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Were War Crimes Committed in Gaza?

(Photo by Robin Holland)

This week on the JOURNAL, Bill Moyers spoke with Justice Richard Goldstone, a respected figure in international law who headed the controversial UN Human Rights Council investigation into Israel and Hamas’ actions during military operations in Gaza that began last December.

While the resulting ‘Goldstone Report’ concluded that both sides had committed war crimes and, potentially, crimes against humanity, it was especially harsh in its condemnation of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for their actions in Gaza, saying that they were “a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate, and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability.”

Last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu delivered a speech to the UN in which he argued that the report was unfair and morally misguided. The released text of the speech says:

“For eight long years, Hamas fired from Gaza thousands of missiles, mortars, and rockets on nearby Israeli cities. Year after year, as these missiles were deliberately hurled at our civilians, not a single UN resolution was passed condemning those criminal attacks. We heard nothing, absolutely nothing, from the UN Human Rights Council, a misnamed institution if ever there was one... Faced with an enemy committing a double war crime of firing on civilians while hiding behind civilians, Israel sought to conduct surgical strikes against the rocket launchers. That was no easy task because the terrorists were firing missiles from homes and schools, using mosques as weapons depots and ferrying explosives in ambulances. Israel, by contrast, tried to minimize casualties by urging Palestinian civilians to vacate the targeted areas... Never has a country gone to such extraordinary lengths to remove the enemy’s civilian population from harm’s way. Yet faced with such a clear case of aggressor and victim, who did the UN Human Rights Council decide to condemn? Israel. A democracy legitimately defending itself from terror is morally hanged, drawn and quartered, and given an unfair trial to boot. By these twisted standards, the UN Human Rights Council would have dragged Roosevelt and Churchill to the dock as war criminals. What a perversion of truth, what a perversion of justice.”

On the JOURNAL, Justice Goldstone addressed critics of the report and described his experience conducting the investigation in Gaza:

“I would like to see [critics’] response to the substance [of the report], particularly the attack on the infrastructure of Gaza, which seems to me to be absolutely unjustifiable... I saw the destruction of the only flour-producing factory in Gaza. I saw fields plowed up by Israeli tank bulldozers... I had to have the very emotional and difficult interviews with fathers whose little daughters were killed, whose families were killed... It was a very difficult investigation which will give me nightmares for the rest of my life.”

Bill Moyers then asked Goldstone why he considers Israel’s actions to have been war crimes. Goldstone said:

"[In] humanitarian law, really fundamental is what’s known as the principle of distinction. It requires commanders, troops, all people involved in war to distinguish between civilians and combatants, and then there’s a question of proportionality. One can, in war, target a military target, and there can be what’s euphemistically referred to as ‘collateral damage,’ but the collateral damage must be proportionate to the military aim. If you can take out a munitions factory in an urban area with a loss of 100 lives, or you can use a bomb twice at large and take out the same factory and kill 2000 people, the latter would be a war crime. The former wouldn’t... We found that [Hamas’] firing of many thousands of rockets and mortars at a civilian population to constitute a serious war crime, and we said possibly crimes against humanity... It’s difficult to deal equally with a state party with the sort of sophisticated army Israel has, with an air force and a navy and the most sophisticated weapons [and] with Hamas using really improvised, imprecise armaments. It’s difficult to equate their power.”

Click here to review the Goldstone report and some of the voices responding to it.

What do you think?

  • Do you believe that war crimes were committed in Gaza? If so, by whom?

  • Considering Israel’s tactical and technological advantage, would you weigh the IDF and Hamas differently when considering possible war crimes? Explain.

  • Are the conclusions of the Goldstone report fair? Why or why not?


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    Comments

    bergamo.

    We are obviously both caught up in the Israeli vs Arab narratives and making little forward movement.

    What I would like to ask you though, is, that since you claim to be such a fighter for justice that you have not included the Jewish refugees from Mid East Arab countries in your remarks about a just peace. Shouldn't they also, 700,000 or more, who were uprooted and expelled from their homes in Egypt, Iraq .Iran etc, also be offered an opportunity to return home or fair compensation if they so choose.

    Are they not victims of ethnic cleansing and shouldn't the people responsible be brought to justice?. Are these refugees not the victims of collective punishment ?. Where is the compassion for them?

    Phil, by the way you write you seem an intelligent and cultivated person.
    Why then do you keep coming up with such lame arguments?

    You keep telling me that injustice was not done only against Palestinians. Some of the Israelifirsters bloggers -- not you yet -- for instance argue that the USA and Britan have brought against Afghani and Iraqi a greater havoc than that brought by Israel against Palestinians. They should be tried too.

    Lame arguments.

    Two wrongs to not make a right. Yes, Bush and Blair should also be tried.

    But that does not change the fact that Israeli leaders deserve the same fate.

    Insofar as Israel offering Palestinians peace, what are you reading? Forward? Dershowitz? The Camp David myth has been debunked so many times by the very people who attended on Clinton's team (Malley Agha among others) that nobody now even quotes it.

    When has Israel offered Palestine a reasonable peace, with at least 22% of Mandate Palestine, contiguous borders, Jerusalem as capital and a recognition of the right of refugees to return? So far as I know never.

    Your leaders keep saying that they are ready to sit around a table to make peace, while, at the same time, encouraging settlers to expand Israel's borders, building an infamous wall, keeping thousand of Palestinians in jail without trial (far worse than Guantanamo), denying Palestinians water while allowing settlers to waste it on swimming pools.. etc. etc.

    Israel is a colonial state. It is a shame for anyone concerned with human rights. Not unlike Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Burma... etc. etc.


    bergamo

    I know it is too much to expect you to give Israel any credit for its accomplishments. you much prefer to attribute it to the "pouring of public and private resources" from America and people who where "educated elsewhere". I am surprised you didn't attributed it to oil from the Sinai and salt from the Dead Sea.

    You seem to have forgotten that the Palestinians were offered peace on several occasions but choose to continue the ..." fight for independence.." as you put it. So isn't it about time to stop considering them as victims and instead as a stubborn people who cannot stomach having free and prosperous Jews as their neighbors,

    You seem to criticize the League of Nations and Britain for agreeing to the partition of the Mandate.
    Why aren't you applying the same argument to the creation of Jordan or the redrawing of the boundaries of a multitude of Middle East countries? Why is it only the creation of Israel that draws your ire. I don't recall Britain asking the Palestinians if they wanted to be governed by Jordan or if Jordanian taxes would be excessive..

    There were more Arabs than Jews in the Mandate but the partition attempted to designate the areas with a Jewish majority as Israel and those areas with an Arab majority as Palestine. The split wasn't perfect and Israel was left with the Negev desert , which no-one wanted. The 78% figure would not loom so large if it were not for the Negev,

    "Hundred of thousands" of Jewish refugees from Europe fled to Israel for the very same reason that hundred of thousands of Muslims are moving to Europe now, for a better life. These same Muslims are now demanding to be governed by Sharia law in their host countries. Many have set up little enclaves in Europeon cities and forced previous owners to vacate. Is that fair?

    At Camp David , Israel agreed to return to the 67 war borders with minor adjustments. It will probably do so again when it believes it has partners for peace in the Palestinians. At this tine Abbas is so weak that there is no real partner and Hamas is working for Israels destruction.


    If you don't, take your venomous diatribes somewhere else

    Posted by: phil


    Thanks, Phil, for teaching the idiots in USA what psycho logical assessments are employed in concocting your "lists".

    "venomous diatribe" =

    "You're going to have to learn how not to insult every other country on earth that can make comparable claims about its "government" and its "geniuses"."

    ehhmm, I wanted to say Palestinians were twice as many as Jews. Sorry

    Now on Phil's historical analysis:
    1) the League of Nations required of the Mandatory Powers, that is Britain for Palestine, to protect and promote the interests of the people under Mandate. How can importing hundred of thousand of Jews against the will of the indigenous people be construed as fulfilling the obligations of the Mandate? Britain had obligations towards the Palestinians that it did not respect.
    2) Phil invokes the rejection of the partition as a justification for the ethnic cleansing that ensued, and that brought 78% of Mandate Palestine under Israeli control. The argument, I guess is that, if the UN did the unjust thing of splitting Palestine roughly into two parts (despite the fact that Jews were twice as many as the Palestinians) tough on the Palestinians, that is the international law. Well then, why not applying all other resolutions that impose Israel to give back what it took (stole) in 1967?

    I do not really care if Israeli have achieved such heights of culture and prosperity. I might point out that a big factor has been the pouring of public and private resources from America, and of people educated elsewhere, in Russia, in the UK, in the USA. But I said, I do not care.
    That does not change the fact that Israel is behaving as a rogue state. Pretty much like Germany in the XX century despite her intellectual achievements, or the Roman Empire, against whose dominance it was Jewish people who fought. The Jews then were -- and where considered by the Romans -- uncouth peasants, too stubborn and too stupid to accept the higher values embodied by the Roman elites. Yet their fight for independence is still celebrated in Israel.
    What makes Israeli believe that the fight for independence of the Palestinians won't be celebrated too, some time from now?

    Anna D

    Speaks of countries other than Israel which have a long list of accomplishments and houses many "geniuses". I ask her to share her knowledge with us of what other countries have in 60 years built an economy with a GDP of over $28,000 per capita, have given all and every citizen, Arab and Jew, a national health care system with a basket of services from cradle to grave, have built world famous educational institutions, have invented medical devices used around the world, have a world class symphony, have a life expectancy of 81 years, have a government where minorities are well represented , have a judicial system that guarantees justice for all its citizens, has more industrial companies on the NASDAQ than any other country besides the US, has offered medical aid to every country that experiences a natural disaster, has been a refuge for refugees from Africa, Europe, the Middle East, are on the cutting edge of technologies such as solar heating, desalination and agriculture which are of benefit to all mankind. And they have done all this in a hostile environment fighting existential wars
    So please, Anna D, enlighten us with regards to what other countries you know that have similar accomplishments. If you don't, take your venomous diatribes somewhere else

    Phil wrote, in part, "Israel is now a vibrant democracy that is a leader in science, medicine and the arts."

    You're going to have to learn how not to insult every other country on earth that can make comparable claims about its "government" and its "geniuses".

    Martin Evans is wrong in several points he made. First Israeli bombing in Gaza bears no relevance to Watts or Kent State etc. Israel was attacked for 9 months by rockets from Gaza. In the past Israel has been criticized for targeted assassinations , for commando actions and now for bombing. What do you recommend a appropriate response would be? Nasty emails or poison pen letters? Second , your point that the creation of Israel was.. "one ot the larger mistakes of the west.." is egregiously wrong.

    The creation of Israel saved the lives of millions of refugees from Europe and Russia. Political refugees from Russia found a haven in Israel and the possibility of living full lives away from Russian persecution. Seven hundred thousand of Jews that were expelled from Arab countries were the lived for centuries as second class citizens were integrated into Israeli society and now live in total freedom. Was all this a great mistake as M Evans states?

    Israel is now a vibrant democracy that is a leader in science, medicine and the arts. It has world class universities and hospitals. Is that a mistake also? There are 10 million people residing in Israel and the West Bank. Just prior to the creation of Israel, in 1946 there were about 2 million people in the same location. This included 1.2 million Arabs and 600 thousand Jews.. The plan was that those areas where Jews were a majority would become Israel and those areas where Arabs were a majority would become Palestine. This required some distorted borders but the Jews accepted the plan and the Arabs chose war.
    The war and the creation of refugees that followed are the consequence of Arabs intransigence and not of Israel's supposed genocidal plans. Had the Arabs accepted the division of land there would not have been a refugee problem.

    At the end of WW 1 that region which was under the Ottoman Empire control became under control of France and England. These two countries redrew many borders including those of Lebanon , Syria , Jordan , Iraq and Saudi Arabia. So it was no surprise that they also made proposals regarding the partition of Palestine which was then a British mandate . This portioning to Arab countries didn't seem to matter to the Palestinian Arabs because they had no nationalistic ambitions anyway. It was only when the proposal for a Jewish nation was made that the Palestinian Arabs suddenly acquired a need for "self determination". The thought of living along side a Jewish nation was more than the Arabs could accept even though they displayed no previous desire for nationalistic institutions
    .
    So there was no mistake when Israel was created. On the contrary, it made possible a new nation that has great potential and could be a jewel in the Middle East it its neighbors would stop trying
    to make it disappear.


    Martin Evans wrote, in part, "...but i'm sure that the way Isreal was created at the end of WWI was one of the larger mistakes the west, including the US, has made, and we as a planet will be recovering from for a really long time."

    End of WWII, wasn't it...?

    There is no way to explain the "mistake" to the next couple of generations unless the context is provided - that being that it's all about what was written and re-written in "holy books" - not THAT is "creepy", isn't it?

    So the question on the table in USA is "do we continue to use "holy books" and magic 8-ball toys to run civilization?"

    Let me shake the magic 8 ball....answer is "ask again later"...

    :-)

    it really felt to me that Bill was overly aggressive/defensive towards Judge Goldstone. how is Isreal a "democracy?" what Isreal did in Gaza is about equivalent to the US bombing predominantly black cities or towns in the US during the 60's in order to root out terrorism, like Watts. or what happened at Kent State.
    i'm not sure whether Isreal has a "right to exist" but i'm sure that the way Isreal was created at the end of WWI was one of the larger mistakes the west, including the US, has made, and we as a planet will be recovering from for a really long time.
    i was disappointed at Bill's interrogation of the judge.

    Wow, the shills are still out in full force. I don't believe for one moment that Israel faces this kind of terror ever day, although the timing of it couldn't have come at a better time in the midst of all this controversy over the Goldstone Report.

    200 shots fired from one hand gun...hmmm, yeah, ok. Now let's ratchet up those hate crime hoaxes. I expect Hammer and Phil to grab their brush and bucket of paint and go mark up their synagogues with swastikas.

    I heard the Jews are upset because kids in the UK think that Auschwitz is an amusement park. It seems to me that the significance of a regime that died 65 years ago is only significant to those who must forever be painted as the victims here.

    I think that says it all.

    Posted by: Hammer

    Yeah, location, location, location matters.

    Would "god" really stop loving you if your location changed...?

    Can you remember 9-11 twin towers attack in New York?How about a few days ago at Fort Hood? This is the kind of terror Israel faces every day.What excuse are you going to make for the Fort Hood murder?These are the same people same ideology that Israel is fighting against.I think that says it all.

    Here's the bottom line - picture that sculpture of "Justice"...

    Judge Goldstone is a JUDGE.

    The "jury" - the rest of humanity not steeped in the self-serving fictions of "religion" that were hatched in the middle east and on which this whole scenario of HORROR was born, are NOT on either side.

    What happened to the wall project?

    Why is it not surprising that my reply to Phil's "why the difference?" got deleted...

    We're going to get our hands on that anti-semite "list" one way or another, Phil.

    Here is a suggestion, Why don't the Jews of Israel migrate to America?

    They've got the US in their back pocket, they receive billions in 'aid' from the US, they've got what they call 'their first Jewish president' in Obama, so why cling to what a Scandinavian diplomat called 'a shitty little country in the middle east'?

    After all, the Jews of Israel consider themselves to be Europeans, so what are they doing in the middle east? Go live in America, there is plenty of land for all of them. This should ensure peace in the middle east and a whole less trouble for the rest of us.

    Would you like to see why Israel has to play hardball with Hezbolah, Hamas and Iran ?

    A shipload of death for Israeli cities. One day they may open the crate and find an atom bomb.
    Of course Iran will deny deny deny.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXDCDPPeN_Q&feature=sdig&et=1257454538.7

    I would like the people who express such horror at the alleged war crimes by Israel in the Gaza war one question.

    For 60 years it has been the policy of Palestinian terrorists to invade Israel proper to kill Israeli's of all ages. Their rationale was that even babies in the mothers womb were potential Israeli soldiers so were fair game. Many Israeli children from 1 to 5 years old had their heads bashed with a rifle butt or a rock because they would one day grow up and be soldiers. And the world was silent because that was an act of "resistance". Not one word of collective punishment or disproportionate response was spoken by the UN or so called Human Rights groups.

    But now , the cries of disproportionate response and collective punishment are filling the air. The only difference is now the accusations are being directed at the Israeli's and the Palestinians are getting another free "get out of jail pass". Why the difference?

    Bill, why were you pushing the Israeli government claims of bias (claims which Goldstone has very ably shown to be false) so hard?

    Given the blindly pro-Israel whether it's right or wrong condition of the US media (and worse, Congress), you get credit for inviting Justice Goldstone and devoting the entire program to UN report on Gaza which he led.

    But it had to have been clear to you that nearly all of the "controversy" about this report is from Israel itself (no one likes to be shown to be a war criminal) and the US, which for whatever reason chooses to blindly support Israel in every circumstance, right or wrong.

    Were your questions genuine? Or did you feel that such questions would provide you some cover as being tough on Goldstone?

    I won't criticize anymore, though, since you are one of only a handful of mainstream journalists to even try to present any side of a story other than that promoted by the Israeli government.

    - cricket cricket -

    this thread has wound down...?

    ah yes, turned on TV for a minute, channel surfed and got the scoop - the wad ain't getting released in the shower...

    so the phil and chasE show has moved on to other sites...a long gone radio station used to advertise itself as "all news, all day"...

    today is going to be another "cloudy" day

    "all Israel, all day"

    with the puching bag du jour - "...hillary over played her hand..."

    great discussion about what "paper" to use to make the new currency out of...

    taking suggestions :-)

    cotton and linen vs. ???

    Here are some more "doctored" photos for you Phil. Refute them:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReportersNotebook/message/1867

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/GazaHolo/index.html
    Personally, I think the ones on the left are fake. Maybe you can help me out with that, Phil.

    ChasE

    I wondered how long it would be before your true nature would start to emerge. Couldn't allow that thin veneer of an inquisitive mind just searching for answers to ageless questions cover for you any longer. Reaching out and slashing and cutting in every which way. From archeology to genealogy to revisionist history, you have declared yourself an expert, You are delusional. You would have made an excellent Cossack with your razor sharp sword and dull brain
    Now you are hiding behind a supposed Sephardic Jew that is you say is responsible for the "What Really Happened "site. Why don't you declare for all to see if you believe the so called "missile craters" are or are not what they claim on the site. That's all you "great fighter for truth" declare yourself or crawl back under your rock A simple yes or no will suffice

    ChasE wrote, in part, "Nobody is a bigger liar than those that claim their ancestors lives on a land some 2,000 years ago when they in fact, did not."

    I had to ask, ChasE. Only fair to evaluate the qualifications before handing over the keys of the global kingdom over to self-proclaimed geniuses chosen by "god" to rule the "sheep"...

    It's yet another aspect of the big bowl of crazy that you hear the crickets in the silence when you bring up the FACT of the huge amount of war refugees that fled from places where they actually DID live for 2000 years...an - voila - a global economy that absolutely does NOT lend itself to being used to re-establish basic human needs!

    I'm raising an "army", so to speak, of people who searched their "souls" and found that they have NO MORAL OBLIGATION to be ruled by the DELUSIONS of self-proclaimed "chosen ones".

    Which means anyone who BELIEVES that the world is ending in 2012 or that Jesus will only come once we blow enough people up in the Middle East should NOT be in any "government" position in the USA. That's MY list....heck, anyone can start a list, huh?

    "With all due respect, the question I asked was for ONE example of a civilization that "god's chosen ones" actually BUILT."

    Anna, they haven't. All the destruction of Palestinian land has uncovered Muslim and Arab artifacts, but nothing that indicates anything related to "Jews". So they destroy the evidence. That's how people like Phil operate.

    Did you know the word "Jew" is a little more than 200 years old? Of course, Phil will call this a lie, without any body of evidence to contradict me. Nobody is a bigger liar than those that claim their ancestors lives on a land some 2,000 years ago when they in fact, did not.

    If Ghengis Khan were alive today, I think even HE'D turn his back on them in denial.

    Phil, the Pharisee, queries the sanctity of my "heart" and my "mind" from his position of self-proclaimed "authority", "If the Jews are so irrelevant why do you spend so much time thinking about them?"

    Run that "cloud" technology feature, Phil, on the WORD stream of the "internet", on the stream of cable "news" to see which WORD is the biggest....

    ISRAEL is a bigger word than "USA" or "AMERICA".

    We MUST engorge our "minds" on the NEWS from ISRAEL more than on the maintenance of civilization across 3000 x 1000 miles with 300 million people from every corner of the planet!

    When I look at the mano et mano problems in my REAL, in-the-flesh life, no "Israeli" friends around - nope not one. Go figure. Just some kicked up dust from the stampede away from "charity" work...

    In the 13th century, King Boleslaw knew what pieces of civilization were, ahem, "protected" during the chaos of the Roman Empire falling and the delusional dark ages that followed....let's not get too conceited about WHY the invitation was extended - guess it's all about how you look at who "owns" what and how :-)

    Maybe give your fevered mind a rest, Phil, and watch the western flick "Maverick" starring that anti-semite Mel Gibson and Jodi Foster...different perspective on "wealth distribution"...but maybe suggesting Star Trek episodes to you would be the greater good...? Start with "Drumline" - Star Trek Next Generation...

    Dump the load in the shower, Phil. That stuff is not imbued with "existential" properties of the "fountain head"...

    The OTHER question YOU have not answered - JEWS have NOT been prevented from land ownership, "building" etc etc that you bemoaned before as the cause of not having any "history" with civilization building in the USA, have you?

    Are you just on "send" and no "receive", Phil...? Have you been reading ANY of what us witless goyims have been blathering about...? The biblical rendering of the fabric of society...?

    Nice job, Dudes.

    At least do a Greenspam and admit - "whoops"...

    First USSR black-holed, now USA...you sure you want to keep climing "genius" status in regards to "civilization"...?

    My my, how we let all this flesh stuff keep us from our spirit, induced our not.

    Freedom, knowing you and your neighbors eat until the next harvest, drink until the next rainfall, giving us the human energy to build strong, safe communities.

    phil: "Could it possibly be that you are harboring feelings of inferiority. You should get help."

    Help is on the way.

    Are you really going to cling to that silly crap in the Talmud? We are not your bloody cattle; nor should you harbor any feelings of superiority. This is why you got into trouble in the first place. Wrong actions are wrong, regardless of who commits said actions.

    In his own words Goldstone has told us that there is much to speculate about the validity of his report. Read on...

    Even Justice Goldstone himself, the author of the report, has cast doubts about the fairness[4] of the 575-page report[5] and said it wouldn’t stand up to legal scrutiny.[6]

    “We couldn’t use that report as evidence at all,” Goldstone said. “But it was a useful roadmap for our investigators, for me as chief prosecutor, to decide where we should investigate. And that’s the purpose of this sort of report.”[7] He added, “We had to do the best we could with the material we had. If this was a court of law, there would have been nothing proven.”[8

    I know posters on this board are staying up nites thinking how they can twist his words into something that demonizes Israel, so go to work guys and gals

    Anna D
    If the Jews are so irrelevant why do you spend so much time thinking about them?
    And I never mentioned the phrase " chosen people" it is you and your cohorts who keep bringing it into the conversation. Could it possibly be that you are harboring feelings of inferiority. You should get help.

    ChasE
    Starting to feel a little warm ? Starting tp prespire ? It was you ChasE who called the boards attention to the "What Really Happened" site and all its fake photos.
    You directed us all there to find the REAL TRUTH of what Israel had done.
    And the research you did to assemble the "Timeline Of Jewish Persecutions" is also amazing. You must be a have a PHd in Religious History. Probably as valid as the photos on your favorite web site.
    And be sure to let Goldstone know of the site. It is representative of the reliability of the other information he has been accumulating.

    By the phrase "built" do you mean mortar and bricks or steel beams or what? If thats what you mean then you must know that thru the ages Jews were not allowed to join skilled labor guilds like carpenters , tinsmiths, etc, or even own land. They survived by their wits. And so will they continue to do without your help.


    Posted by: phil


    C'mon, Phil, the most famous Jew was a carpenter and a fisherman...under the protection of the Roman Empire, Jews had it all until they p-ssed off the Romans...so wrong again in your history re-enactments...

    With 7 billion people on the planet, 7 million in a cult on a spit of land with no fresh water source, are irrelevant. Go get busy with your PR campaign about "chosen ones" being smarter than everyone else on the planet in the area of the world with 4 billion people - China, India, Indonesia, Japan, etc.

    Boy Phil, you really live in a weird little world. You haven't proven a thing regarding me "Lying". You even bring up the What Really Happened website, which is hosted by a Sephardic Jew. I know, I know, he's a self-hating Jew...good cop out.

    All you HAVE proven is to be a pro-Israeli shill, who, along with the rest of your ADL brethren, are really in desperation mode with your failing damage control over the Goldstone Report. You're a Goldstone Denier.

    You're a true Anti-Semite Phil, as the Palestinians are true Semites, not you, no doubt an Eastern European Khazar convert.

    You've shown your true colors. Haven't proven a thing, except in your neurotic mind.

    ChasE
    It is interesting that you brought up the subject of lying because I have shown previously how you have lied to the board . You ask the board to go to the site

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/anyquestions.php

    where they would fine evidence of giant craters made by Israeli missiles. I pointed out that it was impossible for these craters to be made from missiles since adjacent trees and buildings would have been destroyed and all the debris on the edges would have been scattered 100's of yards away. These were obviously holes dug by Hamas for the consumption of western media and distribution by fools like you. You should have learned by now how skillfull Hamas is at fraud and fakery.
    You lied to us and proved yourself to be either foolish or untrustworthy or both.

    Anna D
    You appear to be obsessed with the notion that there are no examples of Jews having "built' anything. Can it be that you are unaware of the great contributions that Jews have made to countries all around the world. They have "built" world class hospitals and universities werever they lived.
    They have made great contributions in science, industry, the arts , medicine that are too numerous to mention. Are you realy not aware of these contibutions or are you just playing dumb. I could go on to name the Noble prizes won by Jews but that would be useless because you have closed your mind to anything I may offer.that shows Jews in a positive light.
    By the phrase "built" do you mean mortar and bricks or steel beams or what? If thats what you mean then you must know that thru the ages Jews were not allowed to join skilled labor guilds like carpenters , tinsmiths, etc, or even own land. They survived by their wits. And so will they continue to do without your help.

    I have heard many justifications of Israel's massacre in Gaza but this:

    "the citizen must leave his job, leave his home and family and go to war.... the negative impact on society is great. Israel is mobilized to end the conflict fast and not let it drag out. This implies a disproportionate response to all hostilities."

    ...takes the biscuit. 700 women, children and elderly persons died horribly so Moshe could get back on shift at MacDonalds!

    There was an alternative phil.

    Hamas had demonstrated their willingness to negotiate in good faith by imposing a six month ceasefire.
    http://mwcnews.net/content/view/33738/26/

    Israel not only violated the ceasefire with an attack on Gaza during the period, they had never fully implemented their obligations to lift the blockade which caused malnutrition among nearly half of Gaza's children.
    The fact that planning for "Operation Cast Lead" began before the ceasefire agreement was implemented tells us all we need to know.

    ChasE,

    Wow! Impressive timeline list - you must still have access to the internet - I, unfortunately, am stuffed inside the psychobabble of aol and google "search" engines...can't do any research - so back to the library...

    With all due respect, the question I asked was for ONE example of a civilization that "god's chosen ones" actually BUILT.

    Both your list, and Phil's example of dredging up a Polish king and equating cossaks with poles ignore the POINT...and what about Czar Nicolai's assassination - by invitation of "god"?

    Unless someone takes the Federal reserve Board to an international court for conspiracy to destroy USA infrastructure (jobs, housing, BASIC municiple services), a country of 7 million people will continue to feed the delusion that they are RELEVANT to civilization on a planet of 7 BILLION people.

    Ah yes, "Intelligence shows" that Hamas was using hospitals and schools. That's the next ploy. If this is indeed true, then the Israeli government has undercover agents in Palestine. That begs the question, A) are they lying (They've done it before) and B) What were they planting while inside Palestinian borders (Perhaps a few of those pop rockets that hit nothing inside Israel except scrape up a street corner?)

    I do agree with James Rochford that Israel has the right to defend itself as does every country, person or entity. However the discussion does not end there. Every country has the right and or duty to carry out the ensuing battles so as to win the war. For Israel to restrict its war tactics to mere proportional response to Hamas would be suicide. No country can allow its enemy to dictate how the war should be fought.
    Israel has a citizen army When called to duty the citizen must leave his job, leave his home and family and go to war. The Israeli economy is such that when 30-40 thousand workers are gone for weeks or months the negative impact on society is great. Israel is mobilized to end the conflict fast and not let it drag out. This implies a disproportionate response to all hostilities.
    A one for one, tit for tat war is not in Israel's best interest.

    Goldstone is not concerned about Israel's best interest, hence his report speaks negatively of the damage inflicted by Israel. Did Israel attack hospitals and clinics? Possibly, when intelligence showed they were bring used by Hamas as control centers and war rooms. One writer to this blog thought it was ok for Hamas to use a clinic as a war room, "since Hamas built the clinic"
    Sorry that's not the way wars are fought.

    It is highly possible that multistory buildings were destroyed by Israel as its troops advanced thru Gaza City. The decision has to be made that if Israeli soldiers are pinned down by Hamas militants occupying the roof and top floors of such a building , should the soldiers expose themselves to the booby traps and mines in the lower floors or bring down the entire building. My guess is that Israeli casualties were kept low by bringing down the building.

