The FRONTLINE Interviews
Dan Morain
Author, Kamala's Way
Dan Morain is the author of the biography Kamala's Way: An American Life. For more than three decades, Morain worked as a journalist covering California politics for the Los Angeles Times and as the editorial page editor for The Sacramento Bee.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on July 23, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Kamala Harris’ Parents and Childhood
Her parents have such an unusual American story.I mean, who are they?How do they come together?What's the family that she's born into?
Well, you know, this has been an extraordinary story.So her mom, who I never, she was, I don't know, a little over five feet —maybe five feet?So a diminutive person.But obviously has a really big brain.And she grows up in India, grows up in a somewhat privileged family.I guess her father was a ranking government official.
She goes as far as she can go in college in India.But she wants more.And so she persuades her father that really, where she needs to go is University of California at Berkeley, to become a cancer researcher or scientist.And, I mean, can you imagine this?I think it's 1958-1959, right?So this is a long time ago.We are in a very different world in 2024 than we were in in the late 1950s and early '60s.And yet, this young woman boldly comes to Berkeley of all places.But, of course Berkeley, right?Because Berkeley is a public university, it's a great public university.It's a place that had admitted people from all over the world, and all over the country.And because it's a public university, the tuition wasn't out of sight for people who had the talent but not the means.
So you know, here is her mother, arrives at Berkeley at the start of the free speech movement.So there's ferment going on.And then her father comes from Jamaica.And he pursues a PhD in economics.They meet.They fall in love.It's not a relationship that lasts all that long, but it produces two daughters, Kamala, born in 1964, her sister a couple of years later, Maya.But what an interesting story.They're politically active.I'm not sure that you would describe them necessarily as leaders of protests.But certainly active participants in protests related to civil rights, and no doubt against the war.This is 1964-'65.And, you know, Kamala Harris tells stories that I'm sure were told to her by her mother about, you know, being taken in a stroller to marches and protests.
I grew up across the Bay, in San Mateo, a little bit older than Kamala Harris, or 10 years older than Kamala Harris.But you know, I certainly was aware of what was going on in 1969, 1968, 1970, in Berkeley and San Francisco.You know, there was quite a swirl.There were anti-war protests all the time.There were marches in my little town, my suburb of San Mateo, of the draft board in San Mateo County.You know, Country Joe and the Fish were playing here, Santana, Grateful Dead in Berkeley.I came over across the Bay more than once to see them, or up to San Francisco to see them.It was quite a time.The Black Panthers were formed.And the Black Panthers Party for Self Defense was formed in Oakland.So all this is happening when Kamala Harris is a little girl.Now of course, she was a little, little girl—she's four, five, six, seven, so she's probably not particularly aware of this, as you might be if you were, you know, 10 years older.But her parents are all in this mix.
Kamala Harris was seven when the parents split, so it would have been 1971.You look at the divorce papers, they had so little in 1971-'72.Their division of property involved a few hundred bucks, a bank account that had less than a thousand bucks in it.They divided up their books.They divided up their record albums.So the point of that, I mean what I take away from that divorce record, which we dug up out of the Alameda County Courthouse, was how little the Gopalan-Harris family had.Kamala Harris was not born with a silver spoon in her mouth.You know, not to the manner born.However, her parents were clearly intellectuals, so you know, not a lot of money, but a lot of brains.
With her parents being involved in activism, and the Civil Rights Movement, and anti-colonialism.I mean, do you see, when you talk to people, do they tell you how that shaped little Kamala?Does it lead to her being a politician?Or does it shape the way that she sees the world, growing up in that environment?
Well, I think that the influence of her mother cannot be underestimated.And people who know her, who know her on a personal level—I mean, I know her as a journalist, as a journalist who knows the subject—but I do know that she talks about her mother all the time.I mean, the most recent Kamala Harris-ism that's out on the internet is falling out of a coconut tree.Well, that's a line that her mother taught her, you know, “[you didn’t] just fall out of a coconut tree,” or you're a product of everything that's come before you.And so that's a line.
