Brazil’s Lula pushes for ‘civilized relationship’ with U.S. amid tensions with Trump

Geoff Bennett:

It is the World Cup of global diplomacy at the United Nations in New York. Hundreds of dignitaries are gathered this week for the U.N. General Assembly.

Tomorrow's first speech to begin the proceedings will come from Brazil's president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, known to everyone simply as Lula. The fate of his predecessor, Jair Bolsonaro, who attempted a coup against Lula two years ago, has become an explosive issue in U.S.-Brazilian relations.

President Trump levied a 50 percent tariff on many Brazilian goods as a penalty for the prosecution of Bolsonaro. He was convicted earlier this month and sentenced to 27 years in prison.

Amna Nawaz sat down with Brazil's president this morning in New York.

Amna Nawaz:

President Lula, welcome back to the "News Hour." Thank you for joining us.

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, Brazilian President (through interpreter): It's a great pleasure to be here to talk with you again.

Amna Nawaz:

I'd love to start with the U.S. tariffs on your country right now, which at 50 percent are among the highest of any level on any country. You have called them misguided and illogical.

How much do you believe that President Trump's anger with the trial and conviction of the former President Jair Bolsonaro, how much did that inform the tariff level on your country?

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (through interpreter): Well, first of all, Amna, it's unbelievable that President Trump would have this kind of behavior with Brazil due to the judgment of a former president that tried to attempt a coup d'etat against the democratic rule of law, that networked and plotted my death and the assassination of myself, the vice president, and the chief justice of the Supreme Court.

So, the explanation of a tariff of 50 percent due to the trial of a former president, this is no explanation for the world's public opinion. And Brazil wants to have a civilized relationship with the U.S. People ask me, do you like President Trump or not? I have never met President Trump, so it's not an issue of whether I like him or not. He doesn't know me either.

What matters is that he's the head of state of the United States, and I'm the head of state in Brazil. And as two heads of state, we have to respect each other, because we were elected democratically by the people of our countries, and we need to give support to these people and to govern them the best way possible.

This is how I expect to keep our relationship with the U.S. And that's why I think it's absurd. I think this tariff is absurd vis-a-vis Brazil.

Amna Nawaz:

You have said that you have no relationship with President Trump. Do I take that to mean you have never spoken to the man? Is that correct?

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (through interpreter): We never talked. We never talked before. We never talked before because he made a choice. In my opinion, that was a mistake. He made a choice of a relationship, building a relationship with Bolsonaro, but not building a friendship with the Brazilian people.

A head of state has to have a relationship with another head of the state, regardless of his political positions. These are two important states, the largest democracies in the Americas, the largest economies in the Americas. And so it's very important for us to have a relationship that would be a civilized relationship.

Amna Nawaz:

If there's no relationship with the U.S. president, I take that to mean there's no negotiation over the tariffs. So what will Brazil do? Will you retaliate with your own tariffs?

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (through interpreter): I can assure you something. We are trying to do things with the most tranquility possible. I don't make decisions with rage.

And at a moment when the United States wishes to negotiate, we will be ready to negotiate. The people I have ready to negotiate are my vice president of the republic, who is also the minister of industry and commerce, my finance minister, my foreign affairs minister. They're all ready to negotiate.

But there's no one on the U.S. side. Every time we try to talk about trade with someone from the U.S., they say, this is not with me. No, this is not a trade issue. This is a political issue.

And so the moment that President Trump wishes to talk politics, I can also talk about politics.

Amna Nawaz:

You have made clear you believe that this is a political issue, not an economic issue, and President Trump has made it clear that he believes Jair Bolsonaro is being politically persecuted in Brazil.

He said publicly he was very unhappy with the conviction. We saw the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, then say that the U.S. government would respond accordingly. The judge who oversaw the case was sanctioned. Are you concerned that the U.S. will take more steps, that you yourself could be sanctioned?

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (through interpreter): First of all, Amna, I doubt that any other country in the world has had a more democratic judicial case that guaranteed to the person that was being charged the presumption of innocence as we did in Brazil.

It's an extraordinary process and one that was respected around the world. There's no court in the world that did not praise the Brazilian judicial system, because there's a rightful defense for all those that are being charged.

So, President Trump cannot put on the table a political issue when we're dealing with heads of state. And I said to President Trump, if he had done what he did in Brazil what happened on the Capitol Hill, he would also be on trial, because the Brazilian law is for all.

