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« Do Americans Suffer From an "Allergy to Thought?" | Main | Bill Moyers & Michael Winship: The Unbearable Lightness of Reform »

Preserving Planet Earth

(Photo by Robin Holland)

This week on the JOURNAL, Bill Moyers spoke with famed scientist Jane Goodall, best known for her groundbreaking work with Chimpanzees in Tanzania.

For the past two decades, Goodall has devoted much of her time to environmental advocacy, convincing audiences that saving the wilderness and wild creatures needs to be a priority for all of us, and that individual citizens can make a profound difference. She told Moyers:

"There have been extinctions. The dinosaurs are thought to have been [because of] a meteorite or something. And there've been gradual extinctions, because there have been fluctuations in climate that changes ecosystems and habitats. But since the industrial revolution, our human impact on the planet - our greenhouse gas emissions, our reckless damage to the natural world, the continual growth of our populations, have had a tremendously damaging effect... Wouldn't it be easy just to say, 'Well, it's a trend and it's just happening. The pendulum is swinging. We just better sit back and let it swing. And maybe one day it'll swing back.' If everybody stopped, [if] everybody gave up, then I wouldn't like to think of the world that my great-great-grandchildren would be born into."

What do you think?

How are you and your community helping to preserve the environment?


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Bill, I've been reading your posts for some time now, and hope you still continue a journal if you do decide to retire (so I've heard). Jane Goodall is simply one of a kind. Her dedication into the research of this field goes above and beyond anyone in our lifetime - furthermore she'll be referred to and recognized years from now for her efforts. Her concerns for what's happening in the environment are shared with many of us. There is great debate over the 'cause' of the fluctuations in climate change however most scientists do agree that it is indeed changing. I can only hope that we decide to make the smarter choices sooner then later...

Okay, so I'm being selfish here...

Focusing on what ME ME ME

wants - NOW! Stomping foot..

When you take a look at the biggest "investments" made in scientific research

the only "progress" in all that support

(and we know it's not LACK of "money" - see the FRAUD CLEARLY ESTABLISHED in the other thread on "legislation")

was New Age ways to kill each other and ourselves.

Medical research is the worst, but let's put aside the CLEAR data between industrial pollution and cancer that CHINA is gifting to the world right now...

And focus on "energy"...

That NASA satellite that just got online is providing more REAL

NOT THEORETICAL

data about Higgs-Boson particle than that LHC project in Switzerland...

Detroit, according to current "uber-rich" MORALIZING drug lords

won't make and economic comeback until 2038 and I guess that's how long OCD will keep their jobs doing "fraud" law suits. I do believe that there is enough DETAILS in the COMPLEXITY to last into 2038 - but they'll still LOSE the case in the end and it's our taxpayer money, right?

The FORMULA under-pinning all that complexity is startlingly SIMPLE:

More misery for others =
More money for ME ME ME

Yes, math and physics are irrefutable....

So let's pretend we have the RIGHT to move on from that dog and pony show of the psychotic and the sociopath

And re-tool the Swiss LHC to start

GENERATING electricity for EU and beyond

and get everybody taking in REAL sun data.

And don't ANYONE dare say there is "no money" for what we CAN DO NOW.

There NEVER was enough money in the system to begin with - that's the POWER over OTHERS PSYCHO GAME of hate, revenge and "religion"

so all the frekin' "contracts" issued in that system to STEAL EVERYTHING FROM EVERYBODY

are ALSO fraudulent...

And as we can ALSO clearly see NOW

the "science" liars thieves and murderers "fund"

are most often DELUSIONAL...

Since no one worried about how much a decade of "war" in the Middle East was going to cost - Rumsfeld said it would be "cheap" -

why do "we" have to worry about putting SCIENCE back in service to LIFE

without a fevered mind OCD "budget"?

2038 is an UNACCEPTABLE timeline.

I think that we should pull back are troops from the war in Afganistan.

- Plans to protect air and water, wilderness and wildlife are in
fact plans to protect man.
Stewart Udall (1920 - 2010

Posted by: C. Ikehara

Posted by D. Eddy
This earth is the center of our reality. It is designed to provide us life and that abundant.

We are meant to be Earth's caretaker instead we take it for granted and abuse its resources.
Earth has brought us life and it can also bring us death.
We need to be protected from ourselves.
Stupidity and madness precedes self-destruct.

- Plans to protect air and water, wilderness and wildlife are in
fact plans to protect man.

Stewart Udall (1920 - 2010

David F.
Some how the New Moore Island solution sounds like a classic do nothing and the problem will go away policy of the Republicants.
If it was up to the conservative Republicants; we would still be doing hunting and gathering and living in caves.

No more New Moore. The neocon drones were right. See how global warming is a good thing.

For nearly 30 years, India and Bangladesh have argued over control of a tiny rock island in the Bay of Bengal. Now rising sea levels have resolved the dispute for them: the island's gone.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/24/new-moore-island-disappea_n_511162.html

Oneself

As science continues down their theoretical black holes destructively dividing the universe into smaller and smaller sub-atomic smashing particles, and as religion does much the same faithfully dividing their higher gods with mortal men and all the lowly rest, the truth we are searching for, the truth or the light that unites mankind with the infinite universe, with freedom, is simply the universal truth of Oneself.

=
MJA

It's RICH countries that can afford to clean it up. Do you REALLY want THE WHOLE WORLD to look like Africa?
Posted by: kevin faber


Posted by David Eddy
That is true Kevin! That is why the rich countries are responsible for cleaning up the environmental mess. They are the ones with massive consumption. The rich countries are also claiming they cannot afford cleaning up the environment when in fact they are spending trillions on foolish wars and lush entertainment. Our resources are splurged on meaningless trivia while our living environment becomes a cesspool. And we have the gall to call ourselves intelligent while denying that nature is a magnificently designed structure.
People need to revise their value system before they become victims of their own foolishness.

300,000 (babies born ea day) x 98 (human body temperature) = Global Warming. Put your little global warmers back in your pants people!

Posted by: Chris

Keep doing the math...

optimal water needs per individual is 2 quarts per day....

"recycling" of natural, daily "fertilizer" emissions....

time needed to establish a "civilization" in, oh let's say Siberia, which is where who knows how many people might need to wander off to because of natural disaster displacements...

seven billion is an insect number - ants, cockroaches, etc...

it's NOT a human number...

Jane Goodall seems very aware of the importance of families in teaching enviromentalism.

Jane Goodall even wrote a very dramatic children's picture book about an orphaned baby monkey that's rescued by the Jane Goodall Institute and Sanctuary! (There's a startling description of it at this URL...)

http://tinyurl.com/y9c45ok

Wow. What a wonderful and powerful interview. Thank you Jane Goodall, for reminding us that the choices we make today will determine the fate of our children tomorrow. I hope we can be wise enough to take your advice, and in doing so save our own lives.

Bombing policy? John Kenneth Galbraith made a very cogent point on "Firing Line" a few years ago that bears repeating: people will prefer even a bad government to a bomber overhead. Or, one might say, a Predator drone...

The trouble with the "only one earth" argument is the failure to accept, or even recognize, modern society is so dependent on energy intensity it is IMPOSSIBLE to reduce consumption to any significant degree without disastrous consequences. More to the point, even if the Western world (that is, outside Africa, India, & Bangladesh in the main) was to cut use in half, IT WOULD MAKE NO DIFFERENCE IN THE PARTS OF THE WORLD MOST AFFECTED BY POPULATION GROWTH, which (I think the green zealots would agree) is a major issue. Solving that one needs new TECHNOLOGY (ooh, evil, evil, can't have that--unless it's PV cells, which somehow aren't "technology", because the greens like them). So why won't the greens & the "only one earth" loons support development of ocean power systems? Or, better sitll, orbital power satellites? (Just an example: SPS will produce power 24/7, which NO terrestrial system can, & not suffer the atmospheric attenuation: in short, it's at least two and three-quarters TIMES as efficient. And it won't put thousands of acres into PERMANENT SHADOW, which is just SOOOO eco-friendly; the green nuts won't even mention that, will they?) Instead, like all revolutionaries, they want everybody else to give up what they've got, while refusing to do the same. I took a class with a bunch of them once; they're keeping their cars, supermarkets, & college educations, & asking the rest of the world to give up a better standard of living so the green loons don't have to. If that isn't typical of revolutionaries, from George Washington to Che Guevara, I don't know what is.

Notice, also, the intolerance attached: those who disagree will "have to be convinced"--that is, heretics will be burned: a society of such limits, a "steady state" society, CANNOT TOLERATE DISSENT, because if there's questioning "Why?", the answers may not be ones the steady state will, can, support. The high standard of living you enjoy is one of the reasons you've got so much freedom. Poor people are too busy just trying to survive to care. And if you think REDUCING standards of living will help the planet, GET A CLUE: poor countries don't care about pollution, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO. It's RICH countries that can afford to clean it up. Do you REALLY want THE WHOLE WORLD to look like Africa?


What do you think?

