Clip: Will Ginni Thomas' testimony make an impact on the Jan. 6 investigation?

Yamiche Alcindor : The other thing, of course, that's going on here is that there are political storms brewing in this country. This week, the Committee investigating the January 6 Capitol attack postponed its public hearing scheduled for Wednesday. But, on Thursday, Ginni Thomas, a right-wing activist and the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, testified before the Committee behind closed doors for more than four hours. She was asked to meet with the Committee about her multiple conversations with White House aides, Trump allies, and state Republican election officials, in support of overturning the 2020 election results.
The Committee has been also given new video of Trump ally, Roger Stone, in the days surrounding the 2020 election. Stone is heard advocating for violence and sharing his plan to overturn the election results.
Roger Stone : The election will not be normal.
Oh, is it the California results? Sorry, we're not accepting that. We are challenging them in court. If you'd like to show up in the Electoral College, Armed Guards will throw them out. I'm the president. I'm challenging all of it. And, the judges, we're going to are judges I appointed.
Yamiche Alcindor : So, Ryan, clearly, you're at the table for this entire section. I want to start with Ginni Thomas, because Bennie Thompson has said that she told the Committee, we know very few details of what she told the Committee, but he made clear that she still believes the 2020 election was stolen. What more do we know about what she said? And, what's the significance of the fact that she is even still saying that?
Ryan Reilly : Yes. I think that this was one of those cases where the DOJ and the congressional investigations sort of depart in some ways, because there is not enough evidence right now for you to really run a criminal investigation necessarily against Ginni Thomas. And, I would say, if they were going to go that route, if they are going to potentially pursue something along those lines, if you're going after the way with the Supreme Court Justice, you're going to want to dot your i's, cross your t's, double check your math, so on and so forth before you go down that line.
I think that this is because of her position, is really why she is coming to focus by the Committee here. She has the ear of one of the Supreme Court Justices, what were they talking about? The - what they've claimed is that there is sort of a wall in their relationship that they don't talk about any of these things. But, I don't know, that's going to have to be for folks to decide whether or not husband and wife can absolutely bar anything, these ongoing, major things that they're talking about completely.
But, this doesn't really get into the realm of criminality, necessarily. I think that it's certainly damaging politically, and doesn't look great, certainly for a Supreme Court Justice's wife to be involved in all of these efforts to overturn an ongoing election. But, it doesn't rise quite to the level of criminality yet, which is why it's something you see the Committee pursuing more aggressively at this moment, than you see DOJ.
Yamiche Alcindor : It doesn't look great, is one way to put it to Eugene. It doesn't look great. There are other people who say Roger Stone sitting on a couch, saying maybe we just get violent to steal the 2020 election. Maybe, that doesn't look great, either. Your thoughts?
Eugene Daniels : I mean, the thing I think that's so interesting about Ginni Thomas is that she kind of goes against all the stereotypes that a lot of us at D.C. have, of who would believe that the election was stolen, people that would kind of be like, yes, do what happened on January 6. This is someone who we would say is well educated, someone who has the most connections that you could possibly have, texting the Chief of Staff at the time her husband is a Supreme Court justice.
And so, I think them bringing her in is a reminder to everyone that, no, the thought that someone can believe these lies and these conspiracy theories, it goes beyond socioeconomic status or education. It's something that's deeper, and it will - and you look at Roger Stone as another example, this isn't leaving the Republican Party anytime soon, when these types of folks who have all this power and this influence are also believing and pushing these.
Ryan Reilly : You know that - I think - so many people in D.C. I think Republicans just don't actually believe this stuff, right? And, there is this mix of people. But, Ginni Thomas is someone who actually believes this stuff, right? She is on those Facebook boards. She is reading that nonsense online. She actually dyed in the wool believes this stuff as opposed to a lot of Republicans who are just saying this because this is what they need to do to play to their base.
Yamiche Alcindor : And, - right. I ask you - you also had a scoop this week on the Oath Keepers trial because there is so much January 6 stuff going on. Tell us about your scoop and tell us about how all of this is somewhat connected?
Ryan Reilly : Yes. So, there is - there is a woman named Kellye SoRelle, and she is the General Counsel for the Oath Keepers. She is only recently been charged, within the past month, in fact, in connection with January 6, faces four different charges, was on the grounds of the Capitol that day with the head of the Oath Keepers Stewart Rhodes. What's also interesting about Kellye SoRelle is that she is actually - she is - was involved in the lawyers for Trump during the 2020 election. And, she was in Detroit working for the Trump campaign during this - during that time. And, she developed contacts within the White House.