Amna Nawaz:

President Lula, I want to make sure I understand what you said? Are you saying you believe that President Trump should have been prosecuted after the attack on the U.S. Capitol after his loss in the 2020 election?

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (through interpreter): I'm not saying that he should have been on judgment, because I do not know the judicial system in the U.S.

I said, if it was in Brazil, if it had happened in Brazil what happened in the Capitol, then he would also go on trial in Brazil.

Amna Nawaz:

We have also seen President Trump go further. He believes that what's happening with Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil will have an impact on your next election. He says that it undermines the ability of Brazil to hold a free and fair election of the presidency in 2026.

I look to get your reaction to that and also if you have decided if you will run again in 2026.

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (through interpreter): Brazil has an electoral justice system that is extraordinary, strong and democratic. Brazil has electronic ballot boxes that are the most perfect system in the world, electronic voting systems.

If we could do any fraud in an electronic ballot, Lula would never have been elected president three times in Brazil. I would never have won the presidential elections because the Brazilian ruling class never wanted me to reach the presidency. I just won the elections because the electronic voting system doesn't allow frauds. It does not allow for you to steal the election. That's why I was elected president of the republic.

Now, if I'm going to be president again, I don't know if I'm going to run again. I'm going to be 80 on October the 27th. I will be 80, and I hope that I have good health that I enjoy today. I wake up every day at 5:30 in the morning and go to the gym and the fitness center for two hours a day because I want to live to 120. If I'm well physically with the same mind-set that I have today, I will run for the presidency, because I will not allow and neither will the Brazilian people allow the fascist far right to return and govern Brazil again.

Amna Nawaz:

I want to ask you about some very serious concerns that you raised in a recent piece that you wrote for The New York Times about weakening democracy around the world.

You said, multilateralism, respect for diversity, nation sovereignty and, "as you wrote, "and the U.S., having appointed itself as the greatest representative of it, this is now fading."

So if the U.S., you believe, is not leading on these fronts, who is?

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (through interpreter): Well, one thing that concerns me, Amna, is that the U.S. for a long time conveyed the message to humanity that it was the symbol of world democracy, it was the guardian of democracy, it was a guardian of freedom.

He puts himself as the emperor, the owner of the world. And he says, President Trump, he says that to protect, the American people, he will tax everybody. But he says this with some untruth. In the Brazilian case, it's important for you to know that the U.S. has a $410 billion trade surplus in the last 15 years, $410 billion. They don't have any trade deficit with us.

Now, in the case of the justice system, he has to know, in Brazil, our justice system is free. The president of the republic cannot interfere in judicial cases. It's an autonomous branch of power, the judicial system. And our democracy, our Constitution says that we should have the independence and harmony between the three branches of power.

And so President Lula cannot interfere in the judgment of the Supreme Court. On Sunday, the Brazilian people went to the streets to demonstrate against amnesty for Bolsonaro, against other inappropriate measures in Congress. The people are paying attention. If the far right parties want to run for elections, they can do that, of course. They're free to do it.

I have run for many elections in the past. I have won elections. I have lost many elections in the past. And that's part of the democratic game. We suffered to get rid of military dictatorship. We don't want any dictatorships anymore.

Amna Nawaz:

President Lula, why do you believe President Trump is so invested in Brazilian politics?

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (through interpreter): I think President Trump needs to have the behavior of a head of state, of a statesman of the largest economy in the world, of the biggest military power in the world, the most technological country in the world.

So I think a country with such greatness and such might has to have much more responsibility. We want to have relations with everybody under equal terms. But what we do not accept is that nobody, nobody, no country in the world interferes in our democracy and our sovereignty.

The moment that the U.S. government is willing to talk with the Brazilian government, I can reassure you that we are ready to talk. Everything can be resolved in a negotiating table. A negotiating table doesn't cost anything. It doesn't destroy a bridge. It doesn't destroy a boat. It doesn't kill a single person. It takes time, but it's better. It's healthier, and it's humanly understood by the whole of society.

Amna Nawaz:

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, the president of Brazil.

Thank you very much for your time, Mr. President.

Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (through interpreter): Thank you very much, Amna. And I hope that, after this interview, the U.S. will open its heart to negotiate with all the countries in the world.