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Jill Louis
Harris Friend
Jill Louis attended Howard University with Kamala Harris, and is one of her sorority sisters in Alpha Kappa Alpha. She is currently a managing partner at the law firm Perkins Coie.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 7, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Meeting Kamala Harris
Let me just start at the beginning.When do you first hear of Kamala Harris?When do you first meet her?
I meet her in the spring of 1986, when we were initiates for Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority.
And who was she then?Tell me about first meeting her, first coming across her, what she was like.
So that is such a big question.So when we all first met, many of us had never seen each other before, and I had not met Kamala before we were brought together as 38 women from all over the country.And so we're all getting to know one another, and I remember her very specifically being this person who was both joyful but also very focused, very calm.When we had hard deadlines, she was the person who said, “All right, this is how we can move forward.”She was never rattled by them.And also her joy.And when people talk about her laugh, that is the same laugh that she's always had because of the way she is, and I think it's wonderful.
So tell me about what the actual situation was.Was this when she's in her second semester of her senior year, or is this before?
So this is second semester, senior year, because what you have to know at Howard is we don't join our sororities and fraternities in our freshman year.You can't join before your sophomore year.And then the sororities and fraternities don't have an intake process every single year, and so she was able to join in her senior year because that was the time when there was an intake process.So they come around, and they would find each of us in our dorms.And you would wait.You would sort of know that maybe this was the day, and then we were all brought together in a big auditorium.And she was one of our 38 in the big auditorium, and that's when we all met.
Alpha Kappa Alpha
Help me understand the sorority AKA and why she would want to join and what you did.
So again, multi-part question.So let's start from why she would want to join Alpha Kappa Alpha.It was something that she was first exposed to when she was growing up.She had aunts who were members of Alpha Kappa Alpha.And that's true for many women, that you first learn of it from seeing the example of other women.But for Kamala, she was attracted to the sorority for its service component.We do have a nice time, and we do have a college life, but what you have to know about Alpha Kappa Alpha is, first and foremost, we are founded for service.We were founded for uplift of a people, starting in 1908.It was very important to those women to say, “How can we uplift our people?,” given that we were just a few years from being freed from slavery at the time of the founding of the sorority.So for Kamala, it was something that was about service, and that's a thread that has followed through. ...
I won't ask it as multi-part, but tell me about what you would do in the sorority, because I think a lot of people have [the] impression of other sororities and fraternities that are sort of for partying and that that's what they're centered around.It sounds like that's not what you're talking about.
So that is really well said, and that is something to be clarified.People may think of sororities and fraternities like what you see on <i>Animal House</i> or some movies.Our sorority was founded for service and for uplift, and that is the thing that everyone needs to understand about it.This was not about having parties.This was about, what can you do for your people?And by people, the entirety of the earth, really.Our motto is “Service to All Mankind,” and so that is how we formulate everything that we do, looking at health care, looking at education.And when you think about kind of the early things that were being done by Alpha Kappa Alpha, that is what we took on.
One of our signature projects was the Stop Hunger fast, and we had an educational component to that, and we raised money by fasting over a weekend to bring attention to hunger, both here and in the continent of Africa.And at the end of it, we would then be able to give money, both to United States organizations and to those in Africa.And back in the day, we raised $10,000 from students, which doesn't seem like tons of money now, but which was huge for us.And this was before people were [on] Venmo and Zelle.This was kids with dimes, dollars, quarters, but fasting, so that we could also understand hunger, and these are the types of programs that we were involved in during our time at Howard in the sorority.
The other thing that stands out about it is, it seems like it's not something that ends in college.When you see images of people from her sorority cheering her on or her attending conventions, can you help me understand that, if it extends beyond your time in college?
Oh, yes.Alpha Kappa Alpha does not end in college, and people don't say, “I was a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha.”You are a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha.Kamala Harris is a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha.And it continues very vibrantly into the graduate chapter.So we have graduate chapters, and there are even women who join the sorority after they have finished college, because it really is an organization about the community and about uplift.And so that does not stop at the college door.And so many of us are still very involved in the sorority.
You said it went back to 1908, and to when the legacy of slavery was—
Fresh.
—even more present than it is now, though it's still present.How was it designed to help combat that or deal with the racial problems in America, and what it was like to be a Black woman in America?
