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Judy Lemons

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Judy Lemons

Former Pelosi Chief of Staff

Judy Lemons served as Nancy Pelosi’s chief of staff from 1987 to 2002.

The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE's Michael Kirk on Nov. 15, 2021. It has been edited for clarity and length.

This interview appears in:

Pelosi’s Power

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Pelosi’s Upbringing

Let's start in Baltimore, back in the 1940s.Who were Nancy Pelosi's mother and father?

Well, from my knowledge, he may have been the mayor, but it was a matriarchal family.And from what I understand and have gleaned from some of Nancy's conversations and reading about some of the history at that time, that her mother really was very, very dominant in the family and probably a community social worker, working out of their own home on Albemarle.

And then later her father came to Congress.But I do believe, even with his position, that her mother was probably the real powerhouse in the family and that Nancy has gotten so much of her inspiration from her mother.

And her brother had always said that Nancy was a thoroughbred.And I remember on the day Nancy was sworn in, in 1987, we had a small dinner at a hotel that evening, and Tommy got up and talked about his sister in the most glowing terms, and with humor and love and everything.But he described her as a thoroughbred.

And to me, personally, the sort of capsule I have of Nancy is that she's a female phenom, that she is just an extraordinary person. And watching her career from 1987,I was there at the beginning and for most, almost half of her career, and I just was so amazed.There were some people who would go back and say, well, Nancy went from the kitchen to the convention.And I think that that was really a mistake in not realizing that Nancy had a lot of statewide involvement in California politics and—I'm sorry.

Don't get too far ahead. …Let's go back in the time capsule.We're in Baltimore."Tommy the Elder," as you say, a big, powerful presence; big, dynamic outside in the world.But inside running the "favor file" is "Big Nancy," "Little Nancy's" mother. …He stopped her from having her own business.Nancy must have seen all that, too.In a world of four brothers and a powerful father, what did she learn about sexism at an early age?

Yeah, and being the only girl, the youngest.And of course I wasn't there, so I can only speculate what that—how she digested that and how she incorporated it in her worldview moving forward.But I would think that it was a real eye-opener and that she was in, you know, in that era where you started to realize, wow, things don't look quite right, and I don't feel as comfortable as I think I could feel if I had more opportunity.And by the way, why don't I have more opportunity?

So I think a lot of those questions started to arise, most likely for Nancy and a lot of young women at that stage, and that it's questioning.You begin to question.You come into early adulthood, you raise your family, and you just begin to question the status quo and why isn't there a better space for women.

And it was, well, you have women's issues.Well, Nancy didn't think that there were just women's issues.She thought that women should be involved in every aspect of our society, our world, our governance, you know, from international issues.And she proved that in her career, that every issue has to do, and she will always say this: "Children, children, children.That's why I came to Congress."And everything that we do affects future generations and children.

So I think that was a very compelling force for her, and to change the system, to break out of it.She had ideas, she had energy, she had vigor.She had a huge contribution to make to the world.And why not?Why not have a chance?And so, if you have much intelligence at all, you start to question these things.

When you read the biographies, and this goes to your point, Nancy Pelosi basically had two options: Be a nun or a mom.

Be a nun or a mom.It was like be a nun or run, and she ran.But she—but OK, most men, by the time Nancy came to Congress, what was she, 46 years old or something?Most men, by that time, have had a seamless career up until that age, in those times.Nancy came at age 46.This is her second career.She had the career with the kids and, you know, five kids in what, six or seven years.Can you imagine having that many kids, traveling back and forth from Baltimore to San Francisco with five kids under the age of 6 or 7?So she—that was formidable.

I think she picked up some skills.If nothing else, she could organize chaos.

Right, right.Yeah, she could deal with a raucous caucus then.

Pelosi’s Early Career

As you say, her career starts at 46.Do you think when she got married to Paul, she literally was putting her political ambitions aside and knew that the day would come?Does she set it aside for a while and then decide to step back in?

Well, of course I can only imagine, but what I imagine is it was love; you know, that she fell in love.She was in love with her husband, she was in love with her children, and that was that part of her life.And that involved, you know, true and strong commitment.But that was out of love that she had in her heart, no matter what.And I don't think at that point, when you feel that kind of love, and the strong urge to nurture and to do that project, if you'd call it a project, to do that project well, and that would have always been Nancy's motivation, to do, to take on something big—a big family, a big move, a big change in her life—and to do it well.

So to me, that fits in with her personality that I know.And I don't think she would have—who knows?—that she would have considered it a sacrifice at that moment, that it was: "I've taken this on. I'm committed, and this is done out of love, and I intend to see it through."So I don't think that she would have considered herself deprived of any opportunity, maybe, at that point.I don't know.She may tell you something different.

