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Jim Clyburn
D-South Carolina
Jim Clyburn is a U.S. representative from South Carolina. His endorsement of Joe Biden is widely credited with propelling the candidate to victory in South Carolina’s 2020 presidential primary election.
The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Jim Gilmore on July 7, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Why Biden Runs in 2020
2019, former Vice President Joe Biden decides this is finally his moment.He's run for the presidency twice before, thought about it another time. Why?Why was this time the right time for Joe Biden to be running for the presidency?
Well, I don't know why.In fact, I don't know that I thought it was.I knew that if he decided to run, in all probability I would be supporting him.I had no idea who else would get in.However, I talked to a few people—Cedric Richmond of Louisiana was one of the people who I talked with.We talked about all the people who were talking about running, and we looked at what was sitting in the White House, and we just decided that Joe Biden was the kind of guy that could get elected…
And what was that conversation all about?Was that a conversation about what Joe Biden was intending to do, what his motivations for running were?What was the importance of that conversation?
Well, we were talking about the contrast—the bombastic current president and someone who would be more measured, more compassionate, someone who had the background and the experience that we thought were necessary to engender the confidence of the American people, someone who really was progressive enough yet moderate enough to be successful.So that's about all it was.
Why do you think Joe Biden is running?I mean, of course, he's 77; he could have taken his retirement and done the things that he'd never been able to do.Did there seem to be sort of a sense of responsibility almost that he thought that maybe he should have run in 2016 and he didn't, that he felt that President Trump was destroying the legacy of the Obama administration?What do you think was in him to make him decide that he was the right guy and he had to run?
Well, I don't know.I never asked him those questions.We didn't ask him what he thought.We told him what we thought.And I was in one of those meetings with Cedric.And so I just think that he always had a burning desire to run for president, twice before.Things did not work out.He'd spent eight years as Barack Obama's VP, and I think that everybody pretty much knew that Obama was committed to Hillary Clinton; at least it felt it.And in spite of what Joe Biden may or may not have wanted, you know, he was experiencing problems with having lost his son, what he went through with his wife and daughter earlier in his career.All those were personal considerations.
Were they controlling?I don't think as much as the politics.Politics at the time, from everybody, it seemed to indicate, that Hillary Clinton was going to run and that Obama favored Clinton.
Do you think that was a hard hit for him to take after this amazingly good relationship that they had for eight years and his career and how long he's been in public service?Do you think it was a hard hit when Obama sort of decided, as he wrote about, that Hillary Clinton was the right choice for that year?
It had to be tough on Biden.I never talked to him about that.But I'm 79 years old, at least for two more weeks, so I know what it's like to have, you know, certain fire—certain amount of fire in your belly and somebody's throwing cold water on it.So I—he never told me that, but I just feel that he must have felt some anxieties.
Biden’s Record on Busing
When he runs, he knows he's going to be hit with the kitchen sink and everything else, the refrigerator and everything else, because he's got a very long period of time that he's been in government service.And so he's attacked on his record.He's attacked on busing; he's attacked on the crime bills; he's attacked on segregationists.But there's that point in the primaries where Kamala Harris goes after him—and you've talked about his before—Kamala Harris goes after him for busing.What would you say about how his stance on busing from '74 to '82, anti-busing, how should that be viewed now, looking back at it?What's your point of view on that?
I think that if I were in Joe Biden's place, I would simply say, as I've said to him, "Looking back, I was not on the right side of history, but the fact of the matter is, I was where the vast majority of the American people were, including Black Americans."All the surveys at the time indicated that African Americans were against busing as a tool to integrate schools.1They were for school integration, yes.They wanted it to be done by neighborhoods.They wanted their children to feel safe in their own neighborhoods.
1
New York Times: Gallup Finds Few Favor Busing for Integration (Sept. 9, 1973)
I've talked to Mayor [Steve] Benjamin, the mayor of Columbia, who has told me how tough it was on him as a schoolchild being bused into an all-white neighborhood where he was not welcome and where he experienced all kinds of abuse.No parent wants that kind of abuse heaped upon their children.And Black folks have enough experience living in America to know what kind of abuse.
I sat in, I marched, and I know what kind of abuse comes from grown white people on little, young, Black children.I often think about those four darlings sitting in Sunday school in Birmingham, Alabama, and what happened to them.2Those were grown men who did that to those little girls.Nobody want their children subjected to that.
So Black people were not all that enamored with busing, and Joe Biden, I think, he knew it then.I don't know that he had the presence of thought as to how to answer that question, but I certainly would have answered it pretty much the way I just talked about it.
You sort of advised him at that point that you thought he didn't answer that question from Kamala Harris very well.What did you tell him?