    In the battles in Jenin in the West Bank several years ago, Israel tried to keep collateral damage low by sending its soldiers into the narrow streets to engage the militants. Many Israeli soldiers were lost in the process. I don't believe it will make that mistake again.

    If Hamas provokes, Israel should be free to hit back and hit back hard , regardless of what the international community thinks. When Hamas accepts that, peace may actually be a little closer.

    It was istablished in the interview that Judge Goldman was a Jew and a Zionist. Mr. Moyers asked what that meant and the Judge replied that he believes Israel has a right to exist. Then Mr. Moyers failed to ask the crucial question - why does Israel have a right to exist where Palestinians had lived for millenniums? If the answer had been because of the holocaust, the obvious conclusion is that two wrongs don't make a right.
    Gwen W.

    The issue here is that the aggressor, Israel, plays the victim and always defends its "right to exist". However, nobody, not the mainstream media, nor the Israeli government ever says that Palestinians have "the right to exist". The maps continue to tell the story, and Phil, Everett, Natalie, every pro-Israeli shill on this site, will address this. They shout "Anti-Semitism" as a defense. However, they fail to acknowledge that the Palestinians, are, indeed, a Semitic people. Therefore, their acceptance of aggression in Gaza, is in fact, an anti-Semitic view point.

    I wish I was a cartographer. That forever changing Palestinian/Israeli map would keep me in business for quite some time.

    It is unfortunate that pro-Israel elements often view any criticism of their nation's actions as anti-Semitism. No rational observer of the Israel-Palestine conflict that I know of has ever suggested that Israel does not have a right to defend itself. Certainly, Justice Goldstone has made no such assertion. Until we can overcome our tendency toward polarization, I fear that there is no hope for any peace or reconciliation between the involved parties. Can we not agree that Palestinians and Israelis have, indeed, committed atrocities against each other? Can we not accept, as truth, the assessment of a credible fact-finder such as Justice Goldstone? I believe that, once we have accepted what is truth, only then may we begin to reconcile our differences.

    I don't know if there is a point writing again, but the issue is so important..
    1) I do not share the views expressed by a few here that Jews are responsible for the suffering imposed on them. It is false to state that they have been expelled from every country they settled in -- Turkey, much of North Africa before 1949 -- as ChasE suggests. Infact, in Germany they were very well integrated. Many died a very patriotic death in WWWI on the side of the Germans and Austrians.
    2) I admire culture whenever I see it and I recognize the contribution of Jews -- much as I doubt that many of the Germans of Jewish descent Phil has listed would consider themselves Jews, but this is another matter -- to world science and culture. Great. Thanks. You forgot Freud, Chagall and many others.
    3) I still think Israel is a rogue state, because this has nothing to do with that. What Israel does is appalling.
    4) Phil, how do you know my ass is goysh? Couldn't I be one of what people of your conviction call self-hating Jews, as if love for justice was somehow anti-Jewish?

    So, Phil, what happened? You expound your Jewish superiority upon us, even violating your sabbath to do so...so what happened in each of these events? And please, stop quoting what you learned at Talmud school or Jewish summer camp. Show your work. Tell me how, in each and every one of the events below did the other side have "the Jews all wrong". Still haven't done it.

    TIMELINE OF JEWISH PERSECUTIONS

    Date Place Event
    580 B.C. Babylon/Judea "Nebuchadnezzar conquers Judea, burns Temple"
    38 B.C. "Alexandria, Egypt" Mob Attacks
    3 B.C. Egypt Expulsion
    66 C.E. "Alexandria, Egypt" Mob Attacks
    70 C.E. Jerusalem Expulsion following revolt
    250 C.E. Carthage Expulsion
    224 C.E. Italy Forced Conversion
    325 C.E. Jerusalem Expulsion renewed by Constantine
    351 C.E Persia Book Burning
    357 C.E. Italy Property Confiscation
    379 C.E. Milan Synagogue Burning
    415 C.E. Alexandria Expulsion
    418 C.E. Minorca Forced Conversion
    468 C.E. Babylon/Judea Expulsion
    469 C.E. Ipahan Holocaust
    470 C.E. Babylon/Judea Expulsion
    489 C.E. Antioch Synagogue Burning
    506 C.E. Daphne Synagogue Burning
    519 C.E. Ravenna Synagogue Burning
    554 C.E. Diocese of Clement (France) Expulsion
    561 C.E. Diocese of Uzes (France) Expulsion or Conversion
    582 C.E Merovingia Forced Conversion
    612 C.E. Visigoth Spain Expulsion
    624 C.E. Hejaz Expulsion
    628 C.E. Byzantium Forced Conversion
    629 C.E. Merovingia Forced Conversion
    633 C.E. Toledo Forced Conversion
    638 C.E. Toledo Stake Burnings
    642 C.E. Visigothic Empire Expulsion
    653 C.E. Toledo Expulsion
    681 C.E. Spain Forced Conversion
    693 C.E. Toledo Jews Enslaved
    722 C.E. Byzantium Judaism Outlawed
    855 C.E. Italy Expulsion
    876 C.E. Sens Expulsion
    897 C.E. Narbonne Land Confiscation
    945 C.E. Venice Ban on Sea Travel
    1009 C.E. Orleans Massacre
    1012 C.E. "Rouen, Limoges & Rome" Massacre
    1012 C.E. "Mayence, Germany" Expulsion
    1021 C.E. Rome Jews Burned Alive
    1063 C.E. Spain Massacre
    1095 C.E. Lorraine Massacre
    1096 C.E. Northern France & Germany 1/3 of Jewish Population Massacred as part of the First Crusade
    1096 C.E. Hungary Massacre
    1096 C.E. Ralisbon Massacre
    1099 C.E. Jerusalem Jews Burned Alive
    1100 C.E. Kiev Pogrom
    1140 C.E. Germany Massacres
    1142-1212 C.E. North Africa Massacres
    1146 C.E. Rhine Valley Massacre as part of the Second Crusade
    1147 C.E. Wurzburg Massacre
    1147 C.E. Belitz (Germany) Jews Burned Alive
    1147 C.E. "Carenton, Ramenu & Sully (France)" Massacres
    1171 C.E. Blois Stake Burnings
    1181 C.E. France Expulsion/Property Confiscation
    1181 C.E. England Property Confiscation
    1188 C.E. London & York Mob Attacks
    1189 C.E. England Mob Attacks against Jews following coronation of Richard the Lionheart/ Property Confiscation.
    1190 C.E. Norfolk Jews Burned Alive
    1191 C.E. Bray (France) Jews Burned Alive
    1195 C.E. France Property Confiscation
    1209 C.E. Beziers Massacre
    1215 C.E. Rome Jews Forced to Wear Badges
    1215 C.E. Toulouse (France) Mass Arrests
    1218 C.E. England Jews Forced to Wear Badges
    1231 C.E. Rome Inquisition Established
    1236 C.E. France Forced Conversion/Massacre
    1239 C.E. London Massacre & Property Confiscation
    1240 C.E. France Talmud Confiscated
    1240 C.E. England Book Burning
    1240 C.E. Spain Forced Conversion
    1242 C.E. Paris Talmud Burned
    1244 C.E. Oxford Mob Attacks
    1255 C.E. England Public Hangings
    1261 C.E. Canterbury Mob Attacks
    1262 C.E. London Mob Attacks
    1264 C.E. London Mob Attacks
    1267 C.E. Vienna Jews Forced to Wear Horned Hats
    1270 C.E. "Weissenberg, Magdeburg, Armstadt, Coblenz, Singzig, and Erfurt" Jews Burned Alive
    1278 C.E. Genoa (Spain) Mob Attacks
    1283 C.E. Mayence & Bacharach Mob Attacks
    1285 C.E. Munich Jews Burned Alive
    1290 C.E. England Expulsion
    1298 C.E. "Franconia, Bavaria & Austria" "100,000 Jews slaughtered underr command of German knight Rindfleisch"
    1306 C.E. France Expulsion by Philip the Fair (Same King who burned the Templars)
    1308 C.E. Strasbourg Jews Burned Alive
    1320 C.E. Toulouse & Perpigon 120 Communities Massacred & Talmud Burned
    1321 C.E. Teruel Public Executions
    1328 C.E. Estella "5,000 Jews Slaughtered"
    1348 C.E. France & Spain Jews Burned Alive
    1348 C.E. Switzerland Expulsion
    1349 C.E. "Worms, Strasbourg, Oppenheim, Mayence, Erfurt, Bavaria & Swabia" Jews Burned Alive
    1349 C.E. Heilbronn (Germany) Expulsion
    1349 C.E. Hungary Expulsion
    1349 C.E. Saxony Expulsion
    1354 C.E. Castile (Spain) "12,000 Jews Slaughtered"
    1360 C.E. Hungary Banned
    1368 C.E. Toledo "8,000 Jews Slaughtered"
    1370 C.E. Belgium Expulsion
    1370 C.E. "Majorca., Penignon & Barcelona" Mob Attack
    1377 C.E. Huesca (Spain) Jews Burned Alive
    1380 C.E. Paris Mob Attack
    1384 C.E. Nordlingen Mass Murder
    1388 C.E. Strasbourg Expulsion
    1389 C.E. Prague Mass Slaughter & Book Burning
    1391 C.E. "Castille, Toledo, Madrid, Seville, Cordova, Cuenca & Barcelona" Forced Conversions & Mass Murder
    1394 C.E. Germany Expulsion
    1394 C.E. France Expulsion
    1399 C.E. Posen (Poland) Jews Burned Alive
    1400 C.E. Prague Stake Burnings
    1407 C.E. Cracow Mob Attack
    1415 C.E. Rome Talmud Confiscated
    1420 C.E. Austria Expelled by Albrecht V
    1422 C.E. Austria Jews Burned Alive
    1422 C.E. Austria Expulsion
    1424 C.E. Fribourg & Zurich Expulsion
    1426 C.E. Cologne Expulsion
    1431 C.E. Southern Germany Jews Burned Alive
    1432 C.E. Savory Expulsion
    1438 C.E. Mainz Expulsion
    1439 C.E. Augsburg Expulsion
    1444 C.E. Netherlands Expulsion
    1449 C.E. Toledo Public Torture &. Burnings
    1453 C.E. Franconia Expulsion
    1453 C.E. Breslau Expulsion
    1453 C.E. Poland Citzenship revoked
    1454 C.E. Wurzburg Expulsion
    1456 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion
    1463 C.E. Cracow Mob Attack
    1473 C.E. Andalusia Mob Attack
    1480 C.E. Venice Jews Burned Alive
    1481 C.E. Seville Stake Burnings
    1484 C.E. "Cuidad Real, Guadalupe, Saragossa & Teruel" Jews Burned Alive
    1485 C.E. Vincenza (Italy) Expulsion
    1486 C.E. Toledo Jews Burned Alive
    1488 C.E. Toledo Stake Burnings
    1490 C.E. Toledo Public Executions
    1491 C.E. Astorga Public Torture & Execution
    1492 C.E. Sicily Expulsion
    1492 C.E. Spain Choice between Expulsion or Conversion (When the Rivero family became Catholic)
    1495 C.E. Lithuania Expulsion by Grand Duke Alexander
    1497 C.E. Portugal Expulsion
    1499 C.E. Germany Expulsion
    1506 C.E. Lisbon Mob Attack
    1510 C.E. Berlin Public Torture & Execution
    1510 C.E. Brandenberg Expulsion
    1510 C.E. Prussia Expulsion
    1514 C.E. Strasbourg Expulsion
    1519 C.E. Regensburg Expulsion
    1539 C.E. Cracow & Portugal Stake Burnings
    1540 C.E. Naples and Sardinia Expulsion
    1542 C.E. Bohemia Expulsion
    1550 C.E. Genoa and Venice Expulsion
    1551 C.E. Bavaria Expulsion
    1553 C.E. Rome Talmud burned
    1555 C.E. Pesaro Expulsion
    1556 C.E. Sokhachev (Poland) Public Torture & Execution
    1559 C.E. Austria Expulsion
    1561 C.E. Prague Expulsion
    1567 C.E. Wurzburg Expulsion
    1569 C.E. Italy and Papal States Expulsion
    1571 C.E. Brandenburg Expulsion
    1582 C.E. Hungary Banned a second time
    1582 C.E. Netherlands Expulsion
    1593 C.E. Brunswick Expulsion
    1593 C.E. "Brandenburg, Austria" Expulsion
    1593 C.E. Italy Banned a second time
    1597 C.E. "Cremona, Pavia & Lodi" Expulsion
    1614 C.E. Frankfort Expulsion
    1615 C.E. Worms Expulsion
    1619 C.E. Kiev Expulsion
    1635 C.E. Vilna Mob Attack
    1637 C.E. Cracow Public Torture & Execution
    1647 C.E. Lisbon Jews Burned Alive
    1648 C.E. Poland 1/3 of Jewry Slaughtered
    1649 C.E. Ukraine Expulsion
    1649 C.E. Hamburg Expulsion
    1652 C.E. Lisbon Stake Burnings
    1654 C.E. New Amsterdam Expulled by Peter Stuyvesant (order later retracted)
    1654 C.E. Little Russia Expulsion
    1656 C.E. Lithuania Expulsion
    1660 C.E. Seville Jews Burned Alive
    1663 C.E Cracow Public Torture &. Execution
    1664 C.E. Lemberg Mob Attack
    1669 C.E. Oran (North Africa) Expulsion
    1670 C.E. Vienna Expulsion
    1671 C.E. Minsk Mob Attacks
    1681 C.E. Vilna Mob Attacks
    1682 C.E. Marseilles Expulsion
    1682 C.E. Cracow Mob Attacks
    1687 C.E. Posen Mob Attacks
    1712 C.E. Sandomir Expulsion
    1727 C.E. Russia Expulsion
    1738 C.E. Wurtemburg Expulsion
    1740 C.E. Liule Russia Expulsion
    1744 C.E Hungary "Banned for the third time by Queen Maria Theresa. ""Henceforth, no Jew, no matter under what name, will be allowed to remain here without my written permission. I know of no other troublesome pest within the state than this race, which impoverishes the people by their fraud, usury and money-lending and commits all deeds which an honorable man despises. Subsequently, they have to be removed and excluded from here as much as possible."""
    1744 C.E. Livonia Expulsion
    1745 C.E. Moravia Expulsion by order of the King (to halt mob attacks on Jews)
    1753 C.E. Kovad (Lithuania) Expulsion
    1757 C.E. Kamenetz Talmud Burning
    1761 C.E. Bordeaux Expulsion
    1768 C.E. Kiev "3,000 Jews Slaughtered"
    1772 C.E. Russia Expulsion to the Pale of Settlement
    1775 C.E. Warsaw Expulsion
    1789 C.E. Alsace Expulsion
    1790 C.E. Morocco "Expulsion, villages destroyed"
    1801 C.E. Bucharest Mob Attack
    1804 C.E. Russian Villages Expulsion
    1808 C.E. Russian Countryside Expulsion
    1814 C.E. Norway Rescinds ban on Jews
    1815 C.E. Lubeck & Bremen Expulsion
    1815 C.E. "Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria" Expulsion
    1820 C.E. Bremes Expulsion
    1843 C.E. Austria & Prussia Expulsion
    1850 C.E. New York City "500 People, Led by Police, Attacked &. Wrecked, Jewish Synagogue"
    1862 C.E. United States Expelled by Ulysses S. Grant (order later retracted)
    1866 C.E Galatz (Romania) Expulsion
    1871 C.E. Odena Mob Attack
    1882 C.E. Russia "Laws banishing Jews relaxed under Alexander II. Following his assassination by a Jewish plot, expulsion of 1772 restored. "
    1887 C.E. Slovakia Mob Attacks
    1897 C.E. Kantakuzenka (Russia) Mob Attacks
    1898 C.E. Rennes (France) Mob Attack
    1899 C.E. Nicholayev Mob Attack
    1900 C.E. Konitz (Prussia) Mob Attack
    1902 C.E. Poland Widespread Pogroms
    1904 C.E. "Manchuria, Kiev & Volhynia" Widespread Pogroms
    1905 C.E. Zhitomir (Yolhynia) Mob Attacks
    1919 C.E Bavaria Expulsion
    1915 C.E. Georgia (U.S.A.) Leo Frank Lynched
    1919 C.E. Mongolia Pogrom
    1919 C.E. Prague Wide Spread Pogroms
    1920 C.E. Munich & Breslau Mob Attacks
    1922 C.E. "Boston, MA" "Lawrence Lowell, President of Harvard, calls for Quota Restrictions on Jewish Admission"
    1926 C.E. Uzbekistan Pogrom
    1928 C.E. Hungary Widespread Anti-Semitic Riots on University Campuses
    1929 C.E. Lemberg (Poland) Mob Attacks
    1930 C.E. Berlin Mob Attack
    1933 C.E. Bucharest Mob Attacks
    1933 C.E. Europe Immigrant Jews banned from citizenship.
    1935 C.E. Germany "Loss of citizenship, inprisonment in slave labor camps."
    1948 C.E. Libya Pogrom
    1969 C.E. Iraq Executions

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
    Israelis and Palestinians Injured in the Current Violence
    39,019 Palestinians and 8,864 Israelis
    have been injured since September 29, 2000.

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/injuries.html#source

    “With no shooting from the Palestinian side, and often little or no use of tear gas to disperse the protests, Israeli soldiers have repeatedly fired live ammunition into unarmed crowds.”

    - Shoot to Maim

    www.ifamericansknew.org

    ChasE writes

    Hey Phil,

    We're still waiting for your explanation as to why Jews get kicked out of every place they settle. When are you going to set the goyim straight?

    Come on, stop ducking the issue

    The above is a lie from the get-go as I will show.

    In 1264, King Boleslav of Poland granted a charter inviting the Jews there. The charter was an amazing document, granting Jews unprecedented rights and privileges

    Why were the Jews so necessary? First, they could read and write. Jews were always highly educated as they had to be literate to read and obey the Torah, and general education came along as part of the parcel. Second, Jews were excellent bankers, accountants, and administrators who knew how to keep the economy healthy. Poland prospered when the Jews arrived.

    After the Inqusition the displaced Jews from Spain were invited to Holland. In 1593 these Jews arrived in Amsterdam. and contributed to the prosperity of the country. The community was strong until Holland was over-run by the Germans

    So in 1264, King Boleslav of Poland granted a charter inviting the Jews there. The charter was an amazing document, granting Jews unprecedented rights and privileges.

    Another Polish king, Sigismund II Augustus, issued another invitation. Here is an excerpt from his edict, granting the Jews permission to open a yeshiva [ school] at Lublin, dated August 23, 1567:

    “As a result of the efforts of our advisors and in keeping with the request of the Jews of Lublin we do hereby grant permission to erect a yeshiva and to outfit said yeshiva with all that is required to advance learning. All the learned men and rabbis of Lublin shall come together for among their number they shall choose one to serve as the head of the yeshiva. Let their choice be a man who will magnify Torah and bring it glory.”

    The Jews prospered and Poland prospered and the largest Jewish community in Europe was created. The Cossacks, who could not even read, were not impressed and slaughtered over 100,000 educated Jews.

    Jews have settled in South America, Central America, North America etc and are cherished citizens

    One place that expelled its Jews and thereby paid a heavy price, is Nazi Germany. In the late 1930's Jewish scientists where forced out of Germany, Hungary and other Nazi controlled countries. Fortunately they came to America. Such that when Albert Einstein and others wrote that important letter to Roosevelt, warning him of the threat of an atom bomb from Germany, Roosevelt was able to marshal a team made mostly of Jewish scientists from Germany and start the Manhattan Project.

    2nd August, 1939, three Jewish scientists who had fled to the United States from Europe, Albert Einstein, Leo Szilard and Eugene Wigner, wrote a joint letter to President Franklin D. Roosevelt, about the developments that had been taking place in nuclear physics. They warned Roosevelt that scientists in Germany were working on the possibility of using uranium to produce nuclear weapons.

    Roosevelt responded by setting up a scientific advisory committee to investigate the matter. He also had talks with the British government about ways of sabotaging the German efforts to produce nuclear weapons. .

    In 1942 the Manhattan Engineer Project was set up in the United States under the command of Brigadier General Leslie Groves. Scientists recruited to produce an atom bomb included Robert Oppenheimer (USA), David Bohm (USA), Leo Szilard (Hungary), Eugene Wigner (Hungary), Rudolf Peierls (Germany), Otto Frisch (Germany), Felix Bloch (Switzerland), Niels Bohr (Denmark), James Franck (Germany), James Chadwick (Britain), Emilio Segre (Italy), Enrico Fermi (Italy), Klaus Fuchs (Germany) and Edward Teller (Hungary

    Eight of the above sientists are Jewish. Fermi was married to a Jew

    The war in Europe was over before the bomb was ready, but there is no doubt that if these scientists with their knowledge of nuclear physics

    had remained in Germany and helped there to construct a bomb, Germany would have won the race.and developed a bomb before us.

    Truman decided to use the bomb in the war in the Pacific and thereby saved an estimated 500,000 American lives of soldiers that would have died in an invasion of Japan.

    So ChasE , truth seeker, Anna D ,Greg and Carlo can thank the Jewish scientists that their goyisha ass wasn't blown to bits and that Hitler's hatred of Jews was so intense that he shot himself in the leg and cut his 1000 year empire short when he expelled them.


    I would like to invite the viewers to go to the web sites as suggested by ChasE. The size of the hole supposedly created by Israeli missile is enormous. Do you believe that such an enormus crater could have been created without destruction of the surrounding buildings? These buildings are UNDAMAGED
    The photo is obviously a fake as is most of what ChasE is feeding you.
    Hamas are experts at generating fakery and ChasE is eating it up and spreading it around.


    Sure...Awamori...sure. The IDF were using Palestinian children as human shields.

    http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story12098.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAU8N-TQEdA

    As if the Palestinian adults were saying, "Go with the nice IDF soldier."

    HAMAS started this with their bombs?

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/anyquestions.php

    Pop rockets purchased at South of the Border. An Israeli gets a hang nail and they scream amputation.

    Highly exaggerated!

    Goldstone`s biased report which ignores the realities of the new terror war based on suicide and the desire to have the enemy kill as many of ones countrymen as possible for PR purposes. The rules of war have changed, and so should "the rules of war" Goldstone should have pointed this out, and left the UN and the international community to work out new rules, rather than to judge on the basis of old outdated realities.

    What we mourned in Gaza was an urban warfare, which is always nasty, which is always very dangerous for everyone around it, and which, inevitably, results in unintended deaths, both friendly fire and civilian. But for that, you can thank Hamas for firing from civilian areas, dressing in civilian clothes while fighting, boobytrapping houses and public buildings, shooting mortars from the vicinity of schools and generally turning Gazan urban dwellers into human shields. It's VERY difficult to fight an enemy that does so without endangering some of the actual civilians.

    I watched in dismay as Bill seemed to try to equate the Israeli brutality with the actions of the Palestineans. The Israelis broke the cease fire, there were no rockets being fired, the attack was another calculated brutal and collective action by Israel on an illegally occupied people. I assume Bill knows this and was asking the tough questions to seem fair but there were no Iraelis killed by Palestinians for the 5 months leading to Israel breaking the cease fire, then there four Israelis killed. Israel then killed 465 Palestinians and wounded thousands more in December alone. These are the actions of a terrorist, war criminal government, plain and simple. I would hope that Bill would update his report - including the bombing od schools and hospitals, and show this Israeli government for what it really is.

    I am a big fan of Bill but I find it odd of how much he questioned Goldstone as if he was lying or wrong. His questioning was very negative. With the intro showing all the places hes done work at, why does it seem to be not right when he is accusing Israel of something. Israel hides behind religion to do its dirty work, and puts a bad name on its history.

    I have twice posted a rebuttal of phil's smear of Husseini. Despite it being simply a reasoned and well referenced post containing no invective, it has been blocked by the moderator.

    I invite Bill or his moderator to view the post:

    http://brewerstroupe.blogspot.com/2009/10/bill-moyers-bought.html

    ....and comment.

    I'm not going to attempt to address the other comments in this thread, but I still wanted to add my thoughts after listening to this as a podcast. Although the recent conflict in Israel as discussed in the interview is heart wrenching, discovering someone as even handed, principled and fair as Judge Goldstone was enlightening to me, and restored some of my faith in humanity. This investigation as far as I can tell appears to have been approached quite fairly, and took a great deal of courage on Judge Goldstone's part. That sounds like someone seeking justice to me. We need more people like Judge Goldstone in the world.

    carlo: Thank you so much for asking. Figgers often refer to community fascists as macoutes in honor of the tonton macoutes who so vicsiously and sadistically served Papa and Baby Doc in Haiti. Very much related are the "capos" who similarly served National Socialism's ethnic and dissenter's cleanout before and during WWII. Capos were co-opted compromisers who bought time and concessions by turning in or rounding up or disciplining fellow Jews and dissenters. They served intermediary roles even in the camps, doing the nasty parts of extermination work or entertaining the "masterrace" with sadistic acts as requested or supervising enslaved production work for the Nazi war effort.

    Capos (though maybe later recognized as a wholesale case of Stockholm Syndrome) are a primary problem in the analysis of Hannah Ahrendt's insightful theory of banal evil. Does the insurance case manager enjoy cutting off eligible claimants or is she doing her coerced duty to her employer who feeds her and pretends to also insure her? Kafka asked these questions in 3 novels as did Camus later. You really wonder what percentage of us are in charge of our own bodies when you examine the preponderance of predatory employment in behalf of the oligarchy (Nazi successors) these days.

    Now, as for the case of Israeli Defense Force crimes these questions also pertain. Half of Nazism's 12.5 million camp victims were nominal Jews, and this fact is being used to cloud behavioral issues. (It is also connected to the Biblical myth; misapplied.) As with the United States, the nature of war crimes originates at the political apex and many of the actors are banals or automatons lacking moral consciousness; in short, capos by default. (Someone picks white phosphorous incendiaries and dime bombs and cluster bombs from the good old USA MacDonalds menu: The tanks proceed through the drivethrough: And we witness "the consequences.") Particular sociopaths are selected to ping-pong hapless civilians in a shooting gallery, but the word has trickled down.( Oswald is never alone.) The only thing special about Israel is real estate (location-location-location) and the monthly rent paid for that storefront by American taxpayers.

    Why did I bring poor little Ed Fallon into this? I don't want to discuss Israel. I am a Meso-American specialist and Fallon worked with the Siamese in Thailand. But when one looks at the three things Ed told me when I was his student (see earlier post)it is hard to deny their applicability.

    There will always be voicers of politically correct humanitarian speech who act in their private lives as banals or macoutes or even capos, in order to "make a living."
    And their will always be the mercenary knowing macoutes like poor small phil (other examples present) whose occupation is to stubbornly broadcast a hardline of propaganda to the already ill-informed American populace. None of either stance are applying empathy or tolerance, or have any real desire to see justice done. You're only howling like wolves.

    I may not be much better than these (for I have yet to make my ultimate demonstrative sacrifice) , but at least I, and my gravely ill friend Grady, advocate for the right of the American taxpayer to deny the use of our personal assessed levy to supply, or even to fabricate, insidious weapons like land mines, cluster bombs, dime bombs and phosphorous incendiaries that warcriminals will use (inevitably) upon unarmed and even captive people. Some acts cannot be mitigated by convoluted and clever argument. Stop insulting the victims. Shut the f**K up before securing your own dire fate, ye who do not know what you do.

    And so I ask carlo again: "How many capos have you met today?" (Are you in charge of your own body and its actions?)

    I agree that the "christian zionists", always ready to hate, themselves, and still smarting from the demise of slavery in USA, are supposedly the "muscle". But if you look at the "muscle", they're in it for the money - paid mercenaries....already identified as every bit of a threat to USA citizens as all these foreign agents...

    One billion Moslems, one billion Christians, one billion Chinese (betcha Phil is not brow beating anyone in China in regards to how they took care of a gang of Moslems in their country recently), one billion in India - that's a lot of public relations campaigns to convince half of the planet's cultures about "existential" threats...good luck, Phil!

    Is it "blaming" some cult unjustly if a simple psychological observation is made...? I'll take the chance....here goes - since the access to the world wide web in USA is completely curtailed (uh, sure, it's all the pretty pictures - China take note) your average aol "consumer" has no clue what "perception is reality" is out there in "third world countries" - basically EVERYONE wants to get on the welfare list that Israel is on and it seems like the more of a "problem child" you can be, the more POWER and money to protect the shenanigans. So all the other "semites" want the same access to $$$ as Israel has and it looks like perpetual war is the best way to get rich.

    C'mon, Phil, earn your pay. You're so boring and unoriginal anymore - all cut and paste stuff that if typed into "google" - millions of sites come up with the same phraseology "argument" - how about culling 5000 years of your re-written history and PROVE the "chosen ones" are civilization builders...c'mon, just ONE historical reference to when you didn't depend on "bouncers", slaves and holy men...?

    Phil has yet again tried to divert attention away from teh questions at hand, and is now raising the possibility of Muslims taking over Holland and France. Classic zionist tactic, and what that has to do with Palestinians, many of whom are CHRISTIAN, I have no idea.

    So Phil, why don't you stop posting here, go join the IDF and go kill yourself some of them there nasty Ay-Rabs? Oh that's, right, you and your kind are working on the Christian zionists to do the dirty work for you.