So the sorority came together as college women.In 1908, even that was a novel thing, to be a college woman and to be a Black woman in America.They were also receiving upper-level education in order to go out into the communities, going out into rural health care, making sure that others were educated.Many of the founders were also educators, and that was very important to them, that they were able to bring more people into the educational fold.
Howard in the 1980s
So I want to talk to you a little bit about what Howard was like and what it would have been like for her.But first, maybe you can help me understand what would bring her there, because she's talked a lot about her past and her parents and growing up in Berkeley.As you got to know her, how did she talk about her childhood, about growing up?
Howard is such an interesting place for someone who has Kamala Harris' background.The reason being is because you come to a place that is comfortable with the full diaspora of identity, and then you get to step outside of minority.And for Kamala, having been raised in a world where she is very much a part of two cultures, both the African American experience—actually, three—so the African American experience, the West Indian experience, and the East Indian experience in being South Asian.And so from that standpoint, to be able to come, and all of a sudden not be an oddity, to meet other people who are part of the diaspora, who understand the complex threads of history that make up your identity, and to accept that and to say, “You can come here, and you can be excellent,” because you drop all of that.
Nothing at Howard happens to you because of your race.I'm going to say that again.Nothing at Howard happens to you because of your race.It happens because of who you are—the quality of your character, your willingness to work hard.And for that, it is a liberating experience where you can really come into your own.
And in the '80s, and being the children who were first born outside of legal segregation, our generation was not a part of that.Our parents were a part of legal segregation, and so when we were born in the mid- to late '60s, then at that point, our parents were so hopeful for everything that we could become, and they told us that the bounds are off, you know. …
But our parents told us that we no longer had the legal impediments to being able to move forward and that they were so hopeful at our birth.Kamala's parents were part of that Civil Rights Movement, actively working in Berkeley.And then, moving forward, she wanted to carry that.She wanted to carry that promise forward.And those are the kinds of things we would talk about late at night when we were doing sorority projects, because remember, you're a college student, too, so now you have taken on this extra layer of, I am going to do service in addition to my college career.
Many people become overwhelmed just by their college situation and what they need to perform in the day, with respect to needing to have your projects done, your studies done.We don't settle for that.We make sure that we can do more things, because you have to come outside of yourself, and that is what Kamala is about.She had a willingness to come outside of herself and to do more, and that's what attracted her to Alpha Kappa Alpha.
She knew that that would be work.It's much easier just to go to college and not have to have a job or whatever else you're doing, and to do use all of your extra time for social.That's not what Kamala was doing in joining Alpha Kappa Alpha.She was signing up for a lifelong commitment of service.
Now let me break down some of the things you said, because there's very interesting thinking about who Kamala Harris would become.The first thing that you said was that there's a sense—if I'm understanding you correctly—that there's a sense that when you're in an HBCU, when you're at Howard, that you're able to be yourself, and you're not pigeonholed by what you look like or people saying you're the Black kid.Is that what you're saying?
Absolutely, because saying, “There is the Black girl,” or, “There is the South Asian girl,” or, “Gee, what are you?,” you don't get strange questions about your racial heritage, because people at Howard understand that we are part of a diaspora.No one is confused about the multitude of threads, and so being able to step out of minority is empowering, but it also has accountability, because now you know that whatever happens to you, it's because of who you are.And in that, you now have to define yourself.You have to say, “What am I going to do?”
When we were at Howard in the '80s, one of the largest compliments you could receive was that you were thorough.And so people would describe people who were about their business, who were getting work done, who were cogent thinkers on their feet, as being thorough, and that's the environment that Kamala entered, and she flourished there.She raised her hand and signed up to do things, including to join the sorority, which she knew was going to take additional time.
Was she thorough?
She was thorough.
Harris Growing up in Berkeley
Did she talk to you about this, about feeling that in other places in her life—I mean, Berkeley sounds like a pretty integrated place, where she grew up initially.But did she talk about being pigeonholed and identified by how she looks or what her background was?
