Brooks and Capehart on the politics of COVID-19, Ohio elections, accusations against Cuomo

Judy Woodruff:

This week, the Delta variant presented new challenges for the Biden administration, New York's attorney general found its governor sexually harassed multiple women, and voters went to the polls in two Ohio congressional districts.

And here to sort it all out, we have the analysis of Brooks and Capehart. That is New York Times columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart, columnist for The Washington Post.

It is so good to see both of you here.

Jonathan Capehart:

Good to see you, Judy.

Judy Woodruff:

Thank you. Thank you for joining us on this Friday night.

Jonathan, I'm going to start with you.

Good news today for the Biden administration, good jobs numbers, but we know at the same time every day they are juggling how to handle this COVID pandemic, the Delta variant, deciding how hard to come down on vaccinations, whether to ban, or not, masking.

What are the political risks here for the president? How do you — what are the political calculus — calculi for him?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, I think part of it is, whose side are you on? Are you on the side of the folks who are leery about the vaccines still, the folks who are holding out, the people who don't want to get the vaccine, or are you on the side, those of us who are fully vaccinated and want to get on with the art of living, going back out to restaurants and things, unencumbered?

And I think the president this week dropped on the side of the vaccinated, demanding that people — pleading and demanding that people get vaccinated, and then taking it not, by name, but by inference, to the Republican governor of Florida and what he's doing, in terms of making it difficult for school districts to mandate masks for their children or the localities.

So I think the president is making the calculus. If I can peer into what's happening in the White House, it's that the more people get vaccinated, the sooner we can get back to living a normal life, which has implications for the economy and everything else.

Judy Woodruff:

So, even if there's short-term blowback, David, that it's worth it?

David Brooks:

Well, I don't think mandating vaccination is — would be worth it.

I mean, I support vaccination all day long. But we — this is America, and America is a country with strong distrust for central authority. I think, if we mandated it from Washington, it would generate enormous blowback among those who are not vaccinated and not help the cause.

I think getting private insurers and schools and others to insist on vaccination is much safer. It's decentralized. People are presumably going to workplaces and colleges and schools that they like, and so they have a little more trust.

And so I think that's a smarter way to do it, without generating so much blowback. I really liked what Andy Slavitt said earlier in the program, to emphasize those 25 million who have no principled objection, and make it easier for them.

If that could take us up to 80 percent vaccination, that would be a really significant achievement, without creating even more of a cultural war around this thing.

Judy Woodruff:

And — but continuing to watch, because we don't know what this Delta variant is going to do, of course.

Do want to ask you about the congressional races this week in Ohio, two different congressional districts, two different primaries.

In the one district in Cleveland, Jonathan, you had — Marcia Fudge's district — you had mainstream Democrat win pretty persuasively against a more, shall we say, left-wing progressive Democrat. And this is at a time when a lot of people are asking, how much influence do the more — most progressive members of the Democratic Party have right now?

So how do you read what happened?

Jonathan Capehart:

Well, the way I read what happened is that the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party doesn't hold any sway when it comes to these special elections.

I'm reminded of speaker Tip O'Neill saying all politics is local. We have a tendency to nationalize every congressional race, every local race, and forget about the fact that the people who are actually running, they're not running national races. They're running local races.

And when you look at the race between Shontel Brown and Nina Turner, you have to remember that President Biden won that district with 79.8 percent of the vote. And so you have one candidate who's the local chair of the Democratic Party and another candidate who has said some unspeakable things about what it would mean to her if she voted for Joe Biden.

And so you just put that out there, and Nina Turner thinking she would actually win that race, I think, was laughable.

David Brooks:

Yes, though she was leading early, apparently.

Yes, I'm about to nationalize it.

(LAUGHTER)

David Brooks:

So, you go back to 2019, AOC is riding high, the Green New Deal. The party looks like it's shifting quite rapidly to the left, and they think they have got a lot of running room there.

I recall, in one of the presidential debates, basically, people were asked, would you open the borders, decriminalize, and most of the candidates raising their hand said, yes, I would do it. And I was like, where is this party going?

But then look at what happens. Joe Biden wins the election against 17 people, all of whom were to his left. And a lot of people think that defund the police, some excesses on the left cost them down-ballot races.

And then we have had a bunch of races in the last several months where the — I don't want to say moderates, I want to say party regulars beat progressives. And so the — you have got the New York mayoral race, the Virginia gubernatorial race, three House races in which Ohio is one.

And, partly, it's moderate left. But, really, it's, how do we do change? Do we do change within the party, within the system, or do we try to disrupt the system? And I think it's pretty clear the base of the Democratic Party says, we believe in our party, we want to do change within the system, which is sort of the Biden hymnal.

Judy Woodruff:

Which is — as David said, this is where the last few — the New York mayor's race, other pieces of evidence that the party is not as far left as some had argued that it was.

Jonathan Capehart:

Right.

And, also, keep in mind that the base of the Democratic Party, primarily, it's the African-American voter. And African-American voters, I think a lot of people tend to think that, oh, they're Black, therefore, they're progressive, and not realizing that, no, we Black voters, we're actually more pragmatic.

What are you going to do? How are you going to make my life better? How are you going to make my community safer? And when it's looked through that lens, Shontel Brown's win shouldn't be as surprising as it was for a lot of people.