And she uses the line often about, “You may not be the first, but make sure you're not the last.” I don't have the words exactly correct, but something along those lines.And she still tears up when she talks about her mom, who died in 2009, and she invokes her mother.…
I don't understand her relationship with her dad nearly as well.I mean, she didn't talk about her father.You can read her autobiography.And she devotes page after page to her mother.And she devotes very little to her father.There was a bio, a blurb on the California Department of Justice Office of Attorney General website that described Kamala Harris.And it mentions her mother, not her father.When you look at the photos of the inauguration in 2021, you see Kamala Harris on the stage, President Biden on the stage, and their families, Kamala's sister Maya, her niece Meena, her niece's husband, Nik Ajagu, their two children.And so, that's the Harris family.If her father was there, I didn't find any photo of him.And I looked.
What's the relationship between her mom and the ambition that Kamala Harris has?
Well, I have to think that she's a role model.You know, for Kamala's Way, Kamala Harris didn't talk to me.She was off running for the vice presidency.Even if she weren't, I'm not sure she would have sat around for questions that I would have asked.And that would be a question I would ask, “What is the motivation?” But, from just knowing something about her mother and father, I mean, these are very high-achieving people.It takes guts to come from Jamaica and from India, and to come to Berkeley.This is a bold move on their part.
From what Kamala Harris has said, that she spent time in Jamaica with her dad, she spent more time in India with her grandfather, her mother's father, and that was a significant influence on her.And he was a government official.So you know, was that an influence?I would think.You know, you don't fall off the coconut tree, you're influenced in many different ways.
Her mother must have been quite an independent person.You know, she's working at Berkeley, great place.Her ex-husband is across the Bay at Stanford, so they can share custody, split custody.But her mom got passed over for a job that she thought she deserved.And so rather than sit around and brood about it, she got a job at McGill University up in Quebec, you know, a pretty great place to go.And so she packs her two daughters off.Kamala Harris was 12.Her sister is two years younger.I mean, that's a pretty bold move to go up to Quebec with your two kids.
Harris is Tough
For Kamala Harris, there is discrimination all around her.And I just saw a thing where she's talking about Donald Trump.She said, “I've dealt with racist, gendered comments my whole life.” I mean, how does she deal with it?What is the way she responds to growing up in that environment?
Well, she's a tough person.I mean, as a journalist covering her, watching her, she can be incredibly charming.But there's a steely side to Kamala Harris.You know, when she says no, she really does mean no.I remember asking her to take a stand on ballot measures dealing with the death penalty.We know that she's an opponent of the death penalty.You would think that, as attorney general, she would want to take a stand on such an issue.She wouldn't take it.And you could ask that question 20 different ways, as journalists know how to do, and she will not answer it, right.So, she knows how to stand her ground.
You know, the notion that came up in the debate in 2019, where she took Vice President Biden to task on his remembrance of southern Democrats, southern Senators who were segregationists—you know, she talks about that little girl who was bused across town.I think that had an impact.And you look at that photo of that little girl, I mean, what a gutsy little girl that was.I don't know.I mean, you look at that face, and you can see that that was a face of determination.And how old was she, six, seven in that photo?That becomes so iconic and was on t-shirts after that debate performance.Whether it was a fair attack or not is a whole other story.
You know, I think one of the things it reflected, I mean, we're jumping ahead here, Mike, but, she entered the presidential race understanding that odds were against her winning.Odds were against her winning.We've only had 46 presidents, soon to be 47.Many more people have run and lost.And many people run more than once before they ultimately win.So she knew she was, the odds were against her.
But she also knew that if she was going to enter it, she was entering it to win.She wasn't running for the bronze medal or the silver medal.She was running to win.And so she took her shot at the then front-runner, Biden.It certainly made an impression.And so, she can be a very determined person, is my impression.
Harris Becomes a Prosecutor
Let me ask you about why she becomes a prosecutor.Because the story doesn't really make sense.Her parents are civil rights activists.She's raised going to these rallies.And she decides to start her career becoming a prosecutor.Can you help me understand that Kamala Harris?