Yes.So I remember, it was, again, late one night, and we were working on a project for the sorority.And she talked about having suffered racial slurs for both of her cultures.She could be called names for being a South Asian person.And she could be called names for being a Black person.And understanding that dynamic, when you have both, both issues. …
So I remember, it was late one night, and we were working on a project for the sorority, because we would put things together for people, for service projects, and so this was one of those nights.But when you're all together, sitting around, you start to tell stories, and we were people who were learning about each other more deeply so that we could work together.And she told the story of being referred to by a South Asian slur, and it was the first time that I ever thought about this notion that someone could be referred to negatively for many different types of heritage, and the fact that she had received racial slurs for being a Black person and racial slurs for being someone of South Asian descent.That was really eye-opening to me, to realize that there were just layers to what she had to deal with in growing up, but yet overcoming it, because she was not telling this story in an upset fashion.It was more matter-of-fact and sort of a, “Can you believe that?”And I remember her smiling as she was telling it, because she was thinking more about how this was something that she couldn't believe that people had a hard time understanding, like who she was and that you could be spoken to in this way for either heritage.
Do you know where that comes from in her?Because this is a trait she's going to carry through to the presidential campaign.She's going to hear a lot of nasty things.And when she talks about her childhood, she acknowledges those things happened, and there was a kid who couldn't play with her because she was Black.But she doesn't dwell on it. It's not—
No, because you have to move forward, and that's what I think that people also need to understand about her character.It's the resilience.She puts it in a place where she can move forward.And so one of the things, when she was first kind of on the public scene, and people would talk about her laugh, that is such a recognizable laugh.It's part of her authenticity; it's part of her absolute joy in life, that she sees the humor in things, that she sees the joy in things.
And it was one of those things where you see her, and you say, she is the same person in front of the camera and behind the camera; she is the same person before all the bright lights.And that authenticity is what really endears us to her.
Some people suggest that her resilience comes, to some extent, from her mom.Did she talk about her mom, or did you have a sense of who she was?
She talked about her mother, but I heard more about her mother in retrospect, after she lost her.But it's almost like her memory was propelling her forward.She would talk about the lessons that she learned from her mother, and she talks about that a lot publicly.
Because what we're trying to figure out is that resilience that you're talking about, like where it comes from.
Well, it also comes from being raised in a culture of humility and accountability; that you never rest on, “Oh, well you've done so perfect and so well.”There's always more.There's always striving for more, to do better.Many of the stories that she tells about her mother are about moving forward and being circumspect.
Howard Students Prepared for Success
… You talked about her being thorough, and I've read about how students dressed at Howard.Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Well, it was so interesting to me to find out that there were schools where people went to class in like just jeans and sweats or shorts.At Howard, in the '80s, we dressed up.We dressed up on campus.There were people who wore suits to class.You wore nice dresses.You wore blouses.Because we were the first generation out of legal segregation, we wanted to be part of the opportunities that you could experience there, and she absolutely wanted to make sure she was taking advantage of those things.And so Howard's campus was one of focus and one of really thinking about, how do we succeed in this world that has now taken away the legal impediments to being able to be successful?Howard was about business and about getting a job.You didn't want to major in something in the '80s, where it was like, “Well, what do you do with that?,” because people would say, “Well, if you're majoring in that, what do you plan to do with it?”So we always knew that Howard had to be an instrumentality for us, to be able to move forward, and that was the culture of Howard in the '80s.
It's so interesting, because she comes from these two places.And one of them is Berkeley in the early 1970s, and the other is Howard in the 1980s.There are similarities, and there are similar messages, but they sound like they're different places, too.
Well, you know, I can't really comment on Berkeley in the '80s, but I can tell you that at Howard, we were also focused on the geopolitical world, apartheid, and learning about it.You could walk through the campus, the Yard, and as you walked through the Yard, it was not uncommon to see groups of students gathered together and someone speaking about the injustices of apartheid.
And so we would get involved in that.We would educate ourselves.We would go to protests.We wanted to have accountability for our own university.We would ask those questions of, “Well, are we going to divest?What is happening?Who are the players there?,” and being very focused in that.And I'm sure, just from the stories that I've heard about life in Berkeley, that Howard probably seemed like a very familiar place to the vice president, because it was a place where people really thought about the world and justice on a worldwide basis, and we literally thought that we should be impacting that as students.
I remember, when you would have speakout—that was our sort of vetting process for various things, where you would run for student council offices—people would ask you about geopolitical questions to see if you knew enough about the world to serve at Howard.So think about that now.Can you control what's going on in other countries?But they wanted people who really understood their duty to serve a broader world.