I think it is a waste of time to look at lower forms of life for answers to people problems when all we have to do is look at people.
we need to be the solution to earth problems not the crazies that destroy the earth. We were intended to be the gardeners of the earth not the source of the earth's putrefaction.
We are supposed to be intelligent. Why would we want to destroy the only available place we have to live? By using our technology efficiently we could repair the damages we have incurred. All that is required is to change our value system to place saving the quality of our environment first. We are wasting our efforts and resources on foolish ventures and meaningless pursuits. Our idiotic concepts of economics are undermining our ability to prevent self-destruct. Our intelligence is our only advantage over the rest of the animal kingdom and we are wasting it on trivia. If we want to do something for the animals, the best thing we can do is do what is best for everyone and that is to reverse the destruction of earth. There are enough natural disasters without causing man made disasters.
We need to be creative not destructive

300,000 (babies born ea day) x 98 (human body temperature) = Global Warming. Put your little global warmers back in your pants people!

What a great show. As a kid, I loved watching Jane Goodall. She is a champion. As she expressed, I truly believe that our connection to the natural world is directly related to our positive evolution. We’re a crafty species and would survive killing off our planet, but what would we become. We destroy ourselves by destroying our world. Wisdom is a dieing art. Love that saying: borrowing from our children. “Sorry, kids, Daddy had to use your oceans for a toilet…don’t worry about it, it‘ll be ok.” Great show, Bill

Thank you Mr Bill Moyers, and for showing again what may be your most important interview.

Jane Goodall is a saintly person who threatens us all with peace and survival with a loving smile. I think that her message to us humans, for the survival of live as we know it, is that mother-child relationships of nature and creatures are what allow life to wake up and see the beauty in itself.


“If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.” -St Francis

Thanks Jane and Bill for the encouragement of humanity.

The day is coming when mankinds understanding of unity will go beyond the false and destructive barriers that so wrongfully divide us, and a light of truth will shine so bright, it will set us or the universe equitably free. I can see that light and be that light, as surely as others like Jane can see it and be it too.
Be One too,

=
MJA

The last Czar of Russia was worth about 6 Billion

built up from a millenia of an agriculture-based civilization.

The 180 turn around in "life style" happened with the "industrial revolution".

If anyone insists on continuing the farce that "living off the land" is a "new age" ideal

the FACTS and HISTORY are not on your side.

There is NO WAY that all the oil can be used up before a "gradual" switch is made because there is no way to SAFELY utilize all the chemicals left behind after extracting gasoline from crude oil.

Bill,

The interview with Marcia Angell was powerful and chilling. She very clearly set out the failure of the administration to clearly define health care reform that would actually serve people rather that protect the insurance companies. She is correct about "medicare for all". I believe that we have the systems in place: Medicare and the VA to provide the public option that could be phased in over time to insure and assure universal healthcare in the US. How is it, Bill, that our "great" country continues to be behind the rest of the "industrialized" world when it comes to really protecting our people. Isn't this the national security issue that really matters. Was the CEO of Aetna really the terrorist we are fighting?

Thank you for your good work. BTW: you started to look a little sick yourself during the Marcia Angell interview.

Best, Brian Auerbach

What an Inspriring person Ms Goodall is..I remember her as a child- watching her on TV...and wow, who knew she started in 1960..the year I was born...what a lovely sweet gentale soul she is.....she lives in the words of the song by John Lennon Ïmagine"..shame our world will never be that way...Greed Runs our world.

Wonderful program with Jane Goodall - enjoyed every moment.
Suggestion for a possible followup program: Pat Derby & Ed Stewart from PAWS to discuss elephants, the Amanda Blake Memorial Wildlife Refuge and other sanctuaries and the work they have been doing at PAWS for the past 25 years.

Grady, Joan, and the rest of the crew...being a localvore is a popular trend nowadays to try and save the planet.

http://www.localvore.net/

But the reality of the localvore fad comes under the 'upside down world' post I sent in earlier. I had a photo of a localvore vs a world (diverse) eater to show you guys - but I can't find it. The localvore is about 1 to 1- 1/2 feet shorter than the world eater. In any case, lets look at this localvore thing in detail.

We can see in this photo what being a localvore would mean to many of us.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/keepitlow456/localvoremyth.jpg

The localvore fruit salad is on the left, the 'world / diverse eater' is on the right. Although even this localvore fruit salad is only so-so local. The apple I dehydrated comes from Michigan which is 350 miles away and the raisins comes from CA which is 3000 miles away.

But lets pretend I grew them local, as they are possible to grow apples and grapes here. (Although all of my grapes failed to thrive and were pulled out...but lets pretend)

We can see that while being a localvore sounds good, we would have to cut way back in the diversity of what we eat. The world fruit salad comes from Italy, Honduras, California, Michigan, Costa Rica, Uruguay, Argentina, Florida and Chile. Now, I didn't go out of my way to find foreign fruits for it. This is just where all this stuff comes from between October until June.

This should underscore how dependent we are on crude oil for the world we have created. Lets say I wanted to supplement my localvore fruit salad with corn grits every day. Corn grows pretty well in the Mid Atlantic area where I live.But without crude based fertilizers made from natural gas or animal based fertilizer the corn grows undersize and sparse.

If you have every lived on a diet of corn grits, it is not that great. So, instead of corn grits, I could also make oatmeal from oats...imported from Canada.

Let me tell you sabot the last 2 - 50 pound sacks of organic oats I bought from Canada. The oats were filthy with dirt and dust. They had rocks in them and mouse poop. But all that could have been fixed by sifting, washing and drying the oats before I would roll them. What could not be fixed were the oats were rancid as hell. They all had to be trashed. Well, I guess I can always bake some bread...with wheat grown 2500 miles away in Montana and a grain grinder made in Korea.

You can see once we cut crude out of the picture things change dramatically for us.

It amazes me how the old timers and especially the Injuns survived these harsh winters. And I'm only in zone 6. What about the poor guys in the lower zones? Look at what I have to do to get my fruit trees to grow. The old timers did not have welded wire fencing and rabbit guards made from plastic.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/keepitlow456/squirrel1101_3936-1.jpg

Without this armor plating the dears would rip the tree in half and the squirrels and raccoons strip any fruit that would be on the tree even if there were no deer. And to top that off, many fruit trees are biennial's with their production...they only produce fruit every other year! I guess that is why the old timers were called 'people of next year' and the modern day people are called 'people of today.'

We should have made the Injuns our gods and worshipped them for their survival skills instead of killing them off.

Who would ever have thought finding real, honest food would be so tough nowadays. I have to drive 125 miles to buy raw milk and grass fed beef. If I don't get lost, I can make the round trip in just under 3 hours.

As far as costs?

Raw milk $9.60 a gal. Grass fed beef for stew cheapest cut $8 a pound. Tack on the $24 gas for the car.

Now, I don't eat or drink much of it cause of the cost and distance. (mostly distance issue) But our food chain keeps decomposing like hell and it is getting harder to feed oneself these days if one is looking for basic untreated natural foods.

No guys, I not a doomer. I am not a negative person. I am not against eating local. But when you look at the world we have created artificially through fossil fuels and where we are headed...it is not a pretty picture for us and especially our decedents.

I'll leave you with a rundown on grass fed beef for those that may not know how our beef supply has changed these last few decades.

The beef and poultry are force fed unnatural diets high on genetically modified corn. (proudly advertised as an 'all-vegetarian diet' on the packaging.) The all grain diet, coupled with growth hormones make the cattle outgrow grass fed cattle more than two to one.

The animals are packed like sushi into confined animal feeding operations and wade though oceans of their own manure. This close quarter confinement and loss of roaming ability also makes the cattle put on weight much faster than grass fed cattle.

The unnatural diet raises hell with their digestion and they have to be given loads of antibiotics to not die. Their digestive tracts culture drug resistant e.coli thanks to the antibiotics and it gets into / onto the meat when they are slaughtered.

As a bonus, a lot the good omega 3 fatty acids have been taken out of grain fed cattle's meat as well as cows milk, cheese, yogurt, butter etc, since they are not fed their natural diet of grass.

Pick up a half gal of organic milk that advertises omega 3. It most likely will be fortified with algae oil. What is left in grain fed meat is an imbalance of too much omega 6 fat that fuels our heart disease problems in the US and not enough omega 3.

The grain fed meat has to be radiated to kill the e.coli but the manure is still high in e.coli and gets into our other food products such as vegetables / spinach / almonds / apple juice etc. These have to be radiated / pasteurized / steam heated / chlorine bathed to try and kill the e.coli as well.

But the antibiotics still make their way into our diet through eating the grain fed meat, drinking the milk, eating the cheese, yogurt, butter. As well as our water supply from people taking the antibiotics as medicine and eating the tainted meat. As humans excrete waste it gets into the water and we drink or bath in it and absorb it up...what a mess!

Food related news sites:

http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/

http://civileats.com/

http://www.fooducate.com/blog/

http://producepedia.com/

http://www.metrofarm.com/mf_Food_Chain_Radio.php.

We need to preserve our disappearing knowledge, especially the hands-on knowledge of science. This is being done through the Science Skills Center
To know more about the Science Skills Center, see the link at:
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=149281
Also send e-mail to info@scienceskillscenter.org
We are creating a global network to save our vanishing hands-on science skills, procedures and concepts. Imagine during the sixties our science courses used to consist of as many as forty to sixty hands-on labs. Now they have been cut down to mere six to eight labs which are mostly demonstration with very little if any hands-on component. With this much watering down is it a wonder that our kids are running away from science and opting instead to music. Art and sports? Not that this is not desirable only that without science knowledge no matter how much else they know their intellectual and analytical development will always be incomplete. The Science Skills Center is striving to change that. Now in addition to taking your children to art lessons, music lessons and sports practice, you can also bring them to real hands-on science lessons. Send e-mail to know about our tour schedules workshops and courses plus summer science programs. These are based on total integrated learning not fragmented bits and pieces practiced by schools and colleges.

