The barriers women still face in the legal profession decades after O’Connor’s appointment

Geoff Bennett:

Sandra Day O'Connor, the first woman to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court, lay in repose at the court today, giving members of the public a chance to pay their respects. The former justice died earlier this month at the age of 93.

The court has changed substantially since O'Connor joined the bench more than 40 years ago. And Justice Sonia Sotomayor, one of the four women currently serving, paid tribute to her predecessor's barrier-breaking role.

Sonia Sotomayor, U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice:

For the four of us and for so many others of every background and aspiration, Sandra was a living example that women could take on any challenge, could more than hold their own in spaces dominated by men, and could do so with grace.

Geoff Bennett:

While the number of women on the court today is perhaps most notable, John Yang looks at the many other ways the legal profession has and has not changed in O'Connor's lifetime.

John Yang:

When Sandra Day O'Connor applied for a job at a big law firm after graduating near the top of her Stanford law school class, a firm offered her employment as a secretary. While that was 70 years ago, surveys and studies show that progress for women at big firms is slow, especially in the top ranks.

A 2022 survey found that only 25 percent of law firm partners are women, and women make up 37 percent of all practicing attorneys. What's been accomplished since 1981, when O'Connor shattered the glass ceiling, becoming the first woman on the Supreme Court, and how much still needs to be done?

Laura Zagar is managing partner at the San Francisco office of the law firm Perkins Coie.

Laura, I know that, in your office in San Francisco, that a majority of the partners are women, but that is the exception, rather than the rule. How would you assess where the legal profession is now in terms of gender disparity?

Laura Zagar, Perkins Coie:

Generally, the industry, we're falling far short of where we should be.

Just to put it into perspective, I graduated with a nearly balanced class in 2002 at UCLA School of Law. And we're still in an industry where, as you cited the statistics, we're still far below 50 percent in the partnership ranks at the top law firms throughout the country.

We are definitely an anomaly. We have 62 percent women partners in our office, but that's twice as much as the average throughout our peer firms and within our firm and other offices. So we still have a far ways to go, both translating — we get 50 percent of our incoming attorneys are women, but we're not translating that into getting them into the partnership ranks and into the leadership ranks.

John Yang:

What are the obstacles that women face in big law firms?

Laura Zagar:

I think there are the ones that everyone expects, which are getting through to the promotion, getting the oppor — a lot of the time, people focus on women being the primary caretakers for children being an obstacle. And that's certainly one of them.

But we're also seeing the same trends with women that do not have children. So it shows that there's more going on than might meet the eye. I think there are problems that we just know through science that people do. They tend to bring up and are attracted to working with people that are like them.

So, sometimes, the people who get the best opportunities are the men, not necessarily the women, regardless if they have children or not. So I think it's — it's — there's a lot of layers and dynamics into this situation. And it's important for firm leaders to look at that full dynamic to make sure that we get parity at the leadership end of the spectrum.

John Yang:

And what are you doing at your office of Perkins Coie that other officers could emulate and try to achieve the same sort of results you are?

Laura Zagar:

I think most firms are approaching this as a recruitment issue at the junior ranks.

And so I think they think, if we recruit 50 percent women, eventually, that will happen at the partnership ranks. But what's happening is, they're getting through all of the hurdles to get to partnership. We see women self-selecting out, often to go to in-house roles or to leave the legal profession altogether, because they don't see a future for themselves.

What we have done here in San Francisco at Perkins Coie is focus on the recruitment, retention, and success of our women partners. And what we have seen is, that's important to have our junior associates come in, see role models, see success, and realize that they too can be promoted and be successful.

So I think the legal profession's focus needs to stop being on recruitment of the most junior attorneys and promoting the success and opportunities of the women already in the partnership and focus and target their lateral recruitment on partner — successful women partners, because we need the role models for these women who are coming up through the ranks that there is indeed a future for them in this profession.

John Yang:

Talk about role models, to what extent was Justice O'Connor a role model when she became the first woman? And now we have — of course, we have since had Justice Ginsburg, Sotomayor, Kagan, Barrett, and now Jackson.

What's the effect of having women at the top level of this profession?

Laura Zagar:

I still remember — I won't say how old I was, quite young.

(Laughter)

Laura Zagar:

But I still remember Justice O'Connor being confirmed. I mean, it was one of the first moments in my life that I thought I could do this. Like, I could be an attorney. I could be a judge, instead of thinking I could be one of the careers that women were expected to go into, nursing, teaching, et cetera.

And by no means do I think that is — those are — I come from a long line of nurses and teachers. But it's important that we have our brainpower and our capabilities across all professions, including law. So, Justice O'Connor really was the first moment in my life that I thought, wow, I could do this.

And seeing Justice Ginsburg come in and say things like then we could have nine women on the Supreme Court were just mind-blowing. And so I think it's just so critical to not just see the judges on the Supreme Court become increasingly women, but judges across all benches, the rest of the federal bench, and then on state courts as well.

So, my first experience in law was actually interning for a woman trial court judge in Ohio. And I learned a lot from there, and it seemed achievable because she was able to do it. So the role model and Justice O'Connor's contribution to women in this profession is — can't be quantified.

John Yang:

Laura Zagar of the law firm Perkins Coie, thank you very much.

Laura Zagar:

Thank you.