When you look back, when she looks back, maybe you can help us understand, what do you think her biggest setback in life was, at that point?

I'm not aware of anything.I've heard of some things, mostly having to do with loss, you know, family loss or personal loss or—and, you know, when her father died, you know, that was a very, very difficult time for her. …

I know that she lost a niece to AIDS from a blood transfusion.And there were times—and then, of course, with the death of her mother.But I know that she must have really felt a lot of pain in her life at those times of loss.And I don't know if there was a turning point or something that was just so utterly tragic that it moved her to another space of thinking or doing.I don't really know.

She doesn't talk about things like that.

No, in fact—do you know of something?She talks very little about her personal feelings, her personal life.It's all work.When I worked for Nancy, it was all about the job and getting it done and doing it well and being proud of a product.

Why do you think that's her approach?

I think it's her DNA.And I think Tommy's not far from offering the truth: She's a thoroughbred.It's in her DNA.She absolutely is driven.She has intense energy that you can't even comprehend.And I think that's why she's so underrated, and people have not begun to realize the stamina this woman has, the stoicism and the drive.

Tell us about when Nancy first comes, and you meet her in 1986 or '87.What was the world she was walking into as a brand-new congressperson?Tell me about the Washington world that Nancy arrived in.

Well, I think, you know, that was a pretty battering special election that she'd been through with, you know, a whole spectrum of candidates.The Burton machine had been blown apart—gays, environmentalists and labor—and Nancy was able to carve out her own territory in the community of San Francisco.

And she had realized this: that in '85-'86, she'd been the finance director for the Senate campaign committee and had been super successful and had become very, very close to George Mitchell.So she didn't come to Washington—this wasn't her first rodeo.She was a practiced bronco rider.She had helped—she had totally put together the '84 convention.She'd been in state politics and state chair.She had helped win back and win votes in the Senate in 1986.

And George Mitchell and Democratic senators at the time had a dinner to thank Nancy Pelosi for this.And I remember she told the story that she was coming from San Francisco, and she had brought a cake that was in the model of a Capitol, and she was so worried about that cake surviving the trip.She wanted to present it to George Mitchell and the new Democratic senators.

So she had been tested.She was just genetically tough.The world she walked into was about appearances over substance, as far as women were concerned.And it was not an easy time, but Nancy was the type of person who believed in "look, listen and learn before you launch."And she did that.But you have to realize, within a year and a half of her winning the special election, all of these tumultuous things had happened.There was the San Francisco earthquake; we were going to war in Iraq [the Gulf War]; there was the AIDS epidemic … and Tiananmen Square; a multitude of things that converged in just a brief time after she came to Congress.And the way she approached those things was pretty amazing.

And then you had in Congress the old bulls, the committee chairs.One of her first really courageous steps was voting for—not to censure or punish Austin Murphy from Pennsylvania.And the Pennsylvania delegation was solidly behind him.It was a voting conflict that somehow his vote was in question: Was he really there?Did someone else vote for him?Was he back in his district?And it was a small—she was a freshman—small number of people who voted not to punish Austin Murphy.

And of course, Mr. [John] Murtha was dean of that delegation and very powerful on appropriations, and he came up to her afterwards, and he said: "You know what?You have a lot of guts for a freshman member of Congress to take on a vote like that, a vote that you—where you voted your conscience, and you didn't vote with the majority just to be voting with the majority or not to have your head sticking above the hedge for the hedge clippers to come along."And so he lauded her on that, and they became fast friends.

So there you have one of the most esteemed—he had been very close to Tip O'Neill—and powerful members of Congress, who Nancy had gained attention and a positive reaction from someone like that.And that did take a lot of courage.

So she walked into that, but people started to see that she had substance, and it wasn't all appearance.But she'd stand up on the House floor, and I would be—she'd be speaking at the lectern, and I'd be in the audience there, and you could hear male members of Congress talking about her appearance.They weren't listening to what she was saying; it was all about appearance.

But bit by bit, step by step, Nancy was able to prove her place as a very, very strong member of Congress.And in 1989, with the Tiananmen Square, Nancy—those were all leadership qualities that Nancy was able to use as a platform in fighting for human rights in China.And she'd already been well versed in that, fighting dictators in Central America, and human rights was a passion of hers.

And so she was well acquainted with dangerous dictators.And I think that that prepared her for [President Donald] Trump as well.And the idea that she could be persuasive in a debate, count votes and really, really work so hard on an issue was really amazing to other members, that she was able to get a foothold that way.And on the AIDS crisis, her leadership on that.