Allenwretch wrote, in part, "But I'll tell you right now Anna D, you will possibly have to tone down the radical posts a notch...for at least some of the forums anyway."

You sanctimonious, oil rich cretin - what makes you THINK for a second I would want to go to where YOU get to decice what is RADICAL?

What could POSSIBLY have been MORE radical

than to turn the planet into one toxic DUMP site?

There is HUMAN CARNAGE on USA streets from the payoff of 187,000 oil war MERCENARIES

and YOU dare to threaten me with CENSORSHIP...?!!

I am AT WAR, get it?

JUST WAR.

Saw you on Bill Moyer's Journal and was doubly touched by your commitment to save the world especially for our children and grandchildren. I am also a conservationist but I am concerned about another disappearing species - our knowledge. As you read this, please do not look at all you know but think of the children who are just starting to learn and lack real mentors and a real link to all we have learned from times immemorial. Unfortunately both the mentors and the link to the past are fast disappearing. A case in point is how little our universities and colleges are now teaching. A basic science course which during the sixties used to consist of anywhere from forty to sixty hands-on labs has now been reduced to six to eight mainly demonstration labs with little or no hands-on component. Imagine a person graduating with this little amount of sconce know how now becoming a science teacher in our schools or colleges. How little he or she would teach and how motivated their students will be to opt for science. This is even more serious when the world looks up to America and tries to "reform" their existing educational system to conform to that of the United States. I am remedying this situation by establishing a Science Skills Center where all science from its beginning to now is taught in a hands-on fashion complete with exposure to all the basic science instruments such as the microscopes and the spectrophotometers etc.
I believe that unless we do this soon we will be adding "knowledge to the list of endangered species" and with the knowledge gone, we won't be able to save the other vanishing species and our planet now in peril. The Science Skills Center has also dispelled another erroneous belief that we have learned so much that no one can learn all that much in one life time. The fact is that we have not learned all that much, it only looks that way because it is all spread out. Sift, sort, condense and integrate it and it shrinks. Science for instance gets reduced to mere 150 simple concepts and skills. Teach these and you turn on the thinking and analyzing aspects of human mind and soul. I am seeing this in action at the Science Skills Center. Imagine how much moral boost we can provide by teaching to the masses around the world via this form of curriculum. Even sky will not be the limit for such people and we would have hope for a thriving future world instead of the one we are now struggling to save.

Sincerely,
Riaz-ul Haque, Ph.D.,
Associate Professor (Emeritus)
University of Illinois at Chicago
Founder Center for General and Applied Education and
The Science Skills Center
729 S. Western Avenue
Chicago Illinois USA 60612
Phone: 312-243-7716
Fax: 312-243-2041
E-mail: rhaque@uic.edu OR haqueriaz@aol.com

Cathedrals are a puzzle. Just ask Henry Adams. But I think we are perhaps looking at them wrongly. We assume they are a tribute to God, or at most designed to inspire awe of God, but I wonder if they are not, at least as much, a tribute to ourselves, the creation of God. They are a commentary on design and science as surely as the intricacies of which Paley loved to trace. We often even compare nature to them rather than the other way 'round. There can be no separation of religion and science. It can only be if we fail to recognize their identity. We cannot stand aside from the planet - we are part of it. We need it to live. Yet we, ourselves, must create, tho we cannot assume therefore that we can create anything we want.

Grady Lee Howard...I haven't heard that name in ages. Sorry I missed your posts back in Dec. Grady.

Did you ever buy land Grady, start a garden and plant some fruit trees like I told you to do? Did you start buying your preps and some guns Grady?

Or are you still supporting deadbeats with your Wall Street money and hiding behind your wife's apron Grady?

Once Moyers shuts down, why don't some of the old timers here come over to forum links I posted in the other threads? We can always use more brains 'to try' and get at the truth. Here are a few other email lists too.

ParanoidTimes@yahoogroups.com
practicalsurvival3@yahoogroups.com
practicalsurvival3@yahoogroups.com

(But I'll tell you right now Anna D, you will possibly have to tone down the radical posts a notch...for at least some of the forums anyway.)

Lets take peak oil for example as Joan mentioned. Some of you think peak oil is like global warming and just some BS they lay on us.

Well, either crude oil and all other fossil fuels are available to us in an endless supplies and will never run out.

Or

Fossil fuels are not endless and will run out.

What do you think is the right answer?

If you decide they are finite and will run out - then the question is not if...but when.

So this topic of 'when' has to be studied and estimated best we can. I will be the first to say no one knows the exact date and time, but trends will help us prepare for what our future has in store for us.

We're doing something near to impossible, which is to predict the future. Tons of IF's, AND's and BUT's that could happen. We just don't know.

As futurists we try to anticipate future events and the direction the world is headed in and as survivalists we try to prepare for those circumstances.

Always remember...look at the trend.

Things can go in 3 directions...get better...get worse...stay frozen.

This helps remove some of that confused or wishful thinking and can help settle the war raging on in your head.

Here is the graph for crude. (which is in the low $80's now.) It is all over the place.

http://www.wtrg.com/oil_graphs/oilprice1947.gif

But China and India were not big crude users back in the day. Lets add this to the equation...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHLe3XipH8so&refer=home

http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.asp?StoryId=1093296430

So we can see that there are lots of input to this issue and we have to do the best we can deciphering it. My vote is crude is going to be a problem for us down the road...a big problem.

Survival is also about comfort Grady...we try to be as comfortable as possible in uncomfortable circumstances. When we get too uncomfortable we can die. It is that simple.

In Richard Heinberg's book 'Power-Down' he contrasts the survivalist mentality with that of the preservationist.

The wiki on this topic:

"A survivalist is a person who anticipates and prepares for a future disruption in local, regional or worldwide social or political order."

"Preservationism...as a term distinguishing between survivalist groups who wish merely to survive a collapse of civilization, and communities who wish to preserve as much of human culture as is possible in the event of collapse."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preservationist

Mr. Heinberg talked about a gene bank founded by Nikolai Vavilov in Russia and the dedicated preservationists that guarded the seed and gene pool. He went on to say how 9 of the scientists and workers starved to death because they refused to eat the seeds and tubers in the gene bank.

Now, I don't know if a few seeds or tubers would have made much difference in their surviving. But I can say a survivalist would have eaten the first one to die. While their efforts were most admirable, we can say their life was not an enviable one for us to emulate. And in the end they failed miserably at self preservation and survival.

Mr. Heinberg brings up a good point though, balancing the two areas of survival with preservation. For we may well survive, but if we do not preserve a semblance of a somewhat livable world to survive in, we may not wish to survive in what remains.

There is a famous saying: "First you get rich...then you get holy."

This applies especially to our topic at hand. Our first instinct is to survive. The foundation of our survivalist attitude is grounded in mental preparedness, knowing we have the tools and skill to survive. Then, once we have a semblance of peace, knowing we can survive with our skill level and necessities of survival, we can work on community and preservation.

This is how it has always been with a drowning man Grady...we save ourselves first and others second. And if we balk at natures way...both men drown. It is part of natural law as well and is imbedded in our instinct.

I like Jane Goodall and also think that we have to leave a better world for the next generation. Despite our pessimism about the dinosaurs going extinct, let us have hope and look to the future. Yes, I am also an Enya fan. Also, you don't have to be a Catholic to have faith in universalism.

To Grady Lee Howard and others who see the inevitable collapse of America if we try to live using sustainable ideals. You are right. And to the kids who want leave the educational system and want jobs to live a life, you are right too. But none of our rights will add up to one iota of difference to the planet. The system will collapse because its effect on the planet is more than the planet can carry. Peak oil is probably here so that downward trend will raise prices and we will feel those effects in every part of our society. But what then? Protectionism and closing borders which is to say no more food. Our current food system includes highly processed and imported foods -even of the produce we could grow ourselves we import because it creates money and feeds capitol. Can we eat money if we suddenly have none, millions of us? So when the economic system breaks down because nature rebels or because built in greed has perverted its structure, does it matter which is the cause? I think it's better to positively build a new way of relating to the earth which means (since our bodies are also natural) everything we do that relates to the earth starting with our food and health. The communities which adjust to this certainty that we can build a new -and yes eventually globally new-system of relationships starting at the local level (where else can revolutionaries start?)will be the communities who have the beginnings in place of what that new -dare I say it- world order will look like. But people have been killed while they resist the "owners" whose self-interest is attached to the system. It won't be easy.

Your back on the reruns. Must be packing your bags Moyers. Well, happy retirement in a few weeks.

Just don't forget to exercise or you will be dead in short order as many other retirees that sit back to relax to a life of eating and watching TV have found.

Here is the ideal world according to Victor Lebow

He was a 20th century economist and retail analyst, perhaps best known for his quotation regarding the formulation of American consumer capitalism found in his paper "Price Competition in 1955"

"Our enormously productive economy demands that we make consumption our way of life, that we convert the buying and use of goods into rituals, that we seek our spiritual satisfactions, our ego satisfactions, in consumption...We need things consumed, burned up, worn out, replaced, and discarded at an ever increasing pace. We need to have people eat, drink, dress, ride, live, with ever more complicated and, therefore, constantly more expensive consumption."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lebow

Now this is all fine if we can keep on growing forever, using resources that never run out and get rid of that toxic waste without polluting our environment to the point of killing us off.

