Iranian with war powers sent the Bush administration a peace proposal. The Bush administration rejected the proposal & Colin Powell couldn’t sell it. This early this year Condoleezza Rice lied to congress, said she never saw it [4]. In spite of this it appears that Rice along with Gates favors diplomacy over the military action Cheney & now Bush wants [5]. It’s Cheney not Ahmadinejad that’s the threat to peace.

The Iranians are allowed under the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty (NPT) enrich uranium for energy to 3.5 % vs. weapons grade 90%. Weapon inspections and the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty in Iran were undermined by the U.S. refusal of any guarantee that the U.S. would not attack Iran. This is similar to weapon inspections in Iraq [6].

Why does Iran need nuclear power when they are awash in oil? Because their oil production rate will peak like the rest of the world in 2010-2020. This is called “peak oil” or the halfway point of the global oil production combined [7]. Evidence of this is the global oil production leveling off in the past three years & oil prices doubling in less than 4 years. Also there is a mysterious jump in the several of the top “proven” oil reserves in Iran (1986), Iraq (1987), Kuwait (1984) & Saudi Arabia (1988) [8].

The reasons for attacking Iran parallel Iraq, but the tragedy of attacking Iran will be far worse. Iran is 3 times bigger than Iraq with a modern military. Saddam had no allies in the first Iraq war because the U.S. was his ally in the Iran-Iraq war; he was weakened in the second war because of sanctions. Russia & China won’t stand idly by the U.S. monopolizing the world’s oil supply. Iraq will be armed with weapons from Russia, China & Iran. U.S. casualties in Iraq will approach Vietnam War rates because of increased insurgents & weapons quality. Iran will shut down the Strait of Hormuz, choking off 40% of the worlds exported oil. Oil prices will double or triple causing hyper-inflation & economic depression. Any invasion to unblock the oil flow is doomed to fail since we don’t have enough conventional forces. Against overwhelming force the U.S. could be forced to use tactical nuclear weapons & eventually doom an American & probably an Israeli city to nuclear retaliation. This will disappoint the rapture people because there will be survivors of the nuclear bombs in Israel. But we will see the ugliness of radiation in deforming injuries & birth defects.

Bill Moyer I plead with you to get Scott Ritter on your show about his book Target Iran. This could doom your show as you pointed out with Phil Donahue. This would be because of AIPAC & their watch dogs. But do we risk an American city & the well being of our country because of our fear of AIPAC. I think most of this countries media would say yes.

[1a] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Iran
[1b] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/iran_power/html/president.stm
[2] http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/27/news/edsaikal.php
[3a] Scott Ritter’s (Former Marine Corps intelligence officer & UN Iraqi weapons inspector) book, “Target Iran”, page 170
[3b] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei
[3c] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4031603.stm
[3d] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Leader_of_Iran

[4b] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17049526/site/newsweek/
[4c] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EawPGrVz9o
[4d] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCQa9aTvN_Y&mode=related&search
[4e] http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/16/144204 (Transcript)
[4f] http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5446635
[4g]http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/02/14/ex_aide_says_rice_misled_us_congress_on_iran/
[4h] http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion?pid=166196
[5] http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2127114,00.html
[6a] (ARTICLE IV) http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Infcircs/Others/infcirc140.pdf
[6b] http://www.digitalnpq.org/archive/2006_spring/11_blix.html
[6c] http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/6/23/135333.shtml
[6d] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/21/AR2006052100369.html
[6f] http://thinkprog ress.org/2006/04/12/the-facts-about-irans-uranium-enrichment/
[6g] http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2966639.stm
[7a] http://www.energybulletin.net/primer.php
[7b] http://lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
[7c] http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2005/12/26/8364646/
[8a] http://www.eia.doe.gov/ipm/supply.html
[8b] http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/crude1.html

The US should have some kind of control over US corp. When they operate abroad, they represent the US. Sometimes their the only ones these people see and deal with. When they do things americans don't agree with, it hurts our relations with these people that could have long lasting effects. There should be oversight to protect US interest not corporate america. Coporate america has proved right here in the US it's all about maximizing profits at all cost. There is no social responsibility with US companys. That's why outsourcing has been going on since the Reagan era. Trickle down economics, like George Bush Sr. said is nothing but VOODO ECONOMICS he sure was right. The day of a living wage, is gone with the baby boomers, there aren't any more jobs with ritirement, health insurance, sick leave, vacation pay, holiday pay personnel days, profit sharing, Those days are long gone, as the baby boomers retire, You have to fight for minimum wage, and be happy you got that. What do you think other's are being paid in the other countrys, you figure it out. What goes on in the US doesn't happen in Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Ireland, Japan, Britain, Etc. they won't stand for it.