I told him that if he felt the need to apologize, make the apology and move on.And that's what he did.And it just turns out that that took place in my hometown of Sumter, South Carolina, when he—and I really believe that that laid the foundation upon which we were able to make the endorsement work.I don't think it ever could have worked had it not been for that speech he gave in Sumter where I was molded as a child, where I grew up.And of course, my brother was sitting on the front row in that family health center that day—it wasn't a health center, but a family center at the church—leading the applause.So everybody had to applaud him for the speech because my brother Charles was sitting right there to make sure it happened.
Biden’s Relationship with Segregationists
Another allegation that's made against him is that he was too close to segregationists.… People will say that he was too close to segregationists when he was working in the early days in Congress.He worked on the crime bills; he worked on the busing bills.What's your thought about that?
Well, I don't think you could ever get too close to anybody.I think it all depends on what you allow to occur.If you are trying to pass legislation, I don't think you will find yourself in 100% agreement with everybody that you're trying to work with in order to get to the number of votes you need—51 in the Senate, sometimes you need 60; 218 in the House.You don't get there with everybody who look like you, who think like you.You make accommodations.And I don't believe you have to take on people's philosophy in order to get along with them.And Joe Biden has gotten along with people.
I think it says something for him, the person, for Strom Thurmond to ask him to eulogize him at his service.Same thing with Fritz Hollings.Two senators, both from South Carolina, poles apart politically, both eulogized by the same guy, simply because of the respect that they had for him.And I know a lot of people who disagree with me on almost everything but don't hesitate to work with me, so I feel the same way about other people.And Joe ought to be proud of having the ability to do that.
And I think you're being a bit dishonest if you say you only work with people who think like you.I don't know of one single person in the political arena who will adhere to that.If so, they'll never be successful.
Biden and Grief
Let's talk a little bit about the empathy question that you just brought up.A lot of people have felt the effect of Joe's ability to deal with grief.… Where does that come from?I know he even eulogized your wife when you lost her last year.What does that say about him?Where does that come from, and why is that important to understand?
Well, empathy is something that you internalize.Though you can express sympathy, you feel empathy.So I believe that Joe Biden sincerely empathizes with people, and it's because he's had those experiences.You don't lose a wife and child at the point in life that he did and not grow from it.I think that he had the same kind of an experience when he lost his son Beau.So I believe that Joe learned from all of that.
I think he also learned from having lost elections.I've lost a few myself, so I understand that you learn from those kinds of experiences.What you do, though is, like Muhammad Ali said one time, "I've never been knocked down; I was always getting up."So Joe has just never been knocked down; he’s always been getting up.
Biden and South Carolina
He doesn't do very well in the beginning of the primaries.But lo and behold, South Carolina, everything changes.What does the South Carolina, the 61% vote, the support of the Black community in South Carolina, what does that say about Joe Biden, the support of the Black community?How important was South Carolina to Joe Biden?
South Carolina was very, very important to Joe Biden.But I think that people miss that South Carolina was very important to George Bush, was very important to Hillary Clinton, very important to Barack Obama.It just so happened that South Carolina being where it is on the primary schedule has allowed it in recent years to play a very pivotal role.
And the reason is, people keep talking about the Black population.Believe me, South Carolina's only 28% African American.Louisiana, Mississippi all have—and Alabama—percentage-wise more Blacks than in South Carolina.The difference is South Carolina is a state that has four distinctly different cultures, and people who have studied the state will know that.And Joe Biden has spent a lot of time in South Carolina.He can relate to South Carolinians.I think he spent more time in South Carolina than any place outside of maybe Delaware and Pennsylvania.But for leisure time, interacting with people in their churches, in their restaurants, in their places of leisure, Joe Biden has done that in South Carolina.
And so it wasn't a real big leap for Black voters in South Carolina to rally behind Joe Biden.And I knew that.If you go into the Pee Dee of South Carolina, you'll get at a culture there that you ain't gonna get in South Carolina's Lowcountry.You go up to the Piedmont, the manufacturing part of the state, it's totally different from the Midlands.And if you learn how to navigate those different sets of experiences, you'll learn a lot.And I think Joe Biden learned a lot, and he put that to great work.
I think he did himself well in South Carolina, not just because of the endorsement; the endorsement had some impact, simply because people was waiting to see whether or not elected officials in South Carolina would rally around him.Everybody focused on my endorsement, but there were newspaper ads of other African American state senators, county commissioners and all rallying behind Biden.And I think it all worked together.
The Black community, though, did support him overwhelmingly, and it's an important issue, I mean, especially Black women.The importance of Black women, Black voters in general to the Democratic Party, to Joe Biden specifically, why is there that support?… What about Joe Biden draws votes of the Black community?
