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Olivia Troye
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Olivia Troye
Former Adviser to Vice President Pence
Olivia Troye served as a homeland security and counterterrorism advisor to Vice President Mike Pence. She was also a member of the White House Coronavirus Task Force until she left her position in July 2020. Troye publicly criticized President Donald Trump and endorsed Joe Biden for president. She currently works at the nongovernmental National Insurance Crime Bureau as vice president of strategy, policy and plans.
The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE's Gabrielle Schonder on Jan. 15, 2021. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Trump and the Republican Establishment
I wonder if I could ask you really quickly how long you had worked with Vice President Pence, because I don't think I have a good timeline as to when you began working with him.
So I started working for him in May of 2018.So I worked for him for about a little over two years.
OK, all right, lovely.So I'm going to sort of take you through the chronology that we're doing that focuses on really kind of the involvement of the GOP during the Trump years.So in many ways, we've been reporting the story since, you know, 2015, 2016, and we're looking for folks like you who have been sort of firsthand witnesses to this history, to kind of help us understand the context of a particular moment.And so I'm hopeful that you can sort of help me go back in a time machine a little bit and make sense of a few historical moments, with kind of what we know now and of course your firsthand knowledge.
So let me start for a moment back in 2016.Candidate Trump beats a field of traditional Republican candidates, with plenty of chaos and controversy at the time.And the establishment decides to support him, even after all the things that they had witnessed in the primaries, the violence, the attacks on the establishment.I wonder if you could tell me what careful calculation you believe they were making.
Well, there's no doubt that President Trump was who he is today back in his campaign days, right?And he has not changed as a person.He is—one thing about Trump is, he is who he is, and he doesn't hide it.He is very honest about that.But I think in terms of the party, I think what they had to reconcile was the fact that he clearly had a movement behind him.He had a lot of support from his followers.And you were watching these rallies where he would go to these campaign stops, and they were all in.
And so I think at some point, when they get towards the primary, and they realize he is going to be the main candidate at that point, the party has a decision to make, right?Do they get behind him, since he is likely to carry the vote, which is their ultimate goal, right—is they want to win the White House.And so I think unfortunately, you see the party cave and say, well, he is our—he is our one shot against Hillary Clinton.We're going to back this guy, whether, you know, we're happy with his persona, the rhetoric and his behavior and the sort of values that he is representing, which are not traditional Republican values, I would say, by any stretch of the imagination.
Mike Pence as Vice President
Let me ask you about the choice of Mike Pence as vice president.Are you at the convention that year?
I am not.I had been serving as a career intel officer.I had been working in the national security field, so I was not participating.You know, I would try to take a step back from being directly involved in any political campaigning or anything like that, just because you kind of try to remain neutral and serve at the pleasure of whoever is in office, really.
Let me ask you a bit about the role you think that Mike Pence contributed in this campaign, you know, when he is named vice president.What signal did that send?
Well, it's my understanding from a lot of staff that it was a shock to the staff when they found out that Mike Pence had been chosen to be the vice presidential candidate.And I think—you know, I think they chose him because they knew that, given Trump's rhetoric and how extreme he was in a lot of the things that he was saying, Mike Pence, I would say, is more the traditional conservative, right, he does great with the evangelical voters.He is—he’s a man that is very devout to his faith, and I think that that is primarily why the Trump campaign decides that he is a good fit for a counterbalance, I would say, to what you're seeing in terms of President Trump.He would bring the more traditional conservatives along with him.I think that he would bring the Christian vote, right?I have a lot of relatives who are very Catholic, very Christian, very pro-life, and they love Mike Pence.They love the vice president.They still love him today, regardless of what has happened under this presidency.
You said it was a shock when the name was announced.A shock to which staff, and why?
I think to his immediate staff.I don't think that they expected him to be the one chosen as the running mate.So I think they were all kind of caught off guard when the name was announced.
I mean, it is an unlikely partnership.
It certainly is, you know.They are—they have two very different, I would say very polarizingly different styles.I think the vice president behaves in a very gentle manner.He is known for keeping his cards close to his chest.He is a true gentleman, I would say.He is known for being professional and a calm voice in the room.He is polite.I think for whatever, you know, people's opinion may be on his views or his political viewpoints, I think—and where he stands on a lot of social issues—I think the man that I saw when I was working for him and assigned to his office was someone who was respectful of those around him.And even if he may not have agreed with your viewpoints, he certainly was not going to treat you anywhere near like what you would get from the behavior of President Trump.
