Photo of Bill Moyers Bill Moyers Journal
Bill Moyers Journal
Bill Moyers Journal
Watch & Listen The Blog Archive Transcripts Buy DVDs

« Rethinking Immigration in a Tough Economy | Main | Michael Winship: For Whom The Bailout Tolls »

Standards for Voter Verification?

(Photo by Robin Holland)

Speaking with Bill Moyers on THE JOURNAL this week, Mark Crispin Miller argued against laws mandating that voters present specific forms of identification before casting their ballots:

“[The requirement] harks back to reconstruction and the Jim Crow laws... These IDs are not free. It often involves taking the time and trouble to go work your way through the bureaucracy and get that document... The use of signatures has served us perfectly well for a very long time. That’s kind of a common sense approach to this thing. So I would say that requiring documentation is putting an undue burden on a lot of people who may not have such documentation.”

In a 6-3 decision in April, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld an Indiana law requiring voters to present specific forms of government-issued identification like drivers’ licenses or passports. Opponents had argued that the law discriminated against poor, elderly, and minority voters. In a column about that Indiana Law, the WALL STREET JOURNAL’s John Fund wrote:

“Supporters say photo ID laws simply extend rules that require everyone to show such ID to travel, enter federal office buildings or pick up a government check. An honor system, in their view, invites potential fraud... A new study by Jeffrey Milyo of the Truman Institute of Public Policy on Indiana’s voter turnout in 2006 did not find evidence that counties with more poor, elderly or minority voters had ‘any reduction in voter turnout relative to other counties’... Indiana officials make the obvious point that, without a photo ID requirement, in-person fraud is ‘nearly impossible to detect or investigate.’”

What do you think?

  • Should voters be required to present government-issued photo ID at the polls? Why or why not?
  • Do you have confidence in the integrity of America’s electoral system?

  • TrackBack

    TrackBack URL for this entry:


    Been a fan of airplanes and aviation to get a long time, exciting website.

    Yes I think you should show some form of ID. To rent a movie, cash a check, use your debit card etc.. you have to have some form of ID. For those that can not afford to do this, it should be free. It could go along with other wlfare benefits. I did apartment property management snd we could only rent to people that had a drivers license or another state issued photo ID. So since voting is so important I feel people could plan ahead to have some sort of ID. If they are homeless then they could give their SS# then some sort of cross reference could be done but the vote would be held until varification. Everyone should vote and we should be able to find a way to get everyone registered but not have so much fraud. This puts the election in such a bad light with all the Acorn stuff. With a fair and honest election I feel everyone would be proud and support whichever canidate would win. I know I would! Kim

    The problem goes deeper on voting. Here in Riverside, California, we have already had voting at least one reported incident of a vote for Congressional challenger Bill Hedrick flip to incumbant congressman Ken Calvert. If it can happen here, what is being done in so-called battleground states? Having spent 35 years in Information Services, I can tell you that anything can be done on a computer to change results or flip vote totals. We need guarantees that our votes will count. And it is so much easier to influence one national race than the myriads of local ones.

    I´ve seen you piece about PLAYING FOR CHANGE: PEACE THROUGH MUSIC, it was fantastic....
    I should say firts, that I am venezuelan and watching this opportunity that Mark Johnson has put forward and I have to say that it reminds me of the venezuelan project, The Venezuelan Orchest System (children playing, being liberated by music) initiated by Prof Jose Antonio Abreu, recently awarded with the Principe of Asturias Award. You should look for him was a wonderful presentation. thank you so much!

    regarding the comments here about electronic voting, may i add that critique of such a system should not be a blanket "it can't work."

    as an engineer and a mavin on user interface design, if the user interface screens were better-designed, there could be NO mistakes in registering a vote for whom you really chose.

    if encryption can move billions of dollars around the world in the blink of an eye, and i can feel secure moving thousands around my personal accounts with simple passwords, please don't try to tell me that voting results could not be VERY-well-secured, even over an internet connection.

    it can be done, if they hysteria and stupid claims were filtered out and some good engineering and performance specifications were done in the first place, not after the fact.

    What ARE we going to do when the Republicans contest the elections on the grounds of 'voter fraud' because they somehow did not manage to win after all of theirs? We are in for the battle of the century, with no guarantee of where it will end up.

    The sequel to "Murder, Spies, and Voting Lies"--a must-see video--would have to expand on the Ray Lemme story--the state investigator found murdered because the evidence on the Florida vote-rigging-Yang-over-billing-spies-under-our-wing affair went "as high up as I could imagine."

    Wayne Madsen's "Texas to Florida: White House-linked clandestine operation for 'vote switching' software" (Dec. 2004)
    reported intelligence sources indicating that Rep. Tom Feeney's vote-switching scam was financed by one Five Star Trust, an off-shore shell operation involving, among others, Adnan Khashoggi, notorious Saudi arms dealer of Iran-contra and BCCI bank fraud fame, and George H.W. Bush.

    We live in the most serious of times, and if the American people are bamboozled for the third time, there is no telling where this nation will end up.

    It is of the utmost urgency that we seek and divulge the truth, mustering all the courage we can possibly find.

    The Voters' Rights Amendment - Prerequisites

    This year will witness the most controversial election to date in regards to the sheer volume of electoral legal disputes and reports of voter fraud. Over the past 8 years, this nation's electoral system has progressively deteriorated, so much so that significant percentages of the population no longer have confidence that their vote will be counted. This is not the problem of one election or one misapplied technology, this is a pervasive and fundamental systemic dysfunction, and the dysfunction is getting worse.

    The problem with our electoral system is not by any means a partisan issue either. While certain factions are currently pointing to each other's disreputable voting-related practices right now, the fact remains that the underlying flaws within our system allow for either side or any party to exploit those flaws maliciously. This possibility has existed and has been exploited off and on for most of our history; usually when one particular practice is abused too often steps are taken to correct them. Over the years, we have expanded voting to include; former slaves, women, 18 year olds and all eventually all minorities (by tearing down artificial barriers which had been placed in front of them).

    But 8 years ago, a relatively new and more complex aspect of the dysfunction arose - the influence of Information Technology (IT) on the electoral system. IT impacts voting in both of its core processes: voter registration and actual vote tabulation. IT provides a more expansive and efficient means for manipulating both core processes in favor of whomever is in control of the technologies. This is an area that I'm somewhat familiar with, I've worked as a systems engineer and enterprise IT architect for nearly 15 years. It was IT engineers that raised some of the early warning signs of what might be coming in 1999, eventually after the fiasco in Florida during the 2000 recount, some of these folks started a group Verified Voting.

    What we have in essence, is an electoral system in utter chaos. There are at least 8 national voting acts (including the arbitrary and confounding Help America Vote Act of 2002), 3 constitutional amendments related to voting, unique voting standards and regulations for all 50 states as well as even more diversification at the local 'board of elections' level in thousands of US counties and municipalities.

    There is no clear, single set of guidelines and standards to unify any of it.

    Some of you might be asking, why didn't our forefathers build a more comprehensive set of voter standards and electoral processes directly into the United States Constitution? Well, the reason was simple, they viewed voting as a far more exclusive activity back then. The adoption of popular participation in our democratic processes evolved over 200 years - it didn't emerge ready-made in 1787.

    What the founding fathers did provide us though, was a clear and simple process through which we could amend our Constitution as the nation evolved. This mechanism has been used about a dozen times and can be used again.

    There is only one action that can be taken that will once and for all ensure that this nation's voting processes and standards are fair and fairly run, and that action is a redefinition of voting rights and processes for All Americans.

    A Voters' Rights Amendment to the United States Constitution is needed to clearly articulate three basic concepts:

    * Basic Individual Voting Rights (unifying all previous improvements and providing a coherent vision for the future).
    * Voting Processes (a way to deconflict the countless contradictory practices now being used, many of which are designed to manipulate voting results).
    * Voting Standards and Oversight expectations (a baseline set of simple expectations, making it crystal clear what can and can't be done).

    The prerequisites for such an amendment include the following:

    * The ability to remove partisan politics from the management of elections (campaigning and running the actual elections are two different things).
    * The ability to remove conflicts of interests from voting processes and technologies.
    * The ability to ensure 99.999% confidence in voter participation and results.
    * The ability to provide one clear set of guidelines by which any legal electoral challenge can be measured against in the judicial system.
    * The ability to provide complete transparency into all voting processes to the American people.

    Voting is our first and most sacred right as American Citizens. It is indeed the promise of Democracy that we hold most dear, the ideal we have fought for in dozens of wars and conflicts. It's high time we clearly defined that right and placed it squarely within our national charter.

    copyright 2008, Stephen Lahanas

    Letter to Bill Moyers:

    Thank you SO much for presenting the most crucial issue for our democracy, election fraud and voter suppression, with Mark Crispin Miller last week. And especially, thanks for information on how to help. Already in early voting there are reports of 2-3 hour lines in Florida, Latino voter intimidation in New Mexico, and in several states votes “flipping” on touch-screens, and thousands of legitimate voters being purged from rolls.

    I was sorry, but not surprised, at some of the hostile responses. Fyi, in response to the person giving the 2006 election as disproving the widespread fraud: Statisticians have determined that if the 2006 election had been legitimate, Democrats would have gained an additional 25 more seats in the House!

    Perhaps Mark Crispin Miller’s delivery was not the best for those, especially Republicans, who were unfamiliar and therefore shocked and disbelieving, of the problem. Viewers might find “Witness to a Crime” author Richard Hayes Phillips easier to believe, as he witnessed evidence first hand, is not a professional, and comes across as very unassuming.

    No matter what the outcome of next week’s election, the vast disenfranchisement in our current voting system must be resolved to truly regain our democracy. Would it be a project you would be interesting in taking on: to try to involve the Carter Center, which monitors elections all over the world, in our U.S. election crisis? I have heard that they would not even monitor our elections if asked because THEY FAIL TO MEET THE MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR THE STRUCTURE OF FAIR ELECTIONS! This because of the lack of transparency in the electronic vote-counting, the inability to audit paperless ballots, and the use of highly partisan election officials!

    Thank you again and again for all of your wonderful work. You are truly a bright light in this sometimes darkening world. I look forward to hearing from you or your staff member re. pursuing this all-important issue of voting reform.

    The real issue isn't voter registration fraud but election fraud using e-voting machines. Please interview Bev Harris of and Clint Curtis, the million dollar programmer who was asked to write a program to flip the South Florida vote in 2000 and who's run for Congress in the Florida 24th district. You do a great job...but you need to dig deeper into this scandal. God bless you and give you courage.

    Bill, great job as usual, but the guy you should interview is Stephen Spoonamore, Republican, cyber-security expert who will explain very clearly why our voting system is un-fixable. Thanks for your work. We appreciate it.

