The FRONTLINE Interviews
Jim Jordan
R-Ohio
Jim Jordan is a U.S. representative from Ohio. He was a founding member of the House Freedom Caucus and has been a strong supporter of President Trump.
The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Michael Kirk on June 16, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Jordan’s Relationship with Trump
You talk with the president with some frequency on the telephone?You’re friends with him in that sense?
Yeah.I mean, we talk often.In fact, I spoke with the president yesterday, spoke to him the day before.But some weeks it’s, you know, once or twice a week; other weeks we’ll go a whole week, and I don’t speak to him every couple weeks.But yeah, I always enjoy the conversation with the president, always do.
What it’s like, Congressman?
Well, I tell everyone when I’m out talking in our district, when I’m talking around the country, that I wish every single American would have a chance to meet the president, because when you’re around him, you cannot help but like him.There is a—there is an energy, there is a charisma about the president that is contagious.You can tell he loves the country.I mean, he loves our veterans, our military, our police officers.He loves regular hardworking families.And it comes through.And frankly, I think you see this connection, this bond that is formed, you see it at the rallies.You know, there’s a big one that’s coming up, and you see what happens in those events.People connect with the president because they understand he’s fighting for them.And that’s what I so appreciate about him.And I wish every American could have that same experience, because you get a completely different feel for the president than what the swamp tries to portray to the country.And I wish, like I said, I wish every American could talk to him.
Trump’s Temperament
Do you get a sense of the range of his emotions, the times when things are good and the times when things aren’t so good?And what’s that like?
Yeah, you do.You’ve got remember, no president, at least in my lifetime, no president has had to endure what President Trump’s went through.I mean, the constant attacks from the press, the constant attacks from the Democrats, and frankly constant attacks from some Republicans.So yeah, you see the—like any human being, he’s had to deal with all that.But I think he handles it amazingly well.I don’t know anyone else who could handle what he’s had to go through in the last three and a half years, you know, four years, frankly, when you think about the campaign.
What is it about him, you think, has allowed him to handle the blast furnace of Washington, as you say, the swamp, the cave dwellers, the press?What is it about this man from what you can tell in your relationship with him?
He’s just tough.I mean, he’s tough.I remember, I typically don’t get into many details of conversation I have with the president, but one time I was talking with the president.I said: “Mr. President, I know what I have to live through.I know the attacks I get, the lies that get told about me.”And I said, “You get it a thousand times worse, and you get it every second of every day.”And he just said: “Yeah, Jim, but what are you going to do?You’ve just got to keep fighting.”
And so it’s just this rugged toughness that he has, that he’s able to keep fighting through it and trying to get done what he told the American people he was going to do.And I think he’s had an amazing, amazing first term and amazing record of actually accomplishing the things he said he was going to accomplish.
So it’s not a pose.It’s the real deal.
No, this president is as real as it gets.I mean, I think that’s why so many Americans appreciate him.That’s why these rallies—what, they’ve got like a million people who want to come to this rally in Tulsa on Saturday.So—and that’s why every one of them are sold out.I’ve been to them.They’re amazing.They’re truly amazing.I’m sure you’ve been to some, too, Michael, but it’s an amazing experience to be there.And the energy in the arena or the stadium, or wherever it happens to be, the energy that’s present is—people appreciate a fighter, and they appreciate someone that they think is fighting for them.
In this film that we’re making now, it’s a biography, a political biography.So we go back in time into history and try to figure out all the things, the qualities that you’ve observed in him.And maybe you can help us if we go back to some of the places where you may or may not have a thought about or a memory of or whatever.Let me ask you, when was the first time Donald Trump came on your personal radar?
Well, I mean, we’d all heard about President Trump prior to him getting involved in politics.First time I met him was on the campaign trail in Ohio in ’16, that fall.And I just, like I said, I’ve liked him ever since I got a chance to meet him, every chance since I saw him, you know, fight the way he did during that campaign and the way he’s fought during his first term.