And so, I've been talking to her for a while and we scooped this week. I ended up calling up Andrew Giuliani, and it turned out that, yes, they were in communication right after the 2020 election. So, that's pretty close connection in terms of the overlap between this legal effort, so-called "legal effort to overturn the election" versus this actual violent overthrow of the election. She is sort of that grip that puts those two things together. We're going to find out a lot more in this upcoming trial from the next five weeks about those connections between the Oath Keepers and the White House.
Yamiche Alcindor : Yasmeen, how is the president trying to just navigate all of this? He clearly wants the DOJ to remain independent. But, this is obviously part of all the midterms. It's what everyone is talking about. Threats to democracy in polls are - our voters are saying that that's a key concern of theirs. What are you hearing?
Yasmeen Abutaleb : I mean, I think he is very careful to not get anywhere near the DOJ piece of it. The investigation, he has made very clear, it's an independent agency. But, you have seen him use the January 6 hearings in his messaging, and you saw him really ramp up his rhetoric about the threats he believes Republicans posted democracy, pointing to some of the evidence revealed in the January 6 hearings. I don't think he can ignore it. And, I know from talking to people in the White House that he started to feel in the spring, it would just be irresponsible if he didn't address this, if he didn't address this extremist wing of the Republican Party that now he believes has really become the mainstream of the Republican Party, or at least taken it over.
Yamiche Alcindor : And, Eugene, what do we know about the next January 6 Committee hearing? Bennie Thompson says there is not going to be any witnesses with it. There is going to be significant information. It's not going to be next week, he says. What else do we know?
Eugene Daniels : Yes. I mean, the thing that they've said is it's going to be overarching. It's not going to be as specific as some of these other hearings that we've seen, because that's kind of it. They are very good at keeping things secret, which is really annoying to all of us when we're trying to do our jobs. But, I think they're running out of time to - for this last hearing. They're running against the wall, which is, the midterms and the possible flip from the House. Republicans are not going to investigate January 6 in the same way.
And so, they have to put a bow on this in some way. We talked to folks behind that Committee. They say that is something they're going to end up doing. This is kind of their last ditch effort in that.
David Sanger : No closer they get to the midterm elections the more political this effort looks. What was most effective was when they had the witnesses, they had Republicans who were in the room or Trump aides were in the room testifying. That was pretty effective. Not having them there is a harder trick.
Yamiche Alcindor : And, Ryan, last question to you, which is, there is obviously all this back and forth with the classified docs, that is still moving through. What's the latest there?
Ryan Reilly : Sure. Actually, just tonight, DOJ has asked the appeals court to expedite their appeal because the Trump appointed judge, Aileen Cannon, has really sort of given everything that Trump has wanted, and then more in terms of what - how this investigation is handed.
Even though Donald Trump asked for the special master, she gave him the special master. Donald Trump said, hey, I'd like these two people to be special - one of these two people to be special masters, she gave it to him. Then, when that special master actually tried to do his job and tries to hold Donald Trump's feet to the fire, potentially, when he is making all these out of court statements about FBI planting evidence at his Mar-a-Lago potentially, and all the judge asked to do was say, OK, is this less accurate? The judge who was in charge - the judge shut down the special master in that thing.
So, I think DOJ doesn't like the way this is going, wants to expedite the court, because before essentially the appeals court, which included two Trump appointed judges, sort of smacked down what that ruling said. So, I think that they're going to go back and say, Hey, let's speed this up, because I think they're going to get a good ruling from the appeals court there again. So, DOJ really wants to put the pedal to the metal and get that, I think, overturned more broadly soon.
Yamiche Alcindor : And, a quick question in 10 seconds. Is this backfiring? Is this special master backfiring on Trump?
Ryan Reilly : Yes, absolutely. If the special master is allowed to do their job, it will backfire.
Yamiche Alcindor : OK. Well, Ryan, with that quick answer. It was so nice to have you all around the table. I'm so happy to be here with all of our friends and all of our guests. So, thank you for all for coming here. Thank you for sharing your reporting. And, don't forget all of you at home to watch PBS News Weekend on Saturday. Anchor Geoff Bennett gets the latest on hurricane Ian and the recovery from the storm.
And finally, my heart of course is with all of those impacted by the storm, including those in my native state of Florida. Thank you for joining us. I'm Yamiche Alcindor. Goodnight from Washington.