    As a former computer programmer and software designer, I am deeply concerned when I hear a purported authority like Prof. Mark Crispin Miller say things like, "The fact is that they [optical scanners] are just as insecure, just as easily hack-able as the paperless machines."
    I am a Democrat and pretty Left-wing, and very concerned about the misbehavior by Republicans over the last few elections in terms of voter suppression and, potentially, for the future, of voter fraud. And, as a computer person, I am convinced that the paperless touch-screen voting machines are a disaster, and possibly a disaster without remedy. On the other hand, there is no notion of computer security, and no definition of "hack-able" that makes Prof. Miller's comment above anything other than utter nonsense. Either he is totally ignorant about computers, or he is engaged in pure demagoguery. A software hack could alter a vote for a touch-screen machine and leave no trace. Because the optical scanner cannot alter the physical paper ballot, the same sort of software hack is simply impossible. The ballot itself would be the trace. The paperless machines are much less secure.

    I was upset at seeing Bill Moyers brining up only the negative comments to Crispin Miller.

    Even David Earnhardt has mad a stunning documentary film about voter fraud, and the people shown inthe movie are often republicans.

    and how about the independent guy who did a similar documentary called

    for educational purposes. People who want to believe that the gOP wouldnt try all dirty tricks to win have no clue, and it s a famous Karl Rove tactic to plant some fake accusation that even the other side is doing the same, offering a few isolated examples.. just like the girl today who said she was assaulted by a black man at the bank.

    2006 may have been a much larger dem victory if the GOP wouldnt have successfully caged and purged many dem voters.

    just why dont you simply ask yourself why can't the voting machines give you a receipt for your vote? do you ever hear problems at the bank when you withdraw money? no.. or at the restaurant. order a coke and a side of fries, there comes a piece of paper right there and one inthe kitchen,

    never at the votes... hmm.. how interesting. Conspiracy is a word that has been associateted with "crazy" but that is exactly what they meant to do.

    I dont have a da*n problem believing that elections are stolen all the time in this country.. I mean even Katherine Harris fraudolent list of expanded felons to purge voters is a known fact.

    What does you all Amreicans take to read a little more instead of judging Crispin Miller who has hundreds of facts to make his claims, not just some hurt feelings by some of you out there.

    And what a shame for you Bill Moyers, for whom I always has such great respect, to leave the doubt ooen about how huge the problem of election fraud is.

    My daughter called me this am and told me she had been removed from the voting rolls in her city of Manhatten Beach. She has voted there for the past 4 years. She called the registrar and was told they had no record of her and would check into it. This is very disconcerting.

    Dear Mr. Moyers,

    I have watched your program for years. I am saddened to learn that so many people do not know how much voter fraud there was in Florida in 2000. And in so many other states.

    I had voted near my house or absentee for 10 years until the 2000 election. I arrived to vote and after the poll worker returned from making the fourth call to her supervisor I was informed that I had been remove this year because I had not voted in a minor election in the past 3 years. "That was not true," I had voted, but how could I prove it? I am a registered Democrat.

    Speaking with a friend in Fl, I learned she and her mom, the same year did not receive their absentee ballet in time to have it counted in that election.

    I don't believe that I or my friends were represented in the movie, "Recount."

    I now live in California and was told by a friend that she saw her primary ballot thrown into the trash. She went to 3 other polling places until she found her name on the book.She is registered Democrat.

    Another woman and her mom had been removed from the registration book where they had voted for years in California. Actually it was their family home. The grandmom was not removed from the same registration book, she is a registered Republican.

    When Florida purged me from their voting rolls I thought I was the only until I started telling everyone who would listen and learned that other people had lost their vote too.

    Voter Fraud! Yes I have experienced it.

    Best Gloria

    Terri Robson:

    I don't know where in Canada you live but where I live (British Columbia), the process of voting was extremely easy and without incident - took a whole 2 minutes. I had my registration card with me and two pieces of ID.
    The only thing I'd change is (as proposed elsewhere) provide secure Government issued picture ID to anyone requiring it, whether they have a fixed address or not, at no charge in order to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to register to vote. Of course they'd probably have to provide proof of citizenship but that's generally required before one can receive social assistance.
    The bottom line is, in Canada, any citizen can vote if they really want to do so.
    Followed the results in real time almost as soon as the polls closed. As usual, knew the outcome by 11 PM PST. What a country.

    Mr. Moyers,

    I have been a loyal fan of yours for decades and look forward to watching your program Friday nights here in middle Tennessee. I really appreciated your interview of Mark Crispin Miller last week, but I was disturbed by your follow-up comments this evening relating a story from Tennessee that three voters here had watched their votes for John McCain "flip" to Barack Obama.
    That story is not true, as you will see below.

    First some background. I am the organizer of an election integrity group here in Tennessee named Gathering To Save Our Democracy. Our group was responsible for organizing and hosting the 2005 National Election Reform Conference which brought together voting rights activists from 30 states to review the voluminous evidence for the 2004 stolen Presidential election and to begin collaborating to prevent it from happening again. Footage from our conference has appeared in a number of documentaries, including "Eternal Vigilance", "The Right to Count", "Murder, Spies and Voting Lies", "Stealing America: Vote by Vote" and (my favorite) "UNCOUNTED: The New Math of American Elections." (I would be happy to send you a copy of the last documentary if you haven't seen it.)

    In addition, our group led a successful three year fight in our state legislature to scrap the touch-screen voting machines and replace them with paper ballots, optical scan machines AND mandatory random manual audits of those paper ballots (something that Dr. Miller failed to mention in his interview as an effective check against opscan counting "glitches".) Our bill passed this year, with final votes of 32-0 in our Senate and 92-3 in our House. (Unfortunately, Republicans fought successfully to prevent the implementation of the TN Voter Confidence Act until 2010.)

    So it with this background that I decided to follow up on the "votes flip to Obama" story out of Decatur County. Here is what I found, and posted on Democratic Underground this afternoon:

    DREs may be nefarious BUT they are loyal -- TN "votes flipped to Obama" story debunked


    Lordy, I would give anything if the story publicized earlier this week on BradBlog and here -- that three voters in a rural Tennessee county using ES&S iVotronic DREs had witnessed their votes jump from McCain to Obama -- were true. Why? Because a story like that is so rare but, if true, it would affirm that electronic voting carries risks for all voters, not just "tin-foil-hat" Democrats. As we worked our TN Voter Confidence Act bill through our legislature (to ban DREs and move to paper ballots/random audits), it would have really helped us if there had been examples of Republicans being harmed by this equipment as often as Democrats, or at all. Unfortunately, my follow-up on the Tennessee story this morning proves to me what my OP title says: DREs may be nefarious BUT they are faithful -- to their Republican masters.

    Here's the link to an earlier thread on this story:

    I would strongly recommend that DUers also read the original story published in the Decatur County Chronicle (weekly, circulation 2,700, motto: "Blessed in the nation whose God is the Lord" (Psalm 33:12)) this past Tuesday. Here's the link:

    Here's what I learned in speaking with the local reporter and the Decatur County Election Registrar who was interviewed for the story:

    --- The newspaper learned about the story "... when the voters called the paper to report the vote flips from McCain to Obama". Or maybe it was a call from the two county election commissioners quoted in the story -- both Republican party members of the five person local commission -- one of whose father-in-law happens to be the newspaper publisher.

    --- The three voters who reported the vote-flips (but only to the newspaper -- they have still not contacted anyone at the Election Commission) were the mother, father-in-law and either cousin or uncle of the Decatur County Republican Party Chairman

    --- All four of them are in business with each other at the local sawmill.

    --- None of the aggrieved voters have listed phone numbers.

    --- When the Decatur County Election Registrar offered to call a county election commission meeting to discuss the vote-flipping incident, the Republican commissioners declined.

    --- Neither of the Republican commission members have been back to the county election commission office to file any formal complaint about the equipment or to ask that it be de-commissioned.

    --- When I spoke to one of the Republican county election commissioners myself, he described the three voters who reported vote-flipping as "rabid Republicans" who had likely been encouraged to "push" this story because of all of the coverage about ACORN.

    So folks -- I report, you decide. As for me, my initial skepticism has (sadly) been confirmed. What looked like a rare glimpse at bi-partisan harm caused by DREs has sadly been -- once again -- another debunked exception that reinforces the rule.

    When I finished my conversation with the county Election Registrar (who was completely open and helpful throughout our conversation) by saying "You know, when I heard this story, I smelled a fish. And it weren't fresh-caught", she said "Exactly."

    Folks, we've just witnessed a little bamboozlry on the banks of the Tennessee River, in a sleepy little backwoods county whose Republicans are as slimy as they are stupid. Their little attempt at small town psy-ops has plopped pathetically -- like poop from a dying pachyderm.

    Like the ACORN brou-ha-ha-ha-ha, this story has no merit.

    DREs may be nefarious BUT they are faithful.

    That's all folks.

    We have been swamped with fake stories in the last few weeks (fake plumber, fake assault victim with a "B" carved in her face, fake vote-flipping in backwater Tennessee). Given how sensational (and "man bites dog"ish) the TN vote-flipping story was, I was amazed to learn today that no one from the media (or from anywhere else) had bothered to call the principals to check on the story. Maybe journalism will be my next career, but I prefer to function as a citizen who occasionally has to "be the media". After all, someone has to.

    Thanks again for your good work, and please accept this correction as a cautionary tale. Sometimes, when voting machine "glitches" seem to finally be even-handed in their vote-flipping, it turns out to be a story that is too good to be true. Like this one.

    Bernie Ellis, Organizer
    Gathering To Save Our Democracy

    ID laws discriminate against poor plain and simple. If you want to require IDs to vote then it should be easily acceptable. Available for free and locations as common as a post office. They should be free. If you're a city dweller and/or working or working-poor why deviate the money to pay for a govt id every two to 4 years. Voter purge lists should be published at least 6 months prior to any election. Applying a hatchet to such a delicate right is immoral.

    Today with every possible transaction requiring some kind of photo ID, why would anyone not be required to present a photo ID to vote if voting security is a significant right not meant to be usurped by anyone else?

    As a personal rights, a personal ID should be required.

    I have never understood why the states control the federal election rules. There should be one national standard in place for federal offices,ie President, Senate etc. We now make everyone born in the US get a ss number that should automatically register you to vote on the appropriate birthday. Also, absentee ballots should not need postage for federal elections. What the states and local elections want to do with their rules should not affect the federal system. Any voter suppession should be a treasonous act and prosecuted.

    ID is important to avoid fraud.Dems will take advantage & have illigals vote.