Did you ever see him when he was on <I>The Apprentice</I>?
Not really.I watched.I mean, I saw a few highlights, but I didn’t really watch the show.
One of the things a lot of people we’ve talked to love to talk about is how much he learned about America by being on that show, how—it’s very powerful, of course, to be in people’s living rooms for 14 years in the way anybody who was in your living room every night—more than a movie star, this is a TV guy.He’s in your living room, and you’re learning about him, and people, I think, liked the quirkiness, but they also liked something else.And I wonder if you could help me know what your voters probably liked about what they saw of Donald Trump on <I>The Apprentice</I>.
Well, I think what most voters like is somebody who wasn’t part of the swamp, somebody from the outside who was running.They were at a point in ’16 where they were frustrated with Republicans, frustrated with Democrats, frustrated with the city, frustrated with the federal government and what the president has, I think, properly labeled the swamp.And they were looking for someone who was going to come here and shake it up.And they found their guy.And he has done just that.
So I think that’s what people appreciate.I have business guys in our district and others in our district who have been supporters of me in the various campaigns I’ve been in over the years, and they really appreciate the president.They appreciate his straightforwardness, his frankness and his toughness.And some of them were for the president as soon as he announced; it was after the, you know, after he secured the nomination.So they wanted someone who’s going to shake this town up, and that’s exactly who they got.
Has he ever talked to you, or do you know much about the arc of his life?
No, we don’t get into that.We talk more, you know, issues that are in front of Congress and in front of—that the president has to deal with.I do think, the one thing I have sort of noticed, I think the president thinks like an athlete.I think he thinks like he—like so many people, the competition, and there’s the success and failure, the winning and losing of athletics.I think he has that mindset, which I always think is positive.I think this country is—you know, this is—so much about America is about competition, and I think the president understands that and appreciates that.So I definitely get that sense when I’m around the president.I think that’s a good thing.I think Americans want someone who is a winner as their leader, and President Trump certainly is.
The 'Access Hollywood' Tape
We’re looking a lot at the crises that he and Joe Biden have faced in their lives.And this is the <I>Access Hollywood</I> moment.A lot of Republicans fled from him.We’ve talked to a lot of people who were in the room that day.A lot of Republicans fled from him.…What did you see?And did you stick with him?
Yes.In fact, that, the very weekend that that, you know, tape became public, my wife, Polly, was—got on a plane that Sunday.I think the story broke on a Friday afternoon.That Sunday my wife—Saturday or Sunday, she got on a plane and flew to North Carolina.Got on a bus with my best friend in Congress, now the president’s chief of staff, got on a bus with Debbie Meadows and some other Women for Trump supporters, and they traveled around the state of North Carolina for a couple days supporting the president.So yeah, that was—that was—this president, we were—he was our nominee.We were for him.He—we thought he was going to be able to get in here and shake this town up.And so yeah, we supported the president all the way through.
So when you saw that happening on Friday afternoon/evening, tell me what you were thinking he must be thinking and how he was going to be able to withstand it.It’s a kind of unprecedented moment.He does it, of course.Tell me what you saw happening and what you thought he was—
You know, look, every—I don’t think politicians are unique.I think every American and every American family’s had to deal with tough issues in their life, and you know, by the grace of God you get through them and you move on and you stay positive, and that’s what the president did.And he fought through it, and obviously did it in a successful way, as evidenced by what happened a month and a half later when he won the election.
So it—I think it shows the, again, the word I keep using, the toughness of the president, the resiliency of this president, the idea that, OK, we’ve had a setback, but the—we’re going to keep fighting for the things I told the American people I was going to fight for.And the competition, the game, the election, whatever term you want to use, is not over.We’re going it play till the end of the game.We’re going to play all nine innings and extra.We’re going to do whatever it takes.Use whatever sports cliché you want.
And that’s the president’s attitude.And I like that.And I know so many other Americans like it as well.
What was he up against?