But we can't...there are limits to it all.

Since you have posted an old rerun program, I will give you my old rerun answer Moyers.

Our world is upside down, when the right way to s sustainable future will bring our world down. The only thing to do to keep the Ponzi scheme going is to do just the opposite of prudent advice.

What would happen to our economy if we took the advice and did as this reworked 'victory' poster from WW II suggested?

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/keepitlow456/victorygarden.jpg

What would happen is our country would COLLAPSE!

IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE TO DO A 180...Without compulsive spending and conspicuous consumption funded by unaffordable debt, we would fail as a country. Since our economy if fueled 70% by the consumer, we must stay in debt and consume by any means necessary to keep the Ponzi scheme from collapsing.

We must make shoddy products that self-destruct quickly - so new products are in constant demand to keep the workforce of drones working. All the while squandering natural resources, but we are increasing the business of the landfills.

We must not grow our own food. We must buy poisonous food from chemical laden farms. Our concrete jungles could never hope to allow anything else from their inhabitants.

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/keepitlow456/DSC02545pot.jpg

Would you rather eat an embalmed potato or a live potato? The store bought 'Green Giant' red potato vs home grown KB potato. Both stored for 7 months in my root cellar.

And we must squander fossil fuels as fast as possible to keep the economy booming. What would all the tourists traps from Las Vegas to Florida do without the travelers? And the multitude of business that depend on travel along the pilgrimage routes?

On an a more global level, lets say everyone becomes voluntary simplicity and frugal squirrel devotees. We recycle, reuse, repair and just say NO to buying more crap. If we stop buying all the stuff that America imports from China - who keeps the 1.3 billion plus people in China from starving, so they do not go back to old ways of trying to take over the world?

We can see we have created a time bomb. Even the highest level brainiac economists can't fix what ails us.

Our whole system is based on an unsustainable model that will eventually collapse no matter how much money that is printed up by the Fed. (...they don't even need to print money nowadays, all that needs to be done to create billions is to magnetize a silicon chip!)

Tony Benn's take on things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnserZOf1-4&feature=related


Now, let's take a look at how our Ponzi schemed world was built...

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv219/keepitlow456/popchart.gif

We can see the population was pretty steady over the centuries. People lived within natures boundaries. They grew their food, burned wood for fuel and ate the game and fish nature provided...until the age of fossil fuels.

Whale oil or wood was the prevalent fuel up to that time. As whale oil was running out, coal and liquid coal (crude oil) came on board. Then petroleum / natural gas based fertilizers made cheap food possible.

Fossil fuels allowed people to move from an agrarian from of life to an urbanized city lifestyle that removed all the hard and dirty work of growing and producing one's own food. Fossil fusels also made possible many areas of life extending improvements to humans. And people spread to all corners of the planet and flourished...but by an artificial and non sustainable means.

What happens when something is running at an unsustainable pace?

It must slow down to a sustainable pace - if it is to keep moving forward steadily and sustainably.

It would be one thing if we all reverted back to rural living, burning trees for fuel and housing and living within our comfortable means allotted to us by nature, as our ancestors did back in the day. But seven billion people can't burn the trees!

When we live out of balance with natures intended means there is a price to pay to come back in balance with nature. And the price usually extracts pain from us in the adjustment process. Now renewable energy will replace some of fossil fuels benefit to mankind. But don't be under the delusion that they are a seamless and fungible replacement. There is NO replacement for crude

Even if we did find out how to burn water for energy, petrochemicals make up a large portion of crude's importance to mankind. Roughly 9% of every barrel of crude goes to petrochemical use.

If we stopped burning crude this instant, we would still suck the wells dry, albeit not as quickly, just from petrochemical use.

So even if we all stop driving, we will just be postponing the inevitable depletion of crude oil.

A partial list of products made from crude:

Solvents Diesel Motor Oil Bearing Grease
Ink Floor Wax Ballpoint Pens Football Cleats
Upholstery Sweaters Boats Insecticides
Bicycle Tires Sports Car Bodies Nail Polish Fishing lures
Dresses Tires Golf Bags Perfumes
Cassettes Dishwasher Tool Boxes Shoe Polish
Motorcycle Helmet Caulking Petroleum Jelly Transparent Tape
CD Player Faucet Washers Antiseptics Clothesline
Curtains Food Preservatives Basketballs Soap
Vitamin Capsules Antihistamines Purses Shoes
Dashboards Cortisone Deodorant Footballs
Putty Dyes Panty Hose Refrigerant
Percolators Life Jackets Rubbing Alcohol Linings
Skis TV Cabinets Shag Rugs Electrician's Tape
Tool Racks Car Battery Cases Epoxy Paint
Mops Slacks Insect Repellent Oil Filters
Umbrellas Yarn Fertilizers Hair Coloring
Roofing Toilet Seats Fishing Rods Lipstick
Denture Adhesive Linoleum Ice Cube Trays Synthetic Rubber
Speakers Plastic Wood Electric Blankets Glycerin
Tennis Rackets Rubber Cement Fishing Boots Dice
Nylon Rope Candles Trash Bags House Paint
Water Pipes Hand Lotion Roller Skates Surf Boards
Shampoo Wheels Paint Rollers Shower Curtains
Guitar Strings Luggage Aspirin Safety Glasses
Antifreeze Football Helmets Awnings Eyeglasses
Clothes Toothbrushes Ice Chests Footballs
Combs CD's Paint Brushes Detergents
Vaporizers Balloons Sun Glasses Tents
Heart Valves Crayons Parachutes Telephones
Enamel Pillows Dishes Cameras
Anesthetics Artificial Turf Artificial limbs Bandages
Dentures Model Cars Folding Doors Hair Curlers
Cold cream Movie film Soft Contact lenses Drinking Cups
Fan Belts Car Enamel Shaving Cream Ammonia
Refrigerators Golf Balls Toothpaste Gasoline

From this list we can see that we are massively depend on crude for our non sustainable lifestyle.

It has been estimated that for the earth to sustainably support its population without fossil fuels a 90% dieoff must occur. I don't know if that is the right figure, but I do know humans could not live as they do unless it was funded by artificial means via fossil fuels.

http://dieoff.org/

So if this dieoff happens, of course there will be great amounts of pain in the world. But it is natures intended balancing act.

It also reminds us that nature does not bow to humans - it is humans that always bow to nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

A new source of answers? Bill Moyers has nobly wrestled for decades with basic questions about human nature – Why is there war? Why do we believe in divinities? Why is our economic system so unfair? He has asked these questions of philosophers, religious leaders, scientists like Jane Goodall, New Age thinkers like Joseph Campbell, and a host of poets and novelists. Perhaps a different approach is needed, one that blends of the best of artistic (humanistic) and scientific modes of thought. A new area of science called PINE (psycho-immuno-neuro-endocrinology) holds great promise in this regard. For instance, PINE sciences reveal rigorously defined details such as the effects of sex hormones on the developing brain that can help us understand large concepts such as human feelings and behavior in everyday life. My book for the general reader How is Your Brain Like a Zebra? A new human neurotypology (2008) presents a PINE-based perspective on human brain and behavior that promises novel answers to many of Moyer’s basic questions. I encourage him and interested viewers to give it a look.

Friday Dec 16, 2009 - I was dismayed to learn this morning that Bill Moyers Journal and NOW will terminate in April 2010! While I understand Mr Moyers' reasons, I suppose I had hoped that he might be in the process of selecting a successor to this vital public interest show. As for NOW, I can discern no legitimate reason that this show should end... in fact, PBS would be doing its viewers a service by expanding NOW to an hour.

You mean "devining", not "diving."

Grady, you must play Scrabble with aliens and cheat.

There is no such word as "devine" from which anyone can be "devining".

It's NOT clairvoyance, Grady. It's a special "cell phone" access.

ANNA- You mean "devining", not "diving." Its Allenwrench does the diving. Devining is like "dousing" which has good evidence to be a real demonstrable skill or ability. I studied "dousing" with a practitioner in Switzerland as part of my media analysis thesis (Graduate University of Europe) and it really works. So I guess you could accurately state that Grady Lee Howard is a douser or water witch (with a trusty forked willow rod). You show signs of clairvoyance, if you would only relax and let it flow,"ANNA."

Cut down a tree, plant a tree-renew not rip-asunder.
Catch a fish, don't destroy its habitat.

It is simple! What's the problem?

Earth's climate has been warming & cooling for millions of years--can man have a short term affect on the change timing?

A local organization teaches young golfers (8 thru 18) rule no 1 is to leave the course in as good or better condition as they found it.
One small stept!

Billy Bob Florida

What do I think?

I believe that we are on a path from which our regrets shall know no limits. The only positive feature is that we will be dead long before the consequences of our actions and inactions will be known. Uncounted generations will grieve for what we have done.

Grady Lee Howard opined, in part, "Like Alice down the rabbit hole the Internet gets curiouser and curiouser."

Actually, when I read your stuff, I flash to the James Bond flick where Jane Seymour was kept around as head shamaness who channel "facts" from the sacred "we are one" cosmic knowledge frequencies for the drug lords and war lords....

