TRAC
Interview Transcript

Paul Pozner     (cont)

Question:  More?

Pozner:  But nobody sees it.  It's far away.  There's another part of crime which was typical to the States in the 20's, maybe early 30's.  I am controlling this area, you have to pay to me.  And then I provide you the security because the police has no force to provide you the security.  That was very, very, very front of everything, since '90, '91, '92.  Now it's much worse because the state becomes stronger and these groups have no.  .  .  It's too risky.  It becomes too risky to continue.  They made enough money to legalize themselves and do other work. It goes down.  

Question:  Have you had to deal with it in your business?

Pozner:  Myself, never.  For one reason - because of my social position.  It's too risky to touch me.  Why?  There's so many people much easier to touch, nobody will just protect them.  Nobody will touch me.  Why?  Or course, if I, if I would go through the interests of the big groups, that's different.  But I'm not going through.  I have my own business which is separated from that kind of business.  I don't have underground business; I don't have it.  So, just come to me impose me to say, "Look, you have to pay that to be secure."  It's too dangerous.  What they can get from me? Two thousand bucks, five thousand bucks, for mines, from my business?  And can move in comparison with that?  Makes no sense.

Question:  So?

Pozner:  So, for me, I never had to confront it, but I know that a lot of people had to.  But it's declining, this kind of a criminal business is a, is declining.  So, but what we have, of course, in comparison with the Soviet time, a lot of crimes, like robbery, like violence, like breaking into the houses, like stolen cars, like that's a lot, for two reasons.  One reason, because of what happened of the changes, in the changes.  The property in the country grew up tremendously, and so the poor people had no way to get money, especially the young, who want to live better. They are the source for that kind of crime.  Also, like for the small drug dealers and so on and so forth.  That is the social base for it.  Secondly, the state is not so strong because when you have, it's a totalitarian regime, and everything is controlled, there is less space for crime.  When you have a free society, and when you have to prove that this guy did this, and you have to make a long process, and you have then, of course, there's much more room for this kind.  Because once they get caught, go to the court, the prosecutor says that's his fault.  Okay, five years of prison.  Go.  You can't do it any more.  It's democracy.  So you got the consequences.

Question:  Tell us about the .  .  .

Pozner:  Especially, then, you have to understand that we now try to get the western sense of democracy and their approach to the human rights and all that stuff.  And, here we go much too fast, because, to, 95% of the population does not understand it.  It's another culture.  And, for them the boss is a guy who is the boss.  And for them, the power has to be strong.  And if they're going to kill somebody, it has to be executed.  They have to, it's very oriental.  So you bring them a stuff like that and a guy who will, who normally will be executed for murder here, according to the American law for just 7 years of prison.  The guy, the guy is laughing, not the public.  The guy is laughing.  It is just dumb stupid because he doesn't understand it, with this democracy.  Come on.  It's another cultural approach.  And another, if you want, attitude towards the value of the human life.  It's quite different.  And, the role of the state, what the state must be, the power of the state.  Well, if you judge on a small, small, small, tiny, small part of the society presented by the westernized intelligencia, or intellectuals; it has nothing to do with reality.

Question:  Do you see a development of this more western sensibility about human rights at all?  Is it spreading?

Pozner:  It's spreading, but if the economic stuff, if all that stuff, is spreading, widening, this understanding is going to move very slowly and will take another 50 years and maybe 100 years before, in the morality of the society, because before this, society will go up to this level of understanding.

Question:  Okay, this pleases him.  Okay, talk about what you seek ahead for Russia.  Just to .  .  .  

Pozner:  I see, I see two way of developments, two ways of developments.  That's exactly what I saw when we did with Esalen, this is in diplomacy.  There are two ways of development.  First, the reactionary group on one hand, and the westerners who now say, okay, it's a democratic country, there's no more danger, forget about them, but impose some real--but because they don't have any democracy, just block them again economically and so on.  If that goes, then you have a disaster in this country, like in Georgia, like in over there in Caucasus world like, Yugoslavia or someone.  But if you have death in Russia, you have a real civil war.  And if you have a civil war here, you have a World War III, and that's the end, that's the apocalypse.