Well, if you or I could sit down with Kamala Harris and have a real interview, we would probe this.But I do know what she says about it, what she has said.So she's up in Montreal.She's a high school kid, doing what high school kids do, having a good time.She's organized a dance troupe up there.I'm sure she's one of the popular kids.She's a standout student, I'm sure, at least a good enough student.But she's having a good time.And her friend, I guess maybe her best friend, confides in her that she's been abused at her home.And Kamala Harris goes to her mother and tells her mother.And Harris's mom, and Harris, and Harris's sister bring this kid into their home.And from what I understand, I interviewed the woman, have talked to her, Harris's mother insisted that she go get counseling.And they brought this kid, whose name was Wanda, into the family.…
The story that Kamala Harris tells, is that this is the reason why she became a prosecutor, is because she saw firsthand what crime against children, what impact that can be.… That was her explanation, why this daughter of two intellectuals who were involved in civil rights issues in Berkeley and Stanford, pretty liberal places, why she would become a prosecutor.
And you see that in some of the work she does.Now, she's in Alameda County as a prosecutor.Alameda County, Oakland, pretty tough place, a lot of crime when she arrived in 1990-1991.She starts as a deputy DA, handling misdemeanors, as they all do, and handling motions.But she moves her way up.And she starts handling some pretty significant crime.
She also worked juvenile.Now, of course, all those records are sealed.But you know, there's a reason why a prosecutor decides to work on juvenile cases.And maybe that had to do with Wanda.She moves across the Bay to San Francisco.… And one thing leads to another.She leaves the DA's office for a period of time, goes to work for the San Francisco city attorney, then Louise Renne.And she goes to work in a unit overseeing family matters, so children matters.You know.So it's kind of a recurrent thing.
Is there something that you would define about Kamala Harris and why she chooses this route inside the DA's office, inside government?
Well, you can have a pretty big impact as a lawyer, as a prosecutor.I mean anybody who's covered a courthouse as a journalist can see that it's a tough job to be a prosecutor.You're dealing with ultimately a lot of human pain.But, you know, you can also help people attain justice.So it's kind of a, in my view, an important function.It's a noble profession.
So I think she saw it that way.She talks about it when she is running for president, when she announced her presidential campaign, not too far from where we're sitting right now, up in Oakland.She talks about being “Kamala Harris for the People,” that's how she would introduce herself before a jury or before a judge, “Kamala Harris for the People.” And that's her signature line, as she runs for higher office, “Kamala Harris for the People.” And that's what prosecutors do, when they're doing their job.
The Willie Brown Relationship
The relationship that she has with Willie Brown that gets so much attention.What is that relationship?Where does that fit into her story?
Well, you know, I don't know exactly.I mean, it's not something she has ever talked about in any detail, and my guess is she never will.I do know Mayor Willie Brown.I covered him, you know, I covered the legislature for the final years of his time as speaker.I knew him as an influential lawyer in San Francisco, while he was the speaker.Willie Brown is a unique figure in California history.He is a fascinating, fascinating figure.
By the time that Kamala Harris meets him, he's pretty powerful?
Willie is a very ambitious guy.He becomes Chair of the Assembly Ways and Means Committee early in his tenure, which controls—every bill in the legislature has to go through Assembly Ways and Means.
And he's Chair of that committee at a very young age.He runs for speaker, doesn't win the first time he runs for speaker.The next time of the assembly, he becomes speaker.And he is something to behold.He dresses incredibly stylishly, you know, Brioni suits.He's got a fedora.He drives nice cars.He becomes, really, a man of the City of San Francisco.You know, Herb Cain is the preeminent columnist in San Francisco, and they become good buddies.They have lunch once a week at least, at Le Central.And Willie's a regular feature in Cain's column.