Im sure most americans have read somewhere how the US government uses it's power and money to influence regime change in other countrys. How would americans feel if another country did the same here. The US imposses what ever means necessary, to effect the outcome of elections, or creates situations to cause regime change, or outright asassanation was in the past accepted, I beleave not legal anymore, but whose to say they stopped useing it. This country has meddled in other countrys political affairs all over the globe, with and usually without the publics knowledge, all in the name of national security. Does that sound familiar, we hear that ourselves in the US when they refuse to answer a question from our own congress and senate. Our involvement in other countrys politics, has turned the people of these countrys against us, and for good reason. The US supports political change, not to create a democracy, or because a change will help the people advance in a society that might lift them up out of poverty, an education, health care, free speech, the same rights everyone wants. The US interfares on behalf of BIG BUSSINESS it's all about money plain and simple. It's not about their's or ours best interest, it's to protect corporate america's interest we go to war over, and send our troops to die for. And at the same time CORPORATE AMERICA can't get out of town fast enough, outsourceing, so they don't have to pay an american a living wage. That's why were in the middle east and elsewhere, protecting the interest of big bussiness, not yours or mine expectcialy not the people in the countrys were in. We support governments that have good relations with corporate america, reguardless how the people in those countrys are treated, that's why they hate americans. It happened in Cuba, that's why castro came to power, the people wanted change, they just didn't know what they were getting. If it wasn't for US corp.greed there wouldn't be a castro. US corp. are just an extension of our foreign policy, and when they rape these people for everything they have, it leaves a bad taste in their mouths. Hell they do it here in AMERICA.

When was the last time the US bombed a country, without being attacked first. Iraq was the last one by the bush white house. This guy is a loose cannon, to attack a peaceful country because they disagree with the bush white house, is a violation of international law. China, and Russia, have been more of a threat to our national security then Iran ever was, and still are. Iran is no threat to the US, this is just more B.S. coming from the white house, and these christian fundermentalist, a small minority of americans running this country for their own agenda. We might of had a case to invade Saudi Arabia, not Iraq, where most of the terorist came from. But the bush family is in bed with the Saudis, so we attacked Iraq instead. The Iranians can say what they want, action speaks louder than words, and as you see they don't want war with Israel or the U.S. their just letting off steam. Can you blame them, The US has meddled in their countrys affairs, under the shah, that was as bad to his own people as saddam. They have a right to dislike the US, because this government supported their governments abuse. Even so they have no intentions of attacking Israel or the US, and until they do there's no way we can justify any type of an attack on them. It seems they have more rights to speak out, then we do in the US. When you disagree with this government your labled unpatriotic. It's because people can make a case against U.S. polycy in the middle east, so they try to shut you up. The US has thousands of nukes, they have none, why should we be afraid, were not.

Democracy 2.0 Declaration – Mobilize.org

On Thursday, October 4th, 2007, 50 youth leaders worked together at the Democracy 2.0 Summit in Washington D.C. The Summit, a national movement instituted by Mobilize.org, is a way to bring attention to the ideas that America’s youth has to offer. Democracy 2.0 is designed to address the civic participation needs and interests of the Millennial Generation (targeting the 16-30 age group).

Mobilize.org has worked for the past year to survey young people about what they feel is an issue in both their own community and on a national level. This consensus among the youth of America has been addressed during the Summit in order to produce the Democracy 2.0 Declaration. This declaration represents what the youth believes is working and is not working in the current democracy of the U.S.

The declaration serves as a foundation for political candidates to understand what the youth of America feels strongly about. The Declaration will be shared with 435 youth representatives at Mobilize.org’s Party for the Presidency, an event in Hollywood, CA that will take place December 29-31.

Democracy 2.0 was launched to upgrade and renew our political process in America by providing guidelines for positive social change that take advantage of both the tremendous passion of today’s youth leaders and the powerful social networking and technology tools they are using to create communities.

Mobilize.org is here to listen and help instigate change within the youth of America. You can get involved by going to www.mobilize.org for more information.

