The FRONTLINE Interviews

Bobby Scott

D-Virginia

Bobby Scott is a U.S. representative from Virginia. He was chairman and ranking member on the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security on the Committee on the Judiciary and is an advocate for criminal justice reform.

The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Jim Gilmore on July 22, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.

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President Biden

The Choice 2020

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The 1994 Crime Bill

OK, Congressman, so we’ll go right at it.Let’s talk about the 1994 bill.You weren’t very happy with it.Talk a little bit about it.What were your problems back then, and why?

Well, in crime policy, I’ve frequently said you have a choice.You can follow the evidence and research and reduce crime and probably save money, or you can follow the poll-tested slogans and sound bytes.Unfortunately, I think the ’94 crime bill was focused more on slogans and sound bytes.It had “three strikes and you’re out,” “abolish parole,” “death penalty,” “If you do the adult crime, you do the adult time.”It had about every poll-tested slogan and sound byte you can imagine.

That was what people were doing at that time.And that was the choice that was made.It was a very popular bill, but it didn’t do anything about crime, because it didn’t follow the evidence and research.

You’ve called it a political document.What’d you mean by that?

Well, I mean, it was aimed not at crime policy, or reducing crime and saving money.It was aimed more at helping people get elected.It’s a political document, and the choice between following the evidence and research to reduce crime and save money, or you can follow the slogans and sound bytes as a political document to help people get elected.It was clear that if you look at the document, there’s no evidence and research anywhere to be found.It was all designed for political reasons.

The “three strikes and you’re out,” you called it a well-polling slogan or whatever.Explain what you meant by that, and especially that one phrase.

We were told the ’94 election cycle, that “three strikes and you’re out, life without parole,” was the best poll-tested slogan that you could recite an entire election cycle.It’d beat anything you could say about the environment, about health care; beat anything you can say about Social Security.“Three strikes and you’re out” would get you more votes than anything else.It didn’t have anything to do with crime policy, but it would get you more votes. ...

The studies have shown that age at release is one of the major factors at recidivism.The older you are at release, the less likely you are to commit another crime.And here you had a first strike, you went in and got out, got another strike, went in, and got out.And here you are before the judge on your third strike.Well, by the time, whatever the judge does to you on that one, by the time you get out, you’re going to be old.You don’t need life without parole to reduce crime.

And the money you spend on that third strike is just a waste of money.But it’s the best vote-getting slogan that you can recite during that election cycle.And so it was a major part of the bill.

And the legacy of the bill to the Black communities, the mass incarceration that it caused, the way that it messed up Black communities in so many different ways, and families, talk about the legacy of it.

Well, the legacy is, we had slogans and sound bytes.And it wasn’t just the ‘94 crime bill.It was before that and after that that people were picking slogans and sound bytes over evidence and research.And that was just the politics.That was just the politics of the day.As—it got to the point where the only thing you really—the only thing that happened, the only result, was mass incarceration.

And it got to the point where mass incarceration got so expensive that people had to change their policy.Just couldn’t afford to lock up so many people for nothing.I mean, we had so many people in prison that some studies were showing that the prison population, the mass incarceration was actually counterproductive; that you had so many people in jail, you’ve got so many parents trying to raise children, parents in prison, you’ve got so many people with felony records, you’re spending so much money on mass incarceration that could have been used for constructive things that you know, that science will reduce crime and save money, that it’s counterproductive.

And so people just got to the point where they couldn’t afford the silliness.And they began, slowly but surely, picking evidence and research to reduce crime and save money.And over the years, people have changed.I mean, that was the politics 30 years ago.The politics have changed.We’ve introduced bills to show people that you can support an intelligent evidence-based policy and not be hurt politically.And that’s been the change.

And Joe Biden is an example of that.The platform that he’s running on now is not the platform people were running on 30 years ago.It’s progressive.It’s focused on a lot of prevention, early intervention and rehabilitation.It’s focused on evidence and research.It’s focused on things that will reduce crime and save money.It is a progressive document and one that people ought to be proud to run on.

Biden’s Support of the Crime Bills

Why back then was Joe Biden so much a supporter?I mean, you know, it’s his famous line of boasting about the fact that his name was on every major crime bill from ’76 to ’94.What was going through Joe Biden’s mind at that point and why he was writing those bills and such a supporter?