    BTW, was that you that planted those bottle rockets inside the Lebanon border pointed back at Israel as a means of diverting attention away from the Goldstone report?

    And you STILL haven't answered the question about Jews getting kicked out of everywhere they settle? You must have been a very impressive dodge ball player as a kid.

    I wrote in an earlier post that it wont be long before the Muslims in Holland and France demand self-determination and Sharia Law.
    Followed by demands for succession.
    Look what appeared in USA Today Nov 29


    "The leader of what federal authorities describe as an Islamic separatist group was shot and killed Wednesday during a series of raids in Dearborn and Detroit that resulted in 10 other men being charged, according to a joint statement from the FBI and U.S. Attorney's Office.
    Luqman Ameen Abdullah, 53, also known as Christopher Thomas, was gunned down after refusing to surrender and opening fire when the FBI raided a Dearborn warehouse, FBI spokeswoman Sandra Berchtold said.

    The complaint describes Abdullah as "a highly placed leader of a nationwide radical fundamentalist Sunni group consisting primarily of African Americans, some of whom converted to Islam while they were serving sentences in various prisons across the United States." The group calls itself "Ummah" and "seeks to establish a separate Sharia-law (Islamic) governed state" within the U.S., the news release states.

    Shouldn't be long before the Israeli haters find a way to blame this on the Jews.
    Get busy guys

    Phil wrote, in part, "Senior Hamas commanders also set up a command center in a Red Crescent Society clinic in Khan Yunis and used it as a detention center."

    Well, Phil, who BUILT the clinic...? People don't have a right to meet in a building that they own?

    Israel has so completely LOST the public relations sympathy that you better seriouusly consider that the NORMAL Judge Goldstone is trying to save the hide of Israel.

    Your PRETENSE at intelligence with factoids is what made Israel lose the sympathy of the world.

    Go get psychotherapy instead of inflicting psycho babble on EVERYONE in the USA who has been trying to save the USA's economy, environment, government, SANITY for the past decade in great earnest. All pro-USA citizens have met the same fate at the hands of PAID agents like you sent out into virtual reality from the "liebermans" who have ABUSED the resources of Homeland Insecurity to create one big "anti-semite" list now carefully adhered to by the political plant in charge of the Federal Office of Personnel Management - "no soup for you"...

    Seriously, take your hand off the levers of LIFE in USA.

    While all these BOGUS unemployment numbers at being conjured up - even finance people are asking for the SOURCE of the raw data - we all know that VICIOUS minorities are disproportionately ADVANTAGED because of those "anti-wha'ever" lists.

    There IS no fact that can change public opinion from "they're all completely insane with HATRED" to my oh my, I did not know that about Hamas people meeting in CLINICS that they built and actually DO provide "health care" for their people without "insurance companies", eh? See what I mean - even HAMAS is doing what Lieberman refuses to do for the "working poor" that were ROBBED of all $$$ so that Israel could be "protected".

    I've been on that anti-semite list since the day I was BORN, so don't bother, Phil, with slamming me on it now.

    BTW, Grandpa (WWII concentration camp survivor - not jewish, gypsy, or gay) is celebrating 98 years of living. He's had terrible health care "benefits" from his USA employers....go figure....and I've paid in enough to cover the cost of anti virals for HIV "chosen ones" in Israel - since SO MUCH $$$ left USA, Israel might want to think "preventative" which means "quarantine" and stop sending over infected "agents" here to USA - god knows what "respect" they show goyim women...no doubt some get on the "anti-semite" list for just saying "no", huh?

    Hamas builds clinics...?

    Let me guess, they built the clinics just so they could meet in them as "war rooms"...?

    It is apparent that many people read the reports of supposed Israeli transgressions and swallow it hook-line and sinker.
    For example the number of noncombatants supposedly killed was large but if we investigate we find from Wikepedia...[References are shown by numbers]


    Several reports stated that Hamas fighters shed their uniforms shortly after the start of the ground incursion.[184][185][186][187][188] Reports said that unwilling to come into the open space, Hamas militants are fighting in civilian clothes; even the police have been reportedly ordered to take off their uniforms.[103] An eyewitness to the only incident investigated by the UN mission that clearly involved Palestinian combatants said that three Palestinian fighters Israeli troops had surrounded in his neighbour's house were, "wearing military camouflage and headbands of the al-Qassam Brigades."[189] The UN Mission did note that reports by other human rights groups indicate that not all members of Palestinians armed groups were always dressed in military uniform.[189] In another instance Hamada Al-Samouni, a survivior of the Zeitoun incident, said he had seen the bodies of eight Hamas fighters dressed in civilian clothing lying in the streets around Zeitoun.[190

    Then there is the accusations of hospitals under attack by Israel From Wikpedia...

    IDF probes opened following the offensive discovered that Haniyeh and other senior Hamas commanders took over a ward of the hospital, the Gaza Strip's largest, and set up a command center for the duration of the campaign.

    Hamas believed that Israel would not target the hospital due to the high risk of collateral damage.

    Guards were posted at the entrance to the ward and field commanders took advantage of the humanitarian corridor and cessation of action that the IDF instituted every day for several hours, to enter the hospital and meet with senior Hamas officials to receive instructions.

    Senior Hamas commanders also set up a command center in a Red Crescent Society clinic in Khan Yunis and used it as a detention center.

    With regards to the destruction of farmlands I suspect what happened is that Israeli forces set up and encampment in some farmland and to protect the troops from mines and booby-traps it went over the ground with land graders. Its what every commander would do to protect his soldiers.

    Wikepedia places the number of homes destroyed and damaged at 4000, not the 20,000 figure that Greg has come up with

    Everything is not what it first appears...


    "Why does Israel do this? Will these war crimes make Palestinians friendlier?"

    "Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East." -- John Sheehan, S.J. (a Jesuit priest)

    Please see the facts and not the Israel spin.
    The Gaza war and the blockades targets civilians in the most cruel and inhuman way.
    215 factories and workshops were destroyed, in addition to an estimated 20,000 homes left uninhabitable. 60 percent of Gaza's cement plants are now inoperable and a third of all metal workshops were destroyed. Airstrikes also targeted the territory's largest flour mill, wiping out 10,000 tons of wheat, as well as its Pepsi-Cola bottling plant and the locally made rival, Mecca Cola. Now Israel is blocking basic necessities and humanitarian aid. As of 3-5-09, 50,000 people still did not have access to piped water and another 100,000 were only receiving water every 7-10 days, reported Gaza's Coastal Municipalities Water Utility. The territory's electricity utility, GEDCO, said that 10 percent of Gaza's 1.5 million people were not receiving electricity at all and the remainder of the population was receiving only intermittent power. Why does Israel do this? Will these war crimes make Palestinians friendlier?

    Goldstone ignored, this as well, though I'm sure Phil will claim it is a hoax:

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=235878

    The incident began when Israeli soldiers and armored vehicles demolished a water reservoir

    jack martin, would you care to explain what you mean?
    thanks

    Hey Phil,

    We're still waiting for your explanation as to why Jews get kicked out of every place they settle. When are you going to set the goyim straight?

    Come on, stop ducking the issue.

    Posted by: ChasE

    Wrong question - how can a cult that has NEVER been competant enough (thousands of years of even re-written history to cull for clues) to BUILD a country try to leap frog into being the "chosen ones" to rule the whole planet...?!!!

    SOme of us still living in "land" reality are shoulder deep digging out quagga that some Chinese tanker ship dropped off along with the rest of the cheap crap in the Detroit area which in turn hitched a ride with a snow bird's boat and now is threatening to choke off Lalaland's water supply from the Colorado River....then there is the "exotic" disease that is increasingly prevelant because of all the South American immigrants with that parasite in their system and NOT A SINGLE drug is in development for eradicating parasites!

    GLOBAL consequences that are so real and WERE EXPECTED by everyone except the delusional "chosen ones" who all of a sudden are acting like they are LEADERS in "environment" PROTECTION.

    In light of all this REALITY, even "justice" is IRRELEVANT as a "cause"...

    Criminals are NOT competant as "chosen ones" GLOBAL leaders - no matter how much "gold" they flash and how many bloggers come on this site to decry a NORMAL minded Judge in their cult midst.

    I don't have the emotional make up to have ANY "feelings" about the situation. It's too crazy and twanging on any string of the emotional "harp" is actually emotional abuse.

    Horror was always horrible enough to the NORMALS of the human species that it never became an "abstraction"!

    Who in their right mind would show up at ANY of the rebuilt civilizations of Eurasia after the Roman Empire "fell" flashing "gold" and saying "We are the God's CHosen Ones" who have come to rule YOU...really?! That won't p-ss everyone off...?? Smart enough to build the civilization but too stupid for "God" to choose us...?!!

    C'mon...this is NOT normal and we better hope that there is a NORMAL...


    carlo: Met any good "capos" lately? They're all around us.

    For the record, Phil tells only half the truth, that part which suits his views.

    Yes, the Grand Mufti turned to Hitler for help. There is no secret here. He was trying to get the help of the enemy of his enemy, which then was the UK government. The disgraceful Balfour declaration gave the Jews a land settled by Palestinians and belonging to the Ottoman empire. Quite a feat.
    So, the Grand Mufti did what every politician does, join forces with his enemy's enemy.
    What is less known and more curious is that "In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "transferring" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine." This is from Wikipedia and Lehi is of course the most brutal of the Zionist gangs operating in Mandate Palestine. It is curious that the Brits managed to enrage both Palestinians and Jews, the hate of these latter being rather incredible since the UK government was crucial in the establishment of Israel.

    A very wise young man named Ed Fallon told me three things in 1983 I'll always remember.

    1.Horrific and unjust events, and general corruption in the US colonial realm are the high amplitude shadow of similar events occurring domestically.

    2.The US style of development suspends political access far above the heads of a client people like high tension electrical transmission lines above the homes of the masses who lack reliable service. (This truth seems especially evident in health care reform and the Wall Street bailout. The wires are evidently not hooked up in Afghan elections either.)

    3.When powerful people want a certain piece of real estate, for whatever reason, they send colonists who take on all the risk of conflict with the natives. Over time, sentiment is mobilized for increasing support of the colonists until the natives are co-opted, enslaved or eradicated.

    I am not casting Ed's "book" just yet, but if you recognize yourself, or any of your favorite characters, you could let me know.

    P.S. Ed was the kind of teacher who couldn't keep a job long, and who never had his thesis accepted (due to controversy). Despite the fact that he was the most talented thinker I ever had as a college instructor he is probably working (unless unemployed)on commission at a Caterpillar dealership these days. And this is how our culture steps on its own dingus.

    Bill...you posited: "While the resulting ‘Goldstone Report’ concluded that both sides had committed war crimes and, potentially, crimes against humanity, it was especially harsh in its condemnation of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for their actions in Gaza, saying that they were “a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate, and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability.”"

    Was that less harsh than, say, white phosphorous dropped on a civilian population?

    This interview was very balanced and interesting, however for me I have a problem that the Geneva conventions and its updates and the current interpretations of laws arising therfrom are, because they have become out of date, with the type and method of international war; that AL Qaeda and the Taliban or other terrorist groups fight.
    It means they use the Geneva conventions and rules to create certain for sure collateral damage i.e mosques and schools and hospitals fequently store weapons and arms and also manufacture IED's
    There is enough real evidence of this in Iraq Afghanistan and Pakistan and whether it was true in Gaza remains unanswered to me despite the judges best efforts. But I do agree with him that ploughing up agricultural fields is extremely difficult to justify.
    Just a thought, but it still did look over aggressive to me, but war is abominable, no such thing as fair war!!
    Regards,
    Hodgson.

    Also Phil, just wondering, is that "fake" video shot by that British videographer that was shot to death by the IDF while carrying a white flag?

    I'll start seeing Israel in a favorable light when I stop seeing the Palestinian map shrinking.

    Hey Phil,

    We're still waiting for your explanation as to why Jews get kicked out of every place they settle. When are you going to set the goyim straight?

    Come on, stop ducking the issue.

    Bill
    You should be advised that the incident you mention in your post

    "I have seen video of a Palestinian man pinned down, with his wounded son bleeding to death in his arms, waving at Israeli soldiers to stop shooting at him. I feel the same sadness, the same shame, at both images"

    Is a complete sham. It is a fraud perpetrated on the public by a Palestinian camera man and French television. It has been proven a lie by a French court. You can see this for yourself by Googling the name of the boy Mohammad Al Dura and researching the whole sad affair. What is sad about it is that the world press picked it up and repeated the lie. It was of course believed unconditionaly in the Arab world and was responsible for the beheading of Daniel Pearl. What is even sadder is that ChasE who purports to be a Middle East expert did not mention this in his post to you.
    ChasE would undoubtedly choke before he would relate anything which shows Israel in a favorable light
    It is the reason why anything emanating from him and his cohorts is by definition, suspect

    Will:

    A) How many years has it been since a "Palestinian" blew up a bus?

    B) These Jews are not of Middle Eastern descent. They are Eastern European. Therefore, they are not returning to any land that belongs to them.

    In fact, there was already a Jewish state formed before Israel:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/russiatoday?blend=1&ob=4#p/search/23/U3vhaM58ohU

    So why the insistence of a Middle East homeland? OIL!

    A number of posters have expressed concern with regards to the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. Suffering or extinction of the Israeli's would be OK because they brought it on themselves would be their argument. The logic is that Hertzl , David Ben Gurion, the Stern Gang etc did things that caused the Jews to suffer and the Palestinians merely protected their olive trees and houses from confiscation. Simply not true.
    In 1941 pro-Nazi Palestinian nationalist leader Hajj Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem, arrived in Berlin, along with many other Palestinian leaders, as a guest of the German Nazi regime. He worked in several capacities for the triumph of the Nazi "new order:" he directed propaganda beamed to the Arabs of the Middle East and North Africa as well as Muslims in Asia to elicit rebellion and sabotage against the Allied powers; he was the linchpin for the Nazi espionage network in the Middle East and organizer of saboteurs who were spirited into the area; he organized an Arab Legion to serve with the German Army, and was active recruiting Muslim SS divisions in the Balkans and occupied Russia.

    Al-Hussayni asked Adolf Hitler, the Nazi Fuehrer (leader), to apply the same methods against the Jews of the Middle East then being directed against Europe’s Jews

    That is, if Germany had won the war the Jews of the Middle East would be extinguished. Note, that this occured in 1941, Long before the establishment of Israel.
    So if it would be OK for Jews to suffer for the alleged wrong doings of people that preceded them why should the Palestinians get a free pass when they backed the wrong horse and would have be delighted if with Germany's help they were able to extinguish every Jew in the Middle East. And this was 7 years before Israel was born
    .
    The Jews that immmigrated to the British Mandate before 1941 were escaping death and had nowhere else to go. They wanted a new life. Not too different then the Muslims now immigrating to Holland, France and Norway now. These Muslims will buy some land or start a business and plan a new life in a foreign land. Now we hear noises that they want to be governed by Sharia law not the laws of their host country. How long will it be before they demand "self determination" and move for succession from the host country. Not long I'll wager.
    I wonder what our paragons of justice on this blog will have to say then.


    I am not Jewish, I have read and own the Torah. I have tremendous regard and respect for the Jewish religion. I believe that wisdom comes by suffering, and I think the Jews as a people embody that, though that is not a justification for suffering.
    I also believe that in a certain sense that fascism won WW2. This country saved Nazi's that were useful to us. McCarthyism plagued this country as the Nazi hatred and fear-mongering had in Germany, and this same poison infected the people who have formed the state of Israel.
    A Palestinian blowing up a bus is terrorism, but so is an Israeli helicopter indiscriminately firing rockets into neighborhoods. Just because one side is a recognized nation doesn't lessen the terrorism.
    I have seen video of the Munich tragedy, I have seen video of a Palestinian man pinned down, with his wounded son bleeding to death in his arms, waving at Israeli soldiers to stop shooting at him. I feel the same sadness, the same shame, at both images.
    I have wondered if 6 million Jews was the price God commanded for Jews to be able to go home again. It is a terrible price, too much of a sacrifice for any land, even the holy land, but I wonder if the price was even far greater than 6 million lives, if the price included losing what had sustained the Jews through the tyranny of Czars, Kings, Caliphs, and Pontiffs. If the price included becoming what you hated, becoming like the Nazis.
    I love the Jewish perspective for being able to see many viewpoints, and yet Israel has lost that ability.
    If the country does not reflect the values and wishes of the people, as is true here in our country, then what is the point? Who is it serving?

    typo correction.

    Might does NOT make right. Might may have the power and armaments to win but that still does not make might right.

    Defense is a wonderful thing. Turning defense into aggression happens when a person or a country goes beyond acceptable boundaries. Israel has gone too far. They're wrong. Its that simple.

    Might does NOT make right. Might make have the power and armaments to win but that still doesn't make might right.

    Defense is a wonderful thing. Turning defense into aggression happens when a person or a country goes beyond acceptable boundaries. Israel has gone too far. They're wrong. Its that simple.

    It appears that the Zionist smear campaing has reached these boards. Questioning everyone's mental health is criticizes Israel. Well, I question the sanity of people who believe in a book written over 2,000 years ago who believe that an unseen God talked to them in whirlwinds and burning bushes, to promise land to them, and declared them "chosen".

    Now that is just plain crazy talk, and the world teeters on the brink of disaster because of it.

    Dear Bill Moyers: I'm a longtime listener to NOW. In comment about Mr Goldstone: Hear's my take on why he took the job of investigating war crimes of Israel and Palestine. I don't believe that no one else would take the job. I believe that Mr Goldstone took the job because he knew that if the Palestinians would be investigated and prosecuted for crimes like Israel, they would drop the charges. That is exactly what happened today. Too bad the Palestinian authorities haven't figured out that the Geneva Conventions allows any illegally occupied country to take whatever measures it must to rid itself of its occupier--without being held accountable for war crimes. I'd like to hear some feedback on this on your next program.

    Israel is a defacto terrorist state. It was conceived and established through terrorism as a means of depopulating the Semetic population.
    Israel was established as a protectorate for the worlds criminal Zionist oligarchs.
    Israel is high in the export and manufacture of drugs, particularly ecstasy, white slavery of E European women, illegal organ trafficking, arms export to areas of civil unrest, a refuge for pedophiles and bank schemers.
    The years of propaganda have rendered the individuals mind useless in seeing through the reality of what Israel truly is.
    A world without Israel would certainly be a better place. Israel was a grand project of the Rothschild family and the Sabbatean Frankists, all roots of evil and purveyers of world rule by the deluded 'Chosen Ones'.

    Posted by: DocReality


    Makes sense that on such a little spit of land (water has to come from Lebanon) the populace can only survive by accessing, in one way or another, what the rest of the world produces in the way of life maintenance.

    Meaning, its "existential" existence has to depend on on activity that REAL, large geographic countries like Iran, China and Russia, for instance, for the most part, do not NEED to engage in as 50% or more of its "economy" - stuff like offering sanctuary catering to the Noveau Riche (drugs, slaves, weapons etc.).

    As for the "genius" that produces so many "nobel prize" winners, THAT sell is easily disproved by the huge volume of patent lawsuits AND the increasing hysteria to use the Supreme Court of the USA as a tool for "owning" all thought under the personhood of "corporation".

    Germany and "Jews" fought over who is "the chosen ones".

    Judge Goldstone may be indulging in the "conceit" of "mercy", but what is being noticed by the rest of the world, is how people like the brave Natalie who shared her real thoughts with us, fail to appreciate the SANITY of his approach to an entrenched problem.

    Still don't get why making Mr. Moyers a scapegoat from this interview is a political ploy?

    But I'm sure it is just me. I never understood the fascination with figuring out "crazy". "Crazy" is irrelevant to life-maintenance.

    American newspapers are irrelevant. The boob tube holds less and less sway, especially ABCNBCCBC news.

    And Moyers has just hammered the last nail in the coffin of so-called public tv. Thanks Bill.

    The american mainstream media is writhing and gurgling its last breath after aiding & abetting all manner of criminal for decades.

    Punishment enough? Perhaps...

    ChasE:

    French tv channel 2 was preparing to do a show debating the official 9-11 story.

    One one side were to be a French comedian Bigard who's done a series entitled: Things I Think Strange about the Official Story" and 4 others (Laurent, Harrit and Kassovitz) all equally well-equipped to debunk the official BS.

    On the other side? No one. They could find no one who would sit in this debate to DEFEND the official story!

    (Crickets chirping)

    The show will go on, nevertheless, with the 4 who have the facts to shred the official story.

    The same thing is happening here.

    Nat,Phil,Benson etc. cannot debate without ad hominem attacks. They can't argue the FACTS and so they run away or call us "crazies."

    Low blows from cowards are to be expected.

    b
    911=USrael

    So now, rather than answer the questions, Phil, Everett and Natalie have moved on to questioning our mental health. That's another grasp for straws. you cannot answer the question Phi.

    Nice diversion, nice try Phil, Everett, Natalie. But it is your delusional, paranoid thinking that has the world on edge when considering "Israel's destruction" or elimination or whatever you want to call it.

    The fact is, you justify the killing of innocent Palestinians, who are suffering as a result of the holocaust, which is not their fault. Yet, you allow the perpetuating of their suffering when your own people have suffered in kind.

    Phil, Natalie and Everett are three perfect examples of the zionistic mentality. They are above the law, we are merely subserviant goyim.

    I find it interesting that all of a sudden, rockets are being fired into Israel from Lebanon. That's quite handy and timely. Just the diversion Israel needs to deflect attention away from the Goldstone report. Interesting, just the same way that Phil, Everett and Natalie avoid the questions presented to them by questioning are mental health.

    Natalie: Sorry to hear you have trouble concentrating; however, others do here not.

    Try to tune this out:

    "Absent an Israeli strategy able to sustain serial crises, a long-deceived public will awaken to the common source of the fixed intelligence that led us into the last war—and now seeks to induce the next. As Americans awaken to how this duplicity proceeds in plain sight, they will see for themselves who and why.

    That knowledge is the threat that Tel Aviv most fears. As the facts become known, Israeli legitimacy will no longer be an issue. The only issue will be how best to dis-arm these extremists and how to hold accountable those lawmakers who enable this ongoing treason."

    Jeff Gates is a Vietnam veteran, widely acclaimed author

    As Phil or someone said the idiots speak for themselves and as I said long before, this is all I will state on this matter. Phil and some others are eloquent in their posts.

    I can agree on only one thing. Horrific acts against human beings have occurred on BOTH sides. However, when you are faced with the possibility of extinction the struggle becomes existential.

    Israel has to do what it has to do and my mostly liberal heart has to work on hardening to that fact when very survival is at stake. Long posts do nothing. People tune them out including my own. So I will TRULY end MY discussion of this. Am Yisrael Chai!

    What if it is all a "hoax" what Natalie believes...?

    From the hoax "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion":


    MONOPOLY CAPITAL

    7. Capital, if it is to co-operate untrammeled, must be free to establish a monopoly of industry and trade: this is already being put in execution by an unseen hand in all quarters of the world. This freedom will give political force to those engaged in industry, and that will help to oppress the people. Nowadays it is more important to disarm the peoples than to lead them into war: more important to use for our advantage the passions which have burst into flames than to quench their fire: more important to eradicate them. THE PRINCIPLE OBJECT OF OUR DIRECTORATE CONSISTS IN THIS: TO DEBILITATE THE PUBLIC MIND BY CRITICISM; TO LEAD IT AWAY FROM SERIOUS REFLECTIONS CALCULATED TO AROUSE RESISTANCE; TO DISTRACT THE FORCES OF THE MIND TOWARDS A SHAM FIGHT OF EMPTY ELOQUENCE.

    8. In all ages the people of the world, equally with individuals, have accepted words for deeds, for THEY ARE CONTENT WITH A SHOW and rarely pause to note, in the public arena, whether promises are followed by performance. Therefore we shall establish show institutions which will give eloquent proof of their benefit to progress.

    9. We shall assume to ourselves the liberal physiognomy of all parties, of all directions, and we shall give that physiognomy a VOICE IN ORATORS WHO WILL SPEAK SO MUCH THAT THEY WILL EXHAUST THE PATIENCE OF THEIR HEARERS AND PRODUCE AN ABHORRENCE OF ORATORY.

    10. IN ORDER TO PUT PUBLIC OPINION INTO OUR HANDS WE MUST BRING IT INTO A STATE OF BEWILDERMENT BY GIVING EXPRESSION FROM ALL SIDES TO SO MANY CONTRADICTORY OPINIONS AND FOR SUCH LENGTH OF TIME AS WILL SUFFICE TO MAKE THE "GOYIM" LOSE THEIR HEADS IN THE LABYRINTH AND COME TO SEE THAT THE BEST THING IS TO HAVE NO OPINION OF ANY KIND IN MATTERS POLITICAL, which it is not given to the public to understand, because they are understood only by him who guides the public. This is the first secret.

    11. The second secret requisite for the success of our government is comprised in the following: To multiply to such an extent national failings, habits, passions, conditions of civil life, that it will be impossible for anyone to know where he is in the resulting chaos, so that the people in consequence will fail to understand one another. This measure will also serve us in another way, namely, to sow discord in all parties, to dislocate all collective forces which are still unwilling to submit to us, and to discourage any kind of personal initiative which might in any degree hinder our affair. THERE IS NOTHING MORE DANGEROUS THAN PERSONAL INITIATIVE: if it has genius behind it, such initiative can do more than can be done by millions of people among whom we have sown discord. We must so direct the education of the GOYIM communities that whenever they come upon a matter requiring initiative they may drop their hands in despairing impotence. The strain which results from freedom of actions saps the forces when it meets with the freedom of another. From this collision arise grave moral shocks, disenchantments, failures. BY ALL THESE MEANS WE SHALL SO WEAR DOWN THE "GOYIM" THAT THEY WILL BE COMPELLED TO OFFER US INTERNATIONAL POWER OF A NATURE THAT BY ITS POSITION WILL ENABLE US WITHOUT ANY VIOLENCE GRADUALLY TO ABSORB ALL THE STATE FORCES OF THE WORLD AND TO FORM A SUPER-GOVERNMENT. In place of the rulers of to-day we shall set up a bogey which will be called the Super-Government Administration. Its hands will reach out in all directions like nippers and its organization will be of such colossal dimensions that it cannot fail to subdue all the nations of the world.

    Truthseeker, babette,ChasE

    I really want to thank you for your posts. To any sane person your posts reveal your twisted logic that sane people have to put up with, You all suffer from an incurable disease of hatred. The disease is obvious to anyone you come in contact with and I am sorry to say is contagious. The Jews have faced this hatred before and survived. We will do so again

    Phil, no need even to bother to respond to the raving lunatics. They condemn themselves out of their own mouths. They throw up a cloud of irrelevancies and red herrings, slurs and slanders of any and all sorts, and thus reveal to any decent person just what they are. In fact, they should be allowed to expose themselves in this way. They shoot themselves in their own feet. The flecks of spittle from their ravings fall on themselves.

    It is like the Palestinian claim that Israel infiltrates chewing gum into the West Bank and Gaza to make teenagers sex-obsessed, due to supposed aphrodisiac qualities infused into the gum. I like that nutty myth; it really shows them up (almost as much as their officially promulgated claim that there never was a Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount, only a Muslim mosque going back, even Arafat said at Camp David in 2000, to the time of Adam). After all, this supposed Israeli plot would of course mean that the Palestinian birth rates would stay very high (actually they have been falling drastically over the past generation), which has been a chief goal of Palestinians: to out-reproduce Jews.

    Anyway, one cannot argue with intentional and malicious idiocy. As for the red herrings, one would not guess from the antisemitic commentators that the topic is the Goldstone Report. Therefore there is no need to refute their endless inventions and irrelevancies.

    Babette, you forgot this glaring example:

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/einstein.htm

    They are killing Jesus' family, who, by the way, are truly Semitic people.

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/KILLINGJESUSFAMILY.php

    And these Jews are proud that they killed Jesus. Well, not them, because their Eastern European ancestors converted to Judaism 800 years after the death of Jesus, but still proud nonetheless.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykmv7s-Q0J8

    This is what Christians are fighting to defend?

    I have tried several times to enter a number of web addresses into this blog which document the blatant bias, inadequate methodology, double standards, and so on of the Goldstone Report, and it appears that these full addresses are treated as spam and rejected, possibly due to some tags or other artefacts provided by my computer (since other posters get their web address references published). So now I will just give some basic addresses; hopefully this will pass muster.

    Goldstone claims in the Moyer interview that he has yet to see any detailed critical analysis of the specific cases his Report deals with. This must mean that he refuses to look, or even to read material directly sent to him.

    For the rest of us, however, I recommend as probably the best detailed analysis, that at elderofziyon.blogspot.com - there is no www before that address - search there for the file under "Goldstone Report."

    Also see the analysis by Lt. Col. Jonathan Halevi, at www.spme.net/cgi-bin/articles.cgi?ID=6073

    And finally, see the collection of analyses at www.goldstonereport.org

    I hope that gets through.

    Phil,

    Just answer the question. You keep avoiding it.

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/HistoryPersecution.txt

    Your ignorance of the USS Liberty, the Stern Gang, etc. is deplorable. Perhaps you are not ignorant, just hoping to ignore it in the hopes that this will all go away. You truly are thriving off the fruits of the efforts of your "nation's" efforts to gain protection and curry the favor of the US government thanks to your friends at AIPAC.