And she ran, I think her freshman year, for a student council position, so she would have been through that kind of—
She would have been through a Howard speakout, and let me say, if you can survive in that environment, you can survive in any environment, because people will raise their hands and ask a multitude of questions.I got there the year after her freshman year, so I was not bearing witness to any of this personally in terms of her participation in a speakout, but I can tell you, that a speakout was not for the faint of heart and that people would ask a variety of questions, and you needed to be ready to answer.And they would confront you directly if they felt you were wrong.People would come with facts, and so that's an environment that is very accountability-rich.
That makes me wonder: Was it a diverse political environment, with conservatives and liberals?
It was a very diverse political environment.You also had people who were raised outside of the United States.You would have people who would raise their hand and talk about the conditions in Africa or how Africa viewed the United States.We had people, during that time, who were not only from all 50 states of the United States, but over 100 different countries in the world.This was an entirely diverse place.People would say, “Oh, well, you're going there, and everybody's the same, right?”No.It was the most diverse place that I had ever been in my life, given that wide breadth.
And so you had several different perspectives, and people who were learned in those perspectives.You weren't allowed just to sort of raise your hand and give an opinion.You had to come with facts, and that was because there were people who understood the world very broadly.
Harris’ Political Aspirations
She ends up pursuing a career in government, and I wonder whether her college years were influential in that.Obviously it's in Washington, DC.She works in the Senate and other government agencies.Do you think the location, do you think her college years affected her interest in going into government?
You know, what I can say is that she was always interested in justice and how would she have that impact to provide a broader justice.And in that way, it would be influencing.She never mentioned, when we were in the sorority, “I think I want to go back to Oakland and be a prosecutor.”She was going to head off to law school, and in law school, as you know, you figure out what do you want to do and what do you think will both be part of your skill set and how can you have an impact.And her focus has always been, how can I have a broader impact for justice, for service, to make people have better lives?
And that is something that has been with her since the college days.That's not something that she came up with because now she's running for something.This is the fabric and the value that she has.It's why we are attracted to her.It's why we trust her.
… It's interesting, because we've done biographies of other presidents, presidential candidates, and somebody like Joe Biden, … when he was 7, his teacher said he wanted to be president of the United States.And it doesn't sound like that's the story of Kamala Harris.
No. I find it fascinating, those people who do say that.And maybe that's a little bit of entitlement that you can say, “Well, when I grow up, I'm going to be president.”No one who looked like us had even been Miss America, which happened while we were in college, and we took that as this sign, this opening of, we too can be symbols of America.So coming from not having segregation legally to being able to be Miss America to being able to enter corporate America to being able to enter places in the justice system where you did not see women, Black people, but you needed to have that input and that perspective.
And so her ability to go into that space was unique for that time.But she was not somebody who did things opportunistically.She was not someone who said, “Well, I'm raising my hand, and I have this mission that I'm going on for power.”Her journey has always been about service, and that's the thing that people really need to understand, that she is not going in this direction because of some predefined notion of “I want to be in power.”She wants to be of service, and this is the way she's found to do it.
It's interesting, because one of the things that she's said is that she didn't want to be on the outside banging on the door; she wanted to be the person on the inside opening the door to let people in.
Exactly, because our generation was given that opportunity for the first time, and so we really felt like we had a duty to maximize on that, to be part of these institutions rather than being on the outside.
We talked a bit about how people there dressed.How did she dress if we saw her in those days?
So she was just like the rest of us.She would be neatly dressed, perhaps in a skirt and sweater.Sometimes when we were on the Yard, we'd wear our sorority paraphernalia, and that was a little more casual.But she carried a little briefcase, which was not even strange at that time, because people were about looking buttoned-up, looking the part.Many times people might be going to a job or an interview or something like that.But a lot of times, they were just going to school.And so she was right there with us.
Being on Woman at Howard in the 1980s
What was it like to be a woman on campus in the 1980s?
That's an interesting question.So you spent a lot of time, or we spent a lot of time in the '80s, adjusting to integrated spaces, and it could sometimes be an overwhelming notion just to try to fit in as a person of color.And I mentioned that when you went to Howard, you removed that.You stepped out of that minority, and it allowed you to truly express yourself.So similarly, as a woman, you also felt like you could have an impact, you could move forward in your life, and that you shouldn't have certain impediments.