The people who follow Hagee, though they read the Bible, are NOT CHRISTIANS. Their focus is on the Old Testament, rarely mentioning the New. Their concept of God is exactly what Christ came to change. They have NO CONCEPT of what Christianity is.

what is all this about the 2nd coming; once from the womb and once from the tomb = II...and this talk of Armageddon (Strongs call it a fictional place) is it supposed to be worse than the fall of Jerusalem in (about) 70 AD ??? and if yes then how can that be...ref. NT KJV Matt 24-21...nope, can't be !!!
Hardshell-07

In two important instances, Bill Moyers and his guests were unfortunately remiss on the facts, and unwittingly played into the war hysteria:
1. It was stated in passing that Iran is developing a nuclear weapons program, even though this is pure supposition, unsupported by facts to date. For instance, Mohammed ElBaradei, Director of the IAEA, recently reiterated that "We have not seen any weaponization of their program, nor have we received any information to that effect — no smoking gun or information from intelligence".
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/07/europe/EU-GEN-Nuclear-Agency-Iran.php
Note that the NY Times considers ElBaradei “far and away the best source of knowledge about Iran’s nuclear progress.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/17/world/middleeast/17elbaradei.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
Scott Ritter, in his book “Targeting Iran” reports that the IAEA receives U.S. and Israeli intelligence, so that ElBaradei’s statement (above) probably includes such information.
And why is it that Khomeini’s infamous fatwa against Rushdei was widely reported, whereas the current Ayatollah Khamenei’s fatwa forbidding “the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons” is virtually unknown to the Western media?
http://www.spacewar.com/2005/050412130710.kizyij2s.html

2. Bill Moyers and guests equate Hagee’s call for war on Iran, as an apocalyptic view equivalent with that of Iran’s Ahamdinejad. As another blogger notes, he mentions in passing the incorrectly translated now mantra about “wiping Israel off the map”. While there is no question of Iran’s hostility to Israel, the press (including Moyers) fails to report repeated statements by Iranian leaders that they have no intention of attacking another country. For instance, on Sept. 26, Ahamadinejad told a group of religious leaders hat there was "no military solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" and that it was "not Iran's intention to destroy Israel." http://www.antiwar.com/zunes/?articleid=11696
In the same vein, Iran’s foreign ministry spokesman said, “the Islamic Republic poses no threat to any country”.
http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/printer_22859.shtml

If even the Bill Moyers program buys into the pro-war hype without skepticism, we may be doomed to a catastrophic war.
Would it be possible to make up for this error, by interviewing ElBaradei on the nuclear issue, as well as others who have proposed carefully reasoned ways for us to achieve security without war?

So-called prophecy in the Bible is not basically foretelling but forthtelling. Prophets addressed the people of their day with the Word of God. Prophecy is not to be confused with apocalypticism. The Christian Apocalypse, Revelation, is not a road map of the future but a Word for Christians in a time of great persecution. Its message of comfort and hope is always relevant.

Churches for Middle East Peace (CMEP) is a coalition of 21 public policy offices of national churches and agencies -- Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant.


CMEP began its work in 1984 out of the conviction that the policy perspectives and long Middle East experience of our member bodies should be more widely known in the public policy arena.

CMEP maintains an on-going dialogue with Congress and this Administration.

Among CMEP's principals and advocacy concerns: the avoidance and resolution of armed conflicts, human rights, arms control, foreign aid, the unique nature of Jerusalem - sacred to Christians, Jews and Muslims and a two-state solution.

LEARN MORE:

http://www.cmep.org/

Eileen Fleming,

Author "KEEP HOPE ALIVE" and "MEMOIRS of a NICE IRISH-AMERICAN 'GIRL'S' LIFE in OCCUPIED TERRITORY"

Producer "30 Minutes with Vanunu" freely streaming on WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/


An uncomfortable and thought-provoking show.
The Christian Zionists seem to follow in a line of belief directly from the Crusades of the 11th to 13th centuries, except that these modern Crusaders embrace Jews rather than persecute them. Those old Crusades were a complex mix of material conquest, cultural clash, and religious fervor.
In light of the fear that clearly grips these evangelicals and Rabbi Lerner's comment about a spreading depression of the current times, historian John Weiss' observation in his Ideology of Death is interesting:

Crop failure, famine, and plague created a surge of religious passion; in a prescientific age natural disasters were seen as the wrath of the Lord. To appease God, the holy places must be redeemed.

http://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/history_wing/antisemitism/crusades.cfm
While contemporary US fear, depression, sense of helplessness may stem from an existential crisis of culture, the response - an embrace of religiously-inspired aggression against an aggrandized outward enemy - seems a familiar human response.