    Everett, none of what you have said justifies what is currently going on in Palestine. It's a disgrace, and a nation of people who supposedly had 6 million people perish in WWII (Forget the 42 million who died trying to stop it) would remember what happened to them and show the sympathy they claim was never shown to them.

    "Never again, unless you are a Palestinian."

    This blog has certainly been a plethoria of information for Israeli detractors. Thus far I have listened to accusations on...The USS Liberty ;the Stern Gang : Mossad and its fingers in 9-11 ; Holocaust denial : Sabra and Shatilia : Rothchild conspiracy: genocide : water,air and food denial; massacres galore : PBS a Zionist tool
    etc. etc.
    I can't wait to hear about the Protocols of Zion
    and the blood of a gentile child for the Passover matzos.
    Stay tuned, you won't be disappointed


    There have been some sneering challenges to "phil" asking him to explain the long history of antisemitism, as if this by itself justifies both antisemitism as such and its continuation in anti-Zionism today.

    Actually, of course, that whole societies can hold to false beliefs is manifest. Islam for example is endorsed by over a billion people. About 2 billion hold to Christianity. Over a billion live under and at least publicly support Chinese Communism. They cannot all be right.

    Whole huge slabs of humanity can even support Nazism and antisemitism. Hatred and demonizations are very common and seductive ways for failed societies and persons to justify themselves and refuse to take moral responsibility for their own mistakes.

    The Jews and their religious heritage lie at the heart of Western civilization. Christianity claims that heritage for itself. Islam too has Judaism together with Christianity at its origins and therefore at the base of its civilization in the Middle East and elsewhere. Taking Islam first, it is easy to see that the fact that Christianity and Judaism still are faithfully followed by huge numbers even within the early Muslim world was understood by the Muslims as early as Muhammad as a challenge and implicit denial of Muhammad and Islam itself. Therefore these religious groups had to be brought to heel, humiliated, conquered and forced to pay fines and suffer continual discrimination; they were seen in very negative ways. Specifically the Jews, who were much more numerous than Christians in Arabia, were demonized for their resistance to Muhammad and Islam. The resultant antisemitism is deeply embedded in the Qur'an itself, and in later Muslim tradition. See Andrew Bostom, ed., The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism (2008).

    This Muslim antisemitism has gotten a strong boost from Nazi dissemination of their own antisemitic libels in the 30s and 40s. On that, see Matthias Kuentzel, Jihad and Jew-Hatred (2007). It is not coincidental that the leader of the "Palestinian resistance," Yasser Arafat's own mentor and uncle, Haj Amin el-Hussaini, spent WWII in Berlin as Hitler's honored guest and protegé.

    The influence from Western antisemitism is not accidental. Christianity from its origins had a big problem: it claimed to be the authentic inheritor of the Jewish Scriptures, the "true Israel," but the actual People of Israel persisted and held fast to their own Scriptures, and did not become Christians. This challenge was met by demonizing them outright (as in the Gospel of John chapter 8). They had to be evil, because they were not allowed to be right. They had no right to remain Jews. This basic tension became part of Christian self-definition and as a result an on-going Christian obsession, expanded on by the Church Fathers and later Christendom, and spawning new forms of demonizations down through the ages. Nazism secularized this obsessive fixation. After all, even for the Nazis the Jewish Scriptures remained at the heart of Western civilization; hatred of it masked or even was used to justify rejection also of the moral conscience of Christianity itself.

    This issue therefore strikes at the heart of Western identity just as it strikes at the heart of Muslim identity. And that the Jews have dared to thrive despite everything, to produce more Nobel Prize winners than any other people proportionately, more doctors and medical advances, indeed to transform modern knowledge for the benefit of all humanity, this is something deeply disturbing to antisemites.

    That they have even managed to establish their own tiny state on their Biblical homeland at last, this is the final reproach and outrage to such antisemites. It is a dagger in their heart. They cannot endure the implied confirmation of the failure of their own hateful ideologies.

    For further information, see, e.g., Robert Wistrich, Antisemitism: The Longest Hatred (1991).

    Phil wrote:

    "ChasE
    I will be happy to explain the truth behind the list of persecution of Jews as you requested, but please first explain to me

    1 the persecution of blacks in America
    2 the persecution of Chritians in China
    3 The caste system in India
    4 The killing of American Indians in the West
    5 The persecution of Sufis in the Muslim world"

    People have been asking Phil to explain the reasons behind the persecutions of the jews, but continues to stall with the old "what about the other guy" routine, and explain that to me first.

    Phil cannot come up with a plausible explanation, end of story.

    Did Israel commit war crimes? The only possible answer is yes.
    Israeli armed forces deliberately attack to destroy their opponents basic services. This means hospitals, water treatment plants, food distribution facilities, and other targets depended upon by non-combatants. Please recall during the Lebanon war, that Israel followed the same practices.
    With the super sophisticated weapons of today, such attacks cannot be by accident. We see the same pattern in Gaza.
    Mr. Moyers tried his best to be an apologist for Israel, to make so many excuses for their horrible acts. I would ask Mr. Moyers, how many times can you make excuses for brutality and violence? I read today that Israel is coldly depriving Palestinians of the very water they need to survive.
    I would ask Mr. Moyers, is this the act of a Nation seeking peace, seeking to protect the right to life of all people there?
    I wonder who really controls the media, when the story is always that Israel is just defending themselves. A nation involved in pure defense does not attack, occupy, steal resources, and doom others to misery and oppression.

    October 27, 2009

    Excerpt from an article by Micheal Rivero:

    "WHO IS THE US CONGRESS LISTENING TO?

    Why would the US Congress, which supposedly exists to serve the will of the AMERICAN people, be obeying the will of Israel?Well, maybe because Israel's PACs, including lobbying/spying organization AIPAC, are
    PAYING THEM TO! (And may have used money looted from American investors by Bernie Madoff to do it!)
    You heard me. Members of AIPAC, the organization suspected of spying for Israel,
    donate vast sums of money to the members of US Congress.

    And the US Congress has sold our young men and women in uniform to go off and fight and die in wars Israel has created."

    (What Really Happened.com)

    I'm sure, in whatever they taught you at Jewish camp while growing up is what you believe, but to us goyim, help us out. I'm sure in your world it is reasonable.

    However, to the rest of us, it's obvious. It happens over and over and over again. The Jews are welcomed into a society, then promptly kicked out. Why? Because they create problems. They do not play well with others, they turn the society upside down and refuse to assimilate.

    What happens to the Jews cannot be compared to the Native Americans. However, what happened to the Native Americans CAN be compared to what has happened to the Palestinians. Foreigners came in and stole their land. I can sympathize with the Native Americans. I cannot sympathize with the Jews. It's happened time and time again. What happened to the Native Americans happened once. ONCE. They did not screw anybody out of anything. They happened to be there and someone else wanted their land. However, the white man didn't believe it was their God given right to it, much in the way that fake Semites such as yourself believe God gave you the land in Palestine. God didn't do that...the British did with the Balfour Declaration.

    Apparently, these images do not disturb you...at least the ones on the right. In fact, you probably welcome them.

    http://les7duquebec.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/allemagne-1940-israel-2009/

    No amount of your revisionist history will change the fact that Israel is in the wrong. The fact that you're unapologetic about it and find it acceptable is down right vile. I suppose you believe what one of your ex-PM's said about the Palestinians...that their lives aren't worth one Jewish fingernail?

    ChasE
    I will be happy to explain the truth behind the list of persecution of Jews as you requested, but please first explain to me

    1 the persecution of blacks in America
    2 the persecution of Chritians in China
    3 The caste system in India
    4 The killing of American Indians in the West
    5 The persecution of Sufis in the Muslim world

    Was it all the fault of the victim as you suggest by your list or is possibly
    the nature of human beings that they have to feel superior to someone even if it means dehumanizing that person.?
    People don't like it when the Jews stand up and say we will not take it anymore. It makes people very angry. Too bad.


    I was able to listen to most of the interview with Mr. Goldstone. I would like to hear from him how he is able to maintain his humanity in the face of all the inhumanity he has seen and judged.

    The Natalie's and Phil's of the world will look at the following link and say: Photos on the left, unacceptable. Photos on the right, perfectly OK.

    http://les7duquebec.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/allemagne-1940-israel-2009/

    Cast Lead was a war crime. The imprisonment of the Palestinians on their own territory for 60 + years is a war crime. The theft of Palestinian land and the eviction from their homes by Israel is just plain revolting and immoral.

    But, a ray of light! Lest we forget, Auschwitz has reduced its number of dead jews from 4 to 1 million and even that figure is under scrutiny. And others have done likewise.

    Hmmm, somebody's gonna have a lot of explainin' to do pretty soon.

    Natalie, you say Hamas wants Israel to go away? Then please explain the shrinking Palestinian Map. Who is making whom go away?

    Oh yeah, one more thing Goldstone forgot in his reports, the use of IDF soldiers using Palestinian children as human shields:

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/humanshield.jpg

    And Phil asked proclaimed that it wasn't the Jews' fault they were kicked out of every place they settled. Here's a list, then answer me why were they kicked out and how is it everyone else's fault. I'll wait.

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/HistoryPersecution.txt

    "Israel.... It will survive by any means necessary!"
    Posted by: Natalie R | October 26, 2009 10:53 PM

    There is no need to question the "REPORT by Goldstone" WHY
    "The UN's Human Rights Council officially endorsed his findings!"

    RICHARD GOLDSTONE "That in no way justifies a policy of collective
    punishment of a people under effective occupation, destroying their means
    to live a dignified life and the trauma caused by the kind of military intervention
    the Israeli government called Operation Cast Lead. "

    Time For a Little History


    Wiki McMahon-Hussein Correspondence

    The Arab representatives submitted a statement to the committee from Sir Michael McDonnell[42] which explained that whatever McMahon had intended to mean was of no legal consequence, since it was his actual statements that constituted the pledge from His Majesty's Government. The Arab representatives also pointed out that McMahon had been acting as an intermediary for the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Lord Grey. Speaking in the House of Lords on the 27th March, 1923, Lord Grey had made it clear that, for his part, he entertained serious doubts as to the validity of the Churchill White Paper's interpretation of the pledges which he, as Foreign Secretary, had caused to be given to the Sharif Husain in 1915.


    Many of the relevant documents in the National Archives were later declassified and published. Among them were the minutes of a Cabinet Eastern Committee meeting, chaired by Lord Curzon,which was held on 5 December 1918. Balfour was in attendance. The minutes revealed that in laying out the government's position Curzon had explained that: "Palestine was included in the areas as to which Great Britain pledged itself that they should be Arab and independent in the future".[9]

    The Sykes-Picot Agreement

    The agreement is seen by many as a turning point in Western/Arab relations. It negated the promises made to Arabs[15] through T. E. Lawrence for a national Arab homeland in the area of Greater Syria, in exchange for their siding with British forces against the Ottoman Empire.

    Wiki The Balfour Declaration
    The Balfour Declaration of 1917 (dated 2 November 1917) was a classified formal statement of policy by the British government stating that "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" with the understanding that "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."[1]

    1939 White Paper

    Section II. Immigration: Jewish immigration to Palestine under the British Mandate was to be limited to 75,000 over the next five years, after which it would depend on Arab consent: 'His Majesty's Government do not [..] find anything in the Mandate or in subsequent Statements of Policy to support the view that the establishment of a Jewish National Home in Palestine cannot be effected unless immigration is allowed to continue indefinitely. If immigration has an adverse effect on the economic position in the country, it should clearly be restricted; and equally, if it has a seriously damaging effect on the political position in the country, that is a factor that should not be ignored. Although it is not difficult to contend that the large number of Jewish immigrants who have been admitted so far have been absorbed economically, the fear of the Arabs that this influx will continue indefinitely until the Jewish population is in a position to dominate them has produced consequences which are extremely grave for Jews and Arabs alike and for the peace and prosperity of Palestine.
    _______________________________________

    It seems that with each new generation we chase the coattails of our grandfathers and this situation is no exception. It is easy to forget that the Arabs of the region also desired independence from the crumbling Ottoman empire, something that was more or less promised to them for assistance during the first world war. With regard to the question of the Jewish Diaspora it was not the fault of racist Arabs so much as the antisemitism of the western powers. The point being that during the build up to the second world war, when it was clear to all what was happening in Germany we allowed few Jewish refugees to settle in Britain or America despite the fact that they could have easily been absorbed notwithstanding the economic difficulties of the time. Whenever I pass the Sculpture of the little Jewish children with their bags at Liverpool street station I feel uneasy because to most who pass by view it is a symbol of the kindness and humanity of the British people whereas it is in fact a symbol of a deep set racial attitude. The point being that the sculpture depicts children from the Kinda Transport only because we would not allow their parents to accompany them. It is all to easy to look at the situation now and say well it was all the fault of the Arabs for being so unreasonable but that fails to take into account their dreams and wishes.

    blah blah blah blah blah. You can go back and forth 42 million 384 thousand times, this one did this to that one then, no the Jews did this before, no but in 400 AD they did this and a manuscript was found there, but no the Palestinians found this and they did that after 400 AD. You get my point. It's NUTS. For every thought there is an equal and opposite thought and everyone thinks they have the truth.

    Israel exists NOW and it is NOT going away. Hamas wants it to go away they want the WHOLE enchilada. Both sides have done horrible things but Israelis (and Jews elsewhere) will NOT let the Jewish state die and if it does they will not as I said before go easy into the night! I think Palestinians get it! End of my thoughts on this issue.

    phil

    There seems to be a little discrepancy between your IAF report and this:

    Several senior Israeli officers provided TIME with a detailed account of the military campaign. "There was never a single incident in which a unit of Hamas confronted our soldiers," one Israel Defense Forces (IDF) official says. "We kept waiting for them to use sophisticated antitank and antiaircraft missiles against us, but they never did."
    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1876690,00.html

    What I have been seeking is independent and verifiable evidence. Israeli military/political sources are not reliable.

    Natalie.
    Your comments are no doubt made with sincerity but they are based more on emotion than logic.

    The Holocaust was part of a War that took 60 million lives. That it should be "carved in the Jewish DNA" may tell us about Jewish neurosis but does not in any way justify the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
    Other and greater persecutions are a matter of historical record. They do not seem to be either tattooed on the victim's DNA or used as excuses for atrocity.
    This sort of thing:
    "the state of Israel exists because the Holocaust existed"
    ...is demonstrable nonsense.
    Zionism began in the 19th century and the intention to transfer Palestinians out of their native land is evidenced in documents from thirty years before WWII.
    Yitzak Shamir offered Nazi Germany the Jewish National Military Organisation to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Contact_with_Nazi_authorities

    If horror informs your view of this conflict, take a look at Sabra, Shatilla and Deir Yassin and tell me why Palestinians should not have these atrocities imprinted on their DNA. At least half of the 1948 Palestinian population had direct experience of them. Now "Cast Lead" has introduced the experience to a new generation.

    Brewer
    Try this for Wikepedia's
    excellent report

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War.
    Here is an excerpt

    On January 8, an exchange of fire took place in Gaza city. Many Hamas fighters were killed in the clash as well as an Israeli officer of the Golani Brigade. In Northern Gaza, Hamas snipers opened fire on Israeli forces conducting an operation, killing an Israeli soldier. Another Israeli soldier was lightly wounded. In Central Gaza, a force of IDF soldiers entered a building near the Kissfum crossing. As the force entered, Hamas fighters fired an anti-tank missile at them, killing one Israeli officer and wounding one soldier. On the morning of January 11, the IDF started the third stage of the operation with an attack on the suburbs of Gaza City. Israeli forces pushed into the south of the city and reached a key junction to its north. During their advance Hamas and Islamic Jihad ambushed Israeli troops at several locations and heavy fighting ensued.[142] Additionally, the IAF reported that Hamas operatives had tried to shoot down an IAF fixed wing aircraft with anti-aircraft missiles for the first time since operations in Gaza began. Heavy machine gun fire against helicopters had also been unsuccessful.[143]

    Hamdy
    You write well but you are suffering from the misconception that the Palestinians want to "live beside Israel". Read what they write, they want to live instaed of Israel. They want Tel Aviv , Haifa the whole nine yards. If the Gaza war helped them to realize that they are not going to replace Israel then perhaps we are closer to real peace than we where before the war.

    Are you looking for a job with Fox News, Bill? Roger Ailes would have been impressed. I bet Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity would have said more or less the same things you said. Check out your Comments section. Your viewers know the facts much better than you.

    Phil said "Israeli's were fighting for their lives. In war you kill the other guy before he kills you" ..
    What a joke and how misinformed some people are, Israel has the most powerful military in the middle east region and a huge arsenal of deadly modern weapons. Gaza and Hamas fighters (terrorists) are no match to Israel and its military. I am not justifying what Hamas did, in fact I see it as stupid act and foolish move. But put yourself in their place, civilian that are living on a small piece of land without any exits, no jobs, not enough food or water, and supplies going in or out has to examined and approved by Israel. In other words it is a prison without any hope for getting out. Israel has the right to protect itself but has also a responsibility to let the Palestinian live beside it, live and let live.

    I hate getting into a you know what contest with respect to which group had it worst. Slavery was horrific no doubt about it. It is even practiced still in the Middle East and elsewhere to this very day. Africans perpetrated it on other Africans. I am NOT denying that it was hell. However, the state of Israel exists because the Holocaust existed.

    Phil, is quite right, there is NO antiseptic war. The very nature of war precludes avoiding barbarity. War IS barbaric. Until man tries to find other means of confrontation there will be times when there is simply no other choice.

    Simple fact is Israel needs to survive. What it has to do it has to do. I don't like it, barbarities will occur and if they were not the stronger of the two entities it would be perpetrated on them. There is no doubt about it. The shoah is carved in the Jewish DNA which others cannot perhaps understand. Good they shouldn't understand it. To understand it a racial apocalypse must occur.

    But Israel WILL survive. The Jewish people MUST not let it do anything else BUT survive. It will survive by any means necessary!

    Phil,

    If the IDF told me the sky was blue, I'd have to look up to the sky to double check.

    All those "unfortunate incidents". They seem to be a very careless military operation. Just look at the USS Liberty.

    phil.
    "Hamas had anti-aircraft weapons,anti-tank weapons,heavy machine guns etc"

    I have long sought evidence that Hamas possessed these weapons.

    Be a sport and post a link or two to where you got this information.


    In this exchange of accusations what is lost is that a real war was occuring between Israeli's and Palestinians in Gaza. Israeli's were fighting for their lives. In war you kill the other guy before he kills you.
    Hamas had anti-aircraft weapons,anti-tank weapons,heavy machine guns etc. Hamas had prepared for battle with tunnels,booby-traps,mines etc. This was not a walk in the park.
    Wikepedia writes about the casualties below.


    An IDF report on March 26, 2009 listed 1,166 Palestinian fatalities, of which 295 were identified as civilians.[13] According to IDF, out of 295 Palestinian non-combatants, there are 89 under the age of 16 and 49 women[13] The IDF report stated that at least 709 of the deaths were Hamas combatants or combatants belonging to militant organizations affiliated with Hamas. IDF enemy casualty statistics include those considered by Hamas to be members of the Internal Security Forces.[13] Additional 162 Palestinian men were listed by IDF as "unaffiliated," meaning that those names have not been attributed to any militant group.[13] The IDF "conceded that Palestinian civilians died because of mistakes in intelligence and targeting, but said the military did not find any case in which an Israeli soldier deliberately shot a civilian."[240]

    Will Hamas think twice before they engage Israel in battle again. I think so.

    Natalie R, The Jewish people don't own the franchise on human suffering. Supporters like yourself of the state of Israel's barbarity, always want to bring up the horror of WW 2, and have used that fact to justify what can only be described as Genocide against the Palestinian people.
    Sir Gerald Kaufman a Zionist, an Othrodox Jew, and also member of the British House of Commons gave a recent address regarding the Israeli attack on Gaza. Sir Gerald Kaufman said, " My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland when I was a child, and most of my family were killed in the Holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazi's came to her home town in Poland, and a german soldier shot her dead in her bed. Madam Deputy Speaker, my grandmother didn't die in the Holocaust to provide cover to Israeli soldiers from murdering Palestinian GRANDMOTHERS in Gaza ".

    Natalie.
    "I believe we occupy a UNIQUE place in the thousands of years of recorded human history which has levied the most EGREGIOUS acts upon us including the Jew in the dubious category of a near complete genocide of six million -- a number unable to be truly conceptualized by the human mind and it was done in the most technologically sophisticated ways."

    Help me here Natalie.
    Is it that eighteen million Africans transported as slaves don't count 'cause
    (a) it was done in a most primitive way?
    or
    (b) they were not Jews?

    Those pictures by ChaseE are horrenous. Who could countenance that? No one. Awful. The whole thing is disgusting. Truly though for every horror story or pictures you show of Jews doing horrendous things to Palestinians you could show the opposite. Do you think for one minute Palestinians would not do that to Jews? They WOULD in a heart beat. The whole thing is simply awful and someday someone is going to have some sense knocked into them.

    It COULD be so good if it were not so bad. Imagine two states living side by side and no violence, trading and helping each other. I can dream can't I?

    I’ve been such an admirer of Bill Moyers, President of the Shumann Center for Media and Democracy, until now. How can the American people exercise their rights and duties in a democracy when no one will tell us that Israel is occupying Palestine? It is apparently taboo to mention this in US print or electronic media. How can we make sound judgments when no one will tell us that Israel has been blockading Gaza, not even letting in humanitarian aid. Perhaps if we knew, we would not be giving massive amounts of military aid to Israel. Without a free media, we cannot have a free democracy, and we apparently do not have a free media.

    I’ve been such an admirer of Bill Moyers, President of the Shumann Center for Media and Democracy, until now. How can the American people exercise their rights and duties in a democracy when no one will tell us that Israel is occupying Palestine? It is apparently taboo to mention this in the American print or electronic media. How can we make sound judgments when no one will tell us that Israel has been blockading Gaza, not even letting in humanitarian aid? Perhaps if we knew, we would not be giving massive amounts of military aid to Israel. Without a free media, we cannot have a free democracy, and we apparently do not have a free media.

    I agree with judge Goldstone, but still wondering how at the same time while rejecting Israelis justification to bomb infrastructure in Gaza, judge Goldstone, for example, justifies destructions of all Danube bridges in Serbian northern city Novi Sad by US and NATO. Novi Sad is city on the opposite side of country from Kosovo without any military force at that time that threatens civilians on Kosovo. City was split in two and it took over a three years to connect community again.

    Judge Goldstone is surely an amazing and even righteous man. He is unique being Jewish himself and a Zionist to boot and yet he indicts Israel for war crimes against Gaza. While his rationales in many ways are understandable as a Jew I could NEVER have taken part in the investigation and the indictment of my own people. NEVER. Why? Because the Jewish people's history is UNIQUE unto itself. Yes, yes, I know they are not the only ones to have suffered BUT I believe we occupy a UNIQUE place in the thousands of years of recorded human history which has levied the most EGREGIOUS acts upon us including the Jew in the dubious category of a near complete genocide of six million -- a number unable to be truly conceptualized by the human mind and it was done in the most technologically sophisticated ways. No the Jews are not the ONLY ones to have suffered but we are the only ones in nearly every corner of the globe for over 5000 years that has had to suffer as the world has been relentless in its pursuit and attack of the Jew.

    I do not care that the Palestinians were not a party to the Holocaust. The Holocaust happened and many Arabs within Palestine and other states played footsie with the Nazis. My point is thus: The Palestinians IF they could would have wiped out the Jewish state a LONG LONG time ago. They couldn't. The have reaped what they have sewn and YES, my Jewish blood boils in anger at Judge Goldstone as I write this.

    Mr. Goldstone has fortitude and does what he does for what he thinks are the purest of reasons BUT he stands with anti-Semites of yesteryear and with those today who would love nothing more than to reap their final solution IF THEY COULD and use Goldstone's voice when they say "see we have a right because even a Jew indicts Israel."

    To be Jewish is to have the most SINGULAR of histories. Our people have suffered ENOUGH over 5000 years often at the hands of not only Nazi's but many others including their Arab follow ups. It is no wonder to me that Israel would not let Mr. Goldstone talk to them. What is the Arab humanitarian feeling toward the Jew who lost an INCOMPREHENSIBLE number as history records it no matter the vicious anti-Semites who love to spit in the Jewish face by denying this damnable act.

    Part of me envies Mr. Goldstone's philosophical base and part of me LOATHES what he did because it gives yet more ammunition to a people who want to rid the world of the Jew (which would include him) from the face of the earth. I could NEVER do what he did no matter how humanitarian I consider myself to be!

    Moreover, the Jew cowered in fear for most of history particularly in the shetytls of Europe and in many other lands. Even in the US the Jew was careful always careful to try not to call attention to his/herself. If the Rosenbergs were traitors my parents said SHAH don't talk about it. I wondered why should I suffer because of the Rosenbergs whom I and no one in my family knew?

    Well, Israel SHOWS what the Jew can do. It shows a Jew of STRENGTH, the muscle that it has and the strength that WILL be used if its destruction hangs in the balance. The Jew has been reborn and WILL use significant force IF pressed. It should give those GREAT pause who want the destruction of the Jewish people and the Jewish state as they will NOT go quietly into the night. No other nation suffers in the most unwelcoming neighborhood possible as the Jew and therefore the Jew WILL do all he can to defend himself and never allow or even suffer the POSSIBILITY of annihilation EVER. What ever it takes, by any means necessary. No wonder I liked Malcom X because he STOOD up and said NO NO more EVER and he MEANT IT!

    I just want to say that I find Bill Moyers to be the most responsible of American Journalists. He takes the perspective of his guests in order to pull from them information relevant to the discussion and to the audience. I found the judge, Richard Goldstone, to be quite likable for the fair perspective he showed on the issue. I also want to thank Bill for the mention of Justice Justice, who brought school integration to Texas in 1971, some 17 years after "all deliberate speed" was court ordered in 1954. This reminded me of the Juneteenth holiday, which celebrates the coming of emancipation some two and half years after it was issued by the White House. In that commentary, his comparing of the records of prisoner execution between the current governor and W. Bush, atests to the problem of high-level competition as an untenable priority that assaults the citizenry. His addendum of the trials of Judge Roy Bean highlighted the value of a judge like Goldstone.

    It is deeply disturbing to find Bill Moyers misreporting the chronology of Israeli-Palestinian violence. While Moyers repeats the Israeli talking point that Israel was "retaliating" against Gazan rockets, the truth is the reverse. The first Gazan rocket was fired many months AFTER Israeli forces had invaded Gaza numerous times, killing and injuring massive numbers of people. The first rocket launched into israel came in 2002, approximately a year and a half after Israeli invasions had begun. Israeli forces killed approximately 300 Gazans BEFORE rockets were launched into Israel.

    I was in Gaza in Feb-march 2001; I saw entire neighborhoods already in ruins from Israeli invasions and shellings; hospitals contained many children who had been shot -- all of this before any rockets had been fired. Moreover, in the past eight years, these small, mostly home-made rockets have killed a total or 18 Israelis, while Israel has killed over 6,000 Palestinians. Please get your facts right. It is Palestinians who are retaliating; it is Palestinians who are trying, with little success, to defend their population.

    Additional thoughts: What WAS repeatedly mentioned by both Moyers and Goldstone was an alleged UN “bias” against Israel. And again what WASN'T mentioned was Israel’s routine and relentless violations of the UN Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the 4th Geneva Convention, over 100 UN Resolutions, and their own pledge upon which their admission to the UN was conditional: to honor the Palestinians’ right of return per UNGA Resolution 194, and to internationalize Jerusalem. Both pledges have remained unmet for six decades. Israel’s contempt for international law, reflected in explicit statements by prime ministers from Golda Meir to Arial Sharon - that Israel is above judgment by others and functions under divine impunity – might help to explain why the vote counts against Israel in the above-mentioned UN resolutions have included all of Europe, Asia, Africa and Latin America, not simply the Arab or Muslim states. In each of 42 US UNSC vetoes, we provided the ONLY vote supporting Israel among the 5 permanent and 10 rotating members.

    Great interview! A small correction: The allies bombed the Reichstag, not the Bundestag. The Bundestag is the Federal parliament of post-WWII Germany, while the Reichstag was the parliament of pre-WWII Germany. Today, "Reichstag" usually refers to the Reichstag *building*, which is now housing the Bundestag.

    In Gaza, either two combatants were killed for each civilian (Israel’s version) or the reverse (the Palestinian version). In the 1991 Gulf war, a war authorised by the UN Security Council, the ratio was 2.125 civilian deaths for each enemy combatant killed. In the 2003 Iraq war it was 4.5 civilians per enemy combatant. In attacks by drone aircraft in Afghanistan, 10 civilians have died for each enemy combatant killed. I have no problem with Israel being judged by the standards we apply to other western democracies. But those nations who wish to judge Israel by unrealistically high standards to which no western democracy adheres need to take care that their own pronouncements do not come back to haunt them.

    I enjoyed your interview with Justice Goldstone, however, Bill Moyers initial framing of the attack on Gaza was in response to thousands of Hamas rockets is way off base, and could have come directly from the Israeli government press release. I would suggest you educate your viewers that the entire occupation is illegal, possibly have Phyllis Bennis on to discuss her book which is a primer on the subject and stop continuing to blame the victim!