At some point, I think it was 1994, Herb Cain gets a scoop that Willie Brown has a new girlfriend, and her name is Kamala Harris.And he has some line about how she's extraordinarily bright.She's 30 years younger than Willie is.And Willie is married.Willie has a different lifestyle than certainly I do in my marriage.But you know, he lives out loud.And he always comes back to his wife, though.And so anyway, their relationship starts, is announced in Herb Cain's column.…
So he runs for Mayor, 1995.And it's not at all certain he's going to win.He's running against an incumbent, Frank Jordan, former police chief.But he does win.And I covered that election night.And there was a union hall over by Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco, and there's a big victory party at this union hall, and Kamala Harris is there and presents him with a hat [with] the words “DA MAYOR” on a baseball cap.So Willie, you know, Willie is “DA MAYOR” at this point.And, you know, it's a big event.
Well, a couple weeks later, it becomes apparent that Blanche, his wife, is going to be the one who holds the Bible when he's sworn in.And then, read Herb Cain to find out what's going on with Willie Brown’s personal life, and there, it's announced that the relationship is over.
Kamala Harris is a private person.She doesn't tell you much about herself.And yet, this plays out in a column of Herb Cain, the most widely read city columnist ever in San Francisco, and one of the most widely read city columnists ever in the country.… Willie has never really talked about it publicly, in any kind of detail.I don't think he ever will.And I don't think she will either.It became a campaign issue in 2003, but at that point, she was well beyond Willie Brown.She called him an albatross at that point.Certainly one thing Willie Brown is, is very loyal.He's loyal to his friends, and his friends are incredibly loyal to him.So of course, he helped with fundraising.She didn't get where she was because of that.She's her own person.And you know, everybody has people along the way who help them.I have had people along the way who helped me.Without a doubt, he believed in her and believed that she could be a very good public official.So he helped her.
Harris Becomes San Francisco District Attorney
At that moment where it's announced that they've broken up until 2003, what is Kamala Harris doing to be ready to enter politics?Is she determined in laying the groundwork at that point?
Well, I think so, sure.She sits on the board of directors of a museum in San Francisco.She gets children involved in going to museums, children who otherwise probably wouldn't be going to museums, children whose parents are of little means.She becomes a bit of a bold face in San Francisco, she's seen at different places, goes to the opera, which is a big deal in San Francisco, goes to the symphony.You know, she's noted; she's in the society columns.And she's a supervisor, a ranking member of the district attorney's office.You know.So she's building a reputation as a serious prosecutor.…
And the incumbent, Terence Hallinan, has a set of problems.… And Harris decides to take him on.Terence Hallinan comes from a storied family in San Francisco.His father, Vincent Hallinan, ran for president as a progressive, so it's a family of proud lefties.Terence Hallinan's nickname is KO, because he was a good boxer.And he's a fascinating character in San Francisco.Big name.
Kamala Harris, nobody knows who she is.And she decides she's going to run for office.Now, of course, there's an organization that's been created to help empower women candidates.She's part of that.… She raises $100,000 dollars in increments of $500 dollars each.Makes clear that she's a serious candidate.$100,000 dollars isn't going to win that race, but it made clear that Kamala Harris was somebody to contend with.Of course, Maya Harris, her sister, and her mother, Maya's husband, Tony West, who becomes significant later on in the Obama world, contribute to Harris for DA.
There's another serious candidate running, by the name of Fazio.So it would be Hallinan, Fazio, Harris.Harris wasn't at all clear she was going to make it into the runoff.She made it into the runoff.And she runs to the right of Hallinan.Hallinan is the more liberal person in this campaign.When the Chronicle endorsed Harris for District Attorney, the headline read, “Harris, for law and order.” So she's the law and order candidate.In San Francisco, she was.Now, of course, the rest of the country, you know, in Biloxi, Mississippi, she would have been kind of liberal.
Of course, she opposed the death penalty, and made that clear from the get-go, that she opposed the death penalty.She wins that race.In part, she wins that race by personally going to the public library, as I was told later, and getting photos of every former district attorney she could find.And, of course, they were all white men, and putting them on a brochure, and then pointing out that, well, you know what?She's a little different than the ones that came before.And this becomes a mailer that she sends out.