And because it was a special election, all of the plum committee assignments had been taken.She walks in; what does she get?Government operations.But she got banking with international finance subcommittee.That allowed her to create the "Pelosi amendment," requiring the World Bank to take into consideration environmental concerns on their lending practices.So she didn't just sit back and think, gee, what do you do with international finance?She worked it.She worked it.And the Pelosi amendment is still very active and known.

And then her leadership on human rights in China, and then that morphed into fighting most-favored-nation status every year; that vote would come up in May.

And then on the local level, she worked to save the Presidio.Now, a lot of people think, oh, well, how important is that?Well, it is a national park.It may be in San Francisco, but it's a national park, and we couldn't get the legislation passed to preserve it in a Democratic Congress with our own secretary of interior.It took a Republican Congress.So, do you realize what's involved in that, in trying to get something done and work with a really contentious group of people?And to make that happen—in 1994 was the Gingrich revolution, and it was just an uphill battle.But Nancy did it. …

If in the beginning, at least, she's perceived as a "party girl." As you say, they're making fun of her on the floor, the men and everything.My first question, of course, is: It's clear that she reacts with skill and perseverance, it sounds like, but how did she feel personally?How was that for her, when she'd come back to the office and you'd sit around and just talk?Was it bothering her?

Well, she didn't know it.I mean, those conversations she wouldn't have heard.But, you know, she made a comment one time."Oh, did you feel excluded?Did you—?"And she said, "Well, I never got invited to a meeting," you know, and something about going into [Rep. Richard] Gephardt's [D-Mo.] office, but the only time she ever went in his office was—you know, that she really hadn't been invited to meetings and that it was a rare occasion that she would even be considered that way.

So I think she felt it.Did she moan and groan?Did she complain about it? No.That's not how she is. That's not who she is.She is very stoic. Things roll right off her back.She picks up and goes right on to the next battle.

There's these Tuesday night dinners.We’ve talked to [Sen.] Chuck Schumer [D-N.Y.].Despite the sexism, she keeps going to these damn things.And, you know, there's the great story about how none of them—they're—all the men are talking about having childbirth trials.

How difficult it was.

Tell me about that.Why was she—why did she go?And tell me that story, if you know it.

Well, I've only heard the story like you have, but they were buddies, and they could laugh at each other.They could be amused by each other, and they could poke fun.And believe me, Nancy Pelosi would have stood up and said: "Oh, yeah, you guys?You guys think you know about birthing babies?"And she and Barbara Boxer [D-Calif.] would be sitting there and said, "Now, let us tell you a few things."And—but I think it was done in a good-natured way.I don't think it was a way that, "Wow, you know, they're really—they're really out of it," or anything.

It was just the camaraderie they had in that group, and they understood each other.And they called each other out, too.But I think that—I love that story.

Molly Ball, in her biography of the speaker, talks about that, in order to be taken seriously, she had to master what Molly calls hard power: how to deliver the goods, how to deliver votes, how to raise money, the mechanics of politics.She probably learned it in Baltimore, from what I can tell.Was that how she got taken seriously?You've already given the list.Is that how she did it—hard power?

Well, I know she worked hard at being powerful, at gaining power.But when she had a national crisis like the AIDS epidemic, an international situation like Tiananmen Square, and then working nine years to preserve the Presidio and succeeding with that in a Republican Congress, and in 2001 was the highest-ranking Democrat to oppose the Iraq War, she does not have fear, and she follows her conscience.

And the elements of her leadership have to do with her persuasiveness, her commitment, and her ability to count votes and to appeal to people about a particular avenue that might concern them, or be appropriate for their district or something they've worked on.I mean, she can hone in like a laser with members, and figuring out what is meaningful for them, and how do you form this argument in a way that will bring it home to another member of Congress to be persuaded?

Pelosi’s Rise to Power

… Why does she run for whip?She's there about 15 years or so.And she, right? I guess, '03, yeah—15 years or so.And she runs for whip.Why whip, and why would she do it?Why would she step up?I've heard all kinds of explanations: that she didn't think the men were pulling it off.… What do you think?What did she say?

Well, she wouldn't come out and say these things, but what I saw in her was just pure competence, and up against a world where, you know, she felt like the caucus could do more.She felt like the caucus should be more involved; and that the talents covering the spectrum of the caucus should be more inclusive; and that leadership should be looking at individual members and showcasing their abilities, their backgrounds, where they came from, what they can bring to make a contribution to furtherance of good governance by Democrats in Congress.

So I think that, for her, it was like something she'd never say, but she must have felt that she had competence and that she could do a better job. …She has no fear, and she felt like she had an important contribution to make, and that it would be worthwhile to the furtherance of the issues she cared about in Congress and the issues she felt that Democrats should champion in Congress, what our party should be about.