    In Ohio, it was reported in the Rolling Stone and in Thom Hartmann's book "Screwed" how the Republicans cheated. See

    So we're protecting the sanctity of the voting process by requiring photo I.D. Big deal. So some well-meaning law-abiding citizen forgets to bring it, he gets marginalized; while the illegal alien who has a fake ID gets to cast his vote. Yeah, real protection there.

    Where we need to start is elected officials. Have them barred from tampering with the process - by gunpoint at necessary. Make it a treasonous crime to tamper with the election process. Have the penalty be due process, then firing squad. People would be much less lackadaisical about cheating.

    Voting machines are being investigated all over, and the answers the designers are coming up with are comical. Static Electricity. Virus protection:
    This kind of thing needs to stop. Take the power of elections out of the hands of corporations and give it back to the people.

    Stuffing ballot boxes is not the issue. Making laws that cull voters who vote for one party or the other. Designing voting machines that cast votes for one candidate over another no matter which one is really selected. Setting up roadblocks to stop blacks from voting. Rezoning voter zones. And of course, setting up shills (I'm talking about you: O'Reilly, Limbaugh) to lie about liberals.

    It's the Republicans. Every one of them needs to be rounded up and shot for treason. Let them prove their worthiness to us for a change. If they can't? Bye!

    The final firewall against fraud is the exit poll on voting day MUST confirm the voting day results. We can't have another replay of zogby, abc, nbc etc. all trying to explain away why their exit surveys didn't correlate. They must sample rigorously and statistically meaningful through the full poll operation and produce a credible result for secondary confirmation of election results.

    We in Canada face the same problem. You are issued a voter registration card to your address that does NOT constitute identification,you need two other pieces of address information and then you swear an oath,we are in the midst of having a N. America identification system imposed upon us,it will have RDIF chips so that we citizens can be more monitored. I believe that preventing citizens from voting is a human rights/civil liberties issue and should be addressed as such. Due to this issue of indentification cards that are already in the works with a proto type we will not be able to stop this tide of military industrial complex rule of law that has taken over the Gov. of US;Canada and in Mexico of course it was always there.Wonder how the Mexicans will react when they have will be forced into the same identification laws that we face. The only thing drastically wrong with the current system is the people who are in charge of it.Demcocracy is worth fighting for,and the right to vote is paramount for Democracy to succeed. What is needed it seems are MORE places tht a peson can vote,there is no reason more polls could not be set up,so that the flow of people is steady and perhaps citizens will not have to stand in line for hours in order to fullfill their democratic civic duty.

    Check out Elections Canada. In Canada if you are canadian you have the right to vote. simple as that. Elections Canada sends everyone who is listed on the roll a card telling them where and when to vote. Ads are placed in newspapers and on radio and tv saying that if you didn't get a card, contact Elections canada and you will be put on the list. Polling clerks are trained to do everything possible to insure you get to vote.Your system would be laughable if the consequences weren't so serious. You had eight years to correct things and you failed. we vote on paper ballots. we hand count the votes with witnesses (scrutineers, one scrutineer from each party is allowed for each polling station). You have to get away from having your corrupt county officials deciding who gets to vote in your federal elections.

    I can't get the video to play. It plays for a few minutes and then stops. My connection at other sites is fine, so it's not that. HELP.

    To whom it may concern,
    This is not a politics as usual election.
    The Republicans are a threat to the preservation of our nation.
    They are undermining our constitution, our quality of life, our Democratic system, our world reputation and our personal freedoms.

    I think we may finally have an issue that everyone can agree on, at least in part - our current voting laws and standards are wholly inadequate to manage the task assigned to them.

    Given that our right to vote is perhaps the most important and fundamental right we have, both as a nation and as individuals, I believe that there is only one place to solve this issue - through an amendment to the US constitution.

    Our state legislature passed a bill to "Reform" our election laws. I always shudder when I hear an elected official talk about "Reform". In Mississippi a signature is all you need to present to vote. The only time identification is required is when you register to vote. I don't believe that any elections would be won or lost by people creating mischief with signatures. Government uses identification to control voters and suppress voting. The more rules there are the greater the opportunity there is for the massive voter fraud that was perpetrated in 2000 and 2004. The people I've worked with at the polls are honest and hard working people who struggle to do things fairly and be treated fairly. Let's give our democracy back to the ordinary citizens who work so hard to preserve it.

    No. A mere voter's signature is appropriate. ID requirements are simply voter suppression strategies advocated by the Republican crooks and liars who must now compete in local, state and national elections by devious means because they have lost any credibility in a fair dispute about public interest issues like the government's role and justice including meet the needs of every human being.

    Mr. Moyers forgets to ask the obvious questions and college-educated voters continue to think the Obama candidacy is something other than Karl Rove's ultimate swiftboat ad.

    Mr. Miller's downplaying of the Acorn scandal, for example, defies reason. He parrots the standard line that Acorn supervisors flagged all bad registrations and notified authorities when delivering the forms. If this were true, rogue employees would have been weeded out and fired on their second day of work. that logic flies in the face of reality - some 20-30 percent of allsubmitted forms are bogus.

    In fact, the inclusion of so many registrations on a state's voter database - as Jennifer Brunner well knows - will allow precinct tallies in Democratic areas to be massively inflated by the machine hackers - thus insuring an Obama win in enough key swing states to throw the election.

    It's deplorable that progressives have shrunk to this level of gullibility. It seems that even an endorsement from Colin "Here are the WMD's" Powell is insufficient to counteract the effects of the Kool-aid.

    Like Sen. Clinton, Sarah Palin offers the best chance for reclaiming democracy and human rights in the world with their election. Unfortunately, the left has demonstrated that ridiculing and humiliating women candidates - regardless of party - takes priority over advancing the cause of social justice.

    Ignorance will not be an excuse later.

    Re: Miller interview, Oct. 17, 2008

    1. Miller misses the point that ONLY the optical scan preserves the original ballot. This makes possible a MANUAL RECOUNT in case of challenge. It may take a court order to get this, but it provides a clear path to an accurate result.

    2. Everyone should check his or her own registration status at
    vpa.[state].gov where [state] is the postal abbreviation for the state. If your name has been deleted from the rolls, you may still have time to challenge.

    3. If registration at the polls on Election Day is permitted in your state, a simple precaution is to take with you to the polls the documentation required to register. A photo-ID showing your current address maybe enough. It the address on the ID isn't current, then also take written proof of residence, such as ar recent utility bill or bank statement.

    This guy is a clown and a jackass who indicts the Republican Party for disenfranchising "MILLIONS OF VOTERS" WITH NO PROOF AND NO APPOSITE VOICE AT THE TABLE SAYING 'HALT'. This program is amateurish. It is nothing but agitprop. You cannot have someone slamming a political party without evidence.

    You seem to forget it is the Obama backed group ACORN that is uner federal investigation for voter registration fraud.

    Thanks for having Professor Miller on your show. It's way past time that the conduct of our elections be taken seriously. And who knew--based on the comments--that Moyers Journal could draw such a politically "diverse" audience.

    The canary in the coalmine here has been, and will continue to be, the exit polls. We are expected to believe that Americans are the only folks on the planet too stupid to conduct exit polls properly. The "flip" from Kerry to Bush in Ohio in 2004 was greater than 11% when comparing the initial exit polls with the alleged vote counts. This is way outside any margin of error and should have been an alarm that vote fraud had taken place. It would have been in any other country on the planet. This Bush-leaning trend repeated itself in almost all the battleground states. The statistical probability of all the "errors" falling this way without some help is pretty much impossible. And none of the so-call explanations pass the giggle test.

    The 2000 exit polls calling Florida for Gore and the 2004 exit polls calling Ohio for Kerry were correct.

    Sitting in the White House is worth billions of dollars to the corporations whose bank accounts you can expand with your policies and actions. If you think--particularly given the conduct of the wingnuts who've run the country into the ground the past 7 plus years while trying to enrich their buddies--that spending a couple of million--or less--to steal the Oval Office just couldn't happen, you're way past naive.

    Thankfully, the good folks over at Velvet Revolution appear to have the thieves on the run. Their Rove Cybergate investigation is heating up and so far they've gotten the courts to back them up.

    Thanks again. I'd like to see more on this very important subject on future shows.

    concerning voter verification:

    yes, we should have photo voter ID.

    I heard a Republican come up with the idea and I think its a good one. The ID would be inexpensive and available everywhere passports are available (like the post office).

    Anarcho - Republican:

    It would be to all democrats disadvantage to have 'chaos at the polls' as you put it.

    I can only surmise from your post that you have some inside information on a Republican effort to cause 'chaos at the polls' which is seriously sick.

    Are Republicans afraid of democracy or something?

    Can they not win without dirty tricks?

    why is it that Obama is leading everywhere except places like Ohio? Could it be Republicans trying to set themselves up to steal another election?

    Montana, New Mexico or Ohio. I wonder where the scene of the crime will be this time.

    RE: Gladdie’s “final” post
    “Last night I had a dream about reality. It was such a relief to wake up.” By Stanislaw Lec. To all the folks having the “correct” take on reality at the Figgers Instantoot, we will miss your self righteous posts.

    I am somewhat disappointed that a respected journalist like Mr Moyers would help lend any credibility to such dubious assertions...I suppose by default the only legitimate elections are those won by Democrats...Will all these cries of Republican election fraud be catagorically retracted once Senator Obama wins?...
    What is interesting is Mr. Miller's insistence that everyone (even folks you have already early voted) show up at the polls in mass "to protect our rights", bring cameras etc...when Mr. Moyers asked several times what would be accomplished by this sort of action? Mr. Miller didn't really give a compelling answer...I think I may have discovered an interesting link.

    Word on the street is Ex-employees of ACORN have suggested it is an ACORN strategy to overload the election systems with an onslaught of fraudlent registrations and then cause their usual street action chaos at polling places...Chaos being the historical friend of ACORN

    you heard it here for it on election day.

    How is it that the intelligentsia of this country (as well as more than just a few voters) are aware of proof of elections having been stolen and yet no one has ever been held accountable? Have we become such a nation of sheep? Are we that afraid of our own leaders? What good is democracy when it's just a facade and you don't even have the very right for which so many have lived and died...

    Great show? No, just another scoop of the same horsesh*t.
    George H.- You are most likely correct that McCain-Palin will be proclaimed the winner with 55% of the popular vote and a slight plurality of electoral votes. All American elections are rigged in one way or another these days which makes a mockery of hope for democracy. The United States governmental system was born so deformed by sacredness of great property and elite contract that it could never achieve a viable democratic existence. As it grew it became a monster terrorizing the planet.
    Figgers had a final meeting Saturday and our vote was unanimous to drop our ISP and all interaction with the Supercommercial Superhighway and never to watch Moyers or read and post on this blog again. Like voting, it is a waste of time and another false hope. Change would not be forthcoming even if Barack Obama and other Democrats were elected. Bill Moyers does not represent change, but is primarily a salesperson at a book fair. Real benevolent change would undermine the people he serves and admires. Grady Lee Howard was correct in calling him a hostage. His captive days will accumulate until memory of him vanishes. We are not interested in paying his ransom.