Well, his experiences.You know, Joe Biden has weathered some real tough times, and most African Americans—most—have weathered some real tough times.And people tend to identify with folks who have had similar backgrounds and experiences.And so I don't think it's anything more than that…
Biden’s Response to Crisis
… Biden announces for the presidency this time around in a moment of crisis that we've never seen, or rarely seen in this country: the economy, the COVID-19, George Floyd's murder and the resultant civil rights demonstrations in the streets, the debate in the streets about civil rights, something—the intensity of which we haven't seen in some ways since '68.Why is he the right man for this moment in history, United States history? …
Well, I think I've been saying it.He's had the background; he has the experiences in government, out of government, personal and political.I just think that many times the moment needs to be seized upon, and I just think that moment is here for Joe Biden.
Remember, he announced before COVID-19, before George Floyd.He announced after Trump, of course, and he was perfectly positioned to draw the kind of contrast between his approach to governance and what people were experiencing with Trump.So he gets in, and all these other things begin to happen.And I think people are beginning to see that he is a man for this moment, and nobody will spend a whole lot of time comparing him to the perfect candidate.They're going to compare him to the alternative and not the Almighty.
The Choice Between Biden and Trump
The last question normally in the film is based upon the title of the two-hour program, which is, The Choice 2020.What is the choice between Biden and Trump?
The choice is whether or not this country will survive its most significant challenge since Andrew Johnson.Just that simple.Whether or not we will survive what I think is the most significant challenge this country has had since the presidency of Andrew Johnson.
Now, there have been some other presidencies—Woodrow Wilson's one that come to mind—that took this country to a dark place on the racial front.Woodrow Wilson was an intellectual, a racist intellectual, but an intellectual that softened the racism that lurked within him.Not so with Andrew Johnson, and not so with Donald Trump.
So the choice in 2020 is whether or not this country will continue its pursuit of perfection.That's what we're all about.We aren't perfect, but we're in pursuit of perfection.We have a president now who has no interest in pursuing a more perfect union.His only interests seem to be to resurrect the darkest points of our history, to honor the most dishonorable people of our history and to hold on to a period of our history that most right-thinking Americans would love to put behind us.
Biden’s Early Political Motivations
… In the beginning of Joe Biden's career—'72 he runs, from Delaware—he's come back from law school to Wilmington around '68, after Wilmington went through the riots and the National Guard on their streets longer than any other city in America.He talks about it in his books, how this has motivated him, that civil rights was what motivated him to get into politics to begin with.I don't know if you've had a conversation with him about that, but I'd like to know from you, looking back, I know this is well before you knew the man, but looking back at the beginning of his career, what do you think motivated him back as a 29-year-old to run for the Senate of the United States? …
I think he had genuine feelings about what was happening in the streets of America.I think he really did.In 1968, I believe he was motivated by that.And I also believe that he was a 29-year-old with a pretty good amount of ego, which is required in this business.And he decided to pursue it.It happens to a lot of us, some earlier than others.But I don't know that there was anything outside the ordinary that motivated him.Every 29-year-old would like to change the world.
He wins by less than 3,000 votes.Some people have looked at the fact that he did have support in Wilmington's Black community, and there's plenty of stories about his early working at the pool and everything else that sort of helped define how he learned more about what was going on in the Black community.How important was the Black vote in Delaware to begin with, and I guess later on as well, in helping him politically?And why is that?
Well, I've talked to a few people who knew him back then.They had a relationship with him.It was more social than anything else.I don't know that they spent a lot of time talking about politics.You're sitting around a pool, and you're the white guy who's a lifeguard at a swimming pool on the Black side of town, I don't think you're talking politics.Well, you just got to know people, some by their nicknames and all.
So he learned how to build relationships.I think a lot of that is what endeared him to a lot of people over the years.And of course, times have changed; the touchy-feely kind of politics that he's used to, it may be a good thing that he's hunkered down with COVID-19.It keeps him out of doing chin to chin or head butt to head butt, the kind of stuff that people seem to have fallen out of favor with.
So I don't know, Joe Biden just had those experiences that many of us have growing up in the community that I grew up in. …
To some extent, what he represents is the fact that politics is personal in a lot of ways.
Always is. Always is.People say it's local.I don't believe so.It's more personal than local.
Biden and the Crime Bills
The crime bills—let's talk about that, because he's going to get a lot of grief from Trump about that.He certainly had to deal with it in the primaries.The '86, the '88 and the '94 bills.Let's start with the '94 bill.There were some really good things that came out of it, some things that are talked about a lot—the Violence Against Women Act, the ban on assault rifles.The importance of the '94 bill? …
Well, you just named two of them—the Violence Against Women Act, the ban on assault weapons, community policing.There was all some—also some stuff in the '94 crime bill that reduced mandatory minimums.That didn't start in '94; that was back in 1986.So there are a lot of things that get lumped into the 1994 crime bill that don't necessarily belong there.And drug courts; that’s in that crime bill.
