Former AG Alberto Gonzales on the rule of law and Trump’s willingness to test its limits

Amna Nawaz:

We turn now to our series On Democracy, where we hear a range of perspectives on how government should function, what's led to this moment in American history, and where the country goes next.

Tonight, we will focus on the rule of law and President Trump's apparent willingness to test its limits.

I spoke earlier with Alberto Gonzales, dean of Belmont University's Law School. He served as attorney general and White House counsel under the George W. Bush administration and is the only person to ever hold both positions.

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, welcome to the "News Hour." Thanks for joining us.

Alberto Gonzales, Former U.S. Attorney General:

I'm happy to do so.

Amna Nawaz:

So, even though you are a Republican, in the last election, you did choose to come forward and endorse Kamala Harris, and saying so at the time, you said Donald Trump is — quote — "the most serious threat to the rule of law in a generation."

Just a month ago, you said, "What we're seeing today is even more than I had imagined."

So, 100 days into this second Trump presidency, what is your assessment? Is the rule of law safe? Is it protected in this country?

Alberto Gonzales:

Well, one of the things that's important for people to understand is that the rule of law constrains power. And there are other things that constrain power, such as norms and institutions, customs, things of that nature.

And people who want to exercise powers without restrictions, they want to eliminate or at least weaken those constraints. And so, obviously, it seems to me that the rule of law is under some serious stress.

Amna Nawaz:

Well, the president has lawyers around him, right? He has his general counsel in the White House. He has the attorney general who's advising him on this. And even when you were in the White House under President George W. Bush, you were accused of enabling an abuse of executive power for some of the legal arguments you crafted regarding the war on terror.

So is it just true that every White House crafts the legal arguments that it needs to move its agenda forward?

Alberto Gonzales:

I think what we're seeing here is the president surrounding himself with loyalists who give maybe an extra push towards trying to do what facilitates what the president wants to have happen.

So their interpretation is one that perhaps you and I might — you and others that I served with might disagree with. But, nonetheless, it is an attempt by lawyers. You're absolutely right. Lawyers are involved, because the president, quite frankly, most times isn't a lawyer and certainly doesn't have the time to sit down and go through the law books.

And that's why he does take advice from lawyers. But the lawyers that he's choosing, it appears to me, have a fierce loyalty to him. And I was very loyal to President Bush. Robert F. Kennedy was very loyal to his brother John F. Kennedy. But, nonetheless, hopefully, you have lawyers in place that make a good faith attempt to interpret the law and are honest with the president saying, you don't have the authority to do this.

Amna Nawaz:

I hear you saying, hopefully, that's the case. But is that the case in this instance with this president and this team?

Alberto Gonzales:

Yes, sometimes, lawyers disagree about the interpretation of laws. And I think what this president is trying to do is surround himself with people who he believes will be loyal to him, will give him the advice that will allow him to carry out the agenda for which he campaigned on.

And so, again, I — unless you're there in the room and you're with the lawyers and the president, you're not really sure what advice is being given to the president.

Amna Nawaz:

There's also the question about whether or not the administration is in compliance with court orders from judges. There's the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, a Maryland man who the administration said they mistakenly deported to El Salvador.

We saw the president last night say that he could bring Abrego Garcia back if he wanted to, but he is not. Do you believe that this administration is flouting a judge's orders in this case?

Alberto Gonzales:

Well, before last night, I think one might have legitimate questions as to whether or not there was a flouting.

A judge did order the administration to facilitate a transfer. And last night, the president, from what I have read, appeared to concede that he did have the authority to simply ask for this individual to be returned, which is going to raise a question in the eyes of the judge, well, then have you asked and why haven't you asked?

You have been ordered to facilitate the return of this individual. And so I think that might have been a sort of…

(Crosstalk)

Amna Nawaz:

If I may, he seems to be saying he's not asked and that he doesn't want to. That's why. Does that mean that he's ignoring the judge's order?

Alberto Gonzales:

Well, again, I think what you're going to — given this new statement by the president, you're probably going to see a request by the judge asking those very same questions. And we will see what the administration says or does.

And, at that point, I'm often — I have been asked many times, when will we have a constitutional crisis? In my judgment, we will have a constitutional crisis when the Supreme Court of the United States commands the administration to do something pursuant to the Constitution within a certain period of time, and the president not doing so.

Amna Nawaz:

Attorney General, you called Donald Trump the most serious threat to the rule of law in a generation. Based on the norm-breaking and the rule-bending we have seen so far, are you worried that you can't get it back once it's gone?

Alberto Gonzales:

You know, it takes a while to build up a cathedral like the rule of law. It doesn't take very long to destroy it.

And so it can be destroyed, like a cathedral can be destroyed, but it can be built back up with the right kind of leadership and dedication. So do I think we will get it back? I'm hopeful we will get it back once we have changes perhaps in leadership in Washington, and not just in the White House, I think Congress has been missing in action.

I don't know what they're doing. They're doing nothing, I guess is the right answer. So once we have new leadership in Washington, I think, yes, it can be built up. And I'm hopeful that the institutions that exist today, those norms that have not been torn down yet, I hope they will continue to provide a check on the excised — the excess use of power.

Amna Nawaz:

That is former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales joining us tonight.

Sir, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

Alberto Gonzales:

Thanks for having me.