Extremism scholar analyzes influence of rhetoric on political violence

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• Lisa Desjardins:

  Good evening. I'm Lisa Desjardins. John Yang is away. The assassination of American conservative leader Charlie Kirk is drawing reaction and concern around the world. In London, a massive crowd today, estimated at over 100,000 people, gathered in a march organized by anti-immigration activists who remembered Kirk as part of the event.

  This as the 22-year-old suspect in the killing is being held without bond due to appear in court Tuesday as the investigation into the shooter's motives goes on, Kirk's widow Erika spoke for the first time last night, vowing that his movement will not only continue, but will grow.

  Erika Kirk, Widow of Charlie Kirk: You have no idea the fire that you have ignited within this wife. The cries of this widow will echo around the world like a battle cry.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  Concerns about security for political figures and of political violence in general continue to rise. Cynthia Miller-Idriss is the director of the Polarization and Extremism Research Innovation Lab at American University and she joins me now.

  Cynthia, looking at the pattern of violence in recent years, what fits into that pattern from this and what might be new?

• Cynthia Miller-Idriss, American University:

  Well, we've been seeing rising political violence, rising hate fueled violence for several years now. We're at a level that we haven't seen since the 1970s and over the last couple of years in the U.S. in particular, we've seen rising assassination attempts and assassinations as a tactic within that political extremism. And that's also been happening overseas.

  So, you know, I think it's — it was to be expected that political assassinations would continue if weren't able to tamp down the rhetoric.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  To be expected to hear those words is really quite stunning. But you are the one doing the research, and you're talking about the rhetoric, which is a big part of the conversation right now. And how much is rhetoric responsible for political violence, and especially that moment where someone isn't just expressing anger, as we see online everywhere, kind of a toxic culture online.

  How much does political rhetoric influence someone to move from saying words to doing something violent? Or does it?

• Cynthia Miller-Idriss:

  Yeah, I mean, one of the things we'd seen, and I said this a year ago after Trump, the first assassination attempt against President Trump, was that it was only a matter of time with the kind of rhetoric that we see, that were going get to political assassination.

  So, you know, that's what I mean by expected. It sounds very cynical, but it was very predictable. You know, shocking but not surprising is the way that I think of it.

  When you have political rhetoric that consistently positions us versus them in existential terms, when people online are celebrating the assassination of a United Healthcare executive, for example, that kind of violence being valorized, not just seen as a last type of solution, but as an acceptable or even preferable one.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  There was also celebration online of this assassination. And at the same time, we also know there are some supporters of Charlie Crook who are using more and more sort of warlike kind of talk.

  After a tragedy like this, there are all sorts of ways that people deal with the grief. But where do you think we are right now in the rhetoric about this event?

• Cynthia Miller-Idriss:

  I think we're at a really very risky moment. I will say that the elected officials rhetoric, the bipartisan and mostly bipartisan condemnation of the violence and of, you know, the idea that no one deserves to be shot, no matter how much you disagree with them, I think has been very clear.

  But among ordinary people, especially young people on social media, we have seen much more divisive rhetoric, both calling for civil war and celebrating the death of the killing of someone with whom people often vehemently disagreed.

  And so I think one of the things I've been urging people is to not just look to political leaders for solutions, but look across the dinner table. That's a moment to engage with dialogue and really try to walk back that rhetoric.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  One thing I've noticed in the past few days is a rise in conservatives doxing or publishing the personal information of people — individuals who are not remotely famous, who may have in some cases celebrated the death of Charlie Kirk. As you said, that's something obviously deplorable to do.

  But some — in some cases, maybe not gone that far, just offended some folks. We spoke to someone from Wired magazine who's covering this, talking about specifically this moment.

• David Gilbert, Wired:

  I've spoken to multiple people this week who have had, you know, their employment terminated as a result of what they posted online. In some cases, they were celebrating Charlie Kirk's death. In other cases, it was much, much less than that. And they were just making points about device of your society.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  This has been not just about shaming people, but about affecting their lives. And in some case, we know there's been death threats as well. I wonder what you make of this tactic. Not just something a few people are doing, but people are collecting databases to do this now.

• Cynthia Miller-Idriss:

  Yeah, doxing is a very dangerous tactic from. We've seen it from the left and from the right. And what we've seen over the years is that often when someone is doxxed their personal information, leaked, there have been cases where people show up at the wrong address where they used to live, let's say, and threaten a kind of innocent family who lives there. You're putting at risk family members, children, others who might live at that address.

  So, you know, one of the things I would really urge people to do is avoid that temptation, whatever the motivation to look for accountability. This is a moment to allow the rule of law, to allow social media policies to allow to handle that.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  In the few seconds we have left here. We've seen these moments in history before where we have assassination attempts happening over a decade or two decades kind of thing before.

  But I wonder, you mentioned people need to talk to each other across the dinner table. What else gets the country out of moments like this?

• Cynthia Miller-Idriss:

  Well, one of the things we really need is more serious and systematic investments in prevention, which is something that other countries have. We in this country tend to rely on after the fact increases in security, better barricades, better security detectors. And that's expensive and it requires a perfection every time.

  But you can also invest in helping people be less persuaded by propaganda online, less persuaded by manipulative efforts that say violence is the solution and help people know how to recognize warning signs and know where to get more help.

• Lisa Desjardins:

  Cynthia Miller-Idriss, thank you so much for joining us.

• Cynthia Miller-Idriss:

  Thanks for having me.

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