Former NATO chief on what’s at stake as U.S. debates military aid for Ukraine

Amna Nawaz:

As we reported earlier, critical aid to Ukraine is still being held up in ongoing negotiations over funding for border security.

Earlier today, I spoke with former NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen about what this means as Russia's war in Ukraine enters its third year.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the "NewsHour."

Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Former NATO Secretary-General:

Thank you for having me.

Amna Nawaz:

So I want to ask you about U.S. lawmakers' inability so far to reach a deal on immigration that would allow Ukraine aid to move forward.

You have said previously you would advise Democrats to accommodate Republicans on the border, cut a deal, get the aid flowing. I know you're meeting with House Freedom Caucus members tomorrow. What's your advice to them?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen:

My advice would be to do what it takes to ensure that Ukraine wins the war against Russia, because it is detrimental for the U.S. national security interests if Russia wins this war.

We cannot allow Putin any success in Ukraine.

Amna Nawaz:

There's a very real chance that former President Donald Trump will be the Republican nominee, that he could win in November. If aid for Ukraine does not move forward under the Biden administration, do you believe it could move forward under President Trump?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen:

Yes, we don't know. As a point of departure, I'm skeptical.

Amna Nawaz:

When you look forward, though, into the months ahead and what could happen here in the U.S., you have said that even if Mr. Trump doesn't win, you said his nomination alone could be a geopolitical catastrophe.

Why?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen:

Because I have seen that the fact that he is around, the fact that he probably will be nominated as the Republican presidential candidate, already, that has changed the way international actors, they take decisions.

They try to hedge their bets. And, in Europe, for instance, there is a great concern that a new administration might be more inward-looking, more isolationist, that they will leave Europe behind. I don't think that would be in the interest of the United States to weaken its alliance across the Atlantic.

On the contrary, we should strengthen the transatlantic alliance.

Amna Nawaz:

Can I ask you about what we have seen in the U.S. public, though, which is some decline in support for continuing the same level of U.S. funding for Ukraine, and specifically this idea that European nations should be doing more?

Should Europe be bearing more of the security burden, especially when it comes to Ukraine?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen:

Yes. And we are doing so.

Latest figures demonstrate that Europe has now overtaken the U.S. when it comes both to military assistance and direct financial assistance.

Amna Nawaz:

That was late last year, right?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen:

We are not — yes, we are not speaking about pledges. We are speaking about real money.

When it comes to the military, according to those figures, Europe has contributed 54 billion euros, the U.S. 44 billion euros. I appreciate that the Europeans contribute more. They should — we should do so. But it cannot replace a continued U.S. assistance. We need both. We need sophisticated weapons delivered by the United States, and we need more weapons.

We need to lift all self-imposed restrictions on weapon deliveries to Ukraine. So the mantra that we will help Ukraine for as long as it takes, it should be replaced with, we will give to Ukraine all it takes to win the war.

Amna Nawaz:

There's been a lot of criticism that, had the U.S. and NATO allies done that sooner, the war might have been over by now, Ukraine would be in a different position. It took 300 days into the war for the U.S., for example, to provide long-range missiles President Zelenskyy had been asking for.

Was that a mistake?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen:

Yes, it's really — I mean, it's a sad story to see our hesitation. And the reason why the Ukrainian counteroffensive has been so difficult and so modest is that we took much too long time to take necessary decisions.

You cannot win a war by an incremental, step-by-step approach. You have to overwhelm and surprise your adversary. We failed to do that.

Amna Nawaz:

Can I ask what impact the Israel-Hamas war has had on all of this? I mean, there's been the argument that the U.S. and the world cannot equally provide support to two ongoing wars.

And the idea that Putin banked on the West losing interest or being distracted seems to be now coming true. What's — what have you seen to be the impact of that war?

Anders Fogh Rasmussen:

Well, we have seen how Putin has exploited the situation.

After the outbreak of the Israeli-Hamas war, we have seen an intensified Russian offensive against Ukraine. A swarm of drones have hit civilian targets, civilian infrastructure in Ukraine. So, no doubt that the war between Israel and Hamas serves the interest of Putin.

And, overall, what you are seeing is an emerging — what I would call an emerging axis of autocracies, led by China, but joined by Russia, Iran, North Korea. And this is exactly what is at stake. We have to counter this axis of autocracies. And we should never forget that the world's democracies represent more than 60 percent of the global economy, of the global GDP.

So, if we stand together, if we cooperate, then it will represent a formidable force that will create a lot of respect in Beijing.

Amna Nawaz:

Former NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen, thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure to speak with you.

Anders Fogh Rasmussen:

You're welcome.