So what I'd say to people, and I would hope that the campaign is preparing him to respond to those kinds of attacks in a very concise way, and that is simply this: We passed the '94 crime bill in the spring of 1994.Newt Gingrich took over the Congress in the fall of 1994 and set out to gut all the good things out of the crime bill.The assault weapon ban went away.The Violence Against Women, though we have now since revived it, it went away after the crime bill.Community policing went away and not to return yet.And he is now offering to return it.
So talk about the good things in that bill.Yes, there were some unintended consequences.But the world was different for all of us then, and that's why a significant number of members of the Congressional Black Caucus, including me, voted for that crime bill, because the worst experience I had in 1992 running for the Congress was in a 100% Black neighborhood in the little town of Atlantic Beach, South Carolina, when I had my head handed to me when I came out against mandatory minimums.That didn't come with the '94; that was already here in '92.And I campaigned against mandatory minimums, and those people almost ran me out of the room because of the experiences they were having with the proliferation of the drugs in their neighborhoods.They were pushing for those kinds of penalties.
Joe Biden needs to just answer the question concisely that way and say: “Let's move on.And let's bring back community policing.Let's bring back the Assault Weapons Ban.And let's bring back drug courts.Bring back these good things we did in '94 that the Republicans ripped out of the bill.” …
The harsher aspects of it, though.How does one balance off the fact the effect on Black communities, the number of young Black men that ended up in prison, how it broke down the communities because of this, how it—the long-term effects of it, the fact that the relations with police forces also got worse?Those elements of those crime bills that came about, why didn't we understand back then the consequences?… Is that a black mark on his career, or is that just the realities of the way politics evolve?
It's the realities of elections.There's a 1994 election, November '94, that changed the calculus.That's what the reality is.The same reality we got with this presidency.You know, we argued about Hillary Clinton not being perfect.No, she wasn't.And a lot of people got angry; 13% of African American males voted for Trump.What did that get for them?Realities of elections.Same thing coming this November.We can argue about Joe Biden not being perfect, and we end up with the most imperfect person continuing in the White House that's ever lived in there.
And do you think Joe Biden gets and understands in his gut the realities of how these laws like this have affected the Black community in a detrimental way?
Absolutely.We've talked about it, sure.He's almost remorseful about it.I am, too.But that doesn't change the realities of what the world was like when the bills were voted on.
Biden as Vice President
So the 2008 election.Obama chooses Biden as his vice president. Why?… What does he bring to the administration?
He brought a lot of legislative experiences.You know, Barack Obama had only been in Washington a couple of years.Didn't know the culture of the Senate.Joe Biden knew all of that.He had a great relationship on both sides of the aisle.I think he had everything that Obama needed in order to be a successful president.I never asked Obama why he picked him.I'm just assuming from what I know about politics and what I know about both people, that that's why he did it.
How good a vice president was he?
I thought he was a great vice president.I think one of the ways you can tell, and for whatever reason, he didn't spend his time putting together a campaign for the presidency.He spent his time being loyal to Barack Obama, being—I thought he was great to those of us who stood to gain significantly from the administration.I talked to African American mayors all over the country who talk about what a great relationship they had with Joe Biden and how he was very supportive of their efforts whenever they came to Washington and interacted with him.
So I think he was great.He was an outstanding vice president.
First Meeting with Biden
When was the first time you ever met him, and what was your reaction to him?What was he like?
I think I met Joe Biden right after he got reelected to the Senate.He got elected, of course, and of course after his first reelection, having been elected at 29, he was just at 35-years-old now, the age that makes you eligible to be president of the United States under the Constitution.And people saw in him a potential president.And Donald Fowler, here in Columbia, South Carolina, had Biden here in Columbia in his home and invited me and my wife to come and meet him.And that's when I met him, in the home of Donald Fowler.
What did you think of him?
I thought a lot of him.I—you know, like most people—you think he talks a lot now, he talked a lot then.
Why is that?Why does he speak so much?He's famous for the fact that he grew up as a kid with a stutter and was bullied, and now you've got this guy who makes a hell of a speech, everybody admits, including himself, that he doesn't know when to stop.What is that about him?
Well, I guess he's trying to make up for lost time.
Biden as Obama’s Surrogate on Race
Could be.So another aspect of his vice presidency is Obama is very careful about racial issues.He knows he has to be.He doesn't want to be the first Black president; he wants to be a Black president for the country.What was that role, and why did Joe fill that role so well, being sort of the moderator and going to funerals and dealing with people grieving after tragedies, either in the Black community or in the police force?Why did he get that role, and how did he fill it?
Well, I don't know exactly why.I think he was perfectly fitted for it.As I said, his background, his experiences, the fact that he had interacted with Black people all of his life, the fact he suffered tragedy.All of these things I think led to him having internalized what a lot other people were living.
And so it may be that those are experiences that Barack Obama did not have.
And lastly, how important is this election, the 2020 election?
It is the most important election, in my opinion, since 1860.
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