Judy Woodruff:

And just quickly, the other Ohio primary race, the Trump-endorsed candidate, Michael Carey…

David Brooks:

Right.

Judy Woodruff:

… David, emerged.

I guess not a huge surprise. Donald Trump has influence.

(LAUGHTER)

David Brooks:

Yes, especially when it's a 12-person race, and they're all sort of unknown. So, the Trump guy is going to have a huge advantage.

I think it's still very hard to win a Republican primary if Donald Trump is not on your side. It's impossible if you're against Donald Trump.

But I'd add one thing, which is that 17 Republican senators endorsed the infrastructure bill that Donald Trump opposed. So I think, on Donald Trump, you can't cross Trump. On culture war issues, you can't cross Trump.

But, on policy, you can cross Trump. And the party is more flexible or confused about what it believes on policy matters than it was five years ago.

Jonathan Capehart:

And to — just a slight spin on that, and that is the Trump candidate won in this race. The Trump candidate didn't win, I believe it was in a special election in Texas.

But in that Texas race, the thing I say to keep an eye on is, Trump didn't win, but Trumpism won in that race. And so, instead of looking at who Donald Trump has endorsed, look at how closely the candidates are to what Donald Trump actually says he believes in.

Judy Woodruff:

How closely they're aligned.

The last thing I want to raise with both of you is this really massive development out of New York state, David, and that is this damning report by the New York state attorney general about Governor Cuomo, that he — just lots of detail about how he treated harassed 11 separate women who worked for him and a hostile climate, to put it mildly, in his office.

David Brooks:

Yes, well, a powerful pathetic man is a dangerous thing. And he's both those things.

And you read the report, the grabbing, the toxic environment, the screaming, making women do pushups, saying, get me a girlfriend, I need a girlfriend who can handle pain, like, it's all beyond belief.

And will he step down? Well, obviously, he should. It's morally disgraceful. He needs to — he needs to work on a lot of stuff, and sort of get his soul in order. But he apparently has no other life. And so he's just hanging in there.

I think it's even more pathetic the way he's hanging in there, because he's basically putting his job over any hope for his own character. And that's just — well, those are not good values.

Judy Woodruff:

People are asking, is this somebody who's going to resign, or is he going to go through impeachment, which the New York Assembly appears ready to do, to start proceedings?

Jonathan Capehart:

And, as we sit here right now, it looks like he's going to go through with it.

I would add a third characteristic. He's a man with no friends. Andrew Cuomo hasn't had friends in Albany in a very long time, before this happened. And yet, still, a majority of the Assembly would vote to impeach him. He has no friends. The head of the Democratic Party says, you must resign, who was one of his closest political allies.

And if he does get impeached, the other thing to keep in mind is that the lieutenant governor, once those proceedings start, Andrew Cuomo is technically no longer governor. Lieutenant Governor Hochul is the one who is the acting governor of the state.

Judy Woodruff:

Right.

Jonathan Capehart:

That would be unbelievably pathetic.

Judy Woodruff:

How does something like this, David, go on for as long as it's apparently gone on? I mean, people are now saying — we interviewed a woman the other day who worked for him 20 years ago, was his press secretary when he was the secretary of housing and urban development, who said he was the same person then.

How does something like this go on?

David Brooks:

One, power of intimidation, which is really strong.

Two, a climate where there aren't that many women at the top. So it's a male culture, and people are willing to look the other way. Third, Albany is a little isolated. And the governor has a lot of power to intimidate a lot of people throughout the community.

And so — but the lesson of — and then just what we have learned, since MeToo is that it — well, it went on for 4,000 years. And so the fact that it's still dragging on in various places shouldn't surprise us. It was the norm in a lot of offices around America and around the world for centuries and centuries.

Judy Woodruff:

What's your sense of how somebody can get away with something like this for so long?

Jonathan Capehart:

People turned a blind eye. People pretended it didn't happen. People felt powerless.

Another thing is, in Albany, in New York, the Cuomo name is a big name. It is a powerful name. It's an historic name. I remember watching his father, Governor Mario Cuomo, give the speech at the Democratic Convention. What year was that, 1984?

David Brooks:

Yes, somewhere around there.

(CROSSTALK)

Jonathan Capehart:

1984. I remember being the nerdy kid sitting, watching this speech, and listening to him and realizing, those are values — those are values I believe in.

I'm a center-left person because of Mario Cuomo. To see what his son has done to that family named is just sad.

Judy Woodruff:

I actually covered that convention. It was a mesmerizing speech.

But I just — just to wrap this up, David, I think a lot of people are watching men and women and saying, how much of this goes on in American political life?

David Brooks:

Yes, people go into politics out of vanity, out of power. Some of them are remarkable people, and they want to serve the country.

There are a lot of emotionally damaged people in politics, who have — as Jon said, they know how to suck up, and they know how to kick down. They don't have horizontal friendships. And it's not the norm, but it's many people we know in this profession. And so they're lonely and they get more pathetic, they get more needy, and they eventually treat everyone around them, men, but especially women, as objects, who do not have feelings on the other side of the relationship.

And that's just a sort — a single sort of person, not all people, but some of the people that politics attracts.

Judy Woodruff:

Well, it's — we don't know how it's going to end. We think we know. But we will wait and see, but what a sad and terrible picture that emerged this week.

David Brooks, Jonathan Capehart, thank you both.

Jonathan Capehart:

Thank you.

David Brooks:

Thank you.