Counselor Troi was an improvement in the qualifications for the "job" of "diving" what was in another person's heart and head...

Consorsing people who can speak for themselves in favor of "diving" TRUTH...? The very definition of "delusion", no?


Always the CONSUMERS of civilization engage in "processes" that can't compete with the competancy of the "processes" of OLYMPIC BUILDERS of civilization.

You need a new schtick, Grady.

We look forward every week to the Journal, and loved your conversation with the inspiring Jane Goodall. Given the situation in Afghanistan, and the surge of troops, it would be interesting if you could interview Greg Mortensen. I understand he is now a consultant to our military. We are NOT looking forward to your retirement! Patty

Alison Paine: Your environmental course comes too late. College works like this for the curious and caring student wanting to change this dismal world:
Freshwomen/men learn about all the injustices and structural threats in the world, their developments and histories.
Sophomores explore all the failed remedies and maybe even dabble in reform and remediation experiments.
Juniors come to understand the system structure and how the beneficiaries maintain it despite the ways it undercuts quality of life and the sustaining environment.
Seniors, having learned what is "real", scramble to gain employment in support of the oligarchy in hope of becoming an oligarch or near-oligarch, a one in ten million chance in a rigged contest.

An American college education (especially in business) usually produces a hardboiled apocalyptic robot.

This is a generalization, but the exceptions prove the tendencies.

Starting younger may not do much good either considering the status panicked parents and teachers with little time or resources to challenge up or down.

I do recall Jack Martin explaining how he was nurtured as a high school junior by a retired atomic warrior, Colonel Clark Thayler, who was a doctoral level ecological biologist in temporary remission of radiation poisoning. I learned as a young actor traveling to Greece (lost forests), the near Middle East and Europe (organic local food). These things happened 30 and 40 years ago, and though we have tried our best conditions have only deteriorated. Jane Goodall is a humane scientist who has seen her work ravaged by economic forces, and yet she depends upon the beneficiaries of this system for meager funding. (Book sales are not so lucrative for contrarians.)

And yet, Allison Paine, thank you for trying to do the right things, and for learning and knowing. Also thank Goodall. It would be interesting to track the life situation of your most environmentally ardent students from five years ago. Have they paid off their loans yet? Are they buying Luvs and deducting daycare on their taxes, or still living with relatives or friends and seeking a living wage.

I don't know what the alternatives may be, but I do know from dealing with counterculture fugitives over time that the underground has pretty much dried up. Alternative flirtings are reserved for the wealthy and connected. The system can find or hide anyone because political power is as polarized as wealth and property. If Osama bin Laden were alive he'd probably be living in the El Dorado neighborhood of Santa Fe, in a luxury stone home between Valerie Plame and Pervez Musharraf.

The main thing students need to be told is how few slots there are for "success" and how "winners" are chosen in such a way as to influence the overall dynamic. The takeaway is that good planetary citizens (who love the Earth and life in general)should question authority and ignore media celebrities. Individual sellouts can win hollow prizes but dissenters working collectively can save humanity, sanity and this planet where we are integral. But it just ain't happening, yet. Even President Obama has succumbed to peer pressure and is acting irrationally.

Reading between the lines we see that the oligarchy cannot be appeased. They want it all, and they want it now, all the time. (Why else would a crazy sounding poster claim to be a middleaged woman when he is really a young businessman? Contrast this with sincere Alison Paine.) Like Alice down the rabbit hole the Internet gets curiouser and curiouser. Keep keeping it real, Ms. Paine.


Posted by: David F.
"This is Argentina. It could be anywhere. Abandoned factories, cracked cement, rusting machines...."
"The demand for dignity and the searing injustice of dignity denied" was very well stated.
Thanks for the link. I was impressed.
The documentary of a real life, a lesson that no "system of education" or substitute
can supersede!

MJA wrote, in part, "Here in the west the BLM is erradicating the wild mustangs from our public lands because they compete with the agribusiness of beef."

If by "eradicating", you mean keeping the numbers down, then, yes, the BLM is doing it.

But did you know, MJA, about the history of the "wild mustangs"?

Here's FACT from an "answers" site:

"The first horses, about the size of a large German Shepard dog, roamed the prairie's around the Wyoming and Montana territories around 15 to 17 thousand years ago. For some reason, maybe early man hunting them, they disappeared. Then again the early Spanish explorers setting across the Southern United States on their quest to find the seven cities of gold brought horses with them. These were the first of the new Mustangs that now roam the entire Southwest."

So the "wild" mustangs became wild because they were abandoned by man - it takes a lot to feed and water a horse...same story with all the abandoned burrows of the gold rushers...

It takes a lot more than passionate fanaticism to find out how to best do animal husbandry...ranchers need the horses and burrows and donkeys...and there still are large swaths of the "west" where the best transport of the first bits of modern civilization is the horse, donkey or burrow.

BLM is asking for proof of a person's ability to take care of a wild horse or burrow before they give them the animal - seems most people "buying" them at auction were doing it for the $$$ in some way...do your own homework as to what brought in the most money for the buyer...

Since it appears my point didn't reach you, MJA, about the lizard situation, let me repeat it...a SOLAR ARRAY has been halted...heck, I'll do the "science" to dispute the threat to the 2 lizards - but the DAMAGE is done to the ECONOMY, isn't it?

buy our oil, or die...

buy our heroin, or die...

buy our cheap WalMart crap, or die...

Which "wild" species of human is being threatened, MJA?

May I recommend a new "reality show"...? It's called "Meet the Natives" - on cable TV...

"In wildness is the preservation of nature." Thoreau

Here in the west the BLM is erradicating the wild mustangs from our public lands because they compete with the agribusiness of beef.

If you want to help, boycott beef and tell a friend of nature the same.

Thanks,

=
MJA

Not today, but in a couple of days, besides the newly emerged Lizard King, re-created Enron-ers and AMAZINGLY corrupt and incompetant "city council" water bills - as well as a new round of telephone calls from people jumping on the mass distributed buzz that banksters aren't actually LOWERING the rates

(who was delusional enough to think they would???!!!)

let me just say Arizona is NOT your father's "Goldwater"...it's Tombstone without ANY Wyatt Earps...

Seriously, is the "sacrifice" that all of us can make is to become heroin addicts to help pay for the "war" of necessity...? A childhood friend who "sacrificed" her life to heroin ended up in a field in Maryland, head bashed in by the "john" who then drove his SUV over her body - twice...

It's a sick joke to box people up so completely in order to have a 1% "elite" rule the world...

Evidence is mounting that the BEST in the USA population are targeted for eliminiation - one way or another...someone get their hands on the Homeland Insecurity "list" - ask our local "friggers" gang of bloggers - they don't "like" me and it's starting to show...

"Resistance is not futile..." :-))

For anyone still delusional enough

(and sorry for the sarcasm, but it seems like Obambi is NOT "mahdi" or wha'ever - being a woman seems to help, you learn early that lying is as simple for men as "breathe in, lie out" - just the facts, Ma'am)

to BELIEVE that the "environmentalists" are a holy group of nature lovers...

here's a CURRENT story for ya'll from the desert...

A couple of weeks ago, after years of horse swapping and bull wrangling "politics", an approval was granted for the building of a solar array....

Less than a week later, a case is filed by some holy environmentalists to HALT the construction because they have "evidence" that the construction COULD, MAYBE, POSSIBLY, endanger 2 species of LIZARD...

In between the LOUD and snarky laughter of the MANY "retired" oil tycoons langishing in baronial splender in their local winter retreats is the LOUD silence of enforced poverty.

Native Americans have been watching this theatre a long time now...they keep making the "mistake" of being HUMAN

("savage" was the psychobabble of past psychos)

and thinking 7 generations out to the future....

Well, guess we are all going to have to get busy with our local issues - I'll take care of the Lizard King...should be easy enough to PROVE the oil company paw print on the filed case HALTING the building of solar arrays....

But we all have to walk and chew gum at the same time - after hearing so many bloviators turn out unguarded oneliners late last night like "...the opium trade IS helping pay for the troops..." and a draft would "...lower the unemployment rate....", it seems clear that the DRUG WAR was already WON by the drugs - since opium is paying for the "war", guess if a gang of people with baseball bats show up at the KNOWN dealors "office", the federali will be sent to KILL off the resistance to the heroin trade...?

Good morning INSANE new world order..."save the lizards"...

NOW can the resistance print up their own "money"...?

(Avi Lewis): Welcome to the globalized ghost town. This is Argentina. It could be anywhere. Abandoned factories, cracked cement, rusting machines. But in the rubble, something’s growing. Jobs are coming back.

(Naomi Klein): Actually, jobs are being taken back. The new slogan: “Occupy.” “Resist.” “Produce.”

THE TAKE
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8149373547373833649&ei=9qYVS6atJ4yIqQOvipQg&q=the+take#

Now here's a wonderful example of the abuse of "science" - IGNORING the obvious - human beings are no longer chimpanzees because SOMETHING happened to make us human...and that something left behind the chimps as chimps.

So the PROMOTION of the theory of de-evolution back to "animal" through the use of POLITICAL POWER is pretty much a wacked-out "religion", not "science".

Cartoons can make "humanize" chimps through fictional story telling, but that's about it, huh?