And I think that she just felt like a woman in the House could do a better job.

That's the question for you, I think.Does it matter that Nancy Pelosi is a woman?Does it matter that she was a woman at that time?

Oh, I think so.I think there was a tremendous resentment, and even the attacks that came later from the far right, that, number one, she was a woman; number two, she was a smart woman; number three, she was a smart woman from San Francisco.And there's a lot of ire that gets stirred up about that particular combination, and she possessed that combination.But she used it.She put that—she weaponized it, in a way.I mean, she really, really put that together to use it for good forces.

How?

In championing the things that she believed in, whether it was nationally—I mean, you know, fighting the war, taking on China, and when Bush Jr. was in office, pushing back on Social Security.I mean, when you look at the things that she accomplished—and I think, what, she'd been with six or seven presidents during the—since '87, at the end of Reagan's term, starting there, and how she was able to push back and promote the things that she thought Democrats cared about that were instilled in our DNA as Democrats, to champion Social Security, to fight for [the Affordable Care Act].

And a friend of mine had dinner with [Secretary of Health and Human Services] Kathleen Sebelius at the time after ACA had passed, and this friend said, "Well, can you tell me how in the world we got the Affordable Care Act?"And she said, "I have two words for you: Nancy Pelosi."She said, "That's how it happened."She said there were people at high levels in the White House who wanted to do it incrementally, and Nancy said: "I didn't come here to do this in increments.I came here to get the best product that we can for this time, and we have our votes lined up, and I intend to try to do it."And she was the force behind that.

So that's how she used her power.

There's a story that when she finally is the whip and the first woman member of the Gang of Eight to go to the Oval Office, to be in the White House.And the story goes, and she's looking around and she realizes. … Talk a little bit about that.Did she ever talk to you about her feelings when she noticed, "Hey, I'm at the highest levels here, and no woman has ever been here before," and what she thought the impact of her being there might be for women?

Oh, I think so.And I think she really loved the idea that young women, girls and young women, would be inspired.And she's—one of her sayings is, "You can't be what you can't see."And she said: "I want girls and young women to see what women can do and what it's like to lead.And it's not easy, but this is what can happen, and this is what can be realized in your careers."

Yesterday, this little 5-year-old gave me this picture, and it's Nancy Pelosi in the Capitol.But she's put the blinds down on the window, because the sun was coming in.And this little office over here is [Rep.] Zoe Lofgren [D-Calif.]. She said, "That's Zoe's office."And here's the Statue of Freedom, up here.

And I think that's true.There was a—I worked with a fellow who was from the Netherlands, and his 8-year-old daughter was just enthralled by Nancy Pelosi.And I said, "Well, let me get—let me get the book <i>Know Your Power</i> and have Nancy sign it and send it to her."And he's—and they were living in Australia then.And he sent me a picture of her, and there she is, sitting in her chair, reading this book.She was just fascinated.

And these are just two examples of hundreds and thousands of young girls and young women who see what Nancy's done, who are inspired, motivated and realize that women do have a seat at the table. Women do have a place in governance and in leadership.

Personal Criticism of Pelosi

… The attacks on Nancy target her looks.They're very familiar to her, from the '80s and '90s.I can't imagine it doesn't get under her skin.The president of the United States is after you.But we've talked to so many people who say, no, she has a really thick skin.But you know her well enough to know, it must have been hard personally to get that kind of blowback.

Nancy Pelosi doesn't cry.Nancy Pelosi does not moan or groan or complain.She would come back in the office—maybe she had had this vote on MFN [Most Favored Nation] and lost.Come back to the office, just start writing thank-you letters to every single person who voted with her, with personalized edits, and on to the next project.This is true; she does not sit back and wallow for a minute.She doesn't—she barely breathes, because she's going on to the next project.

She would come in and maybe kick her shoes off, but it was, "OK, we've got work to do."And she—it would never be about her, how she felt.And maybe she would say something to her husband or her family, but from our perspective, as staff and in the office, Nancy—now, she might be angry at times about something that had misfired or hadn't gone in a predictable way, but she was never one to sit back and just say: "Well, what are we going to do now?How do we regroup?"No, she was already, by the time she'd walked back from the vote or whatever confrontation, to the office, she had already—was thinking about the next step and how you recover, how you promote the next step, how you move on.

That's why I say, she's a female phenom.That's just how she functions.And it is really phenomenal.And I think that she does not get the credit she deserves.She should be woman of the century, in my book, because of her sheer stamina.And she's the best strategic mind in Congress.