    I was very disappointed by Moyers' initial framing of the context: that Israel was responding defensively to "thousands" of Hamas rockets. There was no mention of the illegal Israeli/US overthrow of the elected Hamas government followed by a suffocating blockade in gross violation of the 4th Geneva Convention, likened to the Warsaw ghetto by Richard Falk, retired (Jewish) Princeton professor of international law and UN rapporteur in the OPT. No mention that Gaza remains under occupation as defined by international law and that an occupied people have the right of armed self-defense against their occupier. No mention that Israel repeatedly violated the June 2008 truce before Hamas finally responded with rockets. No mention of their sniper fire on Gazan farmers, their extrajudicial imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians, their continuous naval attacks on Gazan fishermen in Gazan waters. No mention of the original 1948 crime of the Nakba against which the victims have mounted a 6-decade resistance, almost always non-violently and without help from the world. No mention that Hamas is denied any weapons capable of targeting the IDF and avoiding civilians in conducting the rightful defense of their land and human rights. No mention that these "thousands" of rockets have killed 15 Israelis in 8 years while Israel has killed several thousand Palestinians, bulldozed some 24,000 houses and 2 million fruit and olive trees, relentlessly confiscated Palestinian land and moved their own population onto this confiscated land in violation of international law. No mention that since Sept 2000, the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem has recorded 123 Israeli and 1,437 Palestinian children killed through June 2009, with the majority of Palestinian children killed by targeted sniper fire. And so much more (see www.al-nakba-history.com). Neither Moyers' introductory framing nor his questioning reflected any awareness or acknowledgment of these historical or legal realities and the complete moral asymmetry as well as power asymmetry in this conflict. Gaza was simply the latest in a series of over 60 Israeli massacres, in every case protected from international justice by cover-ups and US vetoes in the UN Security Council. I am outraged when a normally responsible journalist has the opportunity to expose truths long concealed from the American public and fails to do so.

    It is pssible to obtain peace in the Middle
    East in less than six weeks by simply cutting off the money on both sides. Make it illegal to buy oil from anywhere in the Middle East. Seize Suadi Arabia's oil fields ( They DID after all fund 9/11) and tell Israel to save its ammo and schekles because there is no more coming their way from the U.S. ubti they cme to terms with their neighbors.

    the problem is that Israel's existance is predicated on unquestioned American support but their dear Uncle Sam is going broke. We can no longer afford the luxury of maintaining a far flung military empire just to secure Israel's right to exist.

    Were war crimes committed in Gaza? Civilian casualties are virtually impossible to avoid when the "theater of war" is a densely populated civilian territory. There are great complexities involved in the situation with Gaza about which I suggest most posters are completely ignorant. Mr. Moyers conducted a professionally sound interview with Mr. Goldstone and tried to stay above the fray of this highly emotionally charged situation by questioning his guest as thoroughly as any good journalist should. The reactions of the posters here indicate the high level of emotionality about the subject matter and not the professionalism of Mr. Moyers, IMHO.

    "Your guest has stood way above his "zionist" ideology for the sake of truth, dignity & justice and with it, won the respect and sympathy of many in the world.
    Something you did not Mr. Moyer.
    K. Rimane"

    I don't get this psycho logic tactic, at all, in this case.

    Why do you need a human sacrificed - Mr. Moyers - in order to find "justice"?

    Not that it is "evil", but I got the distinct impression that Justice Goldstone is aware that there is no way to "sell" the story any other way, anymore. He HAS to tell the truth, if only in hopes of being someday personally being granted the mercy of justice that he grants as a justice to someone else.

    So where does the need for a human sacrifice ("bad Mr. Moyers") fit in? Justice Gladstone is getting slammed by other "zionists"! Can those immediately-vociferous critics of the Justice now change their minds (whoops, Goldstone is right, the guilt schtick is not working anymore) only by comparing their "traitor" in relation to a "cheerleader" to rationalize the superiority of the traitor's "rising above" ideology...?

    Maybe human sacrifice is not NEEDED anymore, how about that?

    It seems to me that Moyer asked the kinds of questions that 80% of the American population would have asked. Those are questions based on misunderstanding and misinformation about the reality of the Israel-Palestine conflict. For example, focusing on Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks without EVER addressing the root cause for the terrorist attacks (i.e., Israel’s oppressive occupation and colonization of Palestine). I am disappointed that when pressed about the “bias” in the report against Israeli violations, that Judge Goldstone did not simply state the obvious: Israel committed far far more violations than Hamas. The report is not biased, the reality of the commissions of violations is biased. Judge Goldstone did remark that it is difficult to equate Hamas and homemade rockets with Israel and the most sophisticated air, naval and ground military that U.S. money can buy. This report is a good first step towards holding both parties (but most especially Israel due to its overwhelming power advantage and culpability) accountable for their actions and for taking real steps towards peace.

    I used to like Bill Moyer until this show aired.
    Although i have good respect for his intellect, I do wish Mr. Moyer would learn from his guest.
    You see, Mr. Moyer, I tried to understand your one sided vision of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as a mean to challenge your guest's conclusions he presented in his report, yet i find it very hard in my heart to believe that you do find this subject very difficult to understand.
    You objectivity should first serve your intellect and not just a fraction of your audience and its political influence.
    It is as though you refuse to see the fact that are presented in front of you. It is as though you do not consider palestinians equally human to jews.
    Your guest has stood way above his "zionist" ideology for the sake of truth, dignity & justice and with it, won the respect and sympathy of many in the world.
    Something you did not Mr. Moyer.
    K. Rimane

    I used to like Bill Moyer until this show aired.
    Although i have good respect for his intellect, I do wish Mr. Moyer would learn from his guest.
    You see, Mr. Moyer, I tried to understand your one sided vision of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as a mean to challenge your guest's conclusions he presented in his report, yet i find it very hard in my heart to believe that you do find this subject very difficult to understand.
    You objectivity should first serve your intellect and not just a fraction of your audience and its political influence.
    It is as though you refuse to see the fact that are presented in front of you. It is as though you do not consider palestinians equally human to jews.
    Your guest has stood way above his "zionist" ideology for the sake of truth, dignity & justice and with it, won the respect and sympathy of many in the world.
    Something you did not Mr. Moyer.
    K. Rimane

    Israel is a defacto terrorist state. It was conceived and established through terrorism as a means of depopulating the Semetic population.
    Israel was established as a protectorate for the worlds criminal Zionist oligarchs.
    Israel is high in the export and manufacture of drugs, particularly ecstasy, white slavery of E European women, illegal organ trafficking, arms export to areas of civil unrest, a refuge for pedophiles and bank schemers.
    The years of propaganda have rendered the individuals mind useless in seeing through the reality of what Israel truly is.
    A world without Israel would certainly be a better place. Israel was a grand project of the Rothschild family and the Sabbatean Frankists, all roots of evil and purveyers of world rule by the deluded 'Chosen Ones'.

    I disagree with Goldstone’s starting point. I think today there are no innocents. I think the application of rules to something chaotic, the attempt to harness brutality with international standards, falsely accepts war’s inevitably, and leads to an unreal separation of military and political, acceptable and inhuman destruction.

    Thanks to the US for providing political and legal cover for Israeli war crimes over the years. Thanks to the US for not enforcing its own laws when it comes to the use of US supplied weapons against civilian targets. Thanks to a very generous US Congress that can vote tens of billions of dollars in military aid to US without a debate yet spend weeks and months debating issues that concerns American citizens and tax payers. Thanks to US for granting tax exemptions to US Jewish organizations that fund criminal and terrorist Jewish settlers. Thanks to the US for never having the courage to stand up to its laws and moral values. Most of all thanks to a very powerful and vengeful American Jewish Leadership and organizations that always stood in the way of peace between Israel and the Palestinians through its blackmailing of the White House and members of Congress. Always keep in mind, when the blood flow ( Jewish or better yet Arab) the money flow to the coffer of these Jewish organizations which in turn used this blood money to seek more and more support from members of Congress and from the white house. I wounder if there is peace for Israel what the American Jewish leadership can sell to its community to generate the kind of money it needs to keep control of Congress and keep control of debate. In the US we are free to debate G-d/God/Allah, debate Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed, George Bush, Reagan and now Obama, debate US Constitutions but we are not free to debate Israel and our so called "special" relationship. Beside who ever coined this word but die hard Jewish Zionists who served in all US administration. Perhaps this time around, the US should listen to Judge Goldstone and do not rush to the defense of Israel right or wrong. I am for charging Israeli and Hamas leaders for war crimes. Let no man, Jew, or Arab ever gets a way with murder.

    Goldstone criticised Israel for not using commandoes exclusively instead of airpower. Apparently he does not recall the battles in Jenin where Israel refrained from using airpower to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. As a result 22 Israeli soldiers were killed in the street to street battles with snipers, mines and boobytraps. Most of them would probably be alive today if airpower had been used.
    Goldstone would do himself a favor if he kept his suggestions on tactics to himself.
    The Palestinians cried massacre in Jenin also. Their propagandists reported 1000's killed. When the smoke cleared, less than 70 Palestinians were killed, and most of them were terrorists.
    Similarly in Gaza, most of the adults killed were Hamas combatants

    William, where do you dream up these erroneous bits of misinformation. The majority of Jews in Israel are of Sephardic background, not Ashkenazi.
    Now you can retreat to your
    cave and come up eith equally nasty things to say about Sephardic. Off you go.

    Why is it considered courageous to criticize a two-bit racist European theocracy, shoehorned by force of arms, into the heart of the Muslim world?

    Based on some long lost biblical claim rooted in ancient European mythology and exploiting Europe's modern sense of guilt, the state of Israel is populated by violent spoiled brats used to getting their way. They obviously intent on using ethnic cleansing and or genocide as appropriate solutions to their security needs.

    As Goldstone and many other Jews of conscience point out, the modern, craven state of Israel is addicted to the expedient use of spectacular and emotionally satisfying violence. It is, as often as not, applied in the interest of domestic politics and virtually always on a scale that goes way beyond the realm of military necessity.

    Why not?

    Israel doesn't really pay for the bulk of its deadly high tech weapons, we do.

    Through the sham of "advanced placement agreements" the nasty weapons we use on Arabs elsewhere in the Middle East are transshipped through and stockpiled in Israel. They are allowed to "borrow" these weapons in times of need on the premise they will pay for them later. Since the Yon Kippur War however, later has never comes to pass. So it is that the wholesale destruction of Beirut and Gaza where both largely paid for with American tax dollars.

    Israel's short sighted behavior only insures a perpetual (and profitable) state of belligerence. Sadly since Israel's supporters INSIST on equating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism, Israel's actions represent a disgrace to the great and highly ethical religion it claims to defend.

    I suggested in an earlier message that Mr. Moyers view Simone Bitton's excellent documentary "Palestine, Story of a Land." Educators might secure a loan for viewing here: http://jsis.washington.edu/mideast/vidlib.shtml
    Palestine: Story of a Land. 2 parts each 60 min., 1993. This two-part video uses only rare archival and newsreel footage to recount the story of Palestine from the late nineteenth century through the Zionist movement, the creation of Israel, the first Intifada and the Madrid Peace Conference. Produced by Simon Bitton. I hope Mr. Moyers will view this fine film leaving his biases and prejudices aside.

    Very clearly, the IDF committed war crimes in Gaza. The thing to watch is whether or not the USA uses its veto at the UN Security Council to prevent punishment of the IDF/Israel. If the USA protects the IDF war criminals, then it is time l to move out of America. The home of the free and the brave will have changed into the home of the war criminals and fools and cowards. However, I am not surprised by what the IDF did. The vast majority of Jews in Israel are Russian Communist Khazars who are second, or third, or fourth generation descendents of the Communist Chekists.

    Israel does not have access to the normal international enforcement of peace. People everywhere have gotten so used to considering the Israel/Palestinian conflict some sort of exception due to the never-ending claims of the Palestinians to ownership of Israel, that a normal perspective on war and peace is missing from the international community. To restore perspective (that the Goldstone report lacks) picture what would happen if Canada lobbed rockets indiscriminately into the U.S. (And make no mistake, Hamas is fully in charge by brutal enforcement of any violent activities w/i its area of control, despite their omission from Goldstone's report. It calls the Hamas operatives simply "armed militants".) Firstly, of course, it would be considered a declaration of war. The U.S. would, upon ascertaining that the gov't had sanctioned the attacks, immediately declare war in response. After we inevitably won, we would have the full cooperation of the international community, including the UN, in enforcing surrender terms and rounding up anyone in Canada who attempted to restart hostilities. Israel gets no such support from the international community, so a state of neverending war is permitted. At the end of any other war, if the defeated nation did not accept terms of surrender including relinguishing claims to land which they had been trying to seize, the international community including the surrounding nations would negotiate and impose a treaty upon them. Unfortunately the surrounding national gov'ts in this case are only too happy to use a recalcitrant Palestinian gov't as a tool w/ which to score points against powerful foreign nations, and to score points with their populaces in place of improving economic inequalities w/i their own countries.

    Countries like Iran continue to arm Hamas. I somehow doubt, in the hypothetical situation, if the international community abandoned the U.S., and Canada continued to militarily agress for 40 years after defeat, that our behavior would be exemplary. Odds are, we'd just march to their capitol and set up a gov't of annexation, settle large numbers of citizens from the lower 48 there, and treat resistors as terrorists. We wouldn't simply sit inside the old border and try to deal from a distance with attacks.

    As far as I can see, the continued hostilities is entirely the fault of the international community, unwilling to enforce a peace settlement such as the Oslo Accords.

    Bill,
    you should have the questions what are the OCCUPIED people to do? Where the American funded Terrorist state of Israel has terrorized the Palestinian for 60 plus year and has disobeyed every UN resolution with the support of American Tax payer monies. Where is Bill Moyer when hos tax $$$$$$ are being used to deny the Human rights to million. With American $$$$$$ and privileges it would a state of Bangladesh a basket case. Without the trillions of $$$$ of western aid every citizen would be a beggar on the street of Tel Aviv like Haiti. in evry war refugees have the right to return.

    Three bloody cheers for Bill Moyers Journal Report featuring Justice Richard Goldstone investigation into Israel and Hamas’ actions during military operations in Gaza.

    From this I now realize that judges like Richard Goldstone make great journalists-telling the story like it is!

    Let's face it Israel was way out of line with its brutal scale attack on Palestine. Come on, why rip up farm fields with bulldozers! They were playing the ethnic cleanse game here!
    How would America be seen by the world if we acted toward a country like that! The USA catches hell if a few Afghan civilians get killed during a Predator strike!
    By the way that U.N. Netanyahu speech said it all! Insultingly ignorant of any compassionate understanding! Like Bush - a great leader!

    Paranoia strikes deep as the saying goes. Governments like Israel and many others mixing state with religion on equal terms run paraniod especially of other states run likewise. No formula for peace inherant in that mix!
    Let's face the fact that Israel is a NUCLEAR POWER!
    ***(How about the details to that story Bill Moyer-sic).

    If a few homemade rockets from Palestine got this type of reaction what happens when Israel REALLY feels threatened!

    Three cheers to Judge Goldstone and Bill Moyers Great piece of journalism! You both must have caught some heat on this one!
    What the hell...its worth the story!

    Thank you Bill Moyers, this is outstanding journalism, and thank you to Justice Goldstone for a courageous inquiry of what truly happened. Only the truth will heal.

    What do you think? I think there are "war crimes committed."
    Do you believe that war crimes were committed in Gaza? Yes, "Based on the
    response by Mr. Goldstone" and the "CBS 60 minutes report"!

    Based on the "REPORT by Goldstone"
    "The UN's Human Rights Council officially endorsed his findings."
    RICHARD GOLDSTONE "That in no way justifies a policy of collective
    punishment of a people under effective occupation, destroying their means
    to live a dignified life and the trauma caused by the kind of military intervention
    the Israeli government called Operation Cast Lead. "

    Are the conclusions of the Goldstone report fair? Yes. Mr. Goldstone clearly states:

    "I saw the destruction of the only flour-producing factory in Gaza. I saw fields
    plowed up by Israeli tank bulldozers. I saw chicken farms, for egg production,
    completely destroyed... I met with families who lost their loved ones in homes in
    which they were seeking shelter from the Israeli ground forces.
    I had to have the very emotional and difficult interviews
    with fathers whose little daughters were killed, whose family were killed.
    One family, over 21 members, killed by Israeli mortars."
    "The military operation,.. in Gaza, was a result of the disrespect for the
    fundamental principle of ‘distinction' in international humanitarian law"
    Goldstone, "Between combatants and innocent civilians."
    "The firing of many thousands of rockets and mortars at a civilian population constitute
    a very serious war crime."
    "Two wrongs does not make one right!"
    It is time for the International Court to act!

    Moyers needed to pursue 2 more lines of quetions with Goldstone:
    1. How can commando raids against any terrorists [not just anti-Jewish terrorsits] be effective when the terrorists constantly change locations? In other words, doesn't any democracy fall against a lawless opponent?
    2. If "civilians" place a terrorist org into power, aren't pressures against those "civilians" - including destruction of fields and infrastructure - proper?
    Would like to see a whole Bill Moyers show devoted to these two issues.

    Right off at the start:
    -"Personally, do you have any doubt about Israel's right to self-defense?"

    -"Do you consider Hamas an enemy of Israel?"

    -"Were those rocket attacks on Israel a threat to the civilians of Israel, to the population of Israel?"

    -"And Israel, in your judgment, was justified in trying to put an end to those rocket attacks-"


    Yet where were the other side's questions? Where were the questions about Israel's occupation and the right of the Palestinians to defend themselves?

    The truth is that like most liberals, Mr.Moyers' is all for peace and justice within America, but his morality stops at the border, especially with Israel/Palestine.


    "The Jews have been the victim of collective punishment for thousnads (sic) of years."

    This is just one example of the grand myths that inform this debate.

    What race or religion has not suffered similar persecution?

    18 million blacks were snatched from their homes during the slave trade era. Half of them died during transport. Christians, Hindu and Moslems have been savagely persecuted. Irish, Scots, the "untouchables" of India and so on and on and on.

    The "Golden age of Jewry" occurred under Ottoman rule. Literally thousands of Jews attained high office in Islamic states, Europe, (particularly Poland, England, France, the Balkans) South America during the past two millennia. Let us not forget the USSR where Jews comprised the largest single bloc in the Government and security apparatus after the 1917 revolution. Then of course there is America where Jews are well represented in political and commercial life.

    Even if the "eternal victim" myths were indeed true, they do not provide an excuse for the continued dispossession and persecution of the Palestinian people.

    I didn't hear of any Hamas fighters engaging the IDF during the operation. If so, how can these be considered "war crimes"? It was a massacre. I agree with commentary in Haaretz that Goldstone actually did Israel a favor by the report. See: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1118022.html
    To help put it all in perspective: Hamas rockets killed 20 Israelis in the eight years since the blockade began. In the same eight years 4000 Israelis died in auto accidents. It’s way out of proportion. Let’s send Israel money for driver’s ed instead of weapons. More lives will be saved.
    Also, there was an effective cease fire in place between Israel and Hams until Nov. 4, 2008 (U.S. Election day and no coincidence) when Israel broke it.
    Facts followed by Israeli sources (Haaretz):
    Israel planned the attack months in advance: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html
    Israel broke the cease fire:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1034284.html (Don’t let the title fool you; read the whole article)
    “…Also on Tuesday, IDF soldiers killed a Hamas gunman and wounded two others on Tuesday in the first armed clash in the Gaza Strip since a cease-fire was declared in the territory in June, Palestinian medics said…” “…An Israeli army spokeswoman said troops had entered the territory to destroy a tunnel which Gaza militants had dug under the border to try to abduct soldiers.”
    And LA Times: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/17/world/fg-mideast17

    Comments to David E. Litienthal, Oct. 24th at 5:18 p.m.:
    It is a fair question to ask whether Bill Moyers was using Judge Goldstone as a shill for his own views--favorable to Gazans? Who knows for sure?--in the substance and tonality of some of his questions. Moyers, of course, invited an internationally respected scholar with human rights credentials in hot spots like Rwanda and Yugoslavia; and Moyers knew the Judge would be able to handle himself with aplomb no matter what questions were thrown at him, especially in light of the fact that the Report itself is comprehensive, thorough and balanced.

    I prefer--based on Moyer's history--to look at his style of questioning Judge Goldstone from the prism that, over a lifetime, "one's kindest judgments are more likely to be one's more accurate judgments." In this case, we need to look to media history at PBS: Moyer's critics in bygone years were able to purge him from the airwaves for a while. A travesty. Let's place things in the present context: Moyers displayed great courage in the very act of interviewing Judge Goldstone with the ample airtime that the issue deserved. Then, perhaps Moyers needed to be prudent and to keep his "peripheral" vision on anticipated highly organized and politically powerful supporters in the U.S. of the Israeli Government's political and miltary actions in Gaza, including the fact that the Obama Administration regrettably voted against the report in the U.N. Human Rights Council for unspecific reasons. For critics of Moyer's tonality, substance and style here, I don't think it reached to the level of a journalistic integrity issue; but it might have been close. (Certainly, Moyers missed some important criticisms of opprobrious Israeli conduct towards the Gazans from June 2008 in the lead-up to the invasion in December, etc.)

    Perhaps we should not expect our journalists to be "prophetic" in a politically-charged media environment that could potentially drive him from airwaves in this otherwise TV media desert. However, we do have a right to expect journalists to be fair. At most, Moyers excercised a bit of Shakespearean theatrics in the interview, knowing that Judge Goldstone was perfectly capable of handling any hostile interviewer (gobbling him or her up for breakfast with effective argument and facts) because of who Goldstone is, his scholarship, and the quality of the report.

    Let me propose an alternative way to discuss this highly charged issue beyond the blog format. The United Nations Association in N.J. in the past few years utilized a community conversation vehicle where Jews, Palestinians, Christians, Secular Humanists, et al. came together--50 or 60 people--and were assigned to tables of 8 with an experienced neutral facilitator. The role of the facilitator was to encourage people at each table to discuss concrete issues such as refugees, water rights, The Wall, security, the settlements, the status of Jerusalem, etc., and to come up with concrete ways to solve these issues: a daunting task, perhaps, on its face, naive. (To keep emotions under control, participants were encouraged to role-play and express positions different from their own.) Then, at the end of the table discussions, each table named a person who would report the views expressed at the tables in a plenary session. Then, the most important thing of all: we shared Middle Eastern food with each other and establised relationships one-on-one and kept the conversation going! It seemed to work in South Orange and Montclair, N.J. We had to throw people out of the building, not because of turmoil, but because they wanted to continue talking to each other.

    As American voters our job is to pressure Congress into taking a more balanced view that might help bring peace. Unlikely as that may be today the possibilities diminish each day. Both brilliant men, Moyers and Gladstone know this and likely orchestrated their discussion to move us to that the bottom line. Anything that might that bring congress to the left of AIPAC is arguably worth taking. Polls show that we favor compromise over the hopless status quo. I don't like settling for less any more than most but I honor them and trust their judgement. Work on your congress person.

    Well Firebird , you and your grandfather must feel vindicated by the Goldstone report. Now I know why the Jews were marched off to the gas chambers. It was all their fault. Probably the fact that they descended from apes and pigs had something to do with it.

    Did ANY of you actually listen to the interview? Goldstone didn't let either side off the hook and that's the core reason why you're so angry. You wanted the other guy punished and yourselves let off the hook.

    Of course Bill Moyer's was playing devils advocate, he is far to smart to be not doing so.

    A vast proportion of the situation that exists with Islam and terrorism stems from the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel in 1948 and the subsequent illegal Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza since the 1967 war. Israel drove better than 800,000 Palestinians from the their land and their country in 1948 and has been in contravention of International Law for years. Only the United Nations veto by the United States has kept the country from being subject to sanctions from the law abiding countries of the world.

    Israel exhibits all of the flaws of Fascism in it's so called wars against Palestinians. Wars that by and large are nothing more than the massacre of civilian.

    I have always watched your program diligently and admired the content. However, your Goldstone production left me angry and exasperated. It showed clearly that you are biased against the Palestinians, the terrorized, the victimized, the colonized and you clearly sympathize with the Israelis, the terrorizers, the victimizers and the colonizers. Your questions clearly indicated this. Not once did you pose a question about the occupation by Israel of the Palestinians that has lasted for over 60 years and was condemned tens of times by the United Nations.
    Who did you have in mind when you were asking these biased questions: was it your employers, PBS, or was it Zionist Israel or was it the huge demonic and insidious network of Jewish organizations, headed by AIPAC, that forces the U.
    S. policy in the Middle East into a direction hostile even to America's interests.

    "Arab terrorists killed thousands of Israelis in a ratio of 10 Israelis for every one suicide bomber. The Arabs and the world had no problem with that. Why all the fury when the numbers are reversed? The Jews have been the victim of collective punishment for thousnads of years."

    Cherry picking the information, eh Phil? We're not talking about the Arabs as a collective people, we are talking about PALESTINIANS, people who are walled in a concentration camp like situation. Apparently, you have no problem with that. I question your numbers, too. Check out www.ifamericansknew.org. Those are the REAL numbers.

    You say that the Jews have been subjected to this kind of persecution for thousands of years. My question to you is this...why? What is it about the Jews? Like my grandfather said, "It can't be everybody else."

    The message that Israel sent to Hamas in the Gaza war is that Israel will fight the war in a way that is in the best interest of Israel. A war that results in one Arab killed for one Israeli killed is stupid when you think that there are 300 million Arabs in the Middle East and 5 million Jews. A war of attrition with one for one is a loser for Israel. Proportional response is a loser. Only when Hamas understands that any attack on Israel will be answered by an over-powering response will there be any chance for peace.
    Goldstone is wrong when he states that disproportionate response are from the distant past. Arab terrorists killed thousands of Israelis in a ratio of 10 Israelis for every one suicide bomber. The Arabs and the world had no problem with that. Why all the fury when the numbers are reversed? The Jews have been the victim of collective punishment for thousnads of years.

    oh boo f-n hoo LGF -- homemade rockets falling in empty fields - and you type it in all caps like they're raining down Hellfire missiles with white phosphorus on a captive civilian population -- oh wait, that was isreal.

    Moyers has done his best to question Judge Goldstone along lines that are clearly slanted in Israel's favor. No understanding is expressed of the humanitarian disaster and concentration camp that Israel has consistently and deliberately put the Palestinians in since the so called withdrawal from Gaza.
    Crimes against humanity have been committed on a daily basis against the Palestinian people since the founding of Israel.
    No matter how you cut it, Israel has been on a low intensity program of ethnic cleansing that has increased drastically in intensity since September 11. They have been masters at testing the envelope of public opinion with how much they can get away with. I suppose it is typical when a criminal is allowed to commmit horendous crimes over the years without impunity that they have the hubris to now openly commit even larger crimes.

    Will Judge Goldstone petition the UN to bring Hamas to the International Court of Justice for crimes against humanity for the ROCKETS HAMAS CONTINUES TO FIRE AT ISRAELI TOWNS since the Gaza War, given that Hamas has not and will not investigate themselves?

    The State Department probably has many loyal Israeli Citizens posing as United States Citizens, and acting as Fronts for the Crimes of Israel.

    Mr Moyers,

    Your interview with Goldstone asked all the right questions to satisfy his critics, thereby pointing out the credibilit, integrity and capabilty of Judge Goldstone. Facts are facts and all the spin in the world can't change this reality. Marianne

    Brian Robinson, you need to say things like that in order to keep your job. Thanks for the shilling. No better than Bill Maher.

    Hmmm -- an interesting reaction from David Lilienthal and others. I'm a journalist also, and I think Bill Moyers did just the journalistic job that was required for getting Justice Goldstone to explain his report, as well as his reaction to the general response to it. I saw no advocacy from Moyers of the Israeli position, not in the slightest.

    I came to the piece behind in my understanding of the report and the reaction it has caused, and it provided a great update and improved my knowledge. Exactly what was intended, I hope.

    I wonder if the negativitism isn't due to the commenters' own biases and expectations of Moyers, rather than Moyers' own?

    Just a few loose thoughts. And if you think I am wrong, do not get excited. I was wrong many times before:
    Mr. Moyers, you have brought up a very important subject, as you do so often. Thank you and congratulations. Of course, the scope of this program must be limited and could not cover the whole complex issue of the conflict.
    To zealots from boths sides: I suggest you listen attentively, and perhaps listen again before you start spitting venom at Messrs. Moyers and/or Goldstone. They are both very fine human beings, I think.
    To supporters of Palestinians: your pain is understandable but do not expect each and every issue to be discussed in a one-hour program.
    To "staunch supporters" of Israel: having supporters like you, Israel does not need enemies, it seems.
    Mr Goldstone seems to be no enemy of Palestinians. Moreover, he comes accross as a true friend of Israel, much more so than,e.g.: Mr. Netanyahu. The latter, as many other leaders of Israel seems to be bent on leading his country to many short time gains and to an ultimate disaster eventually, while killing a huge number of innocent and not-so-innocent people in the process. I hope they all have been blinded by some terribly misguided vision rather then being participants in a horrific secret plot. Or, perhaps, I am totaly blinded, which is a distinct possibility.
    jnh

    As an ex-newspaperman and a human rights activist with family ties to Israel, I looked forward to Bill Moyers’ interview with Judge Goldstone, hoping it would shed new light on the terrible events that took place earlier this year in Gaza. Well, it did shed new light--not on Gaza, but on Mr. Moyers. . At first I thought his aggressive line of questioning, favoring the Israeli positions, was a devil’s advocate tactic intended to probe beneath the surface and elicit more than routine responses from the Judge but as this persisted throughout the interview, I was dismayed to realize that Mr. Moyers’ advocacy sounded genuine, deeply felt and strongly meant.
    But was it possible? Bill Moyers an apologist for the murderous assault on the people of Gaza, held captive and all but helpless to resist? Moyers echoing the cynical slogan of the reactionary political right to justify this slaughter--that Israel has “the right to defend itself”? Moyers speaking in evident seriousness about the Hamas rockets launched against Israeli settlements as if these homemade fireworks matched in destructive power the overwhelming Israeli weaponry that laid waste to Gaza, killing more than 1,400 men, women and children, mostly non-combatants, compared to 13 Israelis, 3 of them civilians, a comparison Moyers somehow neglected to mention)?
    Those of us who have given Mr. Moyers high marks in past years for fairness, thoroughness and moderation, deserve some explanation from him now.