Of course, this understanding of spirit and faith appears to ignore all the principles of the Enlightenment, which intervenes in the course of time between those Crusades and now. As most US school children learn, the country of the US grew out of Enlightenment principles. That uneasy conversation of faith, spirit, and reason, which has fueled the cultural and technological development of the west, appears completely ignored in these preachings of prophecy, dogmatic certainty, and war.

A separate matter regarding rhetoric. In a show which quietly urges a careful, nuanced consideration of the claims of faith and the interplay of religion and politics, it was ill-advised of Mr Moyers to cite repeatedly the much-publicized comment by Iranian Pres Ahmadinejad about "wiping Israel off the map".

Mr Ahmadinejad makes no secret of his antipathy to the Zionist government in Israel. But questions about the translation and meaning of his remarks in Farsi, which were originally translated as "wipe Israel off the map," have been widely discussed by speakers of Farsi and English. The consensus seems to be that the translation is challenging and "wipe off the map" is misleading, esp because Ahmadinejad's comment involved an abstraction that implies no specific or immediate action. The comment definitely should not be construed as the equivalent of Haggee's "Iran is a clear and present danger. ... time for our country to consider a military preemptive strike against Iran"

Perhaps Mr Moyers used the phrase as a shorthand for a range of hostile Arab and Persian attitudes toward Israel. But, esp in the context of this particular show, which suggests the need for care and the avoidance of zealotry in considering religious faith, his reiteration of a popular misquote only stokes the present fires of misunderstanding and demonization.

NYT discussion of translation: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?ex=1307678400&en=efa2bd266224e880&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Guardian discussion, follow-up to NYT: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jonathan_steele/2006/06/post_155.html

An uncomfortable and thought-provoking show.
The Christian Zionists seem to follow in a line of belief directly from the Crusades of the 11th to 13th centuries, except that these modern Crusaders embrace Jews rather than persecute them. Those old Crusades were a complex mix of material conquest, cultural clash, and religious fervor.
In light of the fear that clearly grips these evangelicals and Rabbi Lerner's comment about a spreading depression of the current times, historian John Weiss' observation in his Ideology of Death is interesting:

Crop failure, famine, and plague created a surge of religious passion; in a prescientific age natural disasters were seen as the wrath of the Lord. To appease God, the holy places must be redeemed.

http://www.flholocaustmuseum.org/history_wing/antisemitism/crusades.cfm
While contemporary US fear, depression, sense of helplessness may stem from an existential crisis of culture, the response - an embrace of religiously-inspired aggression against an aggrandized outward enemy - seems a familiar human response.

Of course, this understanding of spirit and faith appears to ignore all the principles of the Enlightenment, which intervenes in the course of time between those Crusades and now. As most US school children learn, the country of the US grew out of Enlightenment principles. That uneasy conversation of faith, spirit, and reason, which has fueled the cultural and technological development of the west, appears completely ignored in these preachings of prophecy, dogmatic certainty, and war.

A separate matter regarding rhetoric. In a show which quietly urges a careful, nuanced consideration of the claims of faith and the interplay of religion and politics, it was ill-advised of Mr Moyers to cite repeatedly the much-publicized comment by Iranian Pres Ahmadinejad about "wiping Israel off the map".

Mr Ahmadinejad makes no secret of his antipathy to the Zionist government in Israel. But questions about the translation and meaning of his remarks in Farsi, which were originally translated as "wipe Israel off the map," have been widely discussed by speakers of Farsi and English. The consensus seems to be that the translation is challenging and "wipe off the map" is misleading, esp because Ahmadinejad's comment involved an abstraction that implies no specific or immediate action. The comment definitely should not be construed as the equivalent of Haggee's "Iran is a clear and present danger. ... time for our country to consider a military preemptive strike against Iran"

Perhaps Mr Moyers used the phrase as a shorthand for a range of hostile Arab and Persian attitudes toward Israel. But, esp in the context of this particular show, which suggests the need for care and the avoidance of zealotry in considering religious faith, his reiteration of a popular misquote only stokes the present fires of misunderstanding and demonization.

NYT discussion of translation: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/11/weekinreview/11bronner.html?ex=1307678400&en=efa2bd266224e880&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Guardian discussion, follow-up to NYT: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jonathan_steele/2006/06/post_155.html

Great show. Thanks Bill.