    It does not matter if 9/11 was an inside job, if the anthrax attacks were also, if MLK and RFK and JFK died by conspiracies, if AIDS is a designer disease. What does matter is that the public has serious questions about a number of things that are not being addressed and that everyone is intimidated to demand answers by the threat of state terrorism. In the cases of falsified intelligence for war in Iraq, and major voting manipulation in 2000 and 2004, the facts are in, and still no one has the courage to act. No one in power has the courage to go beyond academic accusations and arrest the real felons. Certainly these are partisan issues with terrorists, bullies and fearful ass-kissers deployed to obstruct justice. Some of these operatives call themselves conservative or Republican.
    Other allies of repression call themselves Democrats.
    We at Figgers call ourselves evolved. We are beyond this bickering. If we vote we keep our choices to ourselves, as intended in a mature democracy. We cannot help it if our votes are not properly counted. There seems nothing we can do about it, and all these other blatant injustices, so it is not our fault. We have to go on living and advocating what we think are benevolent and meaningful activities. There are only so many days in a life and so many hours in a day. One would be better off reading and discussing with a friend face to face, or pursuing a valued art or craft than being sucked into the sickness of PBS public affairs. We have decided Moyers Journal is entertainment and not effective in changing things. As proof we have seen no evidence of it as a point of organization or meaningful action. Most of the posters are self-interested, and at best complacent cowards. There can never be any effective march on Washington or any other action because of the deference to power and wealth, and the precious fear of violent state terrorism Moyers instills in his audience. In this way he is typical of all American media.

    We admit a quandry of method in a society where to dispute the economic system is to advocate for one's own material advancement, and where to empower the spiritual is to play into the motives of the heartless, the unscrupulous and the sadistic.
    We leave this blog for other posters not as radicalized who need a comforting fiction that someone cares and hope is on the way. We've simply lost faith in another false religion and the tepid persona of Bill Moyers. Goodbye and good luck in the pending Deluge. Figgers Institute, Beret Co-op and the allied community are dissolved and dispersed. As individuals you will hear about us before you hear from us. So long correspondents.... Au revoir and thanks Sumatra Persimmon...

    Jack Martin
    Coley Whitesides
    Grady Lee Howard

    Great show Mr. Moyers. I am a Christian who voted twice for President Bush, so a couple years ago I would have rationalize to myself that you Liberals are just whining again. But now instead of turning a blind eye, I can clearly see that tampering with voting machines is a crime no matter if you are a Republican or a Democrat.

    I used to be like a cow in a herd, which ever way I was told to go, I went. But what woke me up was the torturing of those poor innocent Iraqis. Sure a prisoner or two may have had some actionable information, but what about the hundreds who were innocent? What our soldiers did, and what their/our leaders encouraged them to do was the final straw for me. At first I did not want to believe it, but when I heard on the news that Mr. Rumsfeld had authorized this torture it felt as if someone I love had died. Once again, I could believe it, not the USA. This probably hit me so hard because I used to be in the military and I remember how important the Geneva Convention agreements were. I was always under the impression that if I was ever captured by an enemy these agreements would protect me from any abuse. Now if the Iraqis were to capture one of our guys, will they abuse him/her? I am worried for our soldiers, I hope they all come home safely.

    Now that my eyes are open, I can see that since George W. Bush is the President of the United States, he is ultimately responsible for this torturing, not to mention the economy. When President Bush was campaigning in 2000, he said he was a Compassionate Conservative, it is too bad that it took me two elections to discover that he is neither compassionate nor conservative.

    I search on “Mark Crispin Miller” at youtube and found a video called “Programming the Nation.” Now I am beginning to wonder if the Republican Party had hypnotized me. They fooled more than once, so shame on me.

    Without falling back to reconstruction and the Jim Crowe Laws, these laws had a litney of several 'tests' to insure blacks didn't vote. I would expect at least an ID. If you ever intend to participate in any event such as travelling on an airplane or purchasing a shirt, you need ID to verify who you are. This doesn't come close to Jim Crowe. Terrible article.

    The Acorn story is myth, and the dual threats of limited access and machine management are not.

    Laws requiring ID to vote is unnecessary. In Washington State - at least where I have lived - you have to go to the polling place, find your precinct, and then sign your name where your address appears on the list. There is no doubt who you were if there is a recount.

    Now Washington is moving towards mail-in ballots - an unfortunate move in terms of community and civic pride. The county where I live is totally mail-in. If you do not receive a ballot when they go out, you absolutely have be here to look into it.

    A purging program was tried here, but people compared notes, and it was stopped. That is the reason for being alert!

    Still I am bothered by what may or may not happen from the time I mail my ballot through the actual count. I feel fairly confident, but I can easily imagine unfortunate scenarios.

    If we cannot feel secure about voting, what is left?


    Onca again, we are treated to the Keith Olbermann brand of "journalism". Moyers refused to bring on somebody who could have easily rebutted Miller's list of lies and lunacy. Miller is no patriot; he lies and spouts moonbat conspiracy theories that not even Mother Jones magazine will endorse.

    The only stolen election that might have occurred recently was the Washington state gubernatorial race. That's it. Bush won. Kerry lost. Gore lost. That is the truth. That is the fact.


    If you go to MCM's profile on the Moyers' website,
    you'll find these links about how to protect your vote and check to make sure you're still registered:

    Election Protection, a non-partisan coalition, offers another online resource for voter education and protection through an informational Web site and an election hot-line (1-866-OUR-VOTE). They also offer a useful voting-checklist flyer you can print out and bring with you to the poll.

    The Election Protection voting checklist:

    Be sure you are properly registered.
    Most states require voters to register in advance of an election (though some allow voters to register on Election Day). Deadlines range from 3 to 30 days before an election. To find out if you are properly registered, confirm your address, obtain a copy of a voter registration form, or learn about registration deadlines in your state, call 866-OUR-VOTE or, for more information about registration rules in your state go to

    Be sure you go to the correct polling place.
    In many states, if you vote at the wrong location, your vote will not be counted. If you are unsure exactly where to vote, find your polling location by calling 866-OUR-VOTE or by going to

    Find out your options for convenient voting.
    Many states allow individuals to vote prior to Election Day, either in person or by absentee ballot. Absentee voters typically must request an absentee ballot in advance. To learn about the options in your state, including how to obtain an absentee ballot, visit, or call 866-OUR-VOTE.

    Find out if you are required to show ID.
    Every state has identification requirements for at least some categories of voters. Find out the rules for your state by visiting, or calling 866-OUR-VOTE.

    MCM states very clearly in the beginning of the interview that yes both Dems and repubs have resorted to "stealing elections" over the decades but that in the past 8 years, all the "stealing" has favored the GOP and continues to favor the GOP. There seems no stopping them and now of course they are accusing the Dems via nonprofit organizations of "voter fraud" which is really ridiculous because so few actual cases of imposter voters have been caught. ACORN's "crime" is to have conducted a successful registration drive for low income and minority citizens and the GOP despises elections with large turnouts of low income and minorities since they favor Democrat voters.

    again thank you PBS and bill moyers for having MCM on your show inspite of incurring the wrath of rightwingers who deny that any election theft has ever taken place in 2000/2002/2004/2006.

    I listened to the Bill Moyers program today. I got the impression that one could get information on the PBS web site on how one could verify that your vote would not be tampered by someone at the election station. Our voting system uses a paper ballot which is read and counted electronicly. I did not find information on how to do this. Did I miss something?


    National voting holiday +
    purple fingers + hand-counted paper ballots at the precinct level = return of democratic elections

    I dropped McCain who is Palin in comparison to the Obamination who is Biden their time to avoid debating Nader.

    Vote Nader or None of the Above.

    Replace all of the incumbents.

    Paid trolls? what a hoot!
    Sure the McCain Campaign can't afford to compete with Obama's TV Ads, but the Republicans have the funds to hire "trolls" to disrupt Bill Moyers PBS blog...liberal paranoia knows no bounds...pitiful but hilarious

    What is interesting is Mr. Miller's insistence that everyone (even folks you have already early voted) show up at the polls in mass "to protect our rights", bring cameras etc...when Mr. Moyers asked several times what would be accomplished by this sort of action? Mr. Miller didn't really give a compelling answer...I think I may have discovered an interesting link.

    Word on the street is Ex-employees of ACORN have suggested it is an ACORN strategy to overload the election system and cause their usual chaos at polling places...Chaos being the historical friend of ACORN

    you heard it hear first...

    Lael, I respect your effort at even-handedness here, but I find the evidence of widespread voter suppression quite credible. The best overview that I have seen is an article by R. Kennedy, Jr in Rolling Stone (google search should locate it). Highly footnoted, substantive. Why it was not carried in more mainstream circles is utterly baffling to me. But accusations of "non-credibility" do not seem to hold up in this case.

    To Barbara:

    Thanks for your reply to my post, however I am not an angry right wing commentator or a paid troll. I am a woman graduate of Harvard and Berkeley with a Ph.D. in Physics and have been involved in research my entire career. As I stated, I am a left of center Democrat. I generally find the far left and right conspiracy theories to be ridiculous rantings of those who, though they want to exercise their power, give it up because they view all situations as "fixed" by some powerful entity or entities that keep the rest of us little people subject to their corruption. I don't deny that there are bad folks and unfortunately, they are sometimes in high places but election fraud on the scale that Miller proposes (as well as the citation you give) is not supported by credible investigations. We would all be better off if we dropped our paranoia and got off our duffs and worked for the better world we say we want.

    Though Miller does accuse Repubs of more serious voter fraud, that does not prove that he is biased. To me, it suggests he has a good grasp of reality. In this particular case (voter fraud), the facts simply do not support the assertion that "both sides" are equally guilty.

    I’ll address a couple of responses to my earlier posts (made Saturday, October 18, approximately 11:00 Eastern Time):

    To Linda j:
    I had to look up “troll”. I knew it was a mythical character that hangs out under a bridge, but wasn’t quite sure what it meant in the context of the Internet. Wikipedia gives this: “An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.”

    I do not believe that my posts were off topic; they specifically addressed points made by Professor Miller.

    They may or may not generate an emotional response, but that was not my motivation. My motivation was to challenge some of the ideas that Miller presented (I support others that he made).