It's a real bottoms-up race.Her campaign headquarters is in a poor part of the town that needs help, a long way from the cable cars, and the opposite end of town from the Financial District.And that's where they set up headquarters.And she won.She won.First woman, first woman of color to be the district attorney in San Francisco.Big deal.Takes office in 2004.
And it's only 100 days into that that the Officer Espinoza moment happens.And what I'm especially curious about is what lesson she draws from the blowback, so early in her political career, and whether that's something that shapes her.
Yeah.… This officer gets shot, and Kamala Harris is overseeing the investigation, you know.It's a serious crime.Murder of a police officer, doing his job.Young man and family man doing his job, and he gets blown away.Three days after the murder, she announces she's not going to seek the death penalty in this case.She's basically upholding a campaign promise that she wasn't going to seek the death penalty.She could have figured out better timing.It was before the guy's funeral.But she did what she did.And she, you know, got pilloried for this.Dianne Feinstein attacked her at the funeral, I mean verbally attacked her.The city police chief was highly critical of this decision.The police unions and the police officers were incensed.For months thereafter, she would go into the Hall of Justice, and if cops saw her, they would turn their back on her.So she was being shunned, literally shunned.
What did she learn?I think she learned that, if you take a stand, a controversial stand, you're going to get attacked.Did that make her more cautious?I think maybe.I think maybe that made her a little more cautious about taking stands.I mean, imagine it happened five years after that, same set of circumstances.I still don't think she would have reversed her position on the death penalty.I think you take a stand on the death penalty, that's your stand.Same like with abortion rights, right.These are fundamental issues, moral issues.…
Harris’ Political Rise
What is her political secret?Because she goes from being attorney general to being a United States Senator.What is her skill?What is it that gets her onto the national stage?
Well, you know, she's a really good politician.Now, I know, when she ran for president, she fumbled.It was not a great campaign.But I saw her as running for attorney general in 2010, and then running for reelection in 2014, and then running for U.S.Senate.Her eye had always been on the next office.She—if you want to indulge me in—she came to the Sacramento Bee editorial board, seeking our endorsement in 2014, and it was an easy endorsement.Her opponent was not a serious candidate, so of course, we endorsed her.
But I wanted to know whether she was going to serve her full term.And she said something equivocal like, “I hope so.” Well, what did that mean?Okay.And basically, she's sworn in in January, 2015, for a second term, and days later, Barbara Boxer announced that she's not going to run for reelection for U.S.Senate, opening a Senate seat.And Kamala Harris jumps in.So she's clearly not going to serve a full second term as attorney general.
But, one of the things that she was able to do is to clear the field.She had a tough campaign when she ran for DA the first time.The second time she ran for DA, nobody opposed her, even though she had incurred this whole whirlwind of opposition as a result of her stand on the Isaac Espinoza murder case, not seeking the death penalty.She ran unopposed.…
She's running for U.S.Senate.… You would have thought, in 2016, the first time a Senate seat had come open in a generation, that there would be serious competition.Well, not so much.…
It's kind of a recurrent theme.I mean, you saw this that Sunday when President Biden announced he wasn't going to run, and then soon thereafter, announced that he was endorsing Vice President Harris.There was what, a 20-minute lag between the time Biden announced he wasn't going to run, and announced he was going to support his vice president, which I don't think ever was really in doubt, though I don't know.
And you know, anybody who was going to challenge her didn't have time to mount a challenge.Twenty minutes, and then she inherits his campaign staff.She, more importantly, inherits his $90-plus million dollar campaign bank account.And you know, she lines up a bunch of supporters who are quick to endorse her.She did the same thing when she ran for the U.S.Senate.I mean, she makes her announcement almost immediately, Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, Cory Booker of New Jersey, Kirsten Gillibrand of New York, all announced that they're supporting Kamala Harris for the U.S.Senate.She's very good at sort of clearing the field, certainly her campaign team is very good at clearing the field.And if you're running against nobody, it's kind of hard to lose.
Harris on the National Stage
Is she a natural legislator?How does she adapt to that?Because the things that we remember, of course, are the back-and-forths on the panel, questioning people.I mean, who is she as a United States Senator?