If we want to be the peacemakers, we also need to respect the opinions of others, and this includes the Christian right. We can gently and lovingly remind them that Jesus preached love and not war.

“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself” Franklin D. Roosevelt

As I listen to the Christian Zionists, Mr Bush, and read the post of those who support such beliefs what I her is fear mongering. And this fact, is the surest sign these beliefs are NOT of God.

“God is love and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them…There is NO fear in love, but perfect love cast out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love. We love because he first loved us...Those who say. “I love God,” and hate their brothers and sisters, are liars… 1 John 4:16-20

To those who are taken in by this heresy, OPEN YOUR EYES. The hate and fear that is at the heart of this movement is what is NOT consistent with God’s law of love. Cast out this evil fear that has BLINDED you, turn back to the Christ of love and he will forgive YOU.

I have read some of the comments now and the agenda of the "elite" is moving forward. I thought the people on the left were "tolerant", but when it comes to christianity, all they have is contempt. Have any of you just for one moment thought if Mr. Hagee, Charles Stanley, James Dobson, and others are right, what would happen to you? You won't even think about it because you are blinded by the truth. Some can see, others cannot. I suggest you open your eyes and ears. Us who know Bible prophecy know all this is evidence of the end times. Scoffers, false christs, Jesus said they would hate you because of me, Matthew 24:9-10, its all happening right before our eyes. If the left gets the presidency, congress and the house, the tolerance for christianity will be under extreme attack. Free speech is already under attack, McCain- Feingold anyone? Higher taxes anyone? "Can we have all your guns" anyone? Look what they have done to Rush over the last two weeks, they have twisted and turned what he said upside down, report it as truth and no one on the left has the guts to say anything because that doesn't fit the "agenda". We are under attack people, everywhere. Even what Rush "thought" is being talked about. They already have control of the media, and pretty soon if we don't wake up they will control it all. Those of us who see this are hoping Jesus comes soon, we don't like what we see our country turning into. Its going the way of Europe, the "New Age" enlightenment. This is a religion that worships the created, not the C R E A T O R! And it is a religion don't be fooled. All christians need to do this now or it will all be lost to the "elite", II Chronicles 7:14 "If my people which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." That is what America needs to do. Will we do it or be lost?

We are pleased to watch such a disturbing video. If the christian right and neo conservative unite with the Israel Lobby in Washington they will wipe out Iranian people from the face of the earth and as far as plastinians are concerned they are the victim of the victim of Hitler. I am disgusted by John Hagee and all his followers and out politicians who are suppoting these hate mongers.

If you have followed the teachings of these wing nuts for the last 30 years you'd have to be an idiot to not realize that their predictions of the future are just snatched out of thin air. I remember as a boy ( in the 70's)being told the end of the world could happen at any moment and it scared me silly at the time. Now, 30 years later the SAME backwoods philosiphers are saying the same lines they did then.
for example..." In the End times.There will be wars and rumors of wars". Well Notradamus ,there have ALWAYS been wars and rumors of wars. Not very hard predict that one. That's like predicting the sun will rise tommorrow.
I am ashamed as a Evangelical Christian to see my sect go from turning the other cheek to inciting wars on people that have NEVER attacked us . One day, Evangelical blind faith dogma and reality WILL collide. Hope they are honest enough to acknowledge it when it happens. this I pray
Amen

I have seen Mr. Hagee on television and he is a powerful speaker but I am disturbed by what he says in this program. To me it is the ultimate irony that the spiritual awareness that religions give us, which has done so much to civilize us, can be just as easy used to justify the worst of human behavior; to kill and destroy. Sometimes I wish that there was no Bible, no Koran, no Torah, so no one could justify death and destruction by quoting a holy book. I wish that there was no need to write anything down because God would just come us and speak directly to each of us, individually, lovingly, all the time. No need for prophets or prophecies. No need for saviors and crucifixions. No need for preachers or scholars. No need for religion and the likes of Mr.Hagee.

If you insist on taking EVERY WORD of the Bible LITTERLY, then how can you take the attitude that God rejected Ishmael and his descendants?

"And God heard the voice of the boy; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, what troubles you Hagar? Do not be afraid; for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make a great nation of him." God was with the boy, and he grew up;" Genesis 17-18, 20.

Just as always, God brings all things to good when we humans take matters in our own hands as Sarah and Abraham did with Hagar.

This verse shows me the great compassion God showed to Ishmael, that his blessings was also with him and his descendants.