    If it is disruptive to post a contrary view, then I plead, “Guilty as charged”, but I thought that blogs existed to exchange a variety of viewpoints -- except, of course, in highly partisan echo chambers. Based on this last standard perhaps Wikipedia would categorize me as a troll since it is true that I posted a contrary view.

    In my search for definitions I also found reference to “paid trolls”, apparently meaning people who submit posts for some sort of payment, or because they are professional political operatives. I do work completely unrelated to politics to make a living, so that’s not true in my case. I did compose my posts in advance on Word. After spell checking and grammar checking them a bit, I then copy/pasted them into the blog post form. If, because they seemed edited, you thought that these posts were from a paid professional, then thanks -- I appreciate the compliment.

    To Bruce Jensen:
    After reading your post I read about the views of David Iglesias, including the transcript of his interview on the PBS program NOW. If the evidence in those past cases in New Mexico did not support prosecution, then I take him at his word, and think that he was justified in not going forward with indictments. If the Bush Administration brought inappropriate pressure on him to move forward anyway, then I agree that Iglesias was correct and the administration was wrong. But I do not think that this in any way refutes the point that I made in my earlier post.

    I wasn’t thinking about statements by the Bush Administration. I was focusing mainly on the statements of the many voter registration officials across the country who are saying the same thing – that a high percentage of voter registration forms submitted by Acorn appear to be invalid. I know that this is not what Acorn’s leaders say, but I think that one needs to consider more than just their statements. In the popular media Acorn’s statements are very often presented as the final word on the subject.

    By the way, I am in full agreement with the basic objective behind most of what Professor Miller advocates. Illegal or excessively aggressive attempts to block valid voter registrations should be opposed and stopped. I am just as intolerant of illegal and overly aggressive tactics coming from the right as I am of such tactics coming from the left.

    If there is any true legacy from the last 8 years, it is that we can not trust the system. From the war, to the economy, to the vote, to global warming, spin and disinformation abound. "Trust me" has the ring of a used car salesman, selling me a Katrina car. As far as the ballot and everything else, I agree with Reagan: "Trust but verify."

    To: LAEL

    It is truly amazing how many angry rightwing commentators have condemmed MCM here on this blog. Some of you are known as "paid trolls" who routinely populate blogs with this sort of crap to make it seem like the Rush Limbaugh's are the majority of the people (they are not).

    The Dems DID NOT SWEEP 2006. in fact they should have won more congressional and senate races than they did to truly qualify for a sweep. WHY? The majority of the races the Dems lost in 2006 was because of vote rigging/manipulation.

    why don't you do more homework and learn more about the GOP election fraud?
    here's a brief summary and link for you regarding the rigged elections in 2006:

    Election Defense Alliance researchers Jonathan Simon and Bruce O'Dell studied the 2006 results and found that there was a net shift of at least three million votes away from the Democratic candidates in the 2006 elections for the House of Representatives. The Democratic victory margin was shaved by 4% according this highly persuasive analysis.

    Simon and O'Dell conclude:

    "there was gross vote count manipulation [that] had a great impact on the results of E2006, significantly decreasing the magnitude of what would have been, accurately tabulated, a [Democratic] landslide of epic proportions."


    read and weep because this will happen again in Nov 2008.

    McCain has already been promised the presidency by the powerful GOP powers that be.

    I generally very much enjoy Bill Moyers program as he presents a fair and balanced view on most issues. If his guest is not fair, Mooyers challenges them. I was appalled at last night's program with "Prof." Miller. His views were so slanted and biased that I found myself totally turned off by him. Of course, there is election fraud, but he seems to want us to believe that what the Dems do is inconsequential and that the Republicans are stealing every election. Also, his sneery contorted face and hate filled declarations were an insult to Moyers. If the Republicans are committing so much fraud then why did the Dems sweep in 2006?

    Mr. Miller needs to get psychiatric help. I am a moderate left of center Democrat but I am tired of the toxic partisanship that we see in the media daily. Bill Moyers should be ashamed of himself to have let this nut rant and rave as he did.

    As a voting poll inspector here in California, I must advise anyone with a camera not to take pictures or video inside a precinct. For the state of California, a person taking photos/video to confirm voter fraud, must be over 100 feet, again, 100 feet away from the physical site of the precinct. The person recording such facts will indeed be breaking California laws on election day should they be less than 100 feet away from the physical site of the voting polls. That said, it is with permission, from all inside the voting precinct, legal to watch the voting process inside the precinct(s). Cameras inside a voting precinct are touchy at best. It is best to take a photo after the fact, with a sticker stating you have just voted, about 100 feet away from the voting site.

    Please get out and vote. If you do see any irregularities happening on 11/04/2008, inform the Voting Poll Inspector immediately. They will inform their higher ups - for me that means my Roving Inspector, and the Police if necessary. Best of luck to the candidates. My they, this time, be elected honestly, Republican or Democrat.

    Sid Stromsdorfer, El Cerrito, CA

    Whether Democrat or GOP you should watch 2 movies documentaries done by independents.

    then watch youtube extracts from the doc "uncounted the movie".

    Those of you who spend too much time watching sports and drinking cheap beer should take a few minutes to base their opinions on facts and not by Sarah Palins hatefilled BS.

    Anyone who is a true American, not those who wrap themselves in the flag or claim their God is better than anyone else's, will find true that your vote is all there is to call yourself free and Democratic, and that vote has to be able to be audited at any time

    Politicians petty down;
    Wall Street pigs on, and on;
    Voters pretend democracy...

    Wall Street banks in $70bn staff payout
    Pay and bonus deals equivalent to 10% of US government bail-out package
    Comments (2199)
    Simon Bowers
    The Guardian, Saturday October 18 2008

    Thanks so much for having Mark on your show. This is a much under reported issue and the conversation in main stream media is long overdue. With more time allowed, Mark can answer a number of the questions raised in the above comments, as well as provide bushels of evidence from the Floriday election of 2000, Ohio in 2004 and much more to back up his assertions.

    I don't know what the answer is , but it is clear to me that something has to be done to protect our votes . Too many problems exsist with the current state run systems that don't address or create problems themselves . It is very scarey to think that our elections can be bought and sold . I agree this issue has been virtually ignored and we all must take it upon ourselves to get involved . Thank you so much for educating us a little more on this very important issue .

    It shows they are in total control. They grabbed 700 billion because they were skint, now they pay themselves 70 billion. They don't care what the suckers think.

    Who's their very favourite politician ?

    Top Contributors Obama
    Goldman Sachs $739,521
    University of California $697,506
    Harvard University $501,489
    Citigroup Inc $492,548
    Google Inc $487,355
    JPMorgan Chase & Co $475,112
    National Amusements Inc $432,169
    Microsoft Corp $429,656
    UBS AG $419,550
    Lehman Brothers $391,774


    Merrill Lynch $349,170
    Citigroup Inc $287,801
    Morgan Stanley $249,377
    Goldman Sachs $220,045
    JPMorgan Chase & Co $206,392
    AT&T Inc $183,663
    Credit Suisse Group $175,503

    Miller is on point regarding ID laws, but fails to understand the essence of election reform. Yes we must watch out for front end shenanigans, but we must keep our eyes on the "ball" which is the vote tabulation process. We the people must demand the removal of all secret software code and mandate open source/ paper ballot systems.

    One thing we truly need to break the logjam of partisan politics is to institute Instant Runoff Voting.

    How can we institute it when we can't even handle a winner take all ballot?

    I've been intrigued by the thought expressed by Greg Palast in Armed Madhouse. Everywhere you go in America, if you buy something, you get a receipt. You buy a slurpee, you get a receipt. How come when you vote you can't get a receipt that validates the choices you just made and allows you to correct a mistake if need be?

    I have no problem with an ID requirement. I do have a problem with an ID requirement that is restrictive enough that it disenfranchises significant numbers of legitimate voters. An ID requirement that is biased in its disenfranchisement is simply a new form of Jim Crow -- it's evil.

    Mr. North seems totally unaware of the fact that David Iglesias has blown the whistle on the trumped-up nature of the Bush Justice Department's attack on Acorn. He and others were fired because they would not prosecute insignificant voter registration cases like the ones the McCain campaign has made such an issue of with the help of Fox News, CNN and others.

    It is Mr. North who needs to do a bit of research.

    The "theft of 2000" was not in the aftermath (the "few hundred votes"), it was in the voter purge before the election that selected names, most of whom were legitimate voters, based upon prison populations, which are racially and economically unlike the population at large. This introduced a tens of thousands of voters bias into the Florida election of 2000. Mission accomplished.

    Democrats in Congress are holding the cards. They can restore confidence in the voting system by returning to the Capitol and demanding that Justice Department officials testify about the alleged ACORN investigation in front of the House Judiciary Committee.

    Thank you for finally airing the issue which is destroying what's left of our democracy- secret vote counting on privately controlled computers. One can hardly think of anything more anti-democratic and yet MSM has for years downplayed and misreported on this critical issue, lulling people into a false sense of security that they are still sovereign citizens, choosing their government. Mark Crispin Miller was a lone voice for too long and deserves recognition for his tireless efforts to speak the horror which this criminal element in the republican party have exploited, while decent republicans and democrats alike refuse to acknowledge.

    Perhaps you might consider interviewing cyber security expert and long time republican, Stephen Spoonamore,, who has become a whistle blower because he understands Americans must put country and democracy before party. Or Clint Curtis, also once a republican, whose decency and those values we think we believe in as Americans, caused him to expose the scheme to rig voting software in Florida.

    Of course whistle blowers are only as effective as the media that reports the information they provide, at great threat to their personal liberty but in the name of that which we aspire to. That is why it is so important that Bill Moyers and PBS were willing to finally report on the loss of a democratic electoral system in the United States-- All but NYS vote on concealed vote counting software. NY is the only state that still votes in a transparent, secure, reliable system, schedule to die the death of the electric car unless New Yorkers resist now, while we still have our levers. See NY's Election Transparency Coalition's efforts to stop secret vote counting in NY, , and sign the Petition to save our lever voting system.

    Professor Miller vehemently states, “Filling out voter registration forms dishonestly to pick up a couple of bucks, which is the Acorn volunteers have done, is not voter fraud!” Oh really? If that’s not fraud, what is? He tries to make a technical distinction that it is not voter fraud until someone identifying himself as Mickey Mouse actually shows up on election day and tries to vote. Perhaps submitting a bogus registration form is not voter fraud by his strict definition, but it surely must be categorized as some sort of election fraud. Would he insist that this be distinguished as “registration fraud”? Does such hair splitting really matter?