So I think it was very freeing as a woman.To be honest, I didn't really think about my separate gender as a woman until I got to professional school, because to that time, it was just so tough to be Black in these integrated spaces for the first time.Our parents were in legal segregation, so they basically lived in a world where everybody was like at Howard.And so they did not, in their segregated spaces, have to deal with that front-on, every day of their lives.And what they now call microaggressions, that wasn't even a thing.That was just sort of a day at school, that somebody would ask you a question about your hair, your skin color, make a stray comment about who you were.It was enough just trying to be a Black person in America in the '80s, that coming into womanhood was something that I think the sorority really allowed us to do, because it was a celebration of women and their capability.And it was a training ground for women, and it raised the level of expectation that we could have an impact.And so that, to me, is really what the sorority provided us.
It was a refuge within a refuge.
Yes, a place of our own that where what we had to say mattered and that we really were a full part of the fabric of it.And it was our own space.We were not in the shadows of whatever was happening with a fraternity.We were our own thing, and that was very empowering.
That's really interesting, because I hadn't thought about the sorority element in that way, though I’ve heard people describe Howard in the way you described it.
But is it— When I think about it, yeah, because when you're asking me like, “Oh, what was it like to be a woman?,” like I said, people were very busy just trying to exist in these integrated spaces.But our womanhood was celebrated in Alpha Kappa Alpha.Our colors are pink and green.You can't get more ladylike than that.
But it was a time of gender stereotypes in addition to the racial stereotypes.
It was, and I think that that also shaped some of the choices that we made in our lives, making sure that we had the education that would validate us and being able to really stand on our credibility.We knew we had to earn it, and so we worked to earn it every day.We did not think someone was going to give us anything, and that was an important fact as well.
Harris Becomes a Prosecutor
… Some people have described her decision to become a prosecutor as sort of an origin moment for her political career, and she's talked a lot about it, in particular her conflict with her mom over it and says she has to defend it like a thesis, that decision.Can you help me understand why she would make that decision, why she would choose to become a prosecutor?
What I can tell you is that it is so important to have people on the inside to make the decisions around what gets prosecuted and how.Justice can be done for people by virtue of who is making those decisions, and so being on the inside is very important, and it's very important for the administration of justice.If a broader group of people, the underserved, want to have justice, you cannot have people who don't come from an experience that really understands what it's like to be on the wrong end of that, so she brings that to the table.
There's an interesting story, because I remember when she was running, and one of my law school classmates at Harvard said, “Oh, your sorority sister is running for DA.”I said, “Yeah, I know. I think that's great.”She was like, “I don't think she's going to make it.”I was like, “Why do you say that?”She's like, “You know it's going to be a tough race.It's going to be a tough race, and I don't see her making it.”And I said, “I don't see counting her out.I think she will, because she's going to work for it.”And we know what happened.
This sounds like that central message that you were talking about, of being inside the system to change things.But she's walking into an environment as a prosecutor in law enforcement that's predominantly white, predominantly male.Where she's going to, it's not going to be like Howard; she’s going to stand out.
See, that's what people don't fully understand also about going to Howard.They say, “Well, if you go to Howard, and you have this very multicultural but heavy on the Black experience, then are you empowered to be able to function in the outside world?”When you step out of minority, when you understand who it is to be a person and to be truly evaluated on your character, on your merit, then you're able to push through a lot.It empowered her to go into these spaces, because now she could wake up every day as Kamala.She doesn't wake up every day as the Black girl or the South Asian girl.She wakes up 100 percent Kamala every day.
And she already knew, from growing up, that she was going to go into spaces.People don't understand that, as a person of color, you don't go into spaces where everyone's like, “Welcome” and “Hello.”From childhood, you learn that there are spaces that you're going to enter that may be hostile to you, and you learn that defense mechanism, and you learn to turn it into a plus.People may underestimate you, but you have the strength.And you know all the cultures; we’re raised in all of them, so she was not going to be afraid of that, and she's never been afraid.