If you must take every word in the Bible literally, you can not pick and choose at will.

Hmmmmm.... Do Jesus' work by blowing people up. Yeah, I don't seem to recall that scriptural reference. I seem to recall something about "Love one another." At any rate, I'm pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't want us to pre-emptively attack Iran or any other country.

Great story, Bill. Terrifying, but great. Now to email Senator McCain and let him know how disappointed I am that he has had anything to do with these nuts.....

Isamel was not the child of promise, Isaac was. Ismael is not inheritor of the promise land so it reads in Genesis. I am supprise the Rabbi did not say this.

Mary Williams

As always, your Journal is one of the best TV offerings we have. I am shocked at the John Hagee movement. I have never understood why the US is so protective of Israel. I thought of it as just another country, to be respected and left alone. Hagee is frighteningly toxic to our intelligence. Even the Rabbi in your discussion doesn't understand that Church and State MUST be separated because humans cannot keep themselves from telling others how to "believe". I found your program enlightening, scary, ominous, and now I want to DO something to stop the religious zealots from all "faiths" from ruining our planet.

Long ago I gave up the idea of Biblical literalism, when I did it opened the door for God to profoundly touch my life and the journey has deeply enriched my faith and understanding. God is peace, love and grace with unmatched patience. Get you head out of the Old Testament and turn your attention to Christ. If the people of the Old Testament had gotten their understanding of God right, there would have been no need for Christ.

To those of you who must take every word of the Bible literally, and refuse to grapple with the profound paradoxes found within it. I say be especially careful to keep things in context. Anything can be proven by taking the bible out of context, “Cain slew Abel … go and do likewise.” Those who call others false profits may be wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Watching the discussion on John Hagee's support of Israel, I am disappointed to see you had two "humnaists" Rabbi Michael Lerner and Timothy Weber who assert mistakenly that these Christian Zionists align themselves with "the most reactionary elements" in Israel and the Israel lobby that supposedly controls Congress It distresses me that you had no counterpoint, someone like Daryl Temkin, to exposes their lies and mis-characterizations. When will our society wake up to the Third World War that Islam is waging against us, using our freedoms to undermine us, that Islam is a political ideology using the mask of religion to insure the obediance of Muslims in following the WORDS OF HATRED IN OVER A HUNDRED VERSES OF THE KORAN. It must be exposed for what it is, lose tax-free status, and its mosques closed. Consider the influence of Saudi Arabia, the monies with which they corrupt our politicians which far outweighs the "Israel Lobby". Ask yourself why the State Department is loaded with Arabists occupied with our oil interests instead of our values. Please get back to me.

Had there not been guests following this segment on John Hagee and CUFI, I probably would not have slept tonight...it was that disturbing.

And to finish the hour with "On Amish Grace" was brilliant. The lesson from the Amish could teach Hagee, CUFI, and the "Islamo-Terrorists" another way to view the world around them.....if only they could listen.

Dear Mr. Moyers:

Congratulations on such a timely and important debate. And most important, congratulations for having had the courage to present Dr. Weber and Rabi Lerner's point of view. At a time when I was at the edge of becoming cinical about organized politics and religion, I came across an issue of Tikkun Magazine. I felt hope returning to my existence, knowing that there are people who are really concerned with the state of the world, and who think that peace and understanding can be achieved.

Thank you for such a wonderful and unbiased religious and political analysis. I believe your program has helped me to define myself: Evangelical Centrist.

I hope I can make a small contribution to peace, progress, and stability for ALL people in the Middle East. I just do not know how, yet.

I found the discussion after words very biased towards the left. Neither guest represented my world view. I am a born again christian and I think both guests do not understand christians on my side. I don't want war, I don't have an apolcalyptic world view. But I also know what the Bible says about the end times. I take the Bible literal, every word. Your guests talked about God as a man of peace which he is. What about Exodus 15:3? He saved the Jews from Pharoah by killing them, no person did that, God did that. What about when after 40 years of wondering in the wilderness and it was time to go into the promised land, God told the Jews to KILL all the men, women, children, and all their animals. Thats not very peaceful but God has his reasons why he commands what he commands and we are to obey. If we don't we suffer the consequences. Also, I don't think it was fair to lump all of the "right" in with George Bush. He is a Methodist and does not beleive in prophecy as John Hagee and his followers. He thinks God is done with Israel and the "church" has replaced them. We don't beleive that at all. And we do love the Jewish people and we do not wish them any harm. They are the "chosen" ones, without them the church would not exist.