    Professor Miller also stated with absolute certainty that Acorn catches all of the fictitious voter registration forms themselves, and reports them to the voter registration authorities. I think that he needs to do some more research. Registrars across the country report finding thousands of questionable or obviously bogus forms that Acorn has submitted as not flagged as bogus. To give just one example out of many that I found with a quick search on Google, here’s an excerpt from the Times of Munster, IN ( “Lake County elections officials acknowledged they have found problems and had to reject a large portion of the 5,000 registration forms turned in recently by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN. . . “ These forms were not flagged by Acorn as bogus when they were submitted. If he wants to be credible, he needs to do more extensive fact checking of his arguments. There is too much evidence available to the contrary on this point.

    In his October 17th appearance on the show, Professor Miller twice he stated that he opposes both illegal and legal challenges to voter registration. I listened to these portions of the video several times, and he makes no distinction between the two. I think that we all can agree that illegal tactics to try to purge voter rolls of voters must be opposed and stopped. However, his apparent advocacy of stopping legal procedures hurts his credibility as a commentator on this subject.

    Mark Crispin Miller, proposed that a “very large gathering of people” show up at polling places, even if they have already voted absentee, to make sure that the 2008 election is not stolen from them the way he believes that the 2000 election was. Given the intense fear that he displays, I can see how he might have come up with the idea, but he needs to think this through. What are the possible results of having a very large number of untrained, angry people milling around inside and outside the polling place with video cameras on election day?

    One result might be that the designated election observers, including observers from his own side, may be distracted from effectively doing their job of monitoring what is happening at the site.

    Another might be that timid voters from both sides might shy away from approaching the polling place when they see this crowd, many carrying video cameras. Many people fear angry crowds, and many simply do not like to have video cameras pointed at them, no matter what they are doing.

    Who knows what the behavior of some of these very large groups of people might be? Will they start looking over the shoulders of voters as they make their decisions in the voting booths? Will they do this using the video cameras that have been provided to them? Wouldn’t this make a mockery of the concept of a secret ballot?

    In some of these crowds will participants resort to physical intimidation to discourage voters from the other side from casting their vote? Professor Miller might not plan on this, but remember that this is an untrained, undisciplined “very large gathering” of people that he is encouraging to show up. Some might use the term mob to describe such a group.

    Behaviors like these could actually cause international election observers to declare that, in some locations, our election was not truly “free and fair”, placing us in the same category with emerging democracies all over the world where the voting process is so seriously flawed that it scarcely exists.

    Given his intense fears, one can understand why Professor Miller wants something done. But his proposal would just make matters worse. His objectives will better be realized by getting trained election observers to the polling places in sufficient numbers do their job, and keep the polling place a calm and orderly environment that neither jeopardizes the secrecy of ballots nor intimidates and discourages voters.

    I appreciate that Mr Moyers had Mark Crispin Miller on his program.

    I am an Ohio resident who worked on the near east side of Columbus Ohio on Nov 4, 2004. I witnessed first hand how low income Af Am precincts where misallocated voting machines resulting in 5 hour waits while in my nearby 95+% white precinct there was a 15 min line at the height of morning rush and no lines in the afternoon. I was so appalled at this travesty that I closed my small business to work on the issue of restoring fairness, transparency and verifiability to elections. The GOP has turned our elections into a mockery of democracy.

    Based on a conversation I had with one of our election officials in a casual setting and an unguarded moment, I am absolutely convinced that this official and the whole office are biased and corrupt. I am certain that this person, at least, will be doing everything she can to give the election to her preferred party. I will be mailing in my ballot, but I'd like to verify that my vote will be counted and not tossed in the shredder, but how do I go about this? I've been looking for some method of verifying that the my mail in vote will be counted without having to trust anyone at my elections office, but every method I've heard involves trusting them to some extent. I live in Colorado, which is up for grabs, so I expect my vote to really mean something, assuming it's counted. Any ideas?

    The guiding principle should be: If an election can be stolen, it will be stolen.

    Well folks, under our current "system," elections can be stolen.

    We must secure our electoral system. Our Democracy demands no less.

    Biased, myopic, tunnel vision from Mr. Miller causes one to doubt any thing he says.

    The DNP denied the democratics in Florida & Michigan their rights to have votes count in selecting the Club's, or PARTY's candidate!
    That is millions, Mr. Miller! MILLIONS!

    He sounds like one of those lawyers defending a rapist that blames the victum!

    His democratic party would not let Ralph Nader & others debate! Talk about supression!

    The two party system has NOT served our country as many seem to accept!

    Billy Bob, Florida where Mr. Miller & party denied our nomination-election rights

    It's inexcusable that the various states do not have an integrated voter registration system. People move frequently and may have current registrations in more than one state. Is it also possible for someone who owns homes in more than one state to vote more than once—consider the possibilities for New Yorkers who have condos in Florida, for example. Absentee registration makes lots of things possible. In some states that don't have a centralized registration database, it's even possible for people to vote in more than one county in the same election. For starters, yes--voters should present a government-issued photo ID when they arrive at a polling place. But our entire system demands an overhaul. This shouldn't be too difficult; we can start by looking at what other "advancd" countries do to ensure a legitimate election. This also holds true for counting the votes: countries like Canada and Germany count the votes by hand. This can take a week or more—but they announce winners immediately, based on exit polls, which they find to be fully reliable. Peculiarly, only in the US can exit polls not be relied upon. Instead, we're being forced by the federal government to rely on voting machines, and these have been shown over and over again to be amenable to tampering and fraud. Surely we can do better--but will we? Seems as if too many people on all sides like our system just as it is.

    Hey Linda,

    It seems someone broke into ACORN's Boston branch and stole its computers. Do you think the republicans did it? Or maybe it was an inside job to avoid the FBI investigation. I do know that MA was not in the process of investigating ACORN.

    Who are these recently registered folks?... I mean why haven't they been brought into the process up to now?????

    The issue of voter fraud isn't entirely about Mickie Mouse or even a few zealots with the nerve to vote several times (though this does highlight the problem)...the real issue is thousands of record Felons and non-citizens registered by the sought- out and badgered by the overly zealous ACORN organization.

    Reasonable ID and constitutionality standards do need to be required at the polls, not only does this make sense (as clearly illistrated by the recent ACORN scandal), it frankly may be the only way to insure confidencee in the constitutionality of our democracy to those of us on both side of the political spectrum.

    I find it amazing that Mr. Mark Crispin Miller is allowed to speak his leftist biased mind on the Journal without being challenged by Bill Moyers. Although the votes of the deceased were mentioned early on in the interview, Mr. Miller forgets the historical fact that during the 1960 election thousands of votes were cast for the JFK/LBJ ticket in Cook County (Chicago) and LBJ's home county in Texas by many deceased people. The democrats have a very long history of stuffing the ballot boxes. I live in Massachusetts a very blue state. I have never heard of any political party being able to send out forms that could be used as a pretext to erase voter names from a community's voter list. The local cities and towns are responsible for maintaining these lists and not either the republican or democrat parties. This sounds like total nonsense to me.

    It is interesting that some here have suggested that the McCain campaign is using the ACORN scandal as a pretext to somehow commit voter fraud...I'm flabbergasted

    The Truth Folks: There are over 200,000 registrations in Ohio with problems...that's one third of the recent registrations.

    It's lost on me how someone so concerned with the issues of Voter Fraud as Mr. Miller claims to be would not find this relevant.

    Clearly an Objective scholar...

    Isn't it rather the truth that all these perennial cries of "voter supression"...and "let everyone vote", that we here every election year, really just reflect liberal fears that increased scrutiny of the voter roll might supress or more precisely discourage Felon and Non-citizens from illegally showing up at the polls?

    Every American has the right to vote, to have his or her vote counted accurately, and to have confidence that his or her vote was not lost, stolen, or mutilated in the innards of some poorly-designed voting machine. And no American should have his or her right to cast a ballot stolen by some false challenge to their legitimate identity and citizenship.

    As we approach the 2008 election we need not focus on non-existent "voter fraud" but rather on the greed-driven corporate fraudsters who marketed these junk voting machines to state after state after state in response to the "Help America Vote Act." Or the thieves who would steal a fellow citizen's most precious right through a false challenge to his or her legitimacy as a voter.

    I was one of the nine Regional Coordinators for the 2004 Ohio Recount of the Presidential vote. I spent much of the month of December 2004 in the Buckeye State. Some of the things our Ohio observers witnessed were shocking, such as sealed ballot boxes being opened and revealing all the ballots sorted by who was voted on for President. Things like this, coupled with the mean-spirited partisan antics of J. Kenneth Blackwell who was then serving as both Ohio Secretary of State and Chair of George W. Bush's Ohio re-election campaign, will cause me to go to my grave forever believing that the person installed as president in January 2005 was not chosen by the Will of the People.

    We can, and we must do better. We have to get it right this time.

    Marybeth Kuznik
    Executive Director, VotePA ( )

    I saw firsthand the outright fraud of ACORN at work in Ohio. While I was up to that point undecided and seriously considering voting for Obama, it so turned me off that I decided against it. My question for everyone is: If Obama has this election in the bag as so many say, then why does he have to cheat? I think the tactics of ACORN has so outraged the American public that on election day they are going to rise up in mass and elect John McCain president.

    Thank you Bill Moyers for finally having the guts to have Mark Crispin Miller on your show, even though he was the last guest and only got speak for roughly 15 minutes.

    I would have preferred if you spent the entire hour on the topics of election theft brought up by MCM and didn't find the earlier guests all that interesting.

    I believe addressing the allegations of voter registration fraud deserves more coverage than the 15 min you gave MCM.

    I believe that McCain-Palin will "take" the election even with obama ahead in the polls by 10% and more right now. McCain-Palin will win with the help of the electronic voting machines and also voter suppression in which greg palast-RFK Jr. allege that many millions of voters have been stricken off the voter reg rolls. check out this new article just published in this month's Rolling Stone:

    anyway, much more coverage and investigations into the stolen elections of 2000, 2002, 2004 needs to be done.

    thanks again for having MCM on your show. finally

    To: Scott

    Regarding: calling author/professor Mark Crispin Miller names, "is not a patriot. He is a liar and a fraud"


    You obviously must be one of Bush's "base" and financially benefit from the no-bid sweetheart contracts handed out to allies and supporters of bush-cheney/GOP.

    Your despicable behaviour illustrates why we have lost our democracy. We don't have a democracy anymore with folks like you.

    shame on you Scott, and the rest of the trolls who deny that any "election theft" has taken place in 2000, 2002 (max cleland), 2004.

    It is people like you that believe that the ends justify the means and deny people who make less money than you and who don't have the assets that you most likely have the right to vote.

    A stolen election is a terrible thing to have helped andno doubt you played some role in it.