What is that defense mechanism?Because we've heard people won't talk to her; they talk to her assistant.She'll be the only person of color or the only woman in the room, and she knows that they don't think that she deserves to be there.What is the defense mechanism for Kamala Harris that allows her to operate in that way?
You focus on the mission.That is what you do, because it's not a defense like fall back and throw up your shields.It's a defense by saying, “I'm going to come in, and I'm going to be focused, competent and successful in the mission.”And that's where you put your head.You put your head in the game, and that is what she does.
Do you hear about—so you heard about her running for DA.Did she reach out to you before, or did you talk to her during that period?
She didn't reach out to me before deciding to run for DA, but she did reach out to me before deciding to run for president, and this was back in the 2020 race.We had gotten together a couple of times while she was in the Senate, and I had gone and visited, and we just talked about other people and running, and she had mentioned to me that she might think about a run.It was late in her—you know, after she had been elected senator and she’d been there for a little bit, she talked about that.And I said, “Well, I'd be very supportive.”She was like, “I haven't made a decision yet.I'll let you know.”
And I'll never forget when she called me, and she said, “I’m going to run for president, and I want you with me.”And I said, “Well, I'm there,” because that's what you do as a sorority sister.But I also knew that I supported her.I could have a lot of questions if I did not, because sorority sisters also hold you accountable.We're not just the amen corner; we are the excellence corner.We are trying to say, “You're going to be your best self.”
But when she called me and she said, “I'm going to run, and I want you with me,” and I said, “I'm coming, and I'm not scared.But, you know, there are people who are scared for you.They're scared about the nastiness of politics, and they're wondering, should they even support and promote you forward?”And I remember she said to me, “Breaking barriers means that things get broken, which means that it's hard.It's an uphill climb, and I'm not afraid of that.”And I said, “Well, I'm not scared either.I'm with you.”
… Were there other moments, just to go back before that, where you intersected or heard about running for attorney general or what it was like for her as a politician on the rise?
So we would talk about things that you talk about as friends, because the other thing to realize is that people need actual, authentic friends, and not every conversation is about politics or what happens.She never fails to call me on my birthday.Every year, there is a call on my birthday.And it's gotten harder, because when you're the vice president of the United States, you don't actually have ready access to be able to communicate with people, because you are in the White House.But she always remembers that.And she calls—so joyful.She was coming back, actually, from Paris, an official visit one day.And it was my birthday, and she called me.And I said, “Well, how are you doing?”And she said, “I'm doing great.I had such a great meeting.”And she talked about all the substance that she felt that they shared.You know, nothing that was confidential, but that it was a great meeting, and it was so good to be on the same page with our allies.
And then to read about in the paper, all they wanted to talk about was a pot.1And knowing, behind the scenes, the truth of the matter, which was she was taking care of the business of the United States globally, making sure that this was a safer place, and that we, as a country, had shored up our relationships with our allies, and then it all gets boiled down to a pot.
1
But is she always positive when you talk to her?
She actually is, surprisingly so.Even most recently, when we saw her after the Boulé speech that she gave, because several of us were there, and we got to go behind the stage and to talk with her, and just seeing her sense of calm, and that has been her throughout.We could have the craziest deadline to get something done for the sorority, because when you're an initiate, you're going through a process of preparing projects, and there's just a lot of things to be done in addition to your schoolwork on a tight timeline.
Many of us— Thinking about this, this is a room of 38 women.Nobody's a shrinking violet.Everybody is trying to get something done, get it done well, on a little bit of sleep.She was never the person who snapped.She was always focused, joyful.And so similarly, when I saw her just a few weeks ago, all of this was going on in the background.We didn't know that this was going to happen and that she would have to be propelled forward to run for president.She was on the trail as the VP and doing that job.And she was always very focused on “I'm doing that job.”She was never angling to be president in the background.She's like, “I am the vice president.”Even in the quiet moments, when we were together with just sort of an internal group of people who, like, these are the people that know her and know her authentically, she would shut down any conversation on, “Well, what about you?What about when you're president?”She's like, “I'm the vice president, and I'm doing this job.”She could have very well given us, you know, some wink or a nod.No, she was always very focused on “I am the vice president, and I'm doing this job for the Biden administration.”
But, going back to the calm, all of this is going on in the background.Think about the swirl that must have been happening.But she was smiling.We were hugging.We were laughing.And she was calm, and that has been her throughout.That's why her nickname was “Calm, Cool and Collected,” because she was going to be focused; she was going to be on mission, no matter what.