What would we have done without Nancy Pelosi in fighting Trump?From unfurling that silk banner in Tiananmen Square to squaring off with Trump, Nancy knew dictators when she saw them, and all of these things prepared her.And she has that, just, sheer strength.

Increased Division

Around the time of the midterms in 2006 and the success of the Democratic Party and her rise, and everything,Washington has become extremely divided.The Republicans were changing by nature.They weren't yet the Republicans of today, but they were on their way.… Did Washington feel like it was becoming more and more partisan during that time, and how did Nancy Pelosi react to it?

Well, you realize we had the Gingrich revolution in 1994, and the Tea Party came later.But she was prepared to strike out, to take a stand and to do what she deemed best for the party, in keeping with her conscience and the direction of the caucus. …And so that was the beginning.And the antics started.So the "Big Lie" started long before.And I think it was pretty obvious.I think it was pretty obvious to her, and she knew she had to fight.She knew what she was dealing with, with people who were unreasonable, who weren't going to listen to facts.

And so you go your own.You carve out your own way for the Democratic Party, and you have to try to be oblivious to this.I mean, when you have someone like Trump saying, "Grab 'em by the -----," and then you have [Rep.] Kevin McCarthy [D-Calif.] saying, "Oh, when I become speaker, it'll be all I can do to keep from hitting Nancy Pelosi over the head with the gavel," you know what?That is—that suggests violence against women, and if there isn't anything to spur you on by disgusting creatures like that. And someone who is the leader of the Republican Party in the House, who would stand up and say that because he thinks it's cute, and some of the guys in the caucus are going to—in his caucus are going to laugh about him hitting Nancy with the gavel: Think about that, that and what that says to the young people Nancy's trying to inspire.

And everybody says, "Oh, what, you know, he must have daughters; he must have—what do other young girls think about this?"But think also about what it tells young boys and men: That it's OK. It's OK to talk that way.

And so I think that she has a Teflon shield on, that these things bounce off of her.When you think about it, when you said the millions of dollars that were spent in negative ads, when you think about what has come at her, and the armor she has built up, and the toughness over the years to let those things bounce off, because she's moving on to the next thing, and she's going to try to do something positive.

I can't say it enough, how utterly strong she is and how she has the ability to move beyond and move to the next thing, because there always is a next thing.And in her job, she has to put socks on the octopus every day, no matter what the issue is.She has to be involved that way.

So I think it's just over time, you know, going back to her DNA, but over time the tough skin that develops, because you know that you can't believe them.You know you can't rely on them.You know they're going to make up stuff.You know that's it garbage in, garbage out.And you just become immune to that.You have to, to survive. …She's been brutally demonized, brutally.And I think that she has not gotten the credit she deserves, even from some of our own Democrats and the media, for the phenomenal job that she has done over the years and the strength that she's brought to our leadership.Most people would crumble.

But she's used to it, and she's fairly immune to it.But she made a comment, I think—

Sorry to interrupt you, but she's got grandkids, you know. I mean if—OK,let's say you've developed a tough hide, but what about your children and your grandchildren and family members?They see Grandma getting hammered.

Well, I think that toughens her up.I think that makes her even tougher.But I know it must be hard.It must be very, very difficult for a family to see someone they love and care about, and they know who's doing the best job in the world, to be minimized and ridiculed and treated in that way.

So here's the question: Why would she stay and keep going?She's been in the political wilderness by 2018, when they win again.… Give me insight into how you think she handled those years in the wilderness.What was Nancy Pelosi thinking and plotting and planning to do?

Well, one story comes to mind, about when I left in 2002, and she called me one day.I'd had breast cancer.I didn't think I was going to survive; it was a pretty bad situation.And Nancy had such compassion and humanity in helping me through a year of treatment and struggle, and I remember one day she called me after I'd left the office, and she said, "Well, how—what does it feel like?"And I said, "Well, I really do miss life inside the popcorn popper, but," I said, "it takes a lot to get used to."And she said, "You know, Judy, my biggest fear is that, if I ever left, that I would—I would just lie on the sofa, eat chocolate ice cream and watch <i>Jeopardy</i>."She said, "That's my biggest fear."

So there's only one speed.There's on, and there's off.There's nothing in between for Nancy Pelosi.So the switch is on, and she's high speed.And until that switch is turned off, I can't even imagine.And I can't imagine what "off" would look like.I also can't imagine her lying on the sofa, eating ice cream and watching TV.

As Trump gets in, all the things that she confronted back in '86-'87, maybe all of her life, are just compacted.It's like, here's the gender stuff with Trump.It must have resonated with her.She's seen guys like this before.