Thank you for another insightful discussion. I have been a born again Christian for several years, but lately have been ashamed of the stand that evangelical Christians are taking. Pastor John Hagee and his group seem to forget that the life of Gentiles (including Muslims) is as precious to God as is the life of the Jewish people. Advocating for preemptive war and making children orphans and parents childless is neither what Christ died for nor what He called us to do. When I first became Christian I was living in a communist country where people were persecuted for believing in Jesus Christ. Surely, this is not what we were persecuted for. The danger is when religious people get too much involved in politics. It was the religious and powerful Pharisees who successfully plotted to kill Jesus thinking that they were protecting God’s kingdom. May God forgive us for our insensitivity. After watching the clip about John Hagee, I had decided not to call myself an evangelical Christian any longer. But then I was encouraged to hear from your guests that there are, indeed, other Christians who share my views. I hope one day we, evangelical Christians, will set good examples like the Amish did last year by showing forgiveness and tolerance, and will be able to erase the dark stain that is currently muddying the true Christian message.

Why did you choose two commentators who obviously disagreed with the “evangelical radical” view? I think to remain objective; you would have had to have two opposing view points, not just two different people from each group with the same ideas. Why not one of the radical Jewish people that the rabbi kept referring to on your broadcast? Was this on purpose? Just curious.

Go Bill. Your solid in a sea of mush.

Hello Bill,

As usual, another excellent expose. You made a comment that I want to expound on concerning how politics "enflames" religion (not necessarily an exact quote).

This is something that is becomming clearer and clearer in my mind over the years. I have spent many years of study of the "Bible", both the Hebrew and Greek, so although certainly no scholar, I do have at least a clue.

So, with that said, let me paste a section of something I posted recently to my "blog" which I believe is very relevant to your program tonight:

From:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HebrewTorahConcepts/message/7885

My question has become: who is the real enemy, and who do I allow to define it?

Over the years I have come to see that most of us God fearing peoples have been duped by the politicians, multinational corporations, multinational corporate media, and of course their master, the international bankers who hold their "god" up to be worshipped, which is the money supply.

Remember Constantine, and how he claimed to adopt christainity and was fighting a "religious" war? This is nothing new, and it continues to this day, and it is a lie. These entities, these false gods mentioned above have duped the truly God fearing people into warring against each other, while they make money hand over fist on the blood of the duped sheep.

Don't you find it ironic that in this country we have evangelical leaders who believe this war against "radical Islam" is a righteous thing, while at the same time they hate the godless culture in this country, the same godless culture that would be imported to the Islamic countries if we had our way, the same godless culture that the truly God fearing Muslims fear will infect their societies, the same godless culture that causes them to label the US as the great satan.

The attack on the world trade center is right out of the Torah, tearing down of the high places, the places from which these false gods mentioned above rule and subjugate the peoples, the same places from which duped peoples children are sacrificed, but how many of the truly God fearing people in this land see this?

I pray for the day that all truly God fearing peoples, whether Christian, Muslim or Jewish, those who worship and fear the God of Abraham, band together and recognize who the real enemy is, ie, these false gods. Who are these truly God fearing peoples I speak of? Imo, they are those who fight for justice, who fight for the poor and defenseless, for the widows and orphans. In other words, they fight against tyrannical leaders who enrich themselves thru the blood of the duped sheep, whether they are Jewish, Muslim or Christian. Those who live by the Covenant written in stone to the best of their ability and knowledge. They are my friends and allies.

I've grown sick and tired of arguing over doctrinal understandings with other God fearing peoples, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim. What I am quite sure of is they and I will all gleefully and tearfully get in line when YHWH makes His presence known to the world, and all our doctrinal misunderstandings will be rectified. All I care about today is whether they honor and respect the ONE God, and live by the Covenant written in stone to the best of their knowledge and ability. The tyrants don't do these things, and THEY are my enemy, and YHWH and His Torah have led me to fully recognize this. HaleluYAH!! Give me a sincere God fearing Muslim as a neighbor on one side of my home, and a sincere God fearing Christian on the other side, and a sincere God fearing Jew on the other side, and I know my children and household will be much safer than if the godless tyrants and the militant of their duped sheep who believe their lies were living beside me.