Harris Enters the U.S. Senate
… Were you around in 2016?She's elected.It's the same year of Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.
Yes.So I went up with a group of our sorority sisters, our line sisters specifically, and I remember her being sworn in, and that this was also the time in which this other election had happened, and this was the ray of hope.Everyone in the room was so enjoying this senator from California, a senator that we knew personally, and it gave us so much calm and comfort in what we knew was going to be a storm.
And I remember she spoke to people in the evening that night, and she said, “You know, I'm here to work together with the administration that we have.But if we're not standing up for justice, then we're going to have to fight.”And that was her mantra, that “I'm here to work together for positive change, but if someone is stepping outside of justice, equality, inclusion, then we're going to have to fight.”And those were her exact words.
… And when you would see her at those hearings of Trump nominees or the Brett Kavanaugh moment?
She was prepared.That was her.We knew that was who she always was, because again, she lived in an environment where, if you don't come with the receipts, then you might not be able to execute on the mission.She's not going to run off half-cocked without the facts.So she is going to come with them, because starting from at Howard, if you don't come with the facts, you're not going to do well, because somebody in that audience is going to have the facts.She came from that environment.
2019 starts off—her campaign starts off very well and sort of peters out at the end and is not successful.As you're watching that, is that hard for you?Do you know if it was hard for her?
Yeah, I remember getting a call about that, when she decided to step away.And what was interesting is, it was really about, can we prosecute a successful campaign, not so much because we don't believe we have support, but do we have the financial backing?See, there were a lot of people who couldn't envision her success.She is not saying anything different now than she always said, because she comes from a values place, and her values have been a through line throughout her life.So she is the same person.But suddenly, people are ready now.It was really more the electorate itself saying they were ready.And in some ways, perhaps that's how people get elected, that the electorate becomes ready for you.But in terms of what she was saying and doing, she's been doing that since the beginning.
Harris as Vice President
Were you surprised when you heard she was going to be on the vice presidential ticket?
I thought that was a very smart decision.I was not surprised at all, because I felt like, if Joe Biden is a smart man, he's picking Kamala Harris, because that's what's going to put him in the White House, and I had absolutely no doubt about that.
Something that we've been wondering about Kamala Harris that maybe you can help us understand is other historic—she's broken many barriers.
Yes.
And other candidates who have done it, or who have tried to, like Hillary Clinton, have emphasized that they were a historic candidate and that they would be the first, and that doesn't seem to be central to the message of Kamala Harris.
Exactly, because going back to—you mentioned her childhood.Going back to her childhood and that quote that everybody's heard, that “You may be the first, but make sure you're not the last,” from her mother, well, she is highly focused on not the gimmick of being first.She is focused on what is her impact, and if you stay true to that, I think that it works a lot better.But no, she's not going to—because that is not substantive to run on “first.”You have to run on who you are.So that takes you back to Howard, right?Because you can't be about the surface, and so she learned early on that it's not about the surface; it's about who you are.And she was steeped in that from the beginning, from Howard, where you drop everything about identity, and you're stripped to the core of who you are as a person, and then you have to succeed on that.And that is what she's bringing forward.
… And what do you think and your friends think when you hear all of the criticism during that first two years of the vice presidency, and even talk, should Joe Biden replace her on the ticket when he runs for reelection?
So he was a wise man who chose an excellent candidate, and I knew for sure that that ticket went to the White House because Kamala Harris was on it.I was recently in an airport, and you know all the delays that you have, so I'm sitting, and I'm talking to a woman, and she said, “You know, I voted for the first time when Biden and Harris ran together, because she was on the ticket.”And she was someone who had been—she said, “You know, I've been an activist.”You're sitting in an airport; people tell you a lot of different things.She said, “I've been an activist.I just thought no one was there for us, on either side, anyway.And so I never voted.”This woman told me, “I'm 53 years old.I never voted.The first election I voted in was that 2020 election, because I trusted that Kamala Harris would actually be looking out for the people.”And I just thought that was amazing.
And it sounds like it doesn't get to her, the criticism, those years.