Oh, yeah.I mean, when you think of the entrenched paternalism and crude sexism that existed, and to some extent, large extent, still does—but that's what she came into, a totally paternalistic society and with a lot of crudeness.And she mastered that.[Former Rep.] Dave Obey [D-Okla.], chairman of Appropriations, there almost 50 years, and says, "She's the best speaker I've ever known."Chairman at the time of Ways and Means, and when Nancy was fighting human rights in China, he signed one of her bills that she'd introduced on MFN, and he said, "You've got a lot of balls."And then you had Murtha.So here, she'd won them over.She had them.

Pelosi in the Trump Era

In the period where she wears the red coat, first she lectures Trump and then wears that.She goes from being basically a poster child of ridicule to a kind of iconic status.How did she pull that off?

Because she has style.On top of the guts and everything else, she has style.And that's another thing that a lot of people resent about her, that she has a great style about her.She can be angry. I think her best press conferences are when she gets really angry on an issue, and she just rips into it.

And the other side of it is her humor.I think people don't realize how humorous she can be and what a great sense of humor she possesses.

And I think, you know, that red coat, that's just Nancy.The red coat and the sunglasses, that's her Audrey Hepburn side, you know?

Did she plan that coat, those glasses, or is this just pure luck?

I don't think she would have contrived it.I mean, I know she does pick colors of things she wants to wear on certain occasions, and maybe her jewelry is affected by an occasion.I don't know.But I don't know about the coat.But it was quite a flair and quite a statement.

And someone sent me—an artist had done a rendering of Nancy coming out of the White House with the coat and the glasses and everything, and so it just—and the T-shirts and everything that started to sell with the red coat, and people wanting to buy the red coat.

So it was—I don't know how rehearsed that might have been; I can't say.But it was really a statement.

So they win.The Democrats win, a surprising win, and lots of women come in.And Nancy Pelosi is about to try to do something nobody's really done.Most speakers go away after a loss.She has not only survived the wilderness, but she's back again.

Good for her.

But at least five white men, the moderates in the caucus—Seth Moulton [D-Mass.], Tim Ryan [D-Ohio], others—they don't want that to happen; they want to stop her.Describe how you think she probably reacted to the idea that, after this big victory, after lots of new women and progressives in the party, the men are after her. They're not even grateful. …

Exactly.They never stop.And she knows that the assault never stops.And what she also knew is that they couldn't count votes.They couldn't even count their own votes.So for her, that was just an exercise in what, you know, what did they accomplish, getting 43 votes or whatever.

So I think she has enough confidence and belief in herself.She knows where she stands with her caucus.She takes the pulse every day.She is—she is practiced at this.She knows how to count votes; she knows who stands where.

And I think she said recently with the infrastructure bill, in an interview, maybe it was a press conference, but she always has a handful of votes that are in her back pocket—or coat pocket, red-coat pocket.And those are people who have confided in her and said, "This is how I'm going to vote; you cannot tell anyone."

And Nancy can be trusted that way.She keeps those secrets silent and never reveals.But she always has that handful of votes that no one else knows about: not [Rep.] Jim Clyburn [D-S.C.], not [Rep.] Steny Hoyer [D-Md.] and not even her staff. Because when we were doing the leadership race for whip, we did that, the three years before I became ill, and she always had her own little list that no one saw.Maybe it was just mental. Maybe it wasn't a physical list.But no one saw that, and she committed to those members that their information was safe, and that she appreciated it. …

So I think that she probably dismissed that as just a frivolous thing.And some members may have come to her and said: "Well, you know, Tim Ryan said this; Seth Moulton said this.What do you think? What do you think?How do we deal with this?"And she would come up with a way to, if there was a hole, she'd figure out a way to plug it or a way to reassure someone.But I think the big takeaway from that was, they couldn't count votes.

Pelosi and the Squad

Let's talk about the Squad.… Here she is, and this young group of new women who have Instagram followings of 5 million.So it's hard power and Nancy's votes versus influence, which is the way she describes what AOC [Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez; D-N.Y.] has.Talk a little bit about the meaning of the battle to Nancy Pelosi, who herself was once the AOC of the crowd.I know that the analogy doesn't exactly hold, but was once a young, progressive newbie, and now she sees this new group of women who call themselves the Squad.Talk a little bit about the troubles between them.

Well, I wasn't there, and I can only speculate and draw from, you know, what I understand.But Nancy loves new talent and new energy, and every message she ever had in her first race for leadership was how to include members of the caucus and how to incorporate their ideas, their expertise, and to utilize them and showcase the talent that exists within the caucus.So that is all something positive for her.