    Boy, some people just cannot face the truth about Israel. It's a state filled with Eastern European's whose ancestor's converted to Judaism in 850 AD, with no blood ties to the Middle East. They are not Biblical Jews, not even Judge Goldstone. A house built from the roof down cannot stand. The foundation for this lie will cause Israel to crumble.

    Continue the belief that the Gazans are bringing this upon themselves. I suppose that every Palestinian child in Gaza has a map of where all the tunnels, IEDs and other "camouflaged bits of sabotage" are so they can surpentine their way to school in the morning. Oh wait, there is no more school...the IDF blew it up, claiming that HAMAS was hiding out there.

    Yeah, that's it.

    One of the most interesting comments by Justice Goldstone is when he remarks that he had expected Israel to use its commandoes to overcome the Hamas forces and thereby keep civilian casualties to a minimum. Isn't that presumptuous on his part that he is telling the IDF how to fight a war.
    It is apparently of no importance to Goldstone that the IDF entering a city full of mines,IED's,booby traps and tunnels would cause enormus casualties of the Israeli soldiers. Even worse ,Israel would be fighting a war in which its enemy is controlling how the war is going to be fought. Is that insane or not?

    Bill Moyer's one sided interview with Justice Goldstone is an example why I will not contribute to PBS anymore. In the past 6 or so months, there have been 5 to 6 different hour/hour plus programs on our PBS station, all pro Israel, Jews in America, the Holocaust, etc etc. Now I am not prejudice against anyone but I couldn't help but notice this programming was a little too much in one direction. What about all the other nationalities that immigrated to America?

    Mr. Moyer's questioning of Justice Goldstone was a disgrace and I will now view him in a different light. I have read that even today, some Gazans live in mud huts because Israel controls the building materials that go into Gaza, as well as food and medicine, etc. With more people having access to other media and foreign news, people in America will have a better understanding of what is the truth.

    How can a "country" that is forever expanding its borders and illegally setting up settlements illegally, have a right to exist?

    How can a group such as the UN, who apportioned land for this purpose without a dunum of it belonging to itself, have a right to hand it over to another group, while there were the original people still living on that land?

    In the report Goldstone never mentions Hamas as firing rockets at Israel. It is just "Palestinian armed groups."
    While accusing Israel of targeting the entire civilian population in Gaza, Goldstone says nothing about Hamas and its covenant which very clearly states the objective of Hamas - the destruction of Israel.
    The report is clearly one-sided and biased against Israel.

    >> Israel does not place its military targets in civilian areas. It has tried to do this even before it was a state. It is fairly easy to distinguish Israeli military from civilian. This isn't just common courtesy. It is international law. It is Geneva Convention. To not do so would be a war crime.

    Israel is the most militarized society on the planet. Over 90% of Israeli adults are either active duty or active reserve soldiers. Soldiers are, by definition, valid military targets, even when they hide in civilian clothes.

    The IDF routinely uses the "civilian" bus system as a transport system for their soldiers. Therefore any attack on an Israeli bus, or an Israeli bus stop, is an attack on a valid military transport target.

    One cannot take a single step in Israel without being surrounded by valid military targets.

    Thank you for admitting that in this respect also, Israel is a nation of War Criminals.

    We should all thank Moyers for providing Goldstone with this platform to dispel the onslaught of vile and baseless accusations and straw-man attacks on his report and person. All who see and hear Goldstone calmly respond and explain in person will realize that he is a man of honesty and integrity. All should understand that this is the best Moyers can do without sacrificing his own career.

    In the report Goldstone never mentions Hamas as firing rockets at Israel. It is just "Palestinian armed groups."
    While accusing Israel of targeting the entire civilian population in Gaza, Goldstone says nothing about Hamas and its covenant which very clearly states the objective of Hamas - the destruction of Israel.
    The report is clearly one-sided and biased against Israel.

    Dang the megaphonies are out in force for this story. sorry but the louder you yell the more guilty you look. good luck with your hasbara -- the world isn't buying your crap anymore.

    Most of the countries in the Middle East did not exist until the division of the Middle East upon Britain's departure in the mid to late 1940's. The land was inhabited by many Arabs and some Jews and Christians. So the land was divided into Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and the Jewish homeland, Israel. The Arab tribes have refused to accept the creation of Israel and have waged multiple attacks, wars if you will, on the Jewish state, including the war when the UN created Israel in 1947. In this war alone, they stole land that was to be part of Israel. They kicked out all Jews, destroyed the Jewish holy cites and forbade Jews from entering the old city of Jerusalem, the Biblical capital of the Jews. In 1967, all these Arab countries and others massed on the Israeli borders and boasted that they were going to slaughter all Jews. Well, Israel turned the tables, defeated their armies and reclaimed its ancient capital, the walled city of Jerusalem. Israel returned land to Jordan and Egypt and, for the most part, peaceful relations exist between these countries and Israel. Israel gave Gaza back to the Palestinians and the Palestinians turned it into a missile launching site from which they attacked Israel for many years, dancing in the streets and giving out candy every time an Israeli was killed. Enough is enough. If the Palestinians in Gaza like to see death, they received it back in spades on their own streets. Israel did what it could to prevent mass civilian deaths. However, every country has to realize that when you start attacking another country, you put your own civilians at risk, especially when you use their homes, backyards, schools and mosques as instruments of war as the Gaza government did. The "war crimes" were those committed by Hamas, the Gaza government and the Gaza people who perpetrated the attacks on Israel. Israel just tried to stop the attacks. To this day, the Arabs have not accepted the right of Jews to their homeland and are still shooting missiles from Gaza and southern Lebanon into Israel. All those who criticize Israel, including those who attack Israel on this and other blogs, would be crying their hearts out to their government if missiles were flying over their heads. They are absolute hypocrites to demand that Israelis accept this situation. If the Gaza government won't stop the attacks, then they sentence their civilians to the terrors that war brings. If the Palestinians and their Arab backers want peace, then all they have to do is agree to recognize the Jewish state, stop the threat of attacks and have respectful dialogue with the Israel government. Instead, the Palestinians demand that all Jews leave, Israel not be Jewish, no Jewish worship on the Temple mount, shoot missiles and threaten war. The Goldstone report is not even worthy enough to be called toilet paper.

    I refer you to the testimony of Col. Kemp:
    Testimony at the UN

    Self-Defense is not a Crime of War

    UN Watch Oral Statement
    Delivered by Colonel Richard Kemp, 16 October 2009

    UN Human Rights Council: 12th Special Session

    Thank you, Mr. President.

    I am the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan. I served with NATO and the United Nations; commanded troops in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Macedonia; and participated in the Gulf War. I spent considerable time in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, and worked on international terrorism for the UK Government’s Joint Intelligence Committee.

    Mr. President, based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defence Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

    Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population.


    Hamas, like Hizballah, are expert at driving the media agenda. Both will always have people ready to give interviews condemning Israeli forces for war crimes. They are adept at staging and distorting incidents.

    The IDF faces a challenge that we British do not have to face to the same extent. It is the automatic, Pavlovian presumption by many in the international media, and international human rights groups, that the IDF are in the wrong, that they are abusing human rights.

    The truth is that the IDF took extraordinary measures to give Gaza civilians notice of targeted areas, dropping over 2 million leaflets, and making over 100,000 phone calls. Many missions that could have taken out Hamas military capability were aborted to prevent civilian casualties. During the conflict, the IDF allowed huge amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza. To deliver aid virtually into your enemy's hands is, to the military tactician, normally quite unthinkable. But the IDF took on those risks.

    Despite all of this, of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes.

    More than anything, the civilian casualties were a consequence of Hamas’ way of fighting. Hamas deliberately tried to sacrifice their own civilians.

    Mr. President, Israel had no choice apart from defending its people, to stop Hamas from attacking them with rockets.

    And I say this again: the IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.

    Thank you, Mr. President.



    Fri Oct 16, 2009 10:09 am

    I eagerly look forward to your weekly journal. I have always found it to be the most civil and intelligent hour on TV. However, I was appalled at the pro-Israeli position that you took with Richard Goldstone.It was like you were leading the witness, so to speak, to change his opinion. Perhaps you should accompany Judge Goldstone to spend some time in Gaza (not just a hotel visit) to see the destruction and brutality that the Israelis have inflicted on the Palestinian people. BTW, go to Lebanon, also!

    Why isn't it acknowledged that Palestine is being illegally occupied by Israel? Although the international community admits this, they do nothing about it. What are the Palestinians supposed to do while the Israeli builds more settlements and walls on Palestinian territory, destroys its resources, imprisons and kills all its effective leaders whether peaceful or not? Israel demands recognition of its statehood but refuses to recognize Palestinian right to statehood. While Israel justifies its right to defend itself, it refuses the right of Palestinians to defend themselves. Palestinians, after all, don't have planes and sophisticated arms so they can destroy Israel's military targets. All they can really do is protest and lob bombs and the nearest Israeli village. When they do that, they are called terrorists. Even peaceful protestors are thrown in jail. When Israelis target Palestinian villages it is called a mistake or collateral damage. Until Israel starts to treat the Palestinians fairly by withdrawing from its territories, dismantling the illegal settlements and walls built on Palestinian territory, it should not be seen as an innocent victim defending itself against terror. But peace doesn’t seem to be Israel’s motive. It seems clear that Israel’s real motive is to gain as much land as possible from the Palestinians.

    The problem of the Israel-Palestine discussions is that 50% of people immediately go off topic and into the problem of who is Jewish or who are Illuminati. The other 50% (defenders of Israel) make sure that most of the status quo is accepted and they discuss only recent variations in the strategy of the occupation. The real problem, however, is only one - who legally owns what.

    Jewish STATE clearly is not the legal owner of any land there. There was, of course, a way for the Jews to live there: they had enough money. Yet, they repeated the terrible mistake of Moses who used force to get water - Zionists used force to acquire the "right" of ownership. True, America was occupied the same way, but the time now is different.

    Characteristically, Israel's arguments go back into history and religion. They are irrelevant and ridiculous. Nothing is available to Israel now, but the irrationality of a cult and the savagery of the past millenia. That must be stopped.

    One more point follows. Arabs, Moslems are painted as inherently, historically uncivilised and undemocratic Barbarians threatening our civilisation. The truth is: 1. The earth under the Moslem lands contains treasures, but start digging under the Jewish ghettoes and you will find no even remotely comparable civilization. 2. Moslems were never racists, their society was inherently multi-national. 3. Moslems never had social problems and never had revolutions. The society was ruled, unlike our West, locally (democratically) and on the basis of God's law and morality.

    The deliberate destruction of Moslem cultural heritage and art and the anti-Moslem propaganda must be stopped.

    I fully endorse Goldstone's report.He did his job very well.
    We get carried away by our sentiments for the blind support for one side or the other.That obsures the facts of the atrocities committed by their favorite party.

    Bill Moyer is a fine journalist.It reminds me the old saying
    that don't judge the book by its cover rather than its content.

    I find it hard to believe the many comments along the lines of "Bill Moyers is too pro-Israel in this interview, because he so aggressively questioned Judge Goldstone". Mr. Moyers conducted the interview with an eye toward Judge Goldstone's detractors on this topic, and by asking adversarial questions he allowed Judge Goldstone to provide detailed responses to those objections. It was a brilliant interview by Mr. Moyers, and an equally brilliant Judge Goldstone demolished the usual pro-Israel talking points.

    What seems to be left out is the fact that
    Israel gets billions of U.S. dollars annually(more than any other country) and it was
    U.S. military support that devastated Gaza so isn't the U.S. a participant in the
    crime?
    Also the fact that Hamas was voted in in
    the most democratic fair election. Compare that to the Afghanstan leader
    that the U.S. supports.

    As a longtime fan of Bill Moyers and the Journal, i am deeply saddened by his one-side, antagonistic approach during his interview with Justice Goldstone. i have always felt that a good journalist should try to be even handed, and even occasionally play the devils advocate to bring out more substance to an issue, but watching Bill Moyers try and perform a hatchet job on Justice Goldstone, and the truth, is very dismaying.
    One only has to watch Bill Moyers body language to see the transformation. In all the years i have been watching his programs i have never seen him leaning so far forward, tight lipped, with a finger wagging accusatory attitude, as in his interview with Justice Goldstone.
    i have personally been to Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and have witnessed the daily degradation, harassment, and harships inflicted upon the Palestinian people by the IDF and the settlers who are illegally occupying Palestinian land. i was surprised that neither Justice Goldstone or Mr. Moyers ever brough up the fact that the International Court at the Hague ruled 16 to 1 that the Apartheid Wall that Israel has built is illegal. Just a side note, the ony judge at the Hague who ruled in favor of Israel, was an American who is Jewish.
    You cannot ignore Nabka, and over 50 years of brutal occupation, and then point the finger at Hamas for firing missles into Israel.
    Mr. Moyers, you have lost my respect.

    Legally, Israel still occupies Gaza (by controlling its people, airspace and borders). Judge Goldstone expressed a truly admirable commitment to international law. Yet, when looking at Israel's actions in Gaza, he ignored the very specific and weighty responsibilities that international law places on Occupying Forces such as Israel. Curious.

    Yes, war crimes were committed by both sides,that is the inherent nature of war, it shows the true nature of the dark side of humanity. What needs to be addressed is the fact that since inception Israel has done nothing to instill friendship and peace with it's neighbours, and instead continues to STEAL land that does not belong to them and continues to hold Gazan civilians in some draconian prison camp called GAZA, with what seems to be the full support of supposed Democratic countries. Zionism needs to be addressed for what it is, an ideology of superiority over others and to have the capability to act like a tyranical peoples,there are many Israeli's who do not agree with what Israel is doing but, do we ever hear from them, NO we don't as the Zionists claim they are not Jewish enough,(say what). Even the Elders who toured the area found agregious crimes committed against Palestinians, as Goldstone mentioned "Where the hell were they supposed to go" and that is the bottom line for many civilized citizens. When Israel leaders openly brag about being the ones in control of the United States Gov. we are left with the only conclusion of the United States Gov. being complicite in the destruction of Palestine and neighbouring sovereign countries,and therefore due to this collusion the United States Gov. and all other Gov. who support this odious ideology of zionsim will continue to be guilty of aiding and abetting a rogue nation bent on the annilation of a certain peoples,& therefore guilty of Crimes against Humanity.The Balfour Declaration written by zionists for zionists needs to be minutely explored to show why Israel is the way it is. Endevouring to hold Israel accountable for it's atrocities has been tried before by JFK,and we know how that went. If anything this report and Goldstones efforts at trying to get anything out of the IDF or Israeli Gov. and how they treated him shows that no matter what the Israeli Gov. does,Governments around the world will turn a blind eye SHAME. Were it not for zionism the Arabs and Jews would be living in relative Peace as they did for thousands of years before the Crusades came along, and continue today.
    ZIONISM is not a religion it is the most odious of ideologies, that favours one ethnic group of people over ALL others.

    Thank you Bill Moyers for your interview with Justice Richard Goldstone. What is legal and ethical are not always the same. A judge must look at actions and reactions to that initial action and measure the use of over used force. Like killing ants with a sledge hammer.
    I doubt that my fellow Jews in Israel will have the courage to examine over zealot military actions of ethnic cleansing? I am a survivor of Dachau. Jack boot diplomacy is jack boot diplomacy. Isreal or my country right never wrong! Sad, but someday Israel will meet the same fate as the Soviet Union, implode on itself when the world refuses to support their many wars and land grabs. There is no business like Shoa-business... Sol

    This is my second posting. Israel should not be committing crimes against civilians. PERIOD. But, in my posting at 2:41 under Alan, I was directing my statements to the anti-Zionist posters. Whether you like it or not, Israel is the Jewish Homeland, and it's unrealistic to ask them to concede. A more practical technique for the Palestinians is to change leadership, change thinking about Israel and work towards practical measures for coexistence and peace. The black and white thinking of extremists is a repeated impediment to peace and to their ability to improve their conditions. It's time for them to be practical and think about the welfare of their people, and the rest of the world would be more happy to aid them and ensure the prospects of coexistence. When it comes to this solution, I believe Israel has been much more agreeable about bringing it about than Hamas and its extremist leadership representatives. They are short-changing their own people and it's a shame. Peace can be possible; they just have to stop their anti-semitism and allow this possibility to be finally realized.

    Goldstone's report needs to be reported on, but this interview was seriously deficient. Mr. Moyers' questions seemed to assume two equal armies. This was more than taking the devil's advocate role. Moyers seems to have swallowed the MSM version of poor, defenseless Israel, surrounded by hateful and warlike neighbors. What about UN resolutions? What about rules about occupying powers? What about US complicity? And Goldstone indicates that the US is the world's standard for human rights with no playing devil's advocate ragarding that claim. Very disappointing, disgusting even.

    Mr, Moyers, I believe that your credibility, and the respect that people may have had...had for you was severely compromised by the way that you had conducted your interview with Mr. Goldstone last night. At the start of the interview both yourself and Mr. Goldstone acknowledged the fact that Israel had a right to defend itself against rockets being fired on their settlements. I would ask you Mr. Moyers and Mr. Goldstone, what was Israel doing while these rockets were falling....nothing, not hardly. It's never mentioned that Israel for the last 5 years have fired into the Gaza Strip over 7000 155 mm artillery shells and killing close to 1400 people. What role did those artillery shelling play in the Palestinians firing retaliatory rockets at Israeli settlements? Many seem to have forgotten that infamous incident that was shown throughout the world on June 9, 2006, where a distressed 11 year old girl mourning the loss of her family who were hit by an artillery shell, and killed while spending a family outing on the beach. I could imagine many rockets being fired at Israrli settlements because of that incident.

    Mr. Moyers, I wonder if Amy Goodman has seen your interview with Mr. Goldstone yet, and if so what does she think of you.....now?

    An Excellant link for exposing the other major factor in this continuing, heart breaking, conflict http://www.christianzionism.org/default.asp

    The approach of devil's advocate on this segment was unexpectedly jarring. Even the judge seemed to be unsettled by it, and that is a pity as Mr. Moyers is usually able to elicit a memorable conversation from the subjects of his interviews.

    We do all have short attention spans these days, but not to have mentioned similar tactics on the part of Israel when they destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon made said approach seem callous at the very least.

    I well remember one of the first, if not the first, of the "Now" programs Mr. Moyers did - on Israel and the cozy cohabitation between it and the right wing Christian movement, something which obviously persists to this day. I would point out that among Palestinians there are many Christians, all of whom are suffering under the stresses of continuing encroachment of their lands and the indignities and dangers of occupation. I indeed think that the report tries to be too 'fair and balanced' in this respect - the example of the Warsaw ghetto is not far fetched. As the good judge kept saying, "Where were they to go?"

    The right and the Israelis will not give ground even when the attempt is made to meet them more than halfway. Sadly, Obama still has to learn this lesson.

    Mr. Moyers, these kinds of trades with whomever makes the decisions give us all a sadder weekend. But thank you for all you do.

    Bill, how can you not realize that what Hamas does, morally wrong as it might be, is in response to the fact that Israel is an occupying power?
    Bill, how can you not realize that Israel is a brutal occupying power on top of it? You criticize the USA keeping prisoners in Guantanamo without trial for years, and that is exactly what Israel has been doing for years to thousand of Palestinians.
    How come this double standards? How can you speak of morality when you seem to apply it only on occasion?
    And how can you forget that Israel owes its existence to the UN, much as it maligns it now?

    I am amused by the comments of the pro-Israelis here. They must be the ones who volunteered to work for Israel's foreign ministry to come on boards like this and shill for Israel.
    http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10671.shtml

    The most poignant part of this interview was when Goldstone remarked at his amazement of the kindness of the Palestinian people, who welcomed him with open arms and cooperated fully in this investigation. However, the Israelis refused, and only came to a decision NOT to cooperate two months AFTER the investigation had already started to take place! That's all you need to know.

    www.ifamericansknew.org This is what you need to know about Israel and Palestine.

    Again, Goldstone found the bombings of Operation Cast Lead to be disproportionate, but he does not go far enough in condemning the apartheid wall, the increased building of Israeli settlements in occupied territories (does that last statement sound like a nation with defined borders), check points, homes being plowed under, water supplies being contaminated, snipers shooting kids picking strawberries, olive groves being destroyed, etc. These things are going on on a daily basis, but Goldstone, who worked vigorously to end apartheid in his own South Africa, is strangely silent on the same things goin on in Palestine.

    What do people expect, impartiality. Moyers was undoubtedly told beforehand by his handlers at PBS what was expected of him during his interview. I have no doubt that the questions that Moyers asked Goldstone were actually probably written or extensively edited by these very same handlers.

    The interview was simply an ambush by the supporters of Israel to deflect the increasingly negative effects on Israel of the Goldstone Report. Moyers provided the willing and obedient stooge to do this. Old Bill has always known, way back to his days working for Lyndon Johnson, which side his bread is buttered on. You only have to think back to his hostility to the findings of Mearsheimer and Walt as regards Israeli influence to confirm this.

    Face it, for decades PBS has been a totally controlled appendage of the Israeli government. It is merely showing, once more, its true colors.

    I am really surprised that someone like Bill Moyers, whose reports I follow with respect both for the quality of reporting and balance, is so clearly biased in favor of Israel. Do you, Bill, understand that Gazans launch rockets against that part of the land that was their only 40 years ago and from which they have been chased away? Don't you realize that terrorism is the ineffective reply of the downtrodden?
    I am really sorry to see you taking this position.

    Bill Moyers, didn't know you were a shill for the Israeli lobby. Well done. Thanks for unmasking yourself during this interview. Now those of us who are truly progressive and truly care about peace and justice know you can be safely be ignored and consigned to the "typical mainstream media puppet" file.

    Polite War? That’s akin to saying, appropriate, organized, mass murder. This premise is a glaring red flag to the whole Human psyche. When the supposed most humanitarian aggregates of Humans come to wholesale acceptance of a world view that includes war as an absolute, we need to call the BIG time out. We need a worldwide pause for reflection because, such a worldview points to our own inevitable self extinction, the mass suicide of the Human-WE. We are in total crisis and have reached a point requiring critical attention. Our attention to our own world view.

    For millennia, we have been calling for a cure to what ails the Human heart. For millennia, we’ve been longing for and seeking for Peace in the collection of our individual Human hearts.

    These longings and calling forth for healing and peace are not some naïve notion of childish pretense. These deep desires are the natural assertions of Balance and Harmony, that without which existence could not exist. Balance and Harmony are REAL FORCES and so is Peace.

    It’s not only grossly naïve to approach Human Life as if Peace is impossible, it’s grotesquely regressive to continue to believe that war can NEVER end.

    A great thought experiment is to determine your REAL WORLDVIEW by shrinking it to a ONE ROOM VIEW. By shrinking the macro to the micro you can more fully appreciate what you are REALLY believing about Humanity and what you’ve simply acclimated to. This thought game allows you to see clearly what truly matches your personal choice for the world and what does NOT match your personal ideals. This is how it works.

    Create a scale model of Humanity by placing 100 families of 3 (300 people) in a building that’s 360 ft. long and 160 ft. wide (57,600 sq. ft.). That’s the size of an enclosed American football field. In your thought experiment, the building has no real walls inside, everyone is exposed to everyone else. One world, one room.

    Now, divvy up the resources for living amongst the people the way it currently is on earth. Take 90% of the food and shelter and give it to 1 % of the population (1 family of 3). Take a full sixth of the people (17 Families) and force them completely out of the shelter and only give them random refuse for food and water. But, make sure there are giant windows so that even though these people are “outside” we can still see them, we just can’t hear them. Now take the remaining 82% of the people, cram them into 10 % of the space and only give them 70% access to food if they trade, STRAIGHT ACROSS, 70% of their personal awake time. In other words, 70% access to food will cost you 70% of your waking Life.

    This is our current world scenario in the most basic economic sense. Does this really match your view of Human civilization, of the full potential of Humanity? Does this setup seem at all logical, practical, reasonable and most importantly, DESIREABLE to you personally?
    Now, place yourself back in the room and witness the incestuous growth of the 1% family and the warped affects of hoarding food and shelter that infects their visage with the cannibal smile and the psychosis of entitlement to pressure the 82% with the THREAT of POVERTY (which we can see right out the window) and use access to adequate food and minimal shelter (physical security) as trading leverage. With this undue leverage the 1% literally usurps women and children for sexual slavery and orphanizes Human children by propagating war among the stressed out 82% who are already warped in violence from over crowding and under-resourcing. The pressure of poverty has bent the 82% into self- sacrificing enablers of the 1%.

    These are the warped characteristics of our species out of Balance. When we’re imbalanced, we’re warped. War is War-page.

    Go back to the room and call a TIME-OUT!! Bring the folks in from outside, get everyone together and have a REVIEW and a DO OVER vote. This time, let’s make it a shared priority that every family has a home with room to thrive, that each home is a sanctuary and to be treated as such. Let’s make sure that ALL the people have PLENTY of food and clean water. And while we’re at it, let’s make a pact to NEVER orphanize another Human child, to never kill another Human. Let’s agree to the sanctity of Human Life and to creating a sacred Life together. Let’s practice Peace and Friendship and teach it to our children. Let’s make Freedom, Equality and Love the living legacy of our collective creation here in the "room" we call EARTH.

    If this latter view matches your personal preference for life in the room and is desirable and freeing to you then, join a modern day revolution that is happening among your contemporaries now. The 250Boycott is free to join, it’s legal, it’s peaceful and all you have to do to join is to put a homemade 250BOYCOTT sign in your window or a 250BOYCOTT bumper sticker on your car. Check out the “Max Trinity” series on youtube to see if this matches your own gut feelings. Peace to you.

    Here is the link to Part 6 “The Philosophy”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMGqXJdEYLg

    Brian

    Great points.

    The unfortunate reality of the Goldstone report is that it is one small example of the situation, as it has unfolded over the last several decades. To take this most recent assault on the Gaza Strip as the sole example of the injustice perpetrated upon the Palestinian people is ignoring the history of this conflict.

    Israel has been the occupation force for well over 40 years. In this time, we have watched as more land has been taken, illegal settlements have erupted, and Palestinian men, women, and children have been killed in outrageous numbers.

    No amount of foot stamping, whining, claims of 'inequality', etc. are going to change the fact that the activities by Israel, for at least the last 40 years, will not be forgotten.

    As many commenters have stated, Israel only has itself to blame for this mess. Refusal to stop the illegal colonization, the constant claims of victim hood, the home demolitions, the pseudo-legal takeover of Palestinian property, the wall, the obvious manipulations of many national governments... all this is adding up, and Israel has lost practically all support of the people, in addition they are beginning to lose the support of the compromised governments to keep covering for their war crimes.

    In short, Israel is reaping what they have sown.

    Surely, Mr. Moyers, you know more than you indicate in this pro-Israeli interview. You must have some knowledge of the Geneva Convention, you can't help but know the difference between Jew and Israeli, you surely know more of Israeli-Palestinian history than you indicate. You went out of your way to try and discredit a brave and honorable humanitarian. Please take the time to view Simone Bitton's films, particularly her "Palestine, Story of a Land." Incidentally Ms. Bitton is Jewish, as is Mr. Goldstone. The University of Washington loans Simone Bitton's production "Palestine Story of a Land" free of charge to teachers at K12, college and university levels. I'm sure you could easily get a copy. Please become better informed, Mr. Moyers, before you attempt another interview.

    Contradictions:
    1. On the one hand the world considers Hamas a terrorist organization, and refuses to acknowledge or deal with it, and shuts off the entire population where Hamas exists from the rest of the world. On the other hand they want Hamas to abide by international law and set up an "internal investigation". That is just silly!!
    2. On the one hand the judge states that "operation cast lead" was motivated by political reasons, punishing the people for electing their representatives. On the other, he says the operation was a response to the Qassam rocket shelling. which is it judge? coz it makes the whole difference in the world! This takes us back to the idiotic question of who started the aggression, the question that the media blew up tremendously during the onslaught on Gaza. The answer is that Israel broke the ceasefire, and it's not the rockets to blame. He should have investigated that too in addition to the several-year siege on Gaza. All of this, and the occupation, and the refugees, and Israel's undefined borders and so on... all of this should have been in the investigation.

    Thank you Mr. Moyers for your brave and brilliant reporting and interview of Mr. Goldstone and his latest UN Report. Your line of questioning left little doubt as to whom welded the true terror, brute and devastation in this decades long tragedy. There will never be peace unless the sole issue of 'Justice' is enforced/applied. Justice for the Palestinians and Justice for the Israelis as all life must be treated equal and worthy.