Human beings have the capacity to understand a timeline of "life" that includes a future - their own and seven generations out...

But today, it seems like de-evolution is "true", the "perception is reality" folks are baa-aa-aack.

Sigh.

Seven generations out, we'll have solar, wind, water, hopefully domesticated beasts, and natural gas as sustainable sources of "energy" and who knows what marvels of discovery await the seventh generation when they learn more about utilizing solar energy (I believe there's at least 6 BILLION years left in the nuclear reactor we call "The Sun") and lightening :-))

And the deuling "realities" will continue to wage "war" on the internet...

Alden Moffat: Can the dead and the never born hate? When humanity departs there will be no one left to cry or complain. Maybe some intelligent rats or fungi will say'"Whew! What a relief!" (There are so few whole human beings alive today anyway. A fingersnap could terminate... .)

If we are to survive our technology, we will have to revise our economic system to pay for the research and implementation of new regulations that protects our environment. We have been destroying our earth systems for a long time and the damage has reached a critical condition. Instead of space exploration, we need to be doing earth renewal. We need to use our resources to assure the survival of earth as a viable sustainer of life.
The first thing we need to do is convince people that our present courses of actions are self-defeating and self-destructive. Then, we need to call a halt to technology that is causing damage to the environment and develop new technology that will refurbish the earth and provide quality life experience for everyone. We need to use our resources wisely not trash the world in which we spend our life experiences.

"...42 species of Birds of Paradise..."

The bird dance was a big hit on YouTube :-)

I think the female was looking for a very light-footed male - a sign that the math formula for flying is programmed into ALL his cells and therefore won't get lost in transmission to the next generation...just a theory about cellular programming :-))

The Emu male is quite the dancer also - birds...gotta love them...

As for Jane Goodall, she did inspire my sister and myself to maintain a scientific journal of observation of the boys in class - just like she did with the chimpanzees...

Operationally, I still go with my "food" chain theory and act accordingly with animals in the wild.

Kind regards.

Thank you Mr. Moyers for a life time of contributing to what's best about America. You are truly a voice of hope and reason and I wish you the absolute best in what ever you do next. I, and all Americans, owe you much.

I am a viewer from Germany who was saddened to hear that you, Bill, may retire, even though I know how well you deserved your retirement.
Thank you, Danke, for all your excellent journalism of domestic and international interest!

Mr. Wiek wrote, in part, "We are told to educate the people, but education takes a generation or more, time we do not have for most species! No optimistic look here..."

Education is completely a matter of "culture", and culture is as complex as the human immune system :-)

I am sorry that the name of the bird escapes me right now, but I can't forget the visual provided by a wonderful documentary film that caught the dance the male bird did in hopes of attracting a female willing to mate with him...the people doing the filming kept the camera on the male bird all day, noting that he did not get a single female taker on that day.

I wish I could have been there with the crew because I would have followed the female to see how many males danced for her that same day and whether she found a dance she liked enough to mate with the male. Certainly that info about her choice could have been used to advance the knowledge of what really matters to that bird species as "superior" genetics.

If the "education" of "females" is left up to the "males", all you are going to get is uneducated females.

The reason a light-hearted movie like "Dr. Doo-little" was so popular was because a lot of us humans have had similar experiences - granted not as exaggerated as the movie - with animal encounters. Before Dr. Doolittle we had, among Catholics, the legend of Francis of Asissi (sp?)...

Animals process the human encounter from a simple filter - food.

They can only figure out whether we will lead them to food, share or provide them with food, or are we to be their food.

And since every animal has its own skill set regarding food supply, it's up to us humans to decide on the way the relationship is going to go with them - especially in the wild.

Jane was pretty brave in establishing some other kind of "relationship" with the primates she was "observing" as they "observed" her.

I agree, Mr. Wiek, that humanity (across all cultures) has taken a wrong turn in mistakenly equating a "food" source with something as abstract as "money" IS in greedy and ignorant "hands" today.

I teach environmental science at the college level, here in the US. My students do not have a clue about the situation of the earth prior to taking my class. we present info on just about everything Jane mentioned-the education of women and its relationship to the environment (and fertility rates), agricultural methods creating deserts, the impact of the developed world on other parts of the world, etc. My students tell me over and over "everybody needs to take this course". I agree, everybody needs to learn about what we are doing to the one and only earth we have so that they feel some ownership for the future generations. My main concern is that the human population issues are not discussed due to their 'sensitive' nature. It is humans who are causing problems, and as Jane said, it is astounding that we have such an advanced intellect but appear to have a disconnect concerning our impact on the earth. We have the knowledge to fix things, but do we indeed have the courage?
Alison in Michigan

AMERICA'S PRIORITIES....MOVING FORWARD
By Alyce Vrba
WE as Americans are proud, resilient, creative, hard-working and sometimes hard-headed and slow to learn lessons from the past...but WE are not the globe's police force, WE are not the globe's bank-roller, WE are not the globe's patsy.
WE as Americans individually and collectively must focus on rebuilding our AMERICA for our 21st Century...
1) Restructuring and streamlining our healthcare system;
2) Restructuring our financial system; controlling powerful interests; instituting accountability, disclosure, and meaningful consequences for white-collar crime perpetrators and their fellow street perpetrators;
3) Rebuilding our infrastructure, including transit lines and systems that cost-effectively, safely, and in a renewable energy, green framework transport our goods and our PEOPLE; implementing state-of-the-art cost-effective grid systems and communication systems;
4) Rebuilding, protecting, and conserving our environment - our land, our water, our air;
5) Implementing safe, affordable housing and housing our homeless - as many of our homeless appear to be U.S. citizens, our veterans;
6) Implementing small business administration loans, programs, and contract awards that focus on loaning to, hiring American citizens, that produce products and services utilized in our Regions;
7) Demanding full accountability, disclosure, and timely, cost-effective performance and competency at all levels of our government: Federal, State, Local: County, City, including weeding out dysfunctional agencies, programs, and mindsets;
8) Instituting programs at our school systems that instruct our students by age 10 to understand the basic elements of a written or oral contract or obligation; to understand a budget; to understand basic accounting; to understand and use checking, savings, and investment accounts...and to continually move toward, to excel in science, math, organizational, management, and critical thinking and decision-making skill sets.
WE as AMERICANS can achieve; Can go beyond situational socioeconomic insecurities; Can move into implementing, thriving, and living with sustainable values that constructively move us forward versus settling for situational values. WE are AmeriCAN.
A.VRBA, Copyright 2009, All rights reserved.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING AND HOLIDAYS. KEEP THE FAITH
========
See PBS, CHARLIE ROSE, www.charlierose.com,11-20-09,discussion with Thomas L. Friedman, Stephen P. Cohen, Eugene Rogan
See PBS, BILL MOYERS JOURNAL, "A Tale of Two Quagmires", www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2009/11/a_tale_of_two_quagmires.html
See New York Times, "Life Lessons, Home Fires", By Roman Skaskiw, http://opinionator.blogs/nytimes.com/2009/11/23/life-lessons?
See PBS, NOW, "Who's Helping Our Wounded", 11-19-09, www.pbs.org/now/blog/2009/11/whos_helping_our_wounded_vets_l.html
See PBS, "Military Takes Unique Approach to Controlling Consumer Debt", 11-24-09, www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec09/credit_11-24.html
See CBS, FACE THE NATION, "When the Red, White and Blue Is In the Red", 11-22-09, By Bob Schieffer, www.cbs.com/stories/2009/11/22/ftn/main5736068.shtml
See BBC, "Inquiry focuses on Iraq", 11-24-09, www.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8375439.stm
See PBS, NOW, "Will Goldman Sachs Apology Lead to Forgiveness?", 11-11-09, Elizabeth Warren, www.pbs.org/now/2009/11/will_goldman_sachs_apology_lea_1.1.html
See PBS, FRONTLINE, "The Card Game", 11-24-09, www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/creditcards/
See CBS, 60 MINUTES, 11-22-09, "The Cost of Dying", www.cbsnews.com/video/watch?id=5737138n
See PBS, NEWSHOUR, "Senate Debate on Health Care Will Put Lawmakers to the Test", 11-23-09, www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec09/rx_11-23.html
See PBS, FRONTLINE, "Sick Around the World", Five Capitalist Democracies and How They Do It", www.pbs.org/wghh/pages.frontline/sickaround/theworld
See PBS, NEWSHOUR, "High Obesity Rates Stress U.S. Healthcare Budgets", 7-27-09, www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec09/obesity_07-27.html
See New York Times, "And the Pursuit of Happiness, Back to the Land", 11-26-09, By Maria Kaufman, www.kalman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/26/back-to-the-land/?emc
See New York Times, "America vs. the Narrative", 11-29-09, By Thomas L. Friedman, www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/opinion/29friedman.html
See New York Times, "The Phantom Menace", 11-22-09, By Paul Krugman, www.nytimes.com/2009/11/23/opinion/23krugman.html
See New York Times, "Signs of Hope", 11-24-09, By Bob Herbert, www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/opinion/24herbert.html?hp
See New York Times, "The Values Question", 11-24-09, www.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/opinion/24brooks.html?_r=l
See Washington Post, Gore on SNL, "We're Melting. Love the Glaciers", http//voiceswashingtonpost.com/44/2009/11/al-gore-on-snl-we're-melting-lo .html
See BBC, "Obama Vows Major Greenhouse Gas Emissions Cut", 11-25-09, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8378890.stm
See PBS, NEWSHOUR, "Bound for Copenhagen, Obama Faces Climate Change Obstacles", 11-25-09, www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/environment/july-dec09/climate2_11-25.html
See PBS, NOW, "Options for Fighting Climate Change", 4-17-09, www.pbs.org/now/shows/516/FightingClimateChange.html
See NBCLA, 11-29-09, author of "Science Is A Contact Sport", global warming, www.nbcla.com
See BBC, America's high rate of prison population. REFORMING AMERICA'S PRISON SYSTEM. QUESTIONS: 1) Who is in our prison system; 2) Why; 3) Hiring, job, housing prospects upon release; 4) Immigration status, and consequences of this status...?
See BBC, "Gang Turncoat Reveals Violent Secrets", 9-11-08, http://news/bbc.co.uk/2hi/7609269.stm
See Justice, HARVARD UNIVERSITY, www.justiceharvard.org/index.php?option=com_content&view , "The Claims of Community, Part I/Where Our Loyalty Lies, Part II", Episode NO. 11, re obligations, loyalities, claims of communities, circles of influence, actions.
QUESTIONS: 1) Regarding obligations and our actions related to such, do obligations implied or expressed alter over periods of time, individually and collectively based upon our understandings, our experiences, our reflections?
2) Can perceived obligations or mindsets from other nation States or special-interest groups hinder the taking of responsibility; hinder the constructive progress; and instead inadvertently maintain or foster a cloud of denial, dependency, corrrupton, incompetency in nation States, such as Mexico, Afghanistan that appear to delay a) the control, the taxation, the institution of meaningful consequences of and for their illegal drug enterprise; b) the implementation of fair, equitable, and collectible tax policies and systems, utilized to rebuild their infrastructure; and 3) the failure to control over-population that often times leads to increased poverty; increased demands on our land; our water; our air; our individual, collective, and global human and financial resources?
========
A.VRBA, 2009