And back to the lessons that Nancy used in her early years, it was, "Look, listen, learn before you decide to launch."And, you know, I think members come to Congress, and they think they can just turn things around the next day.And it does take time, and you have to prove yourself, and you have to get the confidence of the rest of your membership.And I think that's what Nancy worked at.It was to illustrate that she had something to offer the whole caucus.

And yes, she was against the war, and she was liberal in all of that sense, but I don't think that she would do anything but celebrate these women. …

I think all of these women have a lot of admiration for each other.I think, if you spoke with AOC about Nancy, yes, I think that there's a lot of mutual respect and deep caring and support, a real foundation of support among the women members.I think they will always disagree on certain issues, and that you can't—I mean, it's a big tent.We're the Democratic Party.This is what we do.It's called a democratic process.People say, "Oh, my gosh, 'infrastructure week' lasted two years."But this is what you do.It's a process, and Nancy uses that process and figures out the steps.

And I think that a lot of the women are very successful in proving themselves.And I think [Rep. Pramila] Jayapal [D-Wash.], you know, is a great leader for the progressives.And then you have members like [Rep.] Katie Porter [D-Calif.], who just sits there in those hearings and asks the best questions in the whole world.And I think it's a matter of finding something and proving yourself, rather than just spouting off to be spouting off.It had better have a solid foundation, and your belief system had better be grounded in something that's meaningful, that you can convey to a larger body and be convincing and persuasive.

So I don't think Nancy sees the Squad in any way as enemies but as part of the family, and part of the family you work with.Sometimes you agree; sometimes you don't.I think it's pretty basic.I don't think it is what it's always made out to be in the public view.I think that it's much more basic, and that if you talk to Nancy about it, yes, they get frustrated with each other, I'm sure, but in the end, you're still family, and you're still going to try to work things out.And you still ultimately have very similar goals.

Yes, but they are very different in terms of how they see power.

They want it now.They want it now.And sometimes it isn't that quick to come.

… The six of them voted no on the easy infrastructure bill.

Yeah, and I asked a friend on the Hill, I said, "Do you think that there were any three of them who may have given their word to Nancy, saying, 'Look, if you need us, we're there, but we know you're going to get some Republican votes, so let us take a walk'?"Those are the kinds of things that happen behind the scenes that we don't know.I mean, we look at it, and we say, wow, those six, and we got 13 Republicans.Wow, we couldn't have done this without the Republicans.We don't really know if that's true.Only Nancy and those members would know. …

And people will say, oh, you see a duck swimming on water; it looks so beautiful, so smooth.You don't want to see what's going on underneath the water.And we don't know. I mean, we see the surface, but we really don't know what Nancy is doing underneath the surface.

Let's put Trump to bed here, at least for purposes of this story.In his last State of the Union address, he comes in.… They're in full-blown warfare now.He gives Rush Limbaugh the Medal of Freedom.She's sitting behind.We're all watching closely what happens, and of course she tears his State of the Union speech in half.Talk about that moment and the Nancy Pelosi you know, sitting there simmering.

Well, I think that she must have felt—or would have felt totally disrespected, totally ignored in her position and disrespected in her House.And to have that in your face, and to listen to him, and see Rush Limbaugh lauded, I don't know how she sat there.I don't know how—I don't know how she did it.That was Nancy Pelosi angry: "But look, I'll show you."

Do you remember anything like that ever before?

Never.We've never had a Trump before.We've never had anyone like him.

It's interesting, because you used the word "anger" a few times.We've been thinking about ire, anger, what does she have, why would she be able to—how could she be able to hold on to it and not blow her stack a couple of times.And you could see the steam coming out of her ears now.

But she had a smile on her face; remember that.She had a happy look in that smile.Or the—the clapping at his last State of the Union.

Jan. 6 and the Aftermath

So I guess we're coming to the end.One other question about her is Jan. 6, her office, the office of the speaker of the House is defiled.Her staff is hiding under tables, terrified for their lives.We've all seen the video of people walking along saying, "Nancy! Nancy!"They're out to get her.God knows what would have happened if she had been there; who knows?Talk a little bit about, speaking of anger, and I guess speaking of other things, too, Nancy Pelosi, after it's all over, calls the vice president to say, "Let's get the 25th Amendment going." Calls [Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff] Gen. [Mark] Milley and basically takes him to task; makes sure nuclear warheads aren’t about to be ordered by the president of the United States, calls him crazy and everything else.Talk about that Nancy Pelosi right there.

I think that points back to what I was saying before, that she had to be shaken.That was probably the worst thing she had ever, ever experienced during her time in Congress and in leadership, to have a full-blown physical assault on the institution that you revere and respect, and the staff and the people who work there and the members, and to think that they were threatened, and their lives were in danger.Nancy would have been so moved by all of that, with, I'm sure, a spectrum of emotions, from anger to, you know, just—I can't even imagine.