Well, you know, I'm out here in California.That's 3,000 miles away.I did pay attention, because I was an editorial page editor, to what our rookie U.S.Senator was doing back there.And she introduced resolutions.None of it passed.None of it came close to passing.Well, even a freshman Senator with her background from California, it's pretty hard, as I understand how that institution works, to get much done.So, she didn't get a lot done.
You know, she's elected in November 2016.Election night, everybody thought—I think probably even Donald Trump thought, but certainly everybody in California thought that Hillary Clinton was going to win.Couldn't imagine that she was going to lose.As the editorial page editor of the Sacramento Bee, we had written an editorial in advance, talking about President-elect Clinton.About midnight, I had to rewrite the entire thing and write an editorial about President-elect Trump.So, she's at a victory party, assuming that Hillary Clinton is going to win.And she's going to be a U.S.Senator with a Democratic president.Well, that didn't happen, right?So immediately, she becomes part of the opposition to Donald Trump.You know, and remember what was happening right after he took office, the Muslim ban, the San Francisco Airport, there was a huge big protest.Gavin Newsom went to it.You know, it was a big deal.
… I don't have a lot of doubt that on election night, from everything I could gather, she didn't say she was going to run for president immediately.But I do think that her staff was thinking, and her campaign people were thinking of that.And it makes sense.I mean Donald Trump was going to be—we didn't know what his first term was going to be like.But we knew it was going to be very, very different from what a Hillary Clinton presidency would have been like.
I mean, what is it about her, as you've talked to people, that makes her run for president at that point, you know, barely into the Senate, that sort of makes her so audacious to throw her hat in the ring?And you told us already that it wasn't a lark, that she meant to win it.
Yeah.Well, I mean, you look at who her team was, you know, Ace Smith was high up in Hillary Clinton's campaign organization in 2008.… She comes from California.She can raise a ton of money.She's a new face on the national scene, certainly.But you know, she can be a terrific candidate.She was a terrific candidate, from what I saw from afar, in 2019.And she flamed out pretty quickly.But you know, did she really?She becomes vice president.It's not bad to win second place.And that's what she did.
I mean, she has said that she doesn't like talking about herself, that she likes talking about being a prosecutor.We've talked about how she doesn't want to talk about her dad.She doesn't really, you know, tend to connect with voters in that way.I mean, is that a liability for her as a politician, as she gets onto the national stage?
Well, she is on the national stage.And I think those of us in our line of work are going to want to know answers to this.And maybe she'll reveal it, maybe she won't.I don't know.You know, it's tough to be a private person in 2024, on the most public of stages.We know what her positions are.Maybe that's enough.We know who her husband is.We know who her sister is.We know who her niece and those children are, and Doug Emhoff's children.Obviously, they've got a strong relationship with Vice President Harris.
So, maybe we know enough.And maybe it's not, you know, the public's right to know every little detail about her.
Last question that we ask everybody when we do these interviews is, what is the choice that's facing voters in November?
Well, when I wrote Kamala's Way, the goal was to tell the story as honestly as I could, as journalistically as I could.So if you read the book, you will see that it is balanced.I write what I saw, what I know.There are no blind quotes in it.It's all on the record.I mean, of course I know things off the record.But if it's off the record, I'm not going to write it.
Here is what I think, though.I have no doubt that Kamala Harris believes in the Constitution.I have no doubt that she believes in the rule of law.I don't think you can be a prosecutor and not believe in the rule of law, if you're an honest prosecutor.And I think she was an honest prosecutor.Is she a flawed human being?Of course.I haven't met one who's perfect.
So it really does come down to that.You know, you're going to believe in the rule of law, you're not going to believe in the rule of law.I believe she believes in the rule of law.I believe she believes in the Constitution.I believe that she would go with the will of the voters.I don't think that she will challenge the outcome of the election, should she lose.I don't believe that that would happen.I'm not sure, you know.And the flipside is, we know what former President Trump did when he lost.And it wasn't pretty.
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