‘We have earned our spots’: Facing Trump ban, trans troops reflect on military service

Amna Nawaz:

Today is the deadline for the estimated 4,200 active-duty transgender military members to accept what the Defense Department calls voluntary separation. Those who volunteer to leave may be eligible for separation pay. Transgender troops who don't leave voluntarily will be kicked out, and whether they get separation pay remains to be seen.

Earlier this week, Nick Schifrin spoke to two transgender servicemen about the choice they face to leave the service or stay and fight it out in the courts.

Nick Schifrin:

In one of President Trump's first executive actions, he declared that transgender service members corrode military effectiveness and — quote — "Adoption of a gender identity inconsistent with an individual sex conflicts with a soldier's commitment to an honorable, truthful, and disciplined lifestyle."

Now, following legal battles, the Defense Department is moving forward to expel service members — quote — "with a current diagnosis or history of or exhibiting symptoms consistent with gender dysphoria," which is officially defined as six months of marked incongruence between a person's experience and assigned gender.

Last month, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth put the ban this way, criticizing what he calls previous policies that undermine military readiness.

Pete Hegseth, U.S. Defense Secretary:

We are leaving wokeness and weakness behind, no more pronouns, no more climate change obsession, no more emergency vaccine mandates, no more dudes in dresses. We're done with that (Expletive Deleted).

(Applause)

Nick Schifrin:

For a perspective, we turn to Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell, who has been in the Navy since 2011 and is an intelligence analyst. He's choosing to leave the military ahead of the deadline.

And 2nd Lieutenant Nic Talbott is a platoon leader of a military police unit in the Army Reserve. He joined the Army a little over a year ago and is suing the government over its policy and is staying in the military, despite the deadline, and therefore faces involuntary separation.

Thanks very much, both of you. And I should say ahead of time that the opinions you're going to express, I know, are personal opinions and not those of the Defense Department or your military services.

Ryan Goodell, let me start with you.

You are a cryptologic technician collection, which is to say you collect and analyze foreign communications. Why are you taking the separation? And was this a hard decision?

Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell, U.S. Navy:

Yes, absolutely. It has been an incredibly difficult decision.

Honestly, seeing the opportunities and just seeing the outside, right, because I have been in the military for almost 14 years, seeing the outside, I was like, you know what, I actually think that I'm going to put a little bit of control into this, what feels like an uncontrollable situation.

Nick Schifrin:

The military calls what you're choosing to do voluntary separation. Is that what it feels like?

Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell:

Certainly not. It definitely doesn't feel voluntary.

So I reenlisted back in December for a reenlistment bonus, and clearly stated in the memo I may have to pay that back. And that…

Nick Schifrin:

If you were to choose not to leave by the deadline?

Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell:

Correct. If I chose the involuntary route, I would be liable to pay that back. And so that felt pressure enough to help steer me in that — quote, unquote — "voluntary direction."

Nick Schifrin:

Nic Talbott, you enlisted as a reservist last March and you became an officer in January, but you have actually wanted to join the military for a long time. Why?

2nd Lt. Nicolas Talbott, U.S. Army Reserve: Joining the military is something that I have felt compelled to do for the majority of my life.

And as I got older and became more experienced and really gained some expertise in some areas that are critical to what the military does, that calling to serve has just grown in me.

Nick Schifrin:

And, at this point, you're the lead plaintiff in the first case against the policy. The judge sided with you, but ultimately this policy is going forward because of ruling by the Supreme Court.

Why did you choose to sue and why are you choosing to fight to stay in the military?

2nd Lt. Nicolas Talbott: So this was my second time being involved in a lawsuit challenging this type of a ban. Back in 2017, I was one of the plaintiffs in Stockman v. Trump.

So, this time around, becoming reinvolved in pursuing this fight was really a no-brainer for me. And now that I have been given the chance to go out and meet the marks and exceed the standards, I have proven that I am able to be here and able to keep up with other people and put on the uniform and do my job every single day.

I can't, in good conscience, just give it up, especially with no benefit or incentive to do so. As a reservist, as somebody who's so new to the military, there is nothing about the so-called voluntary process that benefits me in any way, shape, or form.