Well, he was up against every single Democrat, all the mainstream press and a bunch of Republicans.And that hasn’t changed.Now—and in spite of that, in spite of that relentless opposition for four years, not to mention the FBI investigating him on something that was ridiculous, and they knew it was ridiculous, but yet they continue to do it, that turned into the Mueller report, in spite of all that, no one has ever had—no president has ever had to deal with what he’s had to deal with.In spite of all that, taxes cut, regulations reduced, prior to the coronavirus the best economy ever, lowest unemployment in 50 years, out of the Iran deal, out of the Paris climate deal—two things he told the American people he was going to do; building the wall, like he told the American people he was going to do; putting the embassy in Jerusalem, like he told the American people he was going to do; renegotiating trade agreements, like he told the American people he was going to do.
All those things get accomplished in spite of everyone against him, almost everyone, what seems like everyone, and in spite of one issue after the other that the Democrats tried to make into a big thing that turned out to not be a big thing.That is an amazing record.And I do think on Election Day the American people are going to remember all that and he’s going to win reelection.
The Tea Party, the Freedom Caucus, and Trump
You were a founding member of the Freedom Caucus, down in there with Mark Meadows and others.Tea Party comes to town in ’10.You’re in in ’06?
Yeah, I got here—election ‘06, came in ‘07.
So that energy, Congressman Jordan, that was in Congress from the so-called Tea Party Congress up through the Freedom Caucus, and he comes to town.What kind of energy was waiting for him from you guys?
Great question.That’s exactly what happened.You had that Tea Party wave that was building, that sort of culminated in 2010, taking back the House, then the frustration with us not getting some things done that we told the American people we were going to do relative to repealing Obamacare, relative to certain spending issues, relative to holding people accountable for the scandals in the Obama administration, like Lois Lerner targeting the conservatives and Tea Party members around the country.All that builds, and along comes this guy who says he’s going to take it all on, take on the swamp.
And it’s like, that movement and that momentum, I think, coalesced behind President Trump and was a big reason why he won, because we all saw someone in him that, you know what, this guy is going to change this town.He is going to fight against and do the things that we thought we were going to get down in ’10, ’11, ’12, ’13, ’14, in those era—in those years.He’s going to have a chance to get that done, and that’s why I think people supported him.
How did you know?How could you tell?
Well, part of it was what he had to deal with in the campaign.And then as soon as he gets in office, you see how, in ’17, you saw this town when it was the whole Russian collusion narrative, which was a bunch of baloney, but every Democrat said, “Oh, we need a special counsel,” and all the press said, “We need a special counsel,” and a bunch of Republicans said, “We need a special counsel,” and this whole move to go after the president based on something that we now know was completely bogus.So you just—you just saw it all.And yet you saw him persevere through it all.Again, I’ve said it several times, but that’s what I really appreciate about the guy.
And that’s the thing, of course.We’re trying not find out where does that come from?Where does that come from?Here’s a rich guy, from New York City, lives in a tower.Limousines take him everywhere.It’s not exactly like he’s Abraham Lincoln or he’s you or somebody who lives in Middle America and understands what Middle Americans are up against.This guy was born with a silver spoon.He has everything.And yet you and your voters and other Americans love the guy, stick with him.Why?Where does it come from, you think, in him?
Yeah, it’s funny you say that, Michael, because, I’ve said this before.John Boehner grew up in a bar in Cincinnati, come to this town, and after he’s been here for 20-some years, is a—is establishment.1And President Trump grows up in Manhattan, grows up in New York City and comes from a wealthy family, but he is a populist and a man of the people.And I don’t know what it is.I think it’s just a character of this president and how he connects.And people understand he’s fighting for them.And I think that’s a special, special thing.And it’s true: He does fight for regular Americans across this country, and they appreciate it.