    Your next challenge should be to confront the religious and political ramifications of Christian Zionism. An excellent expert and scholar could be the Dr. Rev. Stephen Sizer whose latest book 'Zion's Christian Soldiers?' plainly exposes the heresy of this false doctrine that manipulates this conflict in a sick and devious way that, supposedly, will speedily facilitate the return of Christ and supposed Armageddon.

    Thank you Mr. Moyers for your continued journalistic integrity.

    Attacks on flour mills and olive groves rile up the Palestinian population against actors over whom they have little control (weakened to the point of despair as they are), those who send mostly low-range, ineffectual rockets into Israel. My problem with Israel is that they are deliberately riling the Palestinians, every one of them, even those who might once have been unhappy with constant fighting and willing to negotiate. It seems Likud Israel wants to alienate all the Palestinians, who have the footage on what Israel has done, to share with the Moslem world. I wonder if this is how their Soviet grandparents behaved towards countries they wished to subdue. A little history of that era is in order to learn what techniques they have pursued from it. Americans do not study footage of dead Palestinian children , though it must be burned into the brains of the youth of the Moslem world. There is a mind game going on, and Israel is running the American side of it, because they have anticipated exactly this effect, while lobbying strongly to make sure that when Wolf Blitzer is not foisting balloon hoaxes on the public, he is speaking the Likud party line. Who wouldn't hate a nation destroying their livelihood? What's the point? I think that's the question about Israel. Where are they going? Yes, they are great at arms technology, and creating ever more nano- and surveillance-based weapons, blurring the boundaries between a war zone and a home, as Americans now understand. For which we should all be terribly grateful, as we partner with them to subdue the earth (until that shocking day when they dump us for China!). Mindless acceptance of their every whim, and lack of mental boundaries because they somehow represent the "West" has got to stop. A critical appraisal of where they and we are going in the Mideast is necessary, or all our humanistic traditions are doomed (ridiculed by talkshow louts who whip the public into a frenzy against liberalism). While our relations with Israel, a country of mostly secular Jews, may grow from a sense of religious commonality, I think it is largely a one-way love affair. I feel we are being led down the primrose path to hell, speaking of religion, as we grant them carte blanche for their every move towards the Palestinians based on a vague concept of self-defense which cannot be carefully examined. We have conveniently forgotten that many Palestinians are Christians, just as we forgot about that when we aided in the recent attacks by Israel on Lebanon, where there were 40,000 American retirees of Lebanese descent. The bias is just too extreme these days. It has to change or we will stop being the country where human rights has a chance. .

    Under international law, the Fourth Geneva Convention recognizes Palestinian resistance to the occupation as legitimate and legal, especially because the Israelis are deliberately transferring a civilian population into occupied territories, which legally makes every single Jewish settler a member of the occupying army and a legitimate target for the indigenous people of Palestine.

    Simply put, the UN Human Rights Council didn't "call out" the Palestinians or Hamas because under the terms of the Fourth Geneva Convention, what they're doing is legal and legitimate resistance to an occupying army... it's no different than what the French Resistance did during WW II. By contrast, everything Israel is doing is illegal."

    THIS is how they view those rockets when no TV cameras are around:
    MANY MORE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN CAR ACCIDENTS .........
    A Wedding in Ashdod during the War with Hamas
    Posted by Mordechai Friedfertig at 10:06 AM
    [Question from Ha-Rav's radio call-in show from this week]
    Question: Is it permissible to travel to a wedding in Ashdod (in Southern Israel) which is in range of the Kassam and Grad rockets or is it forbidden based on the commandment of "You shall surely safeguard your soul" (Devarim 4:15, 23:11)?
    Answer: It is permissible. There is a clear distinction in Halachah between a high-probability danger and a low-probability danger. If this were not the case, we would not be able to travel in a car since every year, to our great distress, six hundred people are killed in car accidents in Israel. Many more people have been killed in car accidents since the establishment of the State of Israel than all of the Kassam rockets and all of the terrorist attacks and all of the wars, even when they are added together. We nonetheless travel in cars, obviously with the required cautions, since this is called "a non-frequent damage" in Halachah (Pesachim 8b). In our time there are statistical tools to verify the frequency of a danger. There is a halachic responsum on this subject by Ha-Gaon Ha-Rav Yitzchak Zilberstein, Rabbi of "Ramat Elchanan" (neighborhood in Bnei Brak). A student was learning in a yeshiva in "Yesha" (Yehudah, Shomron or Gush Katif) and his parents were concerned about the danger. Rav Zilberstein proves that "a frequent damage" is five percent. This means that if – G-d forbid – five percent of the students of the yeshiva were murdered, it would be forbidden to learn in that yeshiva. This is obviously far from reality - Baruch Hashem - since the Kassam and Grad rockets are not killing five percent of the population. In fact, Ha-Gaon Ha-Rav Yitzchak Isaac Herzog in Shut Heichal Yitzchak proves based on Shut Rabbi Akiva Eiger (#60) that a frequent danger is not five percent, but one in a thousand, but - Baruch Hashem - Kassam and Grad rockets are not killing one in a thousand people either.
    Furthermore, it is permissible to take a "small risk" for the sake of a mitzvah and bringing joy to a groom and bride is a mitzvah. The Tiferet Yisrael discusses this principle on the Mishnah in Massechet Berachot at the end of chapter one. There is a story about Rabbi Tarfon who said the Shema at night while reclining according to the view of Beit Shammai. He endangered himself while doing so and the Sages admonished him for following the view of Beit Shammai instead of Beit Hillel. But the question remains: Why did Rabbi Tarfon endanger himself, since reciting the Shema is not in the category of "Be killed and do not transgress," i.e. requiring one to sacrifice his life for its fulfillment? The Tiferet Yisrael explains that it was permissible since there was only a small risk of danger. There is an additional proof from when Rabbi Akiva was in jail, and he used the water he received for "netilat yadayim" (ritually washing his hands) instead of for drinking. The halachic authorities ask: How could Rabbi Akiva endanger his life for this practice? The answer is that Rabbi Akiva understood that he would obtain more water, the danger he was taking was extremely minute and it is permissible to take a small risk for a mitzvah. This is also the ruling found in "Pitchei Teshuvah" (Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 157).
    In conclusion:
    a. A non-frequent danger is not considered a danger according to Halachah and the danger in Ashdod is a non-frequent one.
    b. It is permissible to take a minimal risk for a mitzvah and bringing joy to a groom and bride is a mitzvah.

    I don't know exactly what Israel has done. I imagine that the attacks on flour mills and olive groves are supposed to rile up the Palestinian population against people over whom they have little control (weakened to the point of despair as they are), those who send rockets into Israel. My problem with Israel is that they are deliberately riling the Palestinians, every one of them, even those who might once have been unhappy with constant fighting. It seems Israel wants to alienate all the Palestinians, who have the footage on what Israel has done, to share with the Moslem world. This footage is not studied by Americans. There is a mind game going on, and Israel is the one running it. Who wouldn't hate a nation destroying their livelihood? What's the point? I think that's the question about Israel. Where are they going? Yes, they are great at arms technology, and creating ever more nano- and surveillance-based weapons, blurring the boundaries between a war zone and a home, as Americans now understand. For which we should all be terribly grateful, as we partner with them to subdue the earth. Mindless acceptance of their every whim, and lack of mental boundaries because they somehow represent the "West" has got to stop. A critical appraisal of where they and we are going in the Mideast is necessary, or all our humanistic traditions are doomed (ridiculed by talkshow louts who whip the public into a frenzy against liberalism). While our relations with Israel, a country of mostly secular Jews, may grow from a sense of religious commonality, I think it is largely a one-way love affair. I feel we are being led down the primrose path to hell, speaking of religion, as we grant them carte blanche for their every move towards the Palestinians based on a vague concept of self-defense which cannot be carefully examined.

    Through the history ruthless, disciplined and brutal Barbarians were able to conquer great countries of Greece, Egypt, Romans.. I think, that our western civilization is also in danger, because growing ranks of Modern Barbarians, are raised from early childhood to explode and to kill.

    So, what is the role of modern “human rights“ organizations? Where are they when these Barbarians explode markets, restaurants, hotels, schools? Where were they, when citizens of Gaza were sharing sweets, and singing songs after 9/11, after thousands of innocents were perished ? And where were they during the 8 years of rocket terror in Sderot in addition to many other civilian targets? Where they are now, when current Hezbollah significantly increased military arsenal in Lebanon, under watchful eye of UN and, despite of the signed international agreement? It seems that Goldstone may have to be prepared for another report?

    Mr. Goldstone worries about former food factory in Gaza, which, he is sure, was not a rocket shelter. The price of one tunnel for transportation of Iranian rockets is $100.000. How many of these tunnels were and are now built? How many kids could be fed for this money? And, understanding intensity of population in that area what kind of responsibility Hamas is holding to provoke military strikes of these territories? They tried it for 8 years! So, where were these “human” organizations at this time?

    “Human rights” are not calling Russia, (with 11 hours time difference from West to East), as an occupier. Russia, which is still holding a couple islands of overpopulated Japan! The answer of Russian Government is simple -- they are winners of the War. But tinny Israel, which has to fight and win to survive, is an occupier! And where in the world you can find a country, which while bombing the enemies, hiding among women and kids, let them to know about it in advance?

    So, where are these “human” organizations? And where they would be, when turn will come to other countries?
    The only positive aspect of Goldstone report, that it could sparkle and mobilize people, who can see wider picture, to change the system of these Inhuman “Human” organizations, and to change the rules .


    Bill, from a huge fan of your programs and persona i almost threw my dinner at the TV watching your frankly horrendous interview. AIPAC could not have framed the issue better than you did.
    So just all of sudden Hamas started firing rockets into Israel? I would think the questions were submitted by Avigdor Lieberman himself. Your one-sided interview was infuriating to say the least.
    Gaza is an open air prison under the yoke of the brutal power Israel, simple as that!
    Maybe you could do some soul searching through justice Justice of Texas. That man displayed courage and fairness unlike you.

    Bill Moyers, your actions in this interview are despicable. You have proven yourself to be just another shrill. The israeli government are the terrorists.

    The statement often repeated "Israel has a right to defend itself" has been used by whores for Israel trying to justify the slaughter of Palestinians who are the true inhabitants of the land. Check the past and current maps of Israel and Palestine and decicde for yourself. Any Israeli living outside of the 1967 borders is squatting on Palestininian land to which he has no claim and no right. If said squatters are attacked, such action cannot be deemed as terror since they have no right being there as recognized by the Border issue. This is anologous to someone coming into my home, throwing me out into the streets and when I resist, I am branded terrorist. The UN has done little of consequence to stop Israeli atrocities. Many world citizens have voiced their outrage, but the atrocities continue while the suffering of these helpless Palestinians continue. These people are denied proper food, medicines, and basic shelter and the UN continues to demonstrate its inability to change the course of Palestinians. It is time for the world to go beyond protest. It is time to bring an end to this beast. It is time for the worlds citizens of conscience to boycott every product Israel sells in other countries. It is time the world's population demand that their governments in truly democratic fashion expel all Israeli diplomats and sanction Israel for not only what it is doing to Palestinians but to a lesser extent the world at large. Or is "democracy" a tool for the elite only?

    Israel is dying a a death of a thousand cuts by accusations brazenly based on admitted moral equivalency and moral relativism. By allowing such arguments to be legitimized; individuals, states and international organizations are threatening the foundations of reason and endangering the very concepts of justice and peace. Not to mention fanning the flames of a new wave of international antisemitism. Goldstone is obviously at the vanguard of legitimizing this new age of moral confusion.

    Even by his own standards he refuses to apply rational arguments.

    First he espouses proportionality and second he insists on distinguishing between combatants and civilians according to geneva conventions.

    What is proportionality? Because Israel has superior firepower its response is always taken as disproportionate. Yet everyone tacitly knows; If Israel's enemies had such superiority they would never show such restraint as Israel has shown (nuclear Iran). So where does intent enter the equation? Hamass has stated its intent is to wipe Israel off the map, as have their patrons in Iran. Israel has absolutely fulfilled proportionality by NOT attempting to wipe Gaza off the map. If Goldstone had his way, Britain would be guilty of war crimes for violating Nazi Germany's territory in World War II. So Germany threw a few bombs at them. So what? Britians threw a few bombs back. No reason to destroy Nazi Germany's sovereignty. Reason demands any rational definition of proportionality to be viewed as fulfilled in Israel's favor. Contrary to Goldstone's assertions, the first thing the United States did in Iraq and Afghanistan was to destroy infrastructure. Infrastructure is not the same thing as people. But one could excuse European and Arab representative to the UN for deciding the destruction of infrastructure their member states paid for was a 'war crime'.

    But what of distinguishing civilian from militant? It isn't entirely an illegitimate question. Though the mirage of collective punishment is illegitimate.

    People throughout history have always paid the price for whatever tyrants they elect or allow to seize power. Germany did. Japan did. Russia did. China did. One might say the United State is paying such a price now. Hamas was elected... as meaningless as that is in a place where saying, "I think we should make peace with Israel" could get you killed. But back to distinguishing between military and civilian.

    Israel does not place its military targets in civilian areas. It has tried to do this even before it was a state. It is fairly easy to distinguish Israeli military from civilian. This isn't just common courtesy. It is international law. It is Geneva Convention. To not do so would be a war crime. Nobody mentions this because most of the Islamic members of the UN would be guilty of this particular war crime. They instead feel entitled to radically reinterpret the facts, as Goldstone does. They think, because Israel has manged to turn itself into such an enlightened sophisticated western society, it is entirely its responsibility to figure out who is civilian and who is militant. Yet it seems all forms of Jihad encourage militants to hide amidst the civilian populations. And many if not most Islamist civilian populations willingly act as human shields. The Geneva Convention doesn't allow for this, even if Goldstone does. It is utmost hypocrisy to curse the wall Israel built, which stops Arabs from sending their children strapped with bombs who blow themselves up amongst Israeli children, but cry war crime when they launch rockets and then hide behind the exact same Arab children. We should instead spend our sympathies more wisely. What of the Israeli who must kill civilian Arab children to get the terrorists aiming for Israeli children? One wishes that Golda Meir were still around to set Goldstone straight, “We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.” Unless evidence can be brought to the contrary the war crime of dead Arab civilians should be laid at the feet of those most responsible for it: Hamas.

    This moral equivalency must end. We need clear rational thinking to take over. The international community is making a mockery of itself and tying morality and reason into knots. Perhaps it is because they can't ask themselves the hard questions.

    What if the Arabs aren't worthy of a state? What if there isn't a two state solution? What if there can never be a 'Palestinian' state next to Israel? What then? Whom do we chose? Israel? Or the Terrorists?

    Goldstone's report can only make sense to someone unable to ask themselves these hard fundamental questions.

    Ben Schainker

    My once infinite respect for Bill Moyers has gone right out the window. By far the worst researched and one sided interview he has ever held. Have long since stopped watching the watered down News Hour, Bill is now off my list as well. Will not be giving any more money to PBS.

    I am greatful that you are bringing this issue to light of day and Judge Goldstone has gone out on a limb to do investigation of war crime around the world and presenting both sides for a change. We rarely hear this extreme shocking information on TV media.

    However, I was surprised at how much you felt the need to keep repeating the tired old line of "doesn't Israel have a right to defend itself" Yes, of course but now facts are the facts and what excuse do they have for the crimes against humanity for which we are inadvertantly supporting given ...what is it $15 billion/month? Palestine FB friends are suffering greatly and the rest of the world knows what is going on. Remember Hamas has been only group to reach out to help so what do you expect? How long do you think US citizen put up with this. Seems both sides do need to take responsibility for events but it is time for Israel to take responsibility for their over-reaction and making life unbearable for the Palestines. The Koran teaches that when their society is under seige or attack, they also have a right to defend themselves and they will not stop even if kids with rocks as that's all they have. We need balanced reporting so thank you. It's times to walk in the shoes of the other to truly understand and respect the other given noplace else to go, get back to basics and learn to live among one another as they did years gefore rhiw happeed,,

    Billy, the only way you could've been more pro-Israeli during the interview would've been to fly the 'Star of David.'

    During the interview with the decent Judge Goldstone, you kept bobbing and weaving, always trying to deflect the interview away from the massive amount of Israeli war crimes.

    Why not mention the FACT that it was Israel that broke the cease-fire that led to 'Operation Cast Lead?'

    Or that under international law, a nation that is under siege via a blockade of their land and sea ports has a right to fight back.

    Billy, your shameless shilling for Israel made you come across like a tired old fool.

    If you like Apartheid Israel so much, why not take the next El Al flight to Tel Aviv and STAY there.

    Alan, Nope, Zionism is the disease of the mind, AND the REAL TERRORISM, FROM ITS VERY CONCEPTION, read the biographies of monsters like Ben Gurion to realize how evil Zionism really is...So you think the extrajudiciary killings of Palestinians, especially potential leaders, using UAVs is justified, and therefore NOT terrorism? Wake up and sniff the air yourself. Tell me of ANY story, real or otherwise where the bully won in the end?

    Not only did the judge not mention that Gaza is occupied territory, but also that it has a right to self defense. The siege against Gaza is in itself a war crime of humongous proportions, and it is in response to that, that the Palestinians responded with their puny rockets. Even Jimmy Carter was able to tell us who broke the cease-fire (Israel) and why the Palestinians' were continuing their rocket fire - a puny response to grossly disproportionate bullying by Israel. But it is like any story of bullying where the victim has some self respect - he goes down in the barrage, but spunkily gets up as soon as he can, to show he is not out, and gives what little force he has to his attempt to stop the bully.

    However he did mention that the Palestinians are being punished because they accepted Hamas as their elected representatives - Hamas, who cannot be bribed and bullied like Arafat's crooks could, and who would be a tough negotiator.

    And this response from a government who has had terrorists like Menachem Begin, Sharon, and others, from its very inception! Chutzpah indeed, but it is after all a yiddish word, I guess that is what is to be expected.

    Moyers knows that going against Israel is a form of career suicide second in speed only to placing a loaded pistol to one's temple and pulling the trigger. He wants to continue having a cushy job on TV and wants to wake up tomorrow with his investments still intact, so he will obviously take the Israeli side in this or any debate. After all, there aren't any Arabs or Palestinians that own or control American media conglomerates and there aren't any Arabs or Palestinians in the top spots at PBS. Nor are there any Arabs or Palestinians at the top spots of Wall Street investment firms where his retirement money sits.

    Sderot was settled by Jews in 1951. According to Walid Khalidi in All That Remains, it along with the settlement of Or ha-Ner, founded in 1957, were established on the village lands of Najd, which means "elevated plain" in Arabic.
    Palestinian Arabs own 12,669 dunums in Najd although Israel refuses to honor their rights to their personal property, and refuses them their inalienable right to return home. In 1945 Jews owned 495 dunums of land in Najd and public lands consisted of 412 dunums.
    Najd's Palestinian villagers, approximately 620 in 1945, were expelled on 13 May 1948, before Israel was declared a state and before any Arab armies entered Palestine. According to UN Resolution 194 and also the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13, Section 2, the villagers of Najd have a right to return home to their personal property and to their native village.


    War Crimes?

    Firing rockets onto your own land?

    Killing one sixth of one percent of those killed in Israel's car accidents?

    C'mon Bill. You know this stuff. Why not mention it?

    Blameworthiness only exists when a person has the capacity to do otherwise. When one acts from necessity, there can be no blame. Israelis have created a desperate situation filled with desperate people. The Palestinians act from necessity, out of desperation, for their own survival. Israel, however, has an option to do otherwise. Yet, its people choose to shoot pregnant women in the belly from the safety of tank turrets, ridicule children at illegal checkpoints, and bomb hospitals from American bought and paid for F-16s. Only a Zionist would have a problem with (the elected government) Hamas as a neighbor, because only a Zionist has spent the last 4 generations making the Palestinians who elected Hamas poor, homeless, desperate people. Zionists and their sympathizers can cry about a report while another "Hamas" rocket lands harmlessly in a parking lot. My conscience sides with the Palestinian whose family was buried alive under Catepillar treads. Goldstone is a brave man. Telling the truth takes courage. Maybe Moyers just gave him a platform to defend his findings. I want to think so, after so many years respecting Moyers for the same sort of courage. It is unusual for an old man to lose it once he has had it for so long. It is more likely that he has grown wise enough to appear otherwise in order to push the issue. Anyways, I want to think so...

    Bill Moyers,
    Do you really support the malicious activity of the Israelis?...
    The Palestinians deserve a homeland just like the Israelis. They are struggling to overcome the stanglehold the Israelis have on their lives.
    The Israelis have been jaded by their treatment by the Nazis. Besides that, there has been animosity between the Jews and the Arabs for thousands of years. The whole thing is a no win situation. The only solution is two independent states that work together to provide a working relationship.
    Goldstone is an amazing person that is able to ignore cultural animosity and make an honest assessment of the situation. Our support of Israel is creating a disastrous unbalance in the Middle East that can only turn out badly. We must support both the Israelis and the Palestinians if we are to do what is right instead of what is crazy for everyone concerned.
    Personally, I think we should make this the promised land and give the Israelis Texas. Texas wants to succeed from the union any way. It would solve two problems with one solution.
    Malicious behavior is not acceptable by any nation for any reason. War is a crime against humanity period no excuses.
    The only way to fight terrorism is to eliminate those who use terrorism as a weapon. We need to abide by civilized means of solving problems.
    "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword" is as true today as it was two thousand years ago.

    No, I don't think Moyers was playing devil's advocate in his defense of Israel. Israel's attack wasn't retaliation Moyers and so many repetitions don't make it true. Gaza is under occupation not Israel. There are thousands of Israeli troops in the occupied territories, and constant overflights, shooting, shelling and confiscation of land by Israel aimed at Palestinian civilians. To use terror, mass murder and guns to expel or exile over a million people from their homes, then claim "they live in a hostile neighborhood." is an affront to our sensibilities. They're thieves stealing from and murdering (literally) their neighbors then complaining their neighbors don't like them. Goldstone, a good and pretty fair man despite being a zionist, neglects the other motive for the Israeli onslaught, to terrorize the Palestinians into accepting Israeli rule over their land.

    How can a people who understand the pain of being displaced and humiliated only too well, chose to displace another people to make their home? How can they behave in this way towards others? It reflects a sad fact about human nature; that the abused will often grow up to be abusers.

    @Alan, I have sympathy for the displaced Jews in the aftermath of World War II, as I have for any wrongfully displaced people. But to be honest, simply being displaced and desperate cannot be a justification for everything. The Palestinian farmer may well ask why he has to pay the price of Hitler's actions.
    You stated, "Jews were displaced, they needed a home, they fought for the only survival they could have." And in the same breath you are saying,"Who would want Hamas as their neighbor?" Didn't you chose your neighbors? Attacks on civilians are never justified, but didn't your actions create Palestinians who are now just as displaced and desperate? How can you see things so black and white?

    Good good, Judge Goldstone. This is so hopeful what you are doing. Peace will only come to the Israeli/Palestinian land and cultural struggle when Israel is made accountable for the horrors it committed against Palestine. The use of white phosphorus, cluster bombs (which keep on killing), superior military destruction machines and bombs, and on.

    I'm sad that Bill Moyers shows such pro-Israel bias. Why doesn't he ask whether the Palestinians have a right to self-defense? Why not mention the 3000 people killed in Gaza by Israel in the years prior to the December/January onslaught? Why not mention that most of the people in Gaza are refugees from similar acts by Israel, mass murders of people simply because they lived in land Israel's zionist founders covetted? Goldstone is an honest and other than being a zionist a good man, as a zionist he deserves his nightmares. Bill Moyers doesn't even mention that Israel provoked the conflict.

    Wow Mr. Moyers, do you work for Israel?

    Mr. Goldstone, kudos to you sir.

    Goldstone is too imbued with his own importance to hear himself.

    "I could not back out from my commitment to do the report, once I had been allowed to rewrite the text to my liking, could I."

    Why not? Backing out was the only reasonable thing to do once Israel had refused to cooperate.

    For if only one side in a conflict is willing to cooperate in an investigation, the role of victim and the role of perpetrator have been determined ahead of time.

    Johan

    Goldstone is too imbued with his own importance to hear himself.

    "I could not back out from my commitment to do the report, once I had been allowed to rewrite the text to my liking, could I."

    Why not? Backing out was the only reasonable thing to do once Israel had refused to cooperate.

    For if only one side in a conflict is willing to cooperate in an investigation, the role of victim and the role of perpetrator have been determined ahead of time.

    Johan

    Let's remember one thing. Israel is faced with an enemy of progress, democracy, and humanism against their own people. I am not defending any violation of international war laws, but let's be real. Who would want Hamas as their neighbor? It's easy to condemn Israel when you don't have to face this virile enemy yourselves. The problem is the same thing it's always been: accountability. Hamas are unaccountable, all Palestinian leaders so far have been unaccountable. Israel doesn't belong to Jews, just as much as the U.S. doesn't belong to us. It's history. Jews were displaced, they needed a home, they fought for the only survival they could have. That's reality. You want to talk humanism, what about survival? Reality is a hard pill to swallow. Nobody could have a treaty with Hamas, and Israel has become desperate for its survival, so it's performed inhumanely. Condemn them? Sure, but what about the glaring problem that will not end. What do you do about these unreasonable, extremist leaders and their sheep followers unwilling to adapt to the modern world? Am I being ethnocentric by criticizing them? Are you being naive and self-destructive by accepting their intolerance and racism against Israelis and Americans as a culture? Both are true, and though believing in the former is not noble and should be contained and given some consideration to ensure a peaceful future, the latter should be acknowledged just for the plain need for our survival... both American and Israeli-- because the terrorist problem is real, and unreasonable folk will kill you whether you think reasonably or not. The Palestinians need real leadership and until that happens, conflict will ensue and they will hurt their people in the process of "defending" themselves. It's wrong for Israel to be killing innocents, but let's keep the barbarism of the Palestinian leadership in perspective. Would you like these people in your state? Israel is now the home state of Jews, so shut up about them not belonging there... they won't accept a concession. Stop asking for it! Take a whiff of reality, it's the air we all breathe after all. Idealism is a disease of the mind.

    I am so relieved to hear Mr. Goldstone. He is the first voice I have heard regarding the ongoing conflicts around the world that gives measured judgement. He has given me a renewed faith in humanity. There are so few voices that ground themselves in facts and principle. If there is any way to convey the extent of my admiration for his efforts to Mr Goldstone, please do so.

    Let's remember one thing. Israel is faced with an enemy of progress, democracy, and humanism against their own people. I am not defending any violation of international war laws, but let's be real. Who would want Hamas as their neighbor? It's easy to condemn Israel when you don't have to face this virile enemy yourselves. The problem is the same thing it's always been: accountability. Hamas are unaccountable, all Palestinian leaders so far have been unaccountable. Israel doesn't belong to Jews, just as much as the U.S. doesn't belong to us. It's history. Jews were displaced, they needed a home, they fought for the only survival they could have. That's reality. You want to talk humanism, what about survival? Reality is a hard pill to swallow. Nobody could have a treaty with Hamas, and Israel has become desperate for its survival, so it's performed inhumanely. Condemn them? Sure, but what about the glaring problem that will not end. What do you do about these unreasonable, extremist leaders and their sheep followers unwilling to adapt to the modern world? Am I being ethnocentric by criticizing them? Are you being naive and self-destructive by accepting their intolerance and racism against Israelis and Americans as a culture? Both are true, and though believing in the former is not noble and should be contained and given some consideration to ensure a peaceful future, the latter should be acknowledged just for the plain need for our survival... both American and Israeli-- because the terrorist problem is real, and unreasonable folk will kill you whether you think reasonably or not. The Palestinians need real leadership and until that happens, conflict will ensue and they will hurt their people in the process of "defending" themselves. It's wrong for Israel to be killing innocents, but let's keep the barbarism of the Palestinian leadership in perspective. Would you like these people in your state? Israel is now the home state of Jews, so shut up about them not belonging there... they won't accept a concession. Stop asking for it! Take a whiff of reality, it's the air we all breathe after all. Idealism is a disease of the mind.

    God Bless Justice Richard Goldstone for taking on a most difficult task.

    To see a more true and accurate side of this story than what's always reported by the main-stream media in this country that's controlled by a relative handful of powerful people with their own agendas, is a breath of fresh air.

    Keep up the GOOD work Justice Goldstone!


    I was surprised Bill brought up WW2 as examples of attacks on civilians when we have the Gulf War, Belgrade and Iraq as most recent crimes against humanity where bunker busteing bombs tipped with depleted uranium, napalm look-alikes, sonic bombs and cluster bombs were used on innocent civilians, including the Red Cross, the Chinese embassy and journalists in the Palestine Hotel.

    The American media and political establishments are pathetic. They can't stand-up to the little Likudnik-runt bullies because defending the rights of "goyem" would be anti-semitic. What about Israeli aggression against the semitic Arab population?

    Human rights are either for everyone or no one.

    The destruction of the Gaza Zoo and slaughtering of it's caged animals for sport by the Israeli army had what military objective?

    Bill Moyers went too far in taking the Israeli's position.
    Sadly, I didn't hear anything about the truce, that Israel broke in early November. Nor the brutal seige Gazans have been under since 2005. What about the D.I.M.E. munitions or White Phosphorous.
    Maybe Moyers missed the cruel t-shirts that showed a target on a pregnant Palestinian woman that the IDF wears. At one time Israel used sonic waves from hovering aircraft to cause miscarriage of pregnant women's babies.