Nick Schifrin:

Ryan Goodell, as I said, the Defense Department makes this argument, that individuals who have a current diagnosis or history of or exhibit symptoms consistent with gender dysphoria are incompatible with the high mental and physical standards necessary for military service.

What do you say to that argument?

Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell:

I would say that, honestly, I have become more mentally sound since transitioning, because, before I had a label, right, for what I was feeling on the inside, I was essentially battling a war within myself.

I would be a rock star at work, doing great things, getting high marks on all my evaluations, but then I would come home and the voices inside my head would get very loud and tell me that you're living a lie, this isn't who you really are. And I could hide that at work, because, in the military, you're a uniform, right?

The Navy colors are blue and gold, and that's all you see. Realizing and pursuing my truth has made me more mentally stable. My depression is gone. I'm a better leader. I can think more clearly, I don't have those nagging self-doubt moments anymore. I know who I am, and I lead very effectively. And that's why, in part, I was chosen to be a chief petty officer.

Nick Schifrin:

You received your gender dysphoria diagnosis in June 2018. You started transitioning in December 2019. What support did the military give you, whether it was the institution or your fellow service members?

Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell:

My fellow service members have been nothing but supportive. I draw my strength from them. They're the reason I serve every day. And they have just been incredible.

They don't allow folks to look at me the wrong way. If they hear somebody misgendering or using — saying anything disparaging, they're pretty quick to knock it out. And I have had that support up and down the chain of command.

Nick Schifrin:

When you hear Nic sticking it out, basically, wanting to stay in until they force him out, what's your response to that?

Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell:

It's incredibly selfless. And I think that comes from a lot of self-discipline to be willing to put yourself on the line. And that's what we need in the military.

2nd Lt. Nicolas Talbott: We transgender service members are living proof that we belong in the uniforms that we have worked so hard for. We have earned our spots. We have earned our ranks. We have earned our awards. And our service should speak for itself.

Nick Schifrin:

You began your transition in 2012. What was it like to serve having already transitioned?

2nd Lt. Nicolas Talbott: Nobody that I have served with thus far has known that I am transgender unless I have told them or they have seen it posted on the Internet somewhere.

At the end of the day, what our fellow service members care about is whether or not we can put on our uniforms and perform our duties.

Nick Schifrin:

A senior defense official told reporters last month, the primary means of identification for those who do not voluntarily separate will be through a service member's periodic health assessment, which tracks whether the service member's health is — quote — "consistent with future service."

You, of course, are very public, so your situation is perhaps different. But what is your sense of how the military will identify people who do not choose to separate?

2nd Lt. Nicolas Talbott: As of now, unfortunately, it's not entirely clear what that process is going to look like for us.

Nick Schifrin:

What are you going to do if you're forced to leave?

2nd Lt. Nicolas Talbott: I will figure something out. I am the kind of person that, when one door closes in front of me, I look for another door to open up.

I do like to emphasize the fact that this fight is not over. We still have cases going on. We have cases going through the courts right now, and this is not the end. In the grand scheme of things, sometimes, you lose a few battles here and there and you still win the war at the end. And that's what we're facing right now.

Nick Schifrin:

Ryan Goodell, I see you shaking your head. What are you going to do when you leave?

Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell:

So, I would love to take advantage of the significant investment that the Navy has made in me and leverage the skills that I have gained over my 13.5 years to stay in this area and continue to serve the nation, just in a civilian capacity.

I would love to stay within the intelligence community. It is part of a larger fight to serve in any capacity. And I would like to continue to advocate for transgender service members and also transgender Americans.

2nd Lt. Nicolas Talbott: I think there are a lot of very strong opinions out there in the world about transgender people and the LGBTQ community.

And I think the big takeaway at the end of the day is, we're all human beings. We all have our strengths, our weaknesses, our faults, and our hopes and our dreams.

Nick Schifrin:

Nic Talbott, Ryan Goodell, thank you very much to both.

2nd Lt. Nicolas Talbott: Thank you so much.

Chief Petty Officer Ryan Goodell:

Thanks.