Jane Goodall is simply amazing..so wise and enlightened...she is like a Buddha..serene, compassionate, passionate...Do a longer show with her and show us how we can organize and get tings done....

As always, I enjoyed the interview with Jane Goodall. Thank you for having her as your guest.
I recently read that you (Bill) are planning to retire next year. PLEASE reconsider your decision. There is no-one who can take your place!!!!au

Posted by: elizabeth
"I hope someday to contribute to the grid, rather than take from it!"
"...turn on the heat." These luxuries come at a price."


When is it enough to stop taking "stealing" from "the financial grid?"

It is interesting to view the information provided. The Media states,
"Iranian authorities have confiscated Nobel Peace laureate Shirin Ebadi's medal,...
and of the increasingly drastic steps they are taking against any dissent..."
Norway, government said "the confiscation was a shocking... --- including a raid
on her office." It further states, "The seizure of her prize is an expression of the
Iranian government's harsh approach to anyone...".
One must compare "the confiscation of a medal" in one country to that of "harsh
approach" in our country. We have ramped corruption, eviction, confiscation and
legalize fraud; Selling of worthless instrument stocks, bonds, swaps etc. created
by a "dysfunctional government" with no warranty.
Thanks to the Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Law. The "Debtor in Possession" is the only
authority with priority property rights.
The "notes" at maturity that become "draft to be paid on demand" under the
Uniform Commercial Code (U.C.C.) are ignored.
The justice system turns blind eye and ignored the U.C.C.
There are so far over "140 Bank that have been foreclosed by the FDIC."
There are over 150 Corporation that have filed Chapter 11 Bankruptcy just in
New York city, not to mention in other parts of the Country.
These are trillions of dollars being "seized - confiscated." Bankruptcy at it best
form - Legalize fraud! The seizure of property; Red flesh prepared to the
taste of an expression "Too big to fail!"
Uncontrolled fees. The attorneys fees are up to at least $1000.00 an hour.
The shock of trillions dollars confiscated far exceeds the shock of the
"Nobel Peace.. medal."
The Media had been silence of the "harsh approach" and the reality of "shocks"
imposed on the citizens.
"These luxuries price comes" at the expense of the innocent!


I just came out of the jungle of Northern Thailand where I went to see wildlife, but it was an empty forest, no wild animals left! Ethnic minorities are poaching everything there is and nobody stops them, selling pangolins, bears, primates and even wild cats to the Chinese. They get away with it as human right NGO's say it is their right to do so... See More.... Now back in the "civilized" world I see illegally kept wildlife being exploited everywhere by western tourists who should no better but don't... We are told to educate the people, but education takes a generation or more, time we do not have for most species! No optimistic look here...

When the "hockey stick" theory used in Al Gore's movie is revealed by it's very founder to have been the result of manipulating data, then we have to take a step back and start asking questions no matter what side of the debate you're on.

If we let this discovery go untested, then what we have ladies and gentleman is a religon, not science.

Posted by: Bill


In my opinion, the most dangerous SOCIAL aspect of the post information-age babies is their BELIEF that the world around them came full blown out of the head of medusa one day and

NO ONE in 10,000 years of human civilization that came before they burst onto the scene as "leaders" of one mono cause or another

knew what the heck they were doing in the way of "caretaking" the "environment"

No offense to Jane, but I am pretty sure that many human beings that came before her had as "deep" of a knowledge of the goings on in chimpanzee "families" as she came to writ :-)

ALL the horror of this past decade - be it raison de etre for "war", another strategic economic depression, mercury light bulb fads - ALL of it has at its ROOTS - MANIPULATED DATA.

I am not some grossly greedy "consumer" of electricity sucking up 890 KWH a month...

Remove all the "multipliers", "derivatives", and cynical cube roots and then restart the "science". From wikipedia - some "science" about the IMPOSSIBILITY of a household's "usage" being 890 kilowatts:

Kilowatt
The kilowatt equal to one thousand watts, is typically used to state the power output of engines and the power consumption of tools and machines. A kilowatt is approximately equivalent to 1.34 horsepower. An electric heater with one heating element might use 1 kilowatt. The average annual electrical energy consumption of a household in the United States is about 8,900 kilowatt-hours, equivalent to an average power of about 1 kW

My thought...Educate the females. Any better ideas?

Posted by: Ed W


Uh, you are suggesting "educating" females on a show about Jane Goodall - that's ironic.

Yes, I have a better suggestion - educate the men about "population control".

I think even Jesus spent a lot of time teaching men about the spiritual equality of men and women and if that was truly accepted as fact, it would have been mentioned in the books that everyone else wrote ABOUT "Jesus".

I can see where this is going to go in a couple of days....Rachel Carson all over again...

Be honest with at least yourself, Ed, if Jane were John, you'd be less glib with your "deep thoughts".

In the final analysis, things being as they really are - savage, violent, and might is right, arming women would be better than educating them. Some interesting legends filtering through the USA propaganda machine about Africa...

Be afraid, be very afraid

:-))

Our kids and grandkids will do nothing but hate us for the mess we are leaving them. Here in the United States we have done almost nothing to preserve forest habitat for the native species who have lived here for millions of years. If you look at satellite photos you see nothing but cities, checkerboard farmland and clearcuts from coast to coast. The reason we are rich is because we have used all the resources of this continent in just 200 years. It's time to give what's left to the future. We should not bicker about what we should give. We should just leave all of it; every piece of remaining wild land, every bit of clean air, every drop of pristine water. there is no hope for mankind if we don't do this now.

Great interview with Mrs. Goodall. Timely as well. As I watched the interview, I'm reminded of the many people like Goodall, who have spent a lifetime understanding the environment and the eco systems in it. True environmentalism has been highjacked by politicians and the corporations that invest heavily in them. It has been these two forces that have marginalized the efforts of people like Goodall.

So great are these forces that well-meaning, bright, individuals - often pioneers of the eco-movement, have been sucked into this false reality of climate change as the "catch-all" doom that affects the very work they spent a lifetime achieving. Politicians and corporations are animals of self preservation by any means possible up to, and including the co-opting of a movement, philosophy, or deed.

While it's great that Moyers hosted Goodall, the message remained pathetically closed. That is, the message of doom caused by "climate change" seamlessly consumed Goodalls lifetime efforts.

Not surprising though, in true Moyers fashion, the message of the etablishment is paramount to everything else.

I'd like to see Moyers show that there are two sides to the environmental debate. I'd like to see Moyers do a peice like Amy Goodman from Democracy Now where she hosted a California couple who have been working for the EPA and have publicly decried the flaws in a cap & trade system.

As an alternate story, (or in conjunction with) the internet is ablaze with the discovery of the leaked emails coming out of the University of East Anglia’s Hadley Climate Research Unit (CRU).

Perhaps Goodall, and many other pioneers of true environmentalism would have a different perspective if they learned that the "science" in climate change was deliberately being manipulated to fit and support an agenda far removed from the goal of environmentalism. A story of this caliber is monumental however, the main stream media refuses to make even a tiny mention.

While I still believe that this peice with Goodall was fine, we continue to do her (and others alike) a diservice by omitting the other half of the debate. For fans of Moyer, I encourage you all to press him on bringing you an honest discussion of the CRU leaked emails prior to the Copenhagen sumit. When the "hockey stick" theory used in Al Gore's movie is revealed by it's very founder to have been the result of manipulating data, then we have to take a step back and start asking questions no matter what side of the debate you're on.