    Mark Crispin Miller is not a patriot. He is a liar and a fraud. Along with other moonbat "professors" like Harvey Wasserman and Bob Fitzrakis, they splice together internet twaddle, mathematical noodling, far-off hypotheticals and then scream about stolen elections. The only possible stolen election this decade may have occured in the Washington state gubernatorial race. Bush won. Kerry lost. Gore lost. That is the truth. That is the fact.

    And once again, nobody is brought on to refute Miller's lies. The Keith Olbermann school of journalism lives on.

    How can any person truly paying attention to what has been happening in this country have any doubt that election fraud has been rampant in the last two presidential elections? In all fairness and being from Chicago originally, I know that neither party is completely guiltless, but it is also evident to me that the Republican Party has taken election fraud to heights previously unimagined.

    Thankfully, I live in Johnson County, Iowa and we still have the option to vote by paper ballot, which I do without fail. And electronic voting is now backed up by a paper record. But that's just here. And if votes are stolen across the rest of the country, my vote is being invalidated, too.

    I have no doubt that the Presidential elections of 2000 and 2004 were both stolen. I for one do not consider George W. Bush to be the rightful president of the United States. I prefer to call him The Impostor. I wish the U.N. would send observers to watch our elections!

    I worry about the same thing happening again in the 2008 election. I have seen nothing that gives me confidence that the election will be an honest one this time. I am scared it will be a repeat. Any why not? Even though many of us are convinced the last two were frauds, we haven't done anything that would convince them they shouldn't do it again. If anything, their past success will probably embolden them even more.

    So I ask you, if they do it again, what are we as citizens prepared to do about it this time? Our future as a free and democratic country is at stake. I for one am outraged, but I don't know any easy answers. I am troubled by that. I'm also scared.

    I know there are those who will take umbrage with what I am saying - I read your comments. But just look at the facts. And unless you are very wealthy and care nothing for those with less, why would you vote Republican anyway? Do you really think they have your best interest at heart? For just one example, look at what is happening to the middle class under their rule and the enormous chasm that is growing exponentially between the rich and the rest of us. Need I say more? Ok, then how do you like being lied to about why we started an illegal wars? Who do you think is getting richer on that one at the same time that many of our young are going off to a war where they are maimed for life or loose their life? Are you paying attention? If you are, you should be even more angry than I. I never trusted them, but you did and were betrayed. Are you paying attention?

    1. Oh, for Pete's sake. Other countries, from the most advanced to the most backwards, dab you with indelible ink when you vote in person. What's stopping us?

    2. If a photo ID is mandatory for full citizenship rights, it should be provided as a benefit of citizenship.

    Other countries that allow absentee or distance voting either track the location of all residents (I know, how un-American...because our government would misuse the information, I guess?) and/or provide free, mandatory government photo ID's.

    We tend not to like that idea, so here's a replacement idea: use fingerprints, in a database that cannot be used to link the fingerprint with names. Use this only to check for duplicate submissions.

    NB, there is little evidence for voter fraud at a potentially-significant level for national voting. There is rather more evidence that voting machines can be hacked, individually or as a group, in ways that could tweak a close vote, statewide.

    All of Allegheny county PA is about to vote on machines with unverified software--that's right, never verified since delivery, a couple of years ago--despite 3 years of activism asking for this simple check. Our big problem here isn't fraudulent duplicate voters, it's the limited horizons of Dan Onorato (Chief Executive, Chair of the Board of Elections, and a man not known for admitting his mistakes).

    Thank you for presenting the complex issue of election fraud vs the so-called voter fraud issue through Mark Crispin Miller's concise voice. Because media has failed to discuss either in depth before now, one can at least be glad that such warnings as Mark's, Greg Palast's and Brad Friedman's-- among countless others-- can be heard before November 4.

    Anyone who thinks this is a fantasy of the Democrats has simply not been paying attention during the last elections. There was ample evidence that BOTH 2000 and 2004 were STOLEN. John Conyers' book on Ohio cited numerous instances. What is truly frightening is that so few have been held accountable, and I don't think ANY have gone to jail!!! Incompetence simply is not an adequate defense for what went on. I'm FOR the PAPER ballots recommended by the Canadian a few posts earlier. I can certainly WAIT to find out the results for as long as that takes to count them. The Help America Vote Act was simply another way to enrich the Republican corporations who SELL and control the software on the voting machines...and to ensure they can flip the election if they so choose.

    Mr. Moyers' show is one of the two reasons that I am a monthly donor to my local public television station. I really appreciate his helping to bring these under-reported voting machine & purging problems to light. Unfortunately, neither he nor his guest, Dr. Mark Crispin Miller, mentioned the advantages offered by optical scanning voting systems:
    1) Quick, election night counts, with
    2) Statistically significant audits (hand counts) of every race.
    This is a reasonable compromise that is only available with optical scanners (for speed) and the hand-marked, paper ballots which are then available for verification of both the machines' functionality & for recounts of close races.

    Mark Miller is exactly right but I wish he'd elaborated more on the vote flipping software that was probably the biggest reason for the huge discrepancy between projections and actual outcomes. This is well documented in the film documentary, "Uncounted: The New Math of American Elections" which we (Democrats Abroad) are proudly presenting in Calgary this Sunday. It is alarming and unprecedented and Americans really need to become aware of how dangerous this situation is.

    Another great edition. Thank you.

    Shocking that you Bill would allow such an idiot appear on your program. The only Loser is Mark Miller. He is a professor? Yikes! He is very scary. He is dead wrong about Acorn. In San Diego we have the most voter fraud and other serious problems with the Acron organization.Wake up PEOPLE!! Frankly Mark is prehistoric and technically challenged. Computer voting is the way to go to prevent voter fraud. We younger people like to vote with computers. We trust technology much more than old Mark. His agenda is evident.

    Shocking that you Bill would allow such an idiot appear on your program. The only Loser is Mark Miller. He is a professor? Yikes! He is very scary. He is dead wrong about Acorn. In San Diego we have the most voter fraud and other serious problems with the Acron organization.Wake up PEOPLE!! Frankly Mark is prehistoric and technically challenged. Computer voting is the way to go to prevent voter fraud. We younger people like to vote with computers. We trust technology much more than old Mark. His agenda is evident.

    As usual, comments from Mark Crispin Miller show his deep devotion to our democracy and his thorough understanding of the importance of our vote to that democracy. This was a fantastic program and I would love to see more of the interview - or have it repeated several times - before election day. Maybe you should play it on election day, as well....?

    There are 33,000,000 people in Canada and we have results of national elections in a few hours for the whole country; with no controversies.
    Only paper ballots are used. Each person brings in ID with their current address on it--then they vote. Votes are counted with oversight by all political parties watching.

    Thanks for having MCM on TV. It's so rare that the people really telling the truth are allowed on national (or any) TV.

    To those of you who think he's saying things without documentation, that's only because he didn't have time during that brief segment to go into the MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE that 2004 was stolen in MANY STATES, NOT JUST OHIO.

    Let him and his fellow election integrity activists have as much air time as the phony voter fraud/ACORN allegations, and you'll see plenty of evidence.

    Or you could read his book FOOLED AGAIN.

    Or you can watch Fox and live in your fantasy world, but doesn't all that cognitive dissonance HURT?

    Finally. *sigh*

    An investigation of the Ohio election in 2004 proves that voting machines were rigged, tabulators were rigged, ballot boxes were stuffed, ballots
    were altered, ballots were sorted according to candidate, and ballots were destroyed.

    If want to know how the 2004 election was stolen, read:


    There are sample chapters at the site.

    “Richard Hayes Phillips worked day and night
    for three years compiling irrefutable evidence
    of how the Republicans stole the 2004
    presidential race in Ohio. This landmark
    investigation is a testament to what private
    citizens can accomplish when government
    officials fail to protect our right to vote
    and to count those votes as cast. Every
    American – Republican and Democrat – should
    read this book, and join the fight for
    democracy’s most fundamental right.”

    -- Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

    Read Kennedy's Rolling Stone article at

    Included with the book is a CD with 1200 digital images of ballots, poll
    books, voter signature books, and other elections records, for all to see, and for none to deny.

    Thank you! I was very glad to finally hear an articulate and knowledgeable voice on this vital topic. There has been an orchestrated campaign to drum up panic about so called "voter fraud". As if illegal aliens are lining up to risk the whole of their precarious life in this country to add a single vote to the party of their choice. Absurd. And totally unsupported by any but anecdotal evidence. The real threat, as Miller says, is the covert program to reduce voter turnout by such scare tactics, and to lay the ground work for a spurious challenge to election results. Scary stuff as we head into this defining election. We need to be informed and vigilant, and encourage others to be so. As Miller says, voting is not just a right, but the right that underlies and secures all others.

    People who post objections to Prof. Mark Crispin Miller's segment should really read his work--there are links from Bill Moyers Journal website. Please do not mistake Prof. Miller's tone for anything but what it is: righteous indignation....something like Jesus throwing the moneychangers out of the Temple. But the #1 starting point for anyone who doubts voter suppression and election fraud stories should be the founder of modern Republican strategy and of many key institutions, Paul Weyrich, who said, "As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down." Video and transcript:

    I voted for Bush in 04 and never got a thank-you note as was stated in one of these comments. Wonder how many other Republicans received one. Sounds like a very weird comment.

    Thank you for this excellent but shocking report on voter and election fraud. I think the republican party will say and do anything to control this country. I do not trust them and you can bet I'll have my camera out there on election day. I find the republican tactics in this election to be despicable and I am sick and tired of their whining and complaining about the so called liberal media. Moyers is the most honest and respected journalist of our time. Thank you for this report.


    If the Republicans are controlling the vote with the electronic voting machines, they're not doing a very good job because the last time I checked the Democrats controlled both the House and Senate. If they truly were manipulating the vote I think they would still be in control.
    why so much complaining...just show your ID and vote. Anyone can get a photo ID at the DMV, very inexpensively. If someone is so poor they can't afford that then they must get some kind of assistance that would provide them an ID. If not maybe we should provide a source for free ID cards with proper documentation. Just prove who you are and where you live. If you can't do that then why shouldn't their right to vote be questioned.
    I do have confidence that we are doing the best we can to making voting better.
    What I don't have confidence in as an Independent voter, are the liberal democrats. Each election they have pushed me further away. All they want to do is tear things down for the sake of the fight. They try to make anyone who doesn't think like them feel like they're a racist, sexist or just plain stupid. They use words like Nazi. Liberals need to destroy anything or anyone with different ideas because they can not accept another opinion.
    I find most presentations on PBS including this one biased and think I need to find a more fair minded place to donate my money.

    In 2004 my friend, a registered Democrat, went to cast her vote. When she voted for Kerry, George Bush's name popped up. She called the poll clerk who gave some kind of assistance. She left the poll booth not being quite sure whom she had voted for. A few days later she received a call from the Republican Party thanking her for having voted for George Bush. Nuff said!