De 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth YHWH thy God require of thee, but to fear YHWH thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve YHWH thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of YHWH, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the YHWH thy God's, the earth also, with all that therein is.
15 Only YHWH had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
17 For YHWH your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
18 He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
20 Thou shalt fear YHWH thy God; Him shalt thou serve, and to Him shalt thou cleave, and swear by His Name.
21 He is thy praise, and He is thy God, that hath done for thee these great and terrible things, which thine eyes have seen.


Mic 6:6 Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
9 YHWH's voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name: hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.


Who is the true enemy? Continuing in Micah:


10 Are there yet the treasures of wickedness in the house of the wicked, and the scant measure that is abominable?
11 Shall I count them pure with the wicked balances, and with the bag of deceitful weights?
12 For the rich men thereof are full of violence, and the inhabitants thereof have spoken lies, and their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.


If you are unaware of the manipulations of these false "gods", and the tools they use I HIGHLY suggest you view these videos, weigh them against what YHWH and His Torah is telling you, and decide for yourselves if I am speaking correctly:


A solid foundation for recognizing the enemy, these false gods and how they operate. Remember as/if you watch, silver and money are one in the same in Torah, and the admonitions against charging interest and accumulation of wealth are well described, keep these in mind while watching the video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936


An excellent example of their manipulating works in action (btw, Bill Moyers, who does not bow to the corporate media masters, has been doing some excellent work of "exposing". Many of the shows in "Bill Moyers Journal" are quite eyeopening):

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html


Some of those who profit most on the blood of the sheeple (except of course the bankers who gain interest on each and every dollar loaned to fight these wars, which is the greatest "pyramid scheme" ever, and is clearly addressed in the moneymasters video listed above):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5531850340159646757&q=cnn+iraq+for+sale&total=55&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


And although this guy is a little loose with the facts, the basic core message is pretty accurate, imo, and about half way thru it, it kinda picks up where the moneymasters video left off (although I am pretty sure the Kennedy "quote" which isn't identified as a quote is someone else speaking trying to imitate Kennedy's voice):

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com:80/



War is the greatest moneymaker in their arsenals, and they dupe the sheep into fighting these wars, as they and theirs sit upon their "clean" golden thrones. Connect the dots my beloved friends.

I am eternally thankful and praise YHWH for providing us with His Torah so that we do not blindly follow the sheeple and their masters! I look forward to the day that YHWH Himself proclaims Liberty over the land.
Ps 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou art with me; Thy rod and Thy staff they comfort me.


Sincerely,
Tom Moniz
Stuart Florida


I come to the Journal for sustainance after a long week of dealing with many of the issues you raise. I thank you for providing a clarifying and transforming experience. Your choice of guests is remarkable and the depth of the discussions is so helpful. The courage of thought is palpable. Thought and prayer meet on this show.

Will we never learn? Will history always repeat itself, teaching us nothing? Hagee wasn't talking about wiping out all of Iran - he was talking about a strike to take out the nuclear capability of a tyranical government.

Prime Minister Chamberlain in the pre-WWII era was exactly the "peacemaker" you seem to think the Bible requires. He was a willing "pawn" in the massacre or 6 million Jews, 2 million Pols, and 4 million Soviets because he negotiated with Hitler and appeased him just as some would have the US negotiate with the gov't of Iran. But tyrants do not honor agreements. Only a fool negotiates with a devil, and tyrants are fueled by the flames of hell. Tyrants only understand strength of will which includes deadly force. There has NEVER been a lasting, "negotiated" peace. Ever. Lasting peace is only attained by utter and complete victory. A preemptive strike now, may save millions of American, Israeli and Iranian lives, and holds the best and only promise for peace. Appeasement accomplishes nothing - never has - it only emboldens the tyrants.

Want to be a peacemaker? You have to be willing to kill the tyrants. Our national motto should be the same as that on the Virginia state flag: Sic Semper Tyrannis

As I was watching Moyer's interview, I was asking myself, where is Christopher Hitchens when you need him?

When Rev. Hagee preached to his congregation advocating a "preemptive strike on Iran", I just wonder what the reaction would of been had a man stood up in the back of the room and shouted:

BOMB THEM! KILL THEM ALL!

That IS what Hagee was advocating, but when Evangelicals talk about it, they clean up the language, saying they need to do "something" to "take care of" this presumed threat. They never actually come right and say exactly what it is they are suggesting: the killing and mass murder of millions of civilians.

I don't remember that chapter in the Bible.

If the peacemakers are the children of God, whose children are they that make war?

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