If we let this discovery go untested, then what we have ladies and gentleman is a religon, not science.

With information on a vital compelling issue such as conserving our animal companions continued existence and presence on the planet Earth being explored on national television and hearing from pioneers like Jane Goodall informing the people of the world about their edangerment, people cannot but become active and aware of the importane of their taking meaningful action be it local, naional or international. I for one will get started tomorrow in finding out just what I can do to join my voice & pen & checkbook to an organization I choose who will implement protective action by my family to the family of working men & women who expouse enviornmental conservation issues. Thank you Jane, Bill - all others who care and take action.

The relevant and consistent theme is the massive ship of humanity. Like any large vessel, foresight must be used to steer it. It just may be that we need a smaller, more nimble vessel.
What this means is that human population is going out of control. We may find a solution for an isolated pocket of this world, but the wrecking crew of humanity in it's large uncontrollable ship can easily wipe out these small individual gains. The net result already proves this. As we have "mastered" nature and other species, we must learn to master ourselves so that we can use our foresight and intelligence to make a positive difference to this planet, whereas now, the majority of our intelligence culminates in the net destruction of the planet.
Our intelligence and foresight must win out over our natural urges to reproduce at exponential rates. We can cure the majority of the planets ills in 100 years...If we can control ourselves. This need not be a gloom and doom scenario, but one of joy and common purpose. We have all benefited from the bounty of the earth, but the time is now that we must give back the earth, so that we may save it for all of the generations to follow. Each of us has a responsibility to our earth, to our children and to our species. If we do not use the God given talents given uniquely to humans, then we are no better than apes!

Imagine a world where everyone was as sweet and beautiful as Jane.

A wonderful program filled with hope and anticipation. When I first met Jane a life time ago, she was an inspiration to me to become an anthropologist. She touches lives and brings a spotlight to the needs for an improved stewardship of our little planet. Thank you for your wisdom to have her on the program.

Ralph

Great show with a great guest. Bill, I'm afraid you missed the problem also. Population. 2 Billion when I was born and 6.6 billion now...in one generation. Now for a question: How do we reduce the human population in a realistic way? My thought...Educate the females. Any better ideas?

Jane Goodall has been one of my heroes and inspirations most of my life, and it is wonderful to see her carrying on this role in new ways with the generations of my children and grandchildren. As she said, let's hope they can learn to be better stewards of our planet than we are. Our ancestors had the excuse of ignorance. We do not, and yet too many of us remain ignorant, spouting meaningless numbers as if they are scientifically valid and provide adequate argument for us behaving like spoiled brats pooping all over our home. For example, as I write this, genocide is occurring in the Yellowstone region, where 170 (and counting) illegally delisted endangered wolves are being hunted down ruthlessly to serve the political interests of those who think that trophy hunting is somehow more important than the Yellowstone ecosystem and trumps the law. After all the negative consequences of our ancestors extirpating major predators (the canaries in our ecological coalmine), you'd think we'd know better. Apparently not, those of us in the developed world especially are still too wedded to the almighty dollar. Which is why real unemployment in the U.S. is over 15 percent, too, I guess. We didn't learn from the Great Depression, either. As for the rest of the world, we have learned that human population growth - one of the critical issues in ecosystem destruction - can be better controlled through empowering mothers. Maybe they'll help the rest of us learn to control our insatiable appetite for consumption.


Bill,

I loved the show again tonight. Very thought provoking.

I don't think the key question is how are you and your community helping to preserve the environment?

Jane Goodall kept mentioning the cause of the problems, but you seemed to miss it. It was the increasing human population on this planet. The last person I heard who mentioned this was Jacques Cousteau about a decade ago. Wisdom seems to kick in too late, and no one wants to touch this emotionally charged topic.

If we are smarter than chimpanzees we should stop having kids. But, I guess we are not as smart (nor as caring) as chimpanzees.

Perhaps we should take Dawkins "selfish gene" quite literally. We will continue to destroy the environment and planet unless we produce less but more intelligent offspring.


For the sake of a good discussion, with respect to R. Beever's post: Of course there are bleeding heart liberals who become fixated on control of others or control of choices. These folks impose a lot of judgement on others. However, I think a more important and useful point, and the point that Jane Goodall is making (to my mind), is that 1. the health of the planet is at an important juncture and it effects our health as humans, and 2. together we can make a difference via direct conservation efforts. There is action that I can take - and that it is worth an effort. I think her argument is not that we should control others, but that we can get up off the couch and do something ourselves.

"When Ms. Goodall goes home tonight she will turn on the lights and open her refrigerator and if it is cold outside she will turn on the heat. These luxuries come at a price. Liberals want to deprive everyone else but themselves. What damages her message is she is so absolutely sure of her opinion that it comes across as arrogance."

Hmmm. I have never known a less arrogant public person. And I can't speak for Dr. Goodall, but as a progressive, I have been happy to take constructive steps to reduce my carbon footprint and cut my consumption in half every five years. I hope someday to contribute to the grid, rather than take from it.

Assumptions make an a** of you and me.

When Ms. Goodall goes home tonight she will turn on the lights and open her refrigerator and if it is cold outside she will turn on the heat. These luxuries come at a price. Liberals want to deprive everyone else but themselves. What damages her message is she is so absolutely sure of her opinion that it comes across as arrogance. A Wall Street executive is also arrogant in his/her point of view. The message is simple. Protect our natural resources and wildlife. Live in harmony with all living creatures. I have learned over many years of living on this earth that bleeding heart liberals are just as dangerous to my liberties as crazy right wing war hungry loonies. Human beings are not viruses and are not to be treated as such. But then viruses have a right to exist too.........don't you think?

Thank you for this heartening interview with Jane Goodall. It give me renewed vigor in teaching environmental science to students who may or may not be listening!

I was very interested to find that Dr. Goodall had written poetry. She represents the relationship between science and religion I found in Dr. Robert Jastrow's "God and the Astronomers".

Ms. Cynthia wrote, "You might be partly right. Cars are only part of the problem in reguard to CO2 emissions. The very buildings we live in seem to be the largest part of the problem. After that comes the consumption of red meat."


You all might want to check the numbers you are calculating.

Actual consumption of electricity was 89 KWH - bill was for 890 KWH thanks to the "multiplier".

Dear Mike:
You might be partly right. Cars are only part of the problem in reguard to CO2 emissions. The very buildings we live in seem to be the largest part of the problem. After that comes the consumption of red meat.

Stop being scared and roll up your sleaves. We have a lot of work to do if we are going to change things in time.

It is simple. Global climate change is NOT caused by our CO2 emissions. Simple math indicates man contributes under 0.1% of the gas. So your insistence about this fact degrades all of your other claims. Also your Global warming sources were caught lying and coercing honest scientists to remain quiet.

I also am concerned about the poisons we put in the environment, but stop pushing the CO2 lie, or we can't support you.

Mike L.

Our individual actions are persuasive to others beginning within our own families.

Posted by: Charles Scudder


I agree completely.

Everything is a "learning experience".

For instance, math understanding and science knowledge are necessary for understanding everything in today's day-to-day "living".

So take the simple tasks, like deciphering your electric bill :-)

My supplier is called "UNS Electric".

The household used 89 KWH of energy from 10-22 to 11-20 for which the bill is $94.36.

To understand how 89 KWH come out to $94.36 will have to be taught over the course of at least a month because everything comes into play - history, math, science, politics and the entire history of the settling of the "west" in the USA.

So that's the bit "family" can play and I am doing my duty in educating everyone to the hows and whys.

Everyone wanted to know about the "multiplier" - why did 89 have to be multiplied by 10 so that the household can be accused of using 890 KWHs?!

Suggestions are to be brought to the table for soomething other than what "school" is "teaching" - the use of a kind of light bulb that a hazmat truck has to be called to haul away the mercury filled bulb.

I guess it is inevitable that people will be deciding on "politics".

Animals operate in the here and now with the "past" of experience part of their "present".

Not sure about anyone else, and maybe I should not be admitting to it because it might mean I am an "alien", but me and the "family" do seem to be able to consider "seven generations into the future", especailly when adding up the $$$ that the electrical bill is getting from an unexplained "multiplier"...

Whose "family" do I contact to discuss the "ideals" of the "future"....?

Preservation of the environment is, at bottom, an individual choice. What we do in our daily lives to reduce pollution, population and consumption cannot be legislated. Nor, can it be commercialized. It is important that each of us become informed about the issue of preservation and take action. The primary sequence of coming to care about the environment is: awareness of the existence of life threatening condition; acceptance of the seriousness of the condition and action to redirect one's own contribution to the condition. Our individual actions are persuasive to others beginning within our own families.

"In wildness is the preservation of nature." Thoreau

In the west the wild mustangs are being eradicated by the United States Government or the Bureau of Land Management because they compete directly with the blood crop or cattle industry, the bloody beef. These horses need our help too. But what can One do? It is very difficult to fight city hall, be it locally or federally, but we can all choose what we eat. To help the wild mustangs of the west, to preserve nature, the wild west, please don't eat beef.

With my love, thank you Jane , and Bill, and Michael for the work your doing, bringing to light or truth again the problems and issues we must all face together, as One. In that unity, that truth of Oneness, equality, is the solution or freedom of us all.

Happy Thanksgiving,

=
MJA

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