Well, it was a different time, and the focus 30 years ago was on slogans and sound bytes, not the evidence and research.And slowly people have begun to see the wisdom in evidence and research, because you can not only reduce crime, you can also save money.Most of the initiatives that reduce crime also save money.They also, if it’s a good crime prevention measure, you’ll not only save money, you’ll also reduce teen pregnancy, which saves money.So you end up with a much better society and save money in the process.

But 30 years ago, that was a dangerous position to take, because you’re soft on crime, and they’ll run the 30-second commercials.You’ve seen the Willie Horton ads.And they just attack you unmercifully.And then a lot of people did not survive.It was a lot safer to stick with the slogans and sound bytes.But I think the platform that Joe Biden is running on now shows that people have matured and have followed the evidence and research and can have an intelligent crime policy where you’re focused on prevention, early intervention and rehabilitation, and you’re saving money in the process. …

What did Joe Biden learn, you think?Or when did he understand maybe some of the consequences that weren’t understood back then?Did you ever talk to him about the bill?

Well, I’ve talked to him over the years.And he’s been a member of the U.S. Senate.I was a member of the House Judiciary Committee for most of the time I’ve been in Congress.And I think, slowly but surely, people have changed.Back then, there were very few people that were willing to stand up and take an evidence-based approach to crime, regardless of the polls.There are just very few people willing to do that.

And it was a lot easier—I don’t know anybody that ever lost an election voting for a poll-tested slogan or sound byte. ...

Biden in Moments of Crisis

Biden, at this moment, it is a moment of crisis in America.We’ve got people like back in ’68 in the streets that are debating exactly what civil rights are necessary at this point.It’s very different than ’68, but it’s as energetic in a lot of ways.How is Biden, at this moment of crisis, the right man?Is he the right man for America?Do you think that he can make the changes that are necessary at this point?

I think he can.It’s somebody you can have faith in to do the right thing, to do the right thing for the people.You know, you get the sense that the present administration is more interested in politics.You can see that in the response to the pandemic.You can see that in response to crime.There’s not the compassion for people that Joe Biden has.And I think you can look at the way he’s analyzing crime policy, that he’s interested in reducing crime, saving money and doing it in a fair and effective way so that everybody is treated equally under the law.

He’s evolved.He’s learned.

Well, he’s—I think he’s always felt that way.But it’s just, at the time of the past, politics ruled the day.Slogans—when you make the choice, politics, slogans and sound bytes, or evidence and research to reduce crime and save money, very few people were making the choice, reduce crime, following the evidence and research.

The Choice Between Biden and Trump

The question we always ask everybody at the end is, so the name of the program, of course, is The Choice 2020.It’s a very important choice.What is the choice between Biden and Trump?What is the choice America will be making?

Well, I think you can just look at the platform that Joe Biden is running on.It’s a progressive platform, looking forward, making life better for people, focusing on prevention so people don’t get in trouble to begin with; early intervention, so if they’ve veered off a little bit, get them right back on track; rehabilitation—if they’ve gotten in trouble, get them back into society.That makes for a much better society than what we’re dealing with with the present administration.

I think just in terms of compassion and willingness to work with people, a concept of equal protection under the law I think is something that you can have faith that Joe Biden will be pursuing.I don’t think you can have that same faith with the present administration.

Biden’s South Carolina Primary Win

In the primaries, he didn’t do very well in the early primaries.It was really South Carolina that changed everything.It’s a thing about his elections, or even early on, in ’72, that he’s had support of the Black American voters, and he’s in some ways, this—this has gone his way due to that support.Explain why Black Americans are so supportive, why the vote is expected to be tremendously for him.What about Joe Biden do you think draws Black voters?

Well, you have two things going on in the general election.One is support for Joe Biden, and the other is opposition to Donald Trump, the way he’s conducted his administration.But with Joe Biden, you have somebody who you know, in his heart, is going to help the average working person.He’s going to make sure he understands the trials and tribulations of what a job means to a family and what losing a job means.And he’s going to do everything he can to do—to create jobs, make sure people can make ends meet, because he’s lived that experience.And I think people understand that if you agree or disagree with him on a particular issue, you know he’s going to be out there fighting for people like you.

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