    Thanks for having Mr. Miller on your show. He is a breath of fresh air and a true patriot. Living in Ohio, it is hard to trust the integrity of our elections knowing that many of the Bush/Rove operatives continue to work within the system. Thanks to Ken Blackwell, the Republicans had free rein up to and throug the '06 election to do the preparatory work necessary for the '08 election. While this may sound conspiratorial, it is more, as Mr. Miller suggested ,almost too stunning to be believed. But if you want to do your part to learn and spread the word . . before we experience another stolen election, be it presidential or otherwise . . .go to
    to understand the seriousness of Mark Crispin Miller's word.

    Yes, a voter-citizenship id would be fine and welcome with me.

    One ID for USA-driving license, voting, social security, airport travel and all BASED ON PROPER identification!

    Yes please!

    It is too easy to get driver license, or so I have been told by…. others [a UT student was making id's in his dorm room that were very good fakes], which is what every other agency asks for as proper id that you are entitled to …, “kind a like don’t ask don’t tell”, "he/she showed me his/her D.L."

    To wit, “Once every 5 years renewal.” One time requirement: blood-DNA, finger printing and validate citizenship. **

    ** And at a low cost, 25.00, renewal after walking in and verifying your finger print, 15.00, no DNA or citizenship verification needed.

    I am not saying give up a freedom to get security, but just do the job right and then Government get out of the way and let me do my thing.

    I welcome positive thoughts and will follow-up and read your thoughts, friends.

    Miller gave a very cogent picture of the status of THE fundamental right as American citizens (as he said) - the right to vote.
    It's up to us now to take that information and make sure we breathe life into that by continuing to be aware and involved in the life of our Country.
    Voting for Obama will affirm that stance.
    Thank you Bill Moyers for having Mark Crispin Miller on your show - and for all your caring offerings.

    Thank you for giving Mr. Miller a voice on your show. This is the greatest and most underreported. Mr. Miller is a true patriot for all of the work he is putting into this.

    No media bias? Oh my, what a fraud. We Republicans are "stealing" elections. Let me tell you my story. As a registered Republican in the City of Baltimore, my registration was "lost" between the 1996 and 2000 elections (yes, I had voted in 1996, and my registration should have assured my ability to vote in 2000). Fortunately, I attempted to vote in the 2000 primary, and no record could be found for me...I then "registered" in the County in order to vote in the general election. Please don't talk to me about voter's been tried on me, and I believe that my ability to vote was nearly taken from me by fraud. I do believe that my registration was lost on purpose, and by the Democrats. Shame on you for suggesting that Republicans are the culprits in this matter...I don't believe it, and Mark Cripen Miller, and Bill Moyers as a host, are unable to suppress their own biases in discussing this issue.

    I am amazed at the bipartisan distrust!!! Mr. Moyer said nothing when Mr. Crispin Miller stated "since the theft of the 2000 election"... what does he mean? Did not the New York Times go over every potential "math" in the Florida ballots and found that Gore was still a few hundred votes short... sorry to say it was just REALLY close. While I have Dem's in my family, they have at least accepted the REALITY that Gore did not win FLA, and thus, 2000. Why are Moyer and his guest continuing to further a less than accurate perception? Nothing like the Main Stream Media to pick and chose what's in the news... as for voting... just register, show some kind of average form of ID, and fill out you ballot... what's wrong with that?

    As for the soon to be forthcoing rants, God Bless all of you,... and Good Luck Nov. 4th

    I certainly don't have anything against attempts at securing the honesty of elections, but I would like to post this observation from Tocqueville's Democracy in America Vol II, Bk IV, Chap VI about the utility of them: "I think then that the species of oppression by which democratic nations are menaced is unlike anything which ever before existed in the world: our contemporaries will find no prototype of it in their memories. I am trying myself to choose an expression which will accurately convey the whole of the idea I have formed of it, but in vain; the old words 'despotism' and 'tyranny' are inappropriate: the thing itself is new; and since I cannot name it, I must attempt to define it. I seek to trace the novel features under which despotism may appear in the world. The first thing that strikes the observation is an innumerable multitude of men all equal and alike, incessantly endeavoring to procure the petty and paltry pleasures with which they glut their lives. Each of them, living apart, is as a stranger to the fate of all the rest - his children and his private friends constitute to him the whole of mankind; as for the rest of his fellow-citizens, he is close to them, but he sees them not - he touches them, but he feels them not; he exists but in himself and for himself alone; and if his kindred still remain to him, he may be said at any rate to have lost his country. Above this race of men stands an immense and tutelary power, which takes upon itself alone to secure their gratifications, and to watch over their fate. That power is absolute, minute, regular, provident, and mild. It would be like the authority of a parent, if, like that authority, its object was to prepare men for manhood; but it seeks on the contrary to keep them in perpetual childhood: it is well content that the people should rejoice, provided they think of nothing but rejoicing. For their happiness such a government willingly labors, but it chooses to be the sole agent and the only arbiter of that happiness: it provides for their security, foresees and supplies their necessities, facilitates their pleasures, manages their principal concerns, directs their industry, regulates the descent of property, and subdivides their inheritances - what remains, but to spare them all the care of thinking and all the trouble of living? Thus it every day renders the exercise of the free agency of man less useful and less frequent; it circumscribes the will within a narrower range, and gradually robs a man of all the uses of himself...After having thus successively taken each member of the community in its powerful grasp, and fashioned them at will, the supreme power then extends its arm over the whole community. It covers the surface of society with a net-work of small complicated rules, minute and uniform, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate, to rise above the crowd. The will of man is not shattered, but softened, bent, and guided: men are seldom forced by it to act, but they are constantly restrained from acting: such a power does not destroy, but it prevents existence; it does not tyrannize, but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to be nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd...They devise a sole, tutelary, and all-powerful form of government, but elected by the people. They combine the principle of centralization and that of popular sovereignty; this gives them a respite; they console themselves for being in tutelage by the reflection that they have chosen their own guardians. Every man allows himself to be put in leading-strings, because he sees that it is not a person or a class of persons, but the people at large that holds the end of his chain. By this system the people shake off their state of dependence just long enough to select their master, and then relapse into it again. A great many persons at the present day are quite contented with this sort of compromise between administrative despotism and the sovereignty of the people; and they think they have done enough for the protection of individual freedom when they have surrendered it to the power of the nation at large. This does not satisfy me: the nature of him I am to obey signifies less to me than the fact of extorted obedience."

    profs are supposed to be more research based. He shows too much venom.

    I am very disturbed about the voting problems we have here in Texas.

    To many illegals are finding ways to get into the ballet box.

    Many have bought homes, and then get upset when they are deported back out of the states because they did not enter the country legally.

    I have many legal, Mexican friends, but illegals from any former country trouble me!

    I served this country in the military and to now have the illegal receive some kind of pass at any means, is wrong and not in keeping with the values what I was brought up with and understand to be fair.

    IMHO, secure the room then find the illegal person, put them out, then have them APPLY for a “pass as needed” and don’t let them stay after the pass is up like is being done with visa into the country and then that person just never leaves.

    The boarder needs to be secure.

    Lets be sure we are not letting people thru the borders that have the intent to do us harm, then find away to let workers in as they are needed, and keep the health and charity money for the Citizens of the U.S.A. not a undocumented illegally-here-non-usa citizen.


    Ps, the clinic open to the public for a discount based on income that I go to for lower cost health care is 90% pregnant females-Mexican decent and a very few speak English, but very good Spanish!!

    cwm, Vet USAF special forces, Tax payer, white-scot-indian-germany decent, indepentant-voter, taking money from no one.

    Then I would assume that all Democratic members of Congress were elected through election fraud also? Remember, we vote for them on the same ballots.

    What a nutty fruitcake this guy is. YES ID people to make sure they are qualified to vote! With the ACORN scam artists out there we need all the protection we can get to ensure a fair election.

    I have multiple Ohio voting horror tstories. All photo ID does is suppress voters.
    Republicans have turned iinocent until proven guity on its head. Now, everyone is under suspicion. Everyone must prove to Republicans their "worthiness" - by Republican definitions. Values of Republicans are gluttony, greed, suspicion, envy - well, you get the picture. Their version of patriotism is akin to Nazi-ism - salute, submit and serve their whims.

    They gerry-mandered the country to keep themselves in power. They rat-f^@&ed the country better than Nixon.

    They have tainted the voting process and made it into a sham. Who can trust elections and their outcomes?

    They are right now fomenting a civil war by having their party leaders rile up uneducated bigots who will take their violent rhetoric and apply it to people.

    I live in fear of them, and I hope that enough Americans wake up before they destroy what's left of the country.

    Photo ID? En. Oh. NO!

    Thanks for having Mark Crispin Miller on.

    The GOP scams to enforce draconian Photo ID at the polling place is meant as nothing more than to keep eligible (largely Democratic-leaning) voters from voting.

    It's a solution in search of a problem, and I'll hope the Moyers piece tonight focuses on the REAL problems plaguing our electoral system:

    + Illegal voter roll purges of tens of thousands of legal voters in dozens of states.
    + Voting machines that do not work, and should NEVER be trusted.

    I'm sorry to see you all decided to focus on the non-problem of "voter fraud" as being pushed by the GOP in their question to keep voters from voting.

    Voter fraud is not a problem (as even the Bush Admin's own DoJ's numbers show) but ELECTION fraud, on the other hand, is a serious concern that neither the media nor the politicians (from both major parties) seem interested in doing a damned thing about.

    Brad Friedman
    Creator/Publisher - The BRAD BLOG (

    No I do not have confidence in the integrity of the American electoral system. People who own several homes in several different states can vote more than once. The court case in Ohio is a good example of how Republicans want to stuff the ballot boxes. Personally I am worried because I voted absentee this year and my ballot was mailed in. I do not know if it will be delivered. I'm scared that another election could be stolen and it would be the end of the American experiment.

    Post a comment

    THE MOYERS BLOG is our forum for viewers' comments intended for discussing and debating ideas and issues raised on BILL MOYERS JOURNAL. THE MOYERS BLOG invites you to share your thoughts. We are committed to keeping an open discussion; in order to preserve a civil, respectful dialogue, our editors reserve the right to remove or alter any comments that we find unacceptable, for any reason. For more information, please click here.

    A Companion Blog to Bill Moyers Journal

    Your Comments


    THE JOURNAL offers a free podcast and vodcast of all weekly episodes. (help)

    Click to subscribe in iTunes

    Subscribe with another reader

    Get the vodcast (help)

    For Educators    About the Series    Bill Moyers on PBS   

    © Public Affairs Television 2008    Privacy Policy    DVD/VHS    Terms of Use    FAQ