What I was going to ask: You've been in a room with both of them together.Help me sort of—give me a sense of what they're like behind closed doors with their staff.
Yeah, I'll say this about the president.He can be charming, if you can call him that.He jokes around. He jokes sometimes.He definitely is engaging with the people around him.I think Mike Pence is, you know, he listens.I would say he is the better listener out of the two.He takes in all viewpoints and then makes his decision.I would say it's less chaos when you're in the room with the vice president.He runs a more structured meeting.I think he is cognizant of people's time.
I think watching them both in the room, it was really just kind of watching Jekyll and Hyde, I would say.I don't know how—a better way to describe it, where you have a man who is sometimes very belligerent, and then you have a man who is never going to quite behave that way, because that's just not who he is.And I think it was, you know, it was telling at times.You could see at times almost the frustration and the struggle within Mike Pence in meetings, where he would just look away at times when the president would basically take us down a rabbit hole on whatever rant he was on, and we were actually supposed to be meeting about serious things.
For example, during the pandemic, we'd have a whole agenda set for the task force, and we had called people in on the weekend to sit in the room, and we're sitting there an hour in, and we're not talking about anything related to the agenda.
The president is going on a rant about whatever news network or whoever he saw or whatever made him mad.And at times I saw the vice president look down on the table and look away, fully knowing, I could tell—I mean, I could see the frustration in him, where he was trying to contain it and not show disrespect to the president, because it is the president; it is his boss.But you could see the level of frustration in him, where he knew that there were so many things that we needed to get through, and yet it was the Donald Trump Show. …
Completely frustrating for staffers as well, right, who—we had been up very late hours.We were up early that day.We have a task force that is exhausted from facing this pandemic for several weeks now, and knowing what was to come.And exhausting, and also somewhat just very frustrating to sit in a room and knowing that you have decisions that are life or death for Americans, but yet we're sitting there complaining about, you know, Tucker Carlson.
Early Chaos in the Trump Administration
Let me ask you a little bit about those early years of the administration.And I know you're not there for some of that, but, you know, in that first sort of year of chaos in this presidency, Republicans seem to view this president as a pen, in many ways, for legislation they either want or want to dismantle.And I'm curious to get your take on what they underestimated about the president and about his base.
I certainly think that at times, the president was easily manipulated by individuals who had his ear.I don't think that they would present him with all the facts at hand.I think at times it certainly felt like whoever had his ear last is what you would see him tweet about or what you would see him move out on, until other advisers or other voices of reason in the room would come in and give him the counterpoint to that, or why that was going to be a bad idea, or why they supported it.
You know, I lived the beginning of the administration from the perspective of being in the Department of Homeland Security.I was there from day one when—you know, I was there the day he launched the travel ban, as it's referred to, and it was complete chaos.We were completely blindsided, and we were caught off guard.And, you know, you saw it happen at the airports, where you have Customs and Border Protection and all of these entities trying to figure out what this executive order means, how do we implement it and what comes in the coming days, right?
And I think he caught the secretary at DHS off guard.I mean, you know, Secretary [John] Kelly, at the time, who was going to become his chief of staff, is completely blindsided by the decision.And I would say it was just, for the first year or so, it's just navigation by chaos.And it becomes clear who has his ear, though, right?It becomes clear that it's people like Stephen Miller; it's people at the Department of Justice who are in control here at the time.
How Republicans Worked with Trump
… Let me ask you about the efforts on health care.The president sort of believes that dismantling Obamacare will be a breeze and then, you know, very quickly realizes that in fact it's going to be a much more difficult thing to accomplish than he anticipated.He blames Mitch McConnell publicly after this, and they have sort of a public feud, mostly on Twitter, not that McConnell kind of weighs into it too publicly.You know, I'm curious if you can help me understand how McConnell and other folks on the Hill still figure out a path to working with Trump when he attacks them.What are they trying to sort of navigate between working with the president, this space, the establishment? …
I think when you're a Republican in leadership in Congress, and you have a president in the Oval Office that operates really by, I would say, I mean, he operates by navigation via Twitter at times, right?… Certainly there were many of us who woke up for the day in the morning and in the government and would be like, “What are we going to work on today?”And that would kind of guide my day, to be honest with you.I'd look, and be like, “OK, now I know what I'm going to be told or work on today, based on what he tweeted,” or, “That's where the focus will be for everyone that's rowing or trying to figure out how we navigate this.”
I think, for elected Republicans, I think the problem is that there are