    Israel needs to be stopped and America must stop funding this rogue nation.
    No one will ever get a clear picture of this situation until US media stops giving the usual half truths and lies.
    I was shocked that Moyers was willing to continue the propaganda.

    October 23, 2009

    Wow, Bill, tough crowd tonight!

    Never have I seen so many people who say:

    1. I’ve been following you and agreeing with you literally for years, Bill Moyers, but tonight you were so biased toward Israel, that that’s it. I no longer respect you, etc. You lost your objectivity and good judgment overnight and are now beyond the (my) pale!

    2. Moyers or Goldstone are so wrong to question or criticize the UN Human Rights Council, etc.

    Folks, you saw a different program than I did tonight.

    I saw a program where both Israel and Palestine were validly criticized and called on to account for their violations of International Conventions and Laws of war, especially the targeting of civilians and punishing a whole population for the acts of some leaders. The Judge/Investigator was as fair and balanced as one could be, even though he is both a Jew and a Zionist. More of his “hard words” were directed toward Israel, for it was obvious from a number of particulars mentioned, that they, with their greater might, technology, and intelligence apparatus, were guilty of much disregard for civilians’ life and property and intentional and punitive destruction of productive farm fields, infrastructure, etc.

    A number of persons mistook, I believe, Moyer’s BEING A SKILLED INTERVIEWER (playing “Devil’s Advocate,” asking questions that would normally be raised by very pro-Israel persons) SO GOLDSTONE WOULD MAKE HIS VALID CRITICISMS AND TELL WHY THEY WERE IMPORTANT AND JUSTIFIED.

    Those who keep up with the UN know that there has been a period of years in which the UN Human Rights Council or Committee was made up of and dominated by primarily tyrannical dictatorships, totalitarian governments, anti-Israel Arab governments, etc. which have little regard for human and civil rights—but they all rather uniformly criticized Israel on a regular basis, often unjustly. (The U. S. asked for and got a seat at the table this last year; it remains to be seen what changes can be made.)

    That is why both Moyers and Judge Goldstone were both pleased, and a little surprised. that Goldstone’s Report and call to both groups to investigate those persons and actions that represent violations of international Treaties and Law met with the agreement and approval/backing of the UN group!

    Bill, you have been one of the bright stars in my firmament, perhaps my favorite public spokeman, investigative journalist, and man of integrity who stands for truth, justice, fair play, good government, human and humane values –starting around 1958 when you were Press Secretary to LBJ. My regard and respect for you just continues to grow and it will not go away, overnight or ever!. I’m so glad you co-started Now and came back on PBS with Moyers' Journal. We need you. I thank you, and I thank God for you.

    Sincerely,

    J. Roland Cole

    I am very disappointed to witness Moyers expose his shameless toolness for Israel.

    Judge Goldstone is a hero.

    i can't believe our (US) state dept is calling his report flawed. unreal, must be a Bush holdover, oh wait, its Hillary. great. i'm, as usual, proud to be an american. come on Obama, straighten those fools out.

    i was disappointed that Bill Moyers did not press Goldstone more about Bush's invasion of Iraq with his make believe WOfMD. I thought i picked up from his comments tho, that he wouldn't think Bush was guilty of war crimes. I do. I would love to see GW hang just like Saddam. haha. And what about that present Gov. of Texas? Boy, there is one state we should have left OUT of the union. Jeez, do they give people a labodomy when they are BORN in texas, or just when they take up residency. I'm all for settin new records for executions, but replacing the people investigating the possibility of killing an innocent man? how very texass of him. sorry, but after LBJ, Bush Sr and then GW, if this country ever elects another prez from TX i will commit hari kari.

    Mr. Moyers,
    As always, a very informative and extraordinarily well done show. Judge Goldstone should be the next recipient of the NOBEL PEACE AWARD. Such honesty and integrity is without precedence.

    Thanks for having the Judge on your show!

    Mr. Moyers:

    I just adore and love you and your show!!!! I watch it every week!!! As always your questions go straight to the heart of the matter, are perceptive and holistic.

    Tonight however, your questions did show some partiality for the Israeli cause; I agree with the commentators below. Is it true that the PBS directors are zionists, that Mcdonalds asks that PBS not side with the Palestinians??? (This is from George's comments below) Please comment on this, for your viewers need to know!!!!

    In regards to the situation b/w the isrealis and the palestinians, there is no such thing as one state, territory or group who is more right or more wrong than the other--a report that does not pronounce both sides as "equally guilty" is flawed; they have both erred greatly and equally over history and time! Until they can both take public responsibility for their respective fears, hopes, anguish and sadness for their actions and their enemies' or until a major power militarily in some large fashion interferes, war will continue ad infinitum!!! This is a situation in which there is a current agressor responding to a historical persecutor. This is not S. African apartheid, Bosnian ethnic cleansing or a Rwandan genocide where the right and wrong sides are clear to most. Here our situation is both historical, dating back thousands of years and modern, with power houses (US and Britain) thinking they can instill and support within an existing land a diametrically opposed people. What craziness we have helped to bring to that region and for it we are in big part to blame!

    How can one be fair to a bigot? One cannot, without foregoing the truth. And the truth is that Zionists are parasites, surviving only at the expense of their hosts. Everyone knows it. And the truth is that to say so is not anti-semitism. Zionists are not semites. The truth is that these people were given half of another's home, and have made the rest a concentration camp. To see the truth in this is not to be against the "Jews," it is to be morally disgusted. And, the sad truth is that the same thing is happening around the world, wherever these people have taken root. The truth is that many of the highest offices in the U.S. are occupied by Zionists, and have been since granddaddy Bush tried to accelerate the slide into fascism. And, the truth is, that the U.S. is turning into a concentration camp. No wonder any country of thinking persons do not welcome them. Who wants to have their homes turned into a concentration camp by a bunch of parasites?

    Having heard the Goldstone interview, I thought Moyers was probing, wanting to make sure he had all bases covered, but not contentious. I think he gave Goldstone time and leeway to fully explain himself.

    Nice Christian values you got there, Bill.

    Apparently they only apply to your buddies, the Israelis.

    Shame on you!

    Another reason I'm not religious. The hypocrisy would kill me.

    brilliant!

    Goldstone for president! Smart, principled, courageous, willing to amit mistakes (if the critics above would kindly point them out....)

    Too bad he wasn't born in the US.

    Michael Pyshnov - what you said made me think. I have long said Zionism is a cult but what you said about Israel being a suicidal cult rang a bell. Seems most cults have this sort of innate self-destructiveness. It actually plays into their own cult in a positive feedback loop. It validates their typical doomsday facet to their belief. Israel does seem to be begging the world to destroy them. No one is more deserving.

    Israel has not held up their end of the bargain (have they ever???) and had a blockade on Gaza but even then there was an effective cease-fire. Israel broke that cease fire when they invaded Gaza and kidnapped Gazan politicians! Then they whined about rockets - most of which seemed to be suspiciously impotent and likely false-flag instruments (Israel's favorite tactic - they have been caught red-handed attacking themselves or Americans to try to blame on their enemies.) Israel is in violation of international law and the very entity that created them - the UN. They need to go back to their 1948 borders - PERIOD. And they need to repay every dime we have ever given them - our aid to them is illegal by our own laws according to the Symington Amendment and the NNPT. Oh, and remember the USS Liberty!

    I can understand why many Americans support that apartheid entity in the middle east. Both the USA and the latter were conceived on stolen land with the midwifery of genocide and the blessing of a mythical bloodthirsty god.

    With such a similar genesis, normal human values have no resonance for them. What is war criminality for the rest of the world is self-defence for them.

    But what mythical gods create, they also inexorably destroy.

    Please read and listen...

    iamthewitness.com

    It's dismaying to hear a respected jurist like Goldstone, who should know better, insist that Israel has a "right" to "defend itself" or "right to exist".

    Since when does any other state have a "right" to anything?

    States have powers.

    Rights belong to individuals.

    Robert Walker, I imagine the reason why the IDF had to kill thousands of chickens belonging to the people of Gaza was, because these chickens must have been firing rockets into Israeli settlements.

    I always knew that Israel is nothing but a cult, and a suicidal cult at this. All its logic rests on a typically cultist argumentation. Israel understands that United Nations decision to give Israel Arab land is not really a valid judgement because UN had simply no jurisdiction over the ownership of the land. So, Israel adds another basis for the ownership - God's promise; which again is totally meaningless for everyone not willing to obey the God of Jews.

    Now, let me say this. Practically every crime, violent or not, has an underlying goal of robbery. And I am very uncomfortable with the idea that what is called "terrorism" which has a goal of returning the stolen land to the legal owners is considered a crime. For God's sake, Hitler called the resistance fighters terrorists.

    Bill Moyers, thank you for your forum.

    I find your defense of Israel a matter of value relativism. I can't believe my ears, Bill. At first I thought you were being the devil's adocate. But you persisted!

    With the "closing of the American mind", your logic could defend and support the rational of Nazi Germany.

    There are absolutes. Human rights are human. Fortunately, you hold no public office.

    Lisa Nathan -- Question regarding your silly childish nonsense rant--
    What's Jordan got to do with the Gaza killings and the topic at hand?
    I like to remind you that the UN has no rights to declare a new establishment of a country for sole religious groups.
    Back in 1948 UN (not ratified) resolution give the Jews a portion of Palestine--please let us know what precentage then and what it is now. I assure you it is not less but is today alot more.
    Is your past time hobby stealing?
    Lisa,are pirate movies your favourite to watch?

    Hey, can you spot the shills?

    "Both Israel and armed Palestinian groups committed war crimes." Can someone please let us know,what war crime actions did the Palestinians do?
    Compare that to a rapist,were the female claws the goon to get off.
    Bill Moyers knows that the headhunchos at PBS are Jewish zionists. Since McDonald's Will fortune give million$ and on condition PBS never sides with the Palistinians,Bill Moyers does his job well. PBS is now a zionist tool. Did you hear that Israel is trying to buy out Al Jazeria?
    {:^/

    The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the
    Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.

    Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

    The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

    Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

    The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem
    synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

    The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

    The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

    Has anyone noticed that millions of Jews were kicked out of most Arab countries? Why don't those countries take in the Arabs that fled from Israel? Why was Judea and Samaria renamed the West Bank? Arabia for the Arabs, how about Judea for the Jews? Why do the antisemites act as though Israel were at least the size of Texas? Why can Arabs live anywhere they want, including Israel, but Jews and Christians are not welcomed in Arab countries?

    Has anyone noticed that millions of Jews were kicked out of most Arab countries? Why don't those countries take in the Arabs that fled from Israel? Why was Judea and Samaria renamed the West Bank? Arabia for the Arabs, how about Judea for the Jews? Why do the antisemites act as though Israel were at least the size of Texas? Why can Arabs live anywhere they want, including Israel, but Jews and Christians are not welcomed in Arab countries?

    Israel acted not to "punish innocent civilians" or to make "reprisals", but to end the rocket attacks and to release the kidnapped soldier. The purpose of Hiroshima was not to avenge Dec 7 but to end the war and save lives. The Israeli actions were not excessive because the attacks are not stopped and the kidnapped soldier not released. The Palestinian civilans were not entirely "innocent" becasue they elected the Hamas government and did not protest the rocket attacks. Palestinian and UN anger should be directed against Hamas and not Israel. The flaw in Goldsones Report is that he does not recognize the motive. This motive explains the attacks on the infrastructure and other Goldstone allegations.

    Deuteronomy 20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be enslaved by you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, kill all the men. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, these are your possessions to dispose of as you wish. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, exterminate all that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.

    Add Palestinians: Nuff said.

    Martha - the nation of Israel has the same right to exist as does the nations of the Kurds, Waziri's, Navaho, Tiawanese, etc. In 1948, Israel may have declared itself a country, but it was the IDF that made it so. We declared ourselves a country here in 1776, but it wasn't until 13 years later the Continental Army and the French Navy made it so.

    How elevated Justice Goldstone
    to think oneself to be in alignment
    with those willing to sacrifice their lives.

    How equanimous Justice Goldstone
    to claim yourself to be a Zionist
    Perhaps Ahmenijad should also claim himself to be alike

    How impervious Justice Goldstone
    to the stings of antisemitism
    a world citizen with prestigious connections
    you give ignorance a green light

    Israel's right to exist is a transparent canard. I wish people would stop repeating it.

    Israel is built on occupied land by forceful immigrants. Israel is here to stay and is a better place than the rest of the ME no doubt.

    But Israel has no RIGHT. Israel can earn the privilege of existing by making peace with the natives, giving them back enough land so THEY can exist, and compensate for the losses they suffered. Period.

    Unless of course you believe in the bible (as Moyers clearly seems to do) and that the world was created in 7 days, Darwin be damned.

    I was very dissapointed in Moyers and his comments, acting as if this information on Israel's brutality was so incredulous to him.

    Obama,also,and clinton, B frank an countless other " liberals" etc, all turn a blind eye to the arrogance of israel which kills thousands and is able to do so only with american support.

    Killing under the cloak of war is murder. Albert Einstein

    This is the kind of courageous journalism that we have learned to expect from Bill Moyers' Journal. The Goldstone Report is balanced and comprehensive. I am aghast that the U.S. State Department has issued no specifics in its criticism of the Report and the fact that the U.S. voted against it at the U.N. Not what I expected from the Obama Administration when I was working as a attorney in voter protection for the Obama
    Campaign on election day for 26 hours in that cold cornfield in the Scranton, Pa. area

    Ken, in a typical week Israel does three to 100 times the amount of terrorism against Palestinians than Palestinians do to Israelis, and this has gone on for decades. You don't believe me? Read Ilan Pappe's The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine and my book, Israeli Terrorism. Both are carefully researched. Come to your own conclusions.

    A remarkable interview with Justice Goldstone today. At the end, in the discussion of the ongoing Israeli military investigation and the opposition to a larger investigation, there was a fairly major point that didn't get raised; the elephant in the room, as it were.

    The reason the Israeli political leadership opposes any larger investigation is that said leadership itself decided to inflict the collective punishment upon the Palestinians and target the economic infrastructure. The PM and the MOD may have not personally approved the bombing of the waterworks, sewer plant, the one and only flour mill, and each and every one of the some 200 other factories, but they undoubtedly approved the policy of targeting the economic infrastructure. Plowing under fields at random? The PM's address at the UN is a fairly clear inkling of what their attitude will be: ignore it and it will eventually go away. Investigate themselves for war crimes? A bit surprised that Bill Moyers never hit up on an elephant this large.

    So it will be interesting to see how it all plays out over the next few weeks. Obama & Co aren't real happy with the PM et al over their ongoing colonization of the West Bank, but no indication yet of anybody in the administration with huevos enough for more than platitudes. No one in Goldstone's league, anyhow. At least as interesting will be the Hamas response. The Palestinians are long famous for never losing a chance to blow it, and this really is a cusp moment. It is within their hands to change the course of the Middle East, though I would be truly surprised to see it, cynic that I am. We shall see.

    This is the kind of courageous journalism that we have learned to expect from Bill Moyers' Journal. The Goldstone Report is balanced and comprehensive. I am aghast that the U.S. State Department has issued no specifics in its criticism of the Report and the fact that the U.S. voted against it at the U.N. Not what I expected from the Obama Administration when I was working as a attorney in voter protection for the Obama
    Campaign on election day for 26 hours in that cold cornfield in the Scranton, Pa. area

    Reena, Ariel Sharon did not leave the Gaza Strip in 2005 for peace. At the very moment Israeli settlers were leaving Gaza, tenders for new Israeli homes were being issued in Ma'ale Adumim, land grabbed from the Palestinians that had been allocated to them. By January 1, 2006, many more tenders had been issued. Building homes in another person's land is a bid for peace? No. Israel does not want peace. It wants land, and provoking Palestinians to fight back gives it an excuse for grabbing more land.

    The Israelis have faced terrorism and military threats over and over again. They have been subjected for decades to a relentless barrage of harsh, biased, unfair criticism from all around the world.

    As a result, it's very difficult for the Israelis to take Justice Goldstone's report seriously, even if some of the charges may have merit.

    This does not relieve them of accountability for any war crimes they may have committed. But neither does it relieve the international community of its responsibility for treating Israel so unfairly for so long.

    Isolating and demonizing Israel is not the way to achieve peace or a better life for the Palestinians. Israel responds very well to being treated with respect.

    Not the slightest shadow of a doubt Israel committed war crimes in Gaza. It has broken international law almost hour by hour throughout the last ten years, the years I have been watching the occupation through a microscope daily. The Goldstone report is right on, it bends over backward to be fair. It is overly cautious, but it is accurate. He made no blanket generalizations. I had acquaintances in Gaza while the blitz was going on, and some of them have reported their experiences in my book, Israeli Terrorism. Their judgments were far more harsh than those of Justice Goldstone.

    As for the people complaining about Gazan rockets peppering south Israel, in 2008 they killed three people. In return for that Israelis killed over 900 Gaza civilians. That is a ratio of 300 to 1. I'd call that overkill. This was meant to be revenge against civilians for voting for Hamas, not trying to stop rockets. If Israel had any true interest in peace with Palestinians it would stop demolishing their homes and grabbing their land. This has gone on incessantly since the occupation started.

    Gee Bill - could you make your pro-Israeli bias any more obvious? How bizarre! This is what happens when Christians take the Bible literally. Sorry; if Israel commits war crimes and crimes against humanity, it can't be excused by religious nuttiness. It's one standard for all nations and all armies. The Palestinians are human beings. A true Christian would know that! Have you noticed that Israel never takes responsibility for anything? The excuse always comes down to Israel being exempt from participation in world values.

    Thank you Mr. Moyers for presenting this issue to the American people in a calm and rational way. I had written a post in my blog just yesterday based on a similar interview that Al Jazeera conducted with Justice Goldstone. You may read it here.

    Goldstone to critics - "Read the report!"

    Here is what I discovered to be the concern of Israel. The ICC in its description of itself says:

    "The ICC is a court of last resort. It will not act if a case is investigated or prosecuted by a national judicial system unless the national proceedings are not genuine"

    So really Justice Goldstone is offering Israel an ultimatum. Investigate yourself, or you will be tried for war crimes by the ICC. There must be real punishment handed out for these crimes. Justice demands it.

    For many years I have enjoyed Bill Moyers Journal. Tonight's episode was no exception and although Mr. Moyers would appear to be questioning Goldstone from a pro Jewish and Israëli bias, which I assume was his attempt at being the voice of what he perceives to be the concerns of most Americans, some of the ideas brought forth beg explanation. When one says that Israël has the right to defend itself, I'm not sure how this applies in a case where they are occupying another nation's, the Palestinian's, territory. We all celebrate the second world war successes of "la résistance française" against the Nazi German occupants. If we were to apply the same rules that are being suggested today for Israël to Germany in the 1940s, couldn't Germany have argued that they had a right to protect themselves, hence their suppression of French resistance? The news clip of the Israëli prime-minister's addresse to the UN where he suggests that given Israël is a democracy, its attempts to protect itself are justified would suggest that Hamas was not democratically elected in the Gaza area? But we all know they were so how is it, then, that the Gazans haven't the right to protect themselves? A lot of the world's political hot spots today (Lebanon, Irak, Afghanistan, Iran etc.) stem from the creation of the state of Israël. It would be naïve to think that the establishment of Israël can be reversed and I doubt if most would think it a good idea. There was no reason from the outset why the people of Palestine and Jewish immigrants couldn't have lived in harmony. With the collusion of a lot of western powers, Israël was created and its borders defined. Since then, what has happened is not unlike a 19th century American response to people hostile to their occupation: round them up and put them on a reserve. What are the remaining Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza if not glorified reservations? The narrow scope of Goldstone's investigation will eventually, one hopes, open a larger investigation of the legitimacy of Israël to be occupying Palestinian territories and that these alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity are a direct result of its choice to do so.

    Hey Reena, if Israel wants peace, why do they continue to destroy olive groves, plow under Palestinian homes, and allow pregnant women to die in child birth at check points? If Israel wants peace, then why do they continue to build settlements on Palestinian land? Take a look at the map, Reena. Palestine is shrinking while Israel continues to grow. Tell me again how this is Israel's way of trying to make peace?

    The limits of self-defense.
    Does the policeman have the right to shoot at a gunman in a crowded market? Soldiers invading a don-hostile country and come under fire, do they have the right to return fire into a crowded market or should they need die as pawns, the sacrifice of virtue?

    Israel left Gaza in 2005 for peace, but has received nothing but rocket attacks on civilians since then.  Israel left a working greenhouse for Gaza as a symbol of peace, but Hamas destroyed it. Hamas used mosques,schools, factories, etc, as arsenals, and used civilians, including children as human shields, for propaganda purposes so that Israel would be "damned if it did and damned if it didn't (bomb them). Why did the Hamas gov't never build bomb shelters for its people, though Hamas leaders do have bomb shelters? It is because they do not care if their people are bombed and killed. That makes great propaganda against Israel, in the eyes of Hamas. If they want peace, all they have to do is say to Israel, "We don't want to destroy you. Let's make peace." It is very easy. The bottom line is that Israel wants peace, but Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Destruction of Israel is still in its charter. Israel tried its best to minimize civilian casualties and warn civilians in advance of attacks. The Goldstone report is a travesty.

    I don't believe there is such a thing as international law. Natural law, perhaps. But certainly any law is moot without the power of opinion or of police to enforce it. In the absence of world govt, I think international courts are merely an attempt to form public opinion, and on that basis I wish them well, but think them presumptuous otherwise. Furthermore I agree with the idea that such law reduces military action to policing, which is to the great advantage of the criminals, as we see in every country. But as much as the police have protested, it has largely been agreed that furthering the rule of law is more important, and it is thought that rationality does this better than reprisal. Where the Israelis can be faulted is precisely because they do not see this, and I think their attitude certainly has Biblical roots. I see nothing wrong with this, nevertheless, as long as it is clearly seen that the parties will have no cause for complaint if that is the course they choose. However, it is fairly easy to analyze this situation on terms very familiar and come to some conclusions. While we sometimes condone even murder if it can be seen to be a matter of passion, or temporary insanity, we do not see it the same way if it can be shown to be premeditated or intentional. And while we may condone self-defense, we do not very often see stringing electric wires or laying mines being an appropriate response for burglary, for instance, or physical assault appropriate for name-calling. Blood feuds and duels are no longer recognized as civilized in most countries, just as cock- and dog-fighting have been banished. By these conventions, the Israelis clearly stand accused of the intentional use of disproportionate force.

    Robert Walker has no knowledge of what is really happening in Palestine. He must get his news from pro-Israeli newspapers like the NY Times, and from TV news outlets like ABC, CBS, CNN (especially zionist Wolf Blitzer).

    Robert Walker, what you believe to know about Palestine couldn't fit into a shot glass. Palestinians are defending themselves from Israel. Those rockets they fire in comparison to Israel's weaponry is akin to throwing stones at men carrying machine guns.

    I just don't think cliches such as, "the only winning move is not to play" are helpful at this point. It's also a bit high minded. What the people of Gaza need is their FREEDOM. I believe that the nation of Israel has a right to exist, but the way the Palestinians in Gaza are being forced to exist is criminal.

    Moyers proves again he is the best reporter in American television.

    Imagine a Fox or even Meet the Press moderator capable of the preparation and sharp questioning by Moyers.

    Poor Israel. It is run by inepts whom guys like Moyers and Goldstone skewer.

    Obama promised to break Israel's chokehold on US policy. He's got to work harder on that--Israel today is not what we fought to create 62 years ago.

    fbenjul
    Madison,WI.

    Israel continues to be a taboo issue here in the US. To be honest, I was not expecting to watch a fair discussion on the issue of the atrocities that Israel has been committing against the Palestinians - atrocities that continue. However, I was not expecting to presence such a sad display by Bill Moyers, who I respected until today's program. Not only his deliberated biased questions, but his tone, his body language, his servile manners while trying to erode the report, were hard to watch. Not to mention Goldstone's outrageous statements attacking the UN human rights council. Nothing has been said about the fact that Israel has been allowed to conduct its annihilation of the Palestinian people with the protection and the approval of the US.

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/anyquestions.php

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/GazaHolo/index.html

    An apartheid wall, homes being plowed, checkpoints every 5 feet, olive groves destroyed, women and children dying at child birth at check points, water supply cut off, settlements infringing on Palestinian land. Who is trying to wipe whom off the map?

    Goldstone calls the UN resolutions unfair and unbalanced. Look at what the Israelis are doing. Of course it's biased, why wouldn't it be, they're the ones who continue to violate international laws, and continue to thumb their nose at the UN. Goldstone doesn't go far enough, and still comes off as a zionist shill.

    Bill Moyers, I have been a religious follower of you for many years, and I have never had a reason to disagree with you on any of your presentations, however, the one tonight with Judge Goldstone has changed all that. In this report, you have been all one sided, to the favor of the Israel, and I condenm you for that. In all the research I have done with respect to this report, I find it absolutely accurate and I praise Judge Goldstone for his stance. As for you Bill, I am sorry

    My comments may have gone in before I typed in the two words but I am sure you can find it. My conclusion was the judges report was unfair to israel

    The Judge does not smell the coffee. Every rocket fired into israel that results in death is a war crime. The Judge knows that Hamas has no court system and he believes Israel should investigate thiers frist. This is unfair. It was an unfair report.

    Bill Moyers!!

    I lost all of the respect that I had gathered for you today.. Sad..

    Your bias towards Israel was so obvious that it amazed me. Accusing the UN of being biased against the Israelis is akin to accusing the UN of being biased against the Sudanese govt against the southern fighters and Darfur.

    I do have to thank you for inviting Mr. Goldstone on the show however, as this man embodies all that is decent about humanity. One of those ordinary great people..

    I just lost a ton of respect for Bill Moyers. His interview with Richard Goldstone showed him to be a pro-Israeli media shill, no different than the rest. Why should I be surprised? He kept talking about Israel's right to exist and defend itself, without ever saying the Palestinians have that same right. Later, he mourned the loss of Texas' Judge Justice. He praised Justice's championing of civil rights and segregation for blacks, illegal aliens, and inmates in the prison system. It's a stunning parallel to Israel, yet Moyers does not see this.

    I am waiting for someone to explain the difference between Gaza and Warsaw. The abused have become the abusers. Why wasn't the imprisonment of Gaza part of the discussion and why does it persist? Isn't that an abuse of human rights?

    I'm so disappointed....so disappointed with Bill Moyers, even he cannot conduct an interview, and honestly deal with the brutal crimes committed by the state of Israel against the people of Gaza.

    Judge Goldstone is one impressive guy. My one quibble about this otherwise extraordinary interview is that neither Moyers nor Goldstone highlighted the status of Gaza as an OCCUPIED territory. No comparison of violations by one "side" or the other has meaning outside this fundamental relationship.

    Bill, I'm watching your interview with Richard Goldstone about politics and modern war in general and the legal wrangling over the bloody wakes of several recent conflicts he has personal knowledge of, and I'm wondering why neither of you has seen the obvious....

    The only winning move is not to play

    Bill, I'm watching your interview with Richard Goldstone about politics and modern war in general and the legal wrangling over the bloody wakes of several recent conflicts he has personal knowledge of, and I'm wondering why neither of you has seen the obvious....

    The only winning move is not to play

    I normally respect Mr. Moyers, but it seems he's doing everything in his power to do what the American media has always done - present Israel as the consummate victim.

    He seems to try and justify everything Israel had done. It's one thing to challenge the Goldstone report, but he appears to question its veracity because as always, it comes as a shock to Americans that Israel is capable of war crimes.

    Palestinians have never really been treated as human beings by the American media.

    It's about time that PBS is talking about what Israel is doing to the people of Gaza, Thank You! CNN FOX and the others never cover the two sides equally thanks PBS now there is another network besides FSTV and LinkTV where I can count of some fairness. This unjust destruction and Apartheid of Gaza can only compare to Gaza as an ant and Israel to a giant shoe stepping on Gaza.

    Only one news organization, CNN, reported about the "largest military exercise", EVER, between Israel and the USA are about to begin. USA troops landing in force, indeed, HUGE force.

    Amazing how this "exercise" is being kept as "quiet" as it is by our propaganda machine.

    Yes, war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity were committed. Justice Goldstone's team's findings were in line with the findings by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and those by the UN Board of Inquiry. Both Israel and armed Palestinian groups committed war crimes.

    Yes, the conflict is assymetric in nature on many levels, but this shouldn't be taken into consideration when applying the law. The rules of war are not unreasonable. No party should target civilians or be reckless in their choice of targets.

    And no, the findings of Goldstone's investigation are not unfair. They are what they are. He is completely fair and reasonable when asking that Israel and Hamas hold their own credible investigations, but if they fail - the int'l community has an obligation to uphold the Geneva Conventions and other int'l laws.

    Israel claims they are the victims in this conflict yet if one looks at the number of casualties, loss of property, the destructive impact on the economy and on the civilian morale, it is evident who are the true victims in this castatrophe.

    I agree with Justice Goldstone's report and comments. Yes, both sides have guilt, but the fact is that Israel has a world-class fighting machine and Hamas has literally nothing to compare. Jimmy Carter has said that Hamas lobs missiles into Israel but few, if anyone gets killed. Israel retaliates by wiping out hundreds of people trapped in a densely populated area of Israel's making. Why are they still building in territories that don't belong to them? It's yet another kind of violence, intended to instill fear, show power and wipe out a people. Where is the shame, the conciliation?

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