Anita Hill discusses overturn of Weinstein’s rape conviction and what it means for #MeToo

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• Amna Nawaz:

  The recent ruling by New York's highest court to overturn Harvey Weinstein's 2020 rape conviction has sent a wave of shock and disappointment through advocates of the MeToo movement.

  The 72-year-old former movie mogul remains in prison on a 16-year sentence for another rape conviction in Los Angeles. But the New York ruling still raises questions about justice for sexual assault survivors.

  For some perspective on all of this, I'm joined now by Anita Hill, chair and president of the Hollywood Commission, founded in 2017 to handle abuse in the entertainment industry. She's a professor of law and social policy at Brandeis University.

  Professor Hill, welcome. Thanks for joining us.

• Anita Hill, Brandeis University:

  Thank you for having me.

• Amna Nawaz:

  So, as you know, that New York court ruling cited errors in allowing testimony about sexual assault allegations that weren't actually part of the criminal case.

  But what was your reaction when you heard that initial ruling?

• Anita Hill:

  Well, the initial ruling, for me, was shocking and, of course, disappointing.

  I think the prosecutors have done a great job of trying to bring context into the conversation and to the processes and the understanding of criminal terms like intent and reasonable doubt. And I'm disappointed, but I also know that this is not the last case that we will be hearing.

  And I'm really excited that the prosecutors are saying that — telling the public that they will retry this case. Just how they do that, I don't know what the strategy is going to be. I don't know. I'm not a prosecutor.

  But since there was evidence that was excluded, I think that they must have a strategy about additional evidence that will give context to jurors and inform jurors about how to interpret the law on sexual assault, whether that evidence is coming from other victims who are not complainants or whether that's coming from experts.

  We do need that evidence.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Mm-hmm.

  This may not be the last case, as you noted, but it was really a milestone case. I mean, Harvey Weinstein was among the most famous, most powerful men in the industry to be credibly accused and then convicted during what we're calling this MeToo movement.

  Do you worry that the overturning of that ruling sets back the movement in some way?

• Anita Hill:

  I do think it may set back the movement in some way. But I would like to focus right now on the individuals who may not come forward, who might, in fact, be too vulnerable to come forward.

  And what we don't — we have to realize is, is that there is a level of vulnerability that any victim will face when they have to address a criminal court. I don't know — I don't know where the movement will head after this.

  But I'm encouraged because of the fact I do see that there is advocacy out there. I think there's outrage. And from that outrage can come new energy into the movement. As opposed to setting it back, it may push us and push us even further than we have been in the last six years.

• Amna Nawaz:

  Let's talk about those last six years.

  As you know, a lot of the focus has been on some of the more famous celebrities who have been wrapped up in the movement. More broadly, though, as we know, women who experience sexual harassment or assault aren't necessarily doing so at the hands of some of the most famous or powerful people in America. It's happening in their everyday lives.

  As you know, the statistics speak for themselves. One out of every five women in their lifetime, according to the National Sexual Violence Resource Center, experience an attempted or a completed rape in their lifetime. Over 80 percent of women report being sexually harassed or assaulted in their lifetimes.

  You talked about the vulnerability of women coming forward. Do you think there could be a chilling impact, that women would be less likely to come forward if someone like Harvey Weinstein can't even be held accountable in this case?

• Anita Hill:

  Well, I'm absolutely sure that some women may decide that it's just not worth the risk to come forward.

  But I do think that we have gone through these periods before. And we have seen that they do — people step up, they come forward, despite the odds being against them. I think we — as a society, though, we have to think about the fact that this trial happened.

  And on one level, it was won, and it may be retried again — retired, and there may be a verdict against Harvey Weinstein again. But also remember that it took scores and scores of women coming forward in order to have — get us this far.

  And I just don't think that they're going to just turn around and stop coming forward after having come as far as we have.

• Amna Nawaz:

  How do you look at that MeToo movement today? I mean, is there any metric you can look at that tells you how far we have come or how much of a difference has been made?

• Anita Hill:

  Well, absolutely.

  You know, you mentioned that I chair the Hollywood Commission, and am president and chair of the Hollywood Commission. We have done surveys, now three surveys, since we have been in existence over the past six years. And what we have found is that people wanted to know more about this problem. They wanted to acknowledge it.

  People in our entertainment workplaces wanted information about how they could press complaints in some instances. But, in more — more often, they wanted to know how they could change their workplaces. They wanted training, bystander training, to help them to be able to become part of the solution to the problem in the workplace.

  And so I think that where we're headed is this increased awareness that can ultimately lead to greater accountability. And so there has been movement. There needs to be more, because we do need to change our processes to keep up with this awareness.

  And some employers are providing more information to their employees and the workers that are in their work force. But, again, we are just not there yet. And I don't think it would be fair to even think that we could overcome a problem that is centuries perhaps, certainly generations in this industry in the making in six years.

  So, we will continue to do the work. And I think, at this point, I can say with some confidence that we can rely on workers in our industries to step up and make the change, because that's the kind of workplace they want. They want the kind of workplace where people do not sexually harass and abuse.

  And they want the kind of workplace where they can be part of a solution to make sure that that doesn't happen.

• Amna Nawaz:

  That is Anita Hill, chair of the Hollywood Commission, professor of law and social policy at Brandeis University.

  Professor Hill, thank you for joining us.

• Anita Hill:

  Thank you.

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