But you see what she did.She moved beyond that, and she went to the next steps.She didn't sit there and say: "Oh, what are we going to do?I'm the speaker, and this has happened, and—." She wouldn't even take time to let herself feel that, because what she had to do was take the next step, because that's what leaders do.

And that's the kind of leader Nancy Pelosi is: that she would not sit there and be just—I mean, she might have been stunned for a few minutes, but believe me, she was thinking about what happens next, what happens next, and who do we need to notify.I mean, there was a total void of leadership in our country at that moment.Nancy Pelosi was the one leading the country in that moment.And that's what she did, and she knew she had to be that person in charge and make those essential calls that a president and a vice president couldn't even make. That she had to be the one dealing with this crisis.And that's what she did.

And I know that I can't even imagine what that must have felt like.

My last question: How had her life prepared her for that moment?

Well, it's who she is.I don't know how much preparedness you need, except that it's just so totally ingrained in her being and the person she is.But the idea that she had no fear, the idea that she has to wear this armor because of the attacks on her and the extremism that exists out there, that she knows that she has to step up, there's no choice.Did Trump step up? No.Did Pence? No.Was there anyone else who was going to take the reins and try to, you know, corral this horrible situation into something that we could try to make sense of going forward?But in that immediate moment, what's next?What could happen next?What could this man possibly be capable of as a next step?So Nancy was already thinking about the next steps and how and what you do as a leader, because we had no leadership in our country at that moment.

… Let's see what we missed.Mike Wiser, Jim, you’re right there. What did we miss?

[FRONTLINE's Jim Gilmore] The other thing I would ask is, Judy, have you ever seen her out of control?

Well, she's notorious for being tough on staff, and I have seen her use her anger, you know, in that setting.And I've seen her in small groups in her office with members, and just getting livid about something, and: "Why would we do that?Why would we go there?"And I have seen her, you know, with her anger in full steam.

[FRONTLINE's Michael Kirk] What causes it?What will light the fire?

If you do something wrong.If something isn't right.Whether you're a member of Congress, and it's like: "Don't you see?If we take this path, it's going to lead us to this spot and this spot and this spot, and then we're going to be vulnerable for this to happen, and something else to come in here.Don't you get it?Don't you understand?Why would you have such a short view of what we're trying to do long term?"

I can hear a conversation like that.And I can hear a conversation with staff.But in terms of staff, it always—you know, she's a mother of five, so keep that in mind.But it always harkens back to, when I was a child, and my mother would get angry about something, and guess what?Every time she got angry, she was right.She was right!And when I look back at Nancy, and anytime she blew up at staff or something, she was right.It was because there was a mistake.There was something that we'd missed or something that was wrong.And in the end, she was right.That's the only time I've ever, Jim, I've ever seen her, you know, just—it's usually about something that is wrong. It's a mistake, and it could have been avoided.

[FRONTLINE's Michael Kirk] Mike Wiser?

[FRONTLINE's Mike Wiser] I have two things.But first I wanted to follow up on that, because we don't see that side of Nancy Pelosi very much.She always has a strategy.She's always put together.She always knows what she's doing.I guess one of the questions is: Is any of that related to being a woman, coming up at the time when she did?Was there reason why you wouldn't show anger, why you wouldn't show emotion as much as other politicians might?Speaker [John] Boehner [R-Ohio] cried, famously, but Nancy Pelosi doesn't.

No.And I mean, when I told her I had breast cancer, she cried.The compassion and humility that came through in that moment of her sadness was incredible.And she turned to me, and she said: "Judy, we've run you into the ground.I don't care what it takes, you get well.You stay alive, and you take a year to be treated; have surgery; do whatever you need to do.And you do not worry about your salary."

And so—and I have seen Nancy get teary, you know, over maybe coming back into the office, and she's talked to someone, and she's gotten news that someone is sick or someone has died, and I've seen her get teary.And—but that's the kind of person she is. …

[FRONTLINE's Mike Wiser] My last question. During the Obama administration, she and [President Barack] Obama had a difference of opinion on strategy: how much time to spend with Republicans, trying to pass bills.Do you think that was a disagreement of strategy?Do you think that they were being dismissive of her understanding of the politics?Were they listening to her as much as they should have?

I don't think so.And I think they were dismissive, and I think he was naive.And I think she knew better than he did, at that point, how you could or could not trust.I mean, she had been so conditioned by that time about the attacks, the insults, the—that you couldn't trust them.They couldn't keep their word. And why are you going down this path, when we know that they cannot be trusted?

And so I think it showed naiveté on his part.

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