I think nobody is a robot.No one fails to hear those kinds of things.But you have to realize that she grew up in a world where people didn't think much of women, people didn't think much of people of color, and if you can still succeed in the face of that, then these kinds of criticisms, many of which are uninformed—you know, things that you read in the paper aren't always the exact to the letter of what happened, or they don't always have the full background.And so I think she's very aware of that.
And she has a wonderful set of mentors worldwide.She's not the first woman to be in power, and other women in power have shared some of the unfairness that comes with that job.So no, they're not going to get to her.They're not going to get to her because she's very focused on the mission.
We talked about, during the Trump years, that you were saying that there was a sincerity in what she was saying and how she was responding to them.And I think the other moment people look to is, after the Dobbs decision, as she becomes a voice for an administration where the president doesn't even want to use the word “abortion,” and she sort of finds a place.Who do you see in the Kamala Harris in that response to Dobbs?
I see a Kamala Harris who is stepping forward for women and for our rights.It's very important—there's a complexity.Again, she knows the complexities, because she's an actual person who knows people, who have had to make really hard health decisions about their lives.And so she's stepping forward for that.And I think it's a unique opportunity to speak from the experience of knowing people who have faced these different issues and knowing what it's like to be a woman.And if you can't understand that, I don't know what to tell you.
Harris Becomes the Democratic Nominee for President
… I can't imagine being her and getting that phone call from Joe Biden saying he's stepping out of the race, and knowing she believes the stakes are American democracy is on the line and that it's on her shoulders.How does she react in a moment like that?
I don't know how she reacted in that moment.I can only tell you how, anytime something has happened, where you need to be ready, you need to be disciplined, you need to be focused, that she's that person.Remember, in college, we named her Cool, Calm and Collected.There's a reason for that, because it was remarkable.It wasn't just like, “Oh, look, everything is going super well, and we're just living these lives with rose petals, and aren't you calm in the midst of that?”That Calm, Cool and Collected was about the reaction to a storm.It was about the reaction to stress.We had no idea that she would go on to be the vice president and potentially the president of the United States.
Have you talked to her since?
So I have not talked to her since the announcement.
It must be— I mean as you're saying it, I was going to say it must be overwhelming, but maybe it's not overwhelming to her.
No, it's not overwhelming.… So I did have an opportunity to see the second gentleman, and he talked about that moment that he learned about it.And then he talked about it, that nobody thought it was coming and how when he got the message, he jumped up and ran to grab the phone.He picked up the phone.He had received several calls from her, and her message to him was, “We're getting to work,” and that was it.
He didn't say—and this was us, and we're all people who he knows are supporters.So again, this is the time.If you want to talk about, “Oh, and we all freaked out,” no, that's not Kamala.Kamala does not freak out.Kamala doesn't have the freak-out side of her wiring at all.She was on mission in that moment, and she, too, did not know, until she knew, and when she received that message, she was like, “Let's get to work.”
And when you see the 10,000 people in the stadium, and you see her giving the speech, what do you think?
I think, “Welcome, everyone.This is fabulous,” because this is what we've always known.I'm so pleased that people are ready to see a woman in this position, a woman of color in this position, and to trust her, and to see my dear friend and sorority sister, who is an extension of our family in a way, to say they're ready for her, because it's truly a symbol for all people, that once again, who you are is not what defines you in terms of who you are on the surface, what they see—your color, your background, your gender.What matters is what you're about, your mission and your values.And so seeing that embrace is so hopeful for me, because we are trying to all move forward in the spirit of justice and equality and all those things.
See, we came up at a time when we kind of had what I'll call World War II values, which is, the Yanks are coming, you know.We watched the Bing Crosby movies.That's our generation.We knew that that meant freedom, justice and the American way.We all said that.We grew up with the Pledge of Allegiance, “One nation, under God.”And to then see some of the things that you encounter along the way that are contrary to that, liberty and justice for all.When I see her on that podium, I see liberty and justice for all.
… So the last question we ask everybody is, what is the choice, in your opinion?What is the choice on the ballot for voters in November?
The choice on the ballot in November is, do we want the America that we were raised to think we should have: freedom, justice, equality for all people, and the ability to exercise our democracy?Which means, if you don't like it, you don't have to live with it.You actually get to have a vote about it.And that is what's on the ballot itself: your ability to have a voice in this country.
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