Trump and Crisis
Were you talking to him on the phone during the Sessions recusal and then the firing of Comey?2
I’m sure I did.I don’t remember exactly when.Not right in the—you know, there was those eight days, I always call them eight days in May, when Comey’s fired on the 19th—or excuse me, on May 9, and Bob Mueller’s named on the 17.I don’t know that I talked to him in that interim.I may have, I don’t know.But I’ve talked to him about, you know, those kind of issues obviously over time, and certainly issues that impacted the whole Trump Russian investigation that Mueller did.We’ve talked about that over time.But I don’t know if I talked to him right when it happened.
How’d he pull himself out of that crisis?That’s one of the crises we’re studying.How did he do it, Congressman?
Well, just, again, it’s this can-do attitude that he has.You know, you think about what happened during that time.We still got taxes cut, still addressed regulations, still did the embassy in Jerusalem, still did the pulling out of the Iran deal, still did all those things he told the American people he was going to do.He just did his job, and he did it well.And I think that’s the way you have to deal with all these kind of things, I think in any business, but certainly in this business.When you’re getting attacked from the press on things that aren’t true, you’ve just got to stay focused on doing what you told the people you were going to get done.And he did that.And there’s some—I think that’s just the only way you can deal with it.And he certainly did.
When the whistleblower—finally that information comes out [about Ukraine].Were you talking to the president around that time?And did he know, here he comes again?Just as he thought the weather was smooth sailing, here we go again.
Yeah. No, exactly.And that’s exactly, I think, how the president thought and so many of us thought, like we just get through this Mueller thing, and now here come the Democrats again based on a conversation that was fine.There was nothing wrong with the conversation that the president of the United States had with the president of Ukraine.Nothing at all.And yet the Democrats launch an impeachment investigation based on some anonymous whistleblower with first—no firsthand knowledge that was biased against the president.Give me a break.
So they do it.And when they go through this, the country, rightly, saw this is ridiculous.But we had to live through several more months of the Democrats’ relentless attack on the president with no factual basis to it.…
So those facts have never changed, will never change, have never changed, are never, ever, ever going to change, and yet the Democrats launched an impeachment effort and put the country through, after two years of Mueller, put the country through another six, seven months of this craziness, so just a year before the election, that, you know, you’re obviously doing this story on.
So it’s ridiculous, and I think the American people saw it for what it was.
His presidency is filled with crisis after crisis, almost daily in some cases.I’ve reached the point, and I’ve been doing this 40 years—I’ve reached the point where I don’t want to look at the newspaper in the morning.What’s it going to be today, right?And that seems to be, in some ways, his approach, his style.It just really is the fight of the day.
I don’t know if that’s his style.I think that’s just the fact of life.That’s the left.That’s the press.That’s the swamp.You know, you take on the swamp, the swamp fights back.And but that’s a testament to the president’s—I think that’s a testament to the president’s tenacity in actually pushing against the swamp.So when the swamp fights back, there’s going to be this real tension every single day.But as I’ve said a couple times, in spite of that, the results have been amazing for the American people.And I think the American people have common sense and have a way of remembering that, come Election Day. …
His public persona is so different than that.He gets out there, and he comes out, takes the gloves off and lets it fly, even around the coronavirus time.I realize he’s in combat.I don’t know what it is in the wrestling world where you’re from, but there’s that moment where the match starts, and in you go, and that is every single day, it seems like.Even the daily press conferences, these were combat: three falls and you’re out.It’s amazing.
I told—I’ve talked to—both our boys competed in wrestling, and I’ve told them, I said, the president does have that mindset.And it’s a mindset that’s on the offense.In competition, in sports, you don’t—I always say the best way is to be on the offense.That’s how you score points; that’s how you win.And the president has that mindset, that he’s going to be on the offense.In the example you gave, when it’s dealing with the press in these press scrums on, when he’s getting ready to get on Marine One, on the White House lawn, he’s on the offense.And I like it.I really do.I think it’s the proper mindset.I think it’s a mindset that’s consistent with America.It’s an American mindset, and it’s a mindset that I think the American people appreciate as well.
But yeah, he definitely has that.And it is—I think that’s a good thing.
But where’s the empathy?One speech, one fireside chat, one anything.Is he afraid it shows weakness or something to sit there and hold people’s hands for a while?
No.I think, again, in quieter moments and more, you know, those more private settings, you see that from the president.You do.And it’s—again, doesn’t always project that at a speech or when he’s jousting with the press, but it’s there.And again, I think, like I said, I wish everyone could see that.But you just can’t; it’s just the nature, you know, nature of the way life works.
Trump and the George Floyd Murder
Then the protests come.George Floyd is murdered, and it starts and it comes.And it feels like the kind of thing he can’t really control.It’s not really the swamp that’s coming.It’s not even really the press, although the press is, of course, reporting all of it.But that and what happened and his response—strength, toughness, law and order.All of those things are the strong impulses that come from his life.What were you thinking?What was he like during that time?
Well, I think the president has handled it amazingly well.It’s a tough situation.You know, we had a hearing where George Floyd’s brother came and testified a week after the-a week and a half after the terrible tragedy that took place in Minneapolis.We had the sister of Pat Underwood.Pat Underwood was an officer killed during the riots in Oakland, and she came and testified.So it’s tough.And I think the president understands the basic facts and truths here, the basic principles.What happened in Minneapolis is a tragedy.It’s just wrong as wrong could be.And those killers deserve swift justice, and Mr. Floyd’s family deserves swift justice for those killers.
The president also understands that peaceful protest is—it’s part of the American experience; it’s part of our First Amendment liberties.And we’re all for it.We’ve all engaged in it.But there is a big difference—and the president was clear about this—there is a big difference between peaceful protests and rioting and violence and mayhem and going after police officers, in some cases killing police officers.Big, big difference.
And the president has, I think, you said in your question or your comments, that the president understands that the vast majority of law enforcement people are good folks and they are risking their lives every day in our communities to protect our communities.
So those are sort of the fundamental principles.And finally the fourth one I would throw in is, the president understands, and so do the American people, that this idea of defunding the police and dismantling and getting rid of police departments is crazy.It is completely crazy.
So I think he understands those fundamental principles, and the policy that develops is developed out of an understanding of those basic elements.And that’s how we move forward.And again, I think that’s just common sense and consistent with what America believes.
The Lafayette Square Photo Op
And the decision to do the Lafayette Park or Lafayette Square clearing as he walks across, how does that fit from your point of view, and maybe his, the guy you know and like and admire and support?
I thought it was exactly the right thing to do.To walk across to a church that just the night before rioters were trying to burn down, to walk across to that church where so many presidents had actually worshiped in, and to show the American people the church is still standing, the leader of our country is standing right here, holding a Bible, holding the Holy Scripture, I thought it was exactly the right thing and the right message to send.And I’ve talked with people in west central Ohio, which I get the privilege of representing, and others who agree that it was—it was very appropriate for the president to do that.And I thought it sent the right message to the American people.
Of course the argument is, wait a minute, you can’t use the United States military against the American people, even if they are protesters, even if they are—unless they’re really seriously into destroying things.How can you even threaten to do that, create a battle space out of cities?And he would say what?
Well, I mean, there’s been talk about using the Insurrection Act.That hasn’t been invoked.He wanted to, I think, show the American people that the church was still standing, the president was willing to walk across there.I think he did that.And Secret Service and folks made sure that he could get to that location.
I think that’s all it is.I think that, you know, there are some who want to make it more than that.But I think it’s a positive message sent to the country at an important time.
The Choice Between Biden and Trump
So now the final question that I always ask everybody: What’s the choice?
Well, you want to go back to some of the policies that I think failed under the Obama administration, you go with Joe Biden.You want someone who will do what they said and get things done, you vote for President Trump.I think it’s really that clear.This president is doing what he said he would do.Joe Biden has switched positions to appease the far left in his party and everything else, and that to me is the clear choice.And again, I think people in Ohio and the Midwest, they see it.They see it just as plain as day.And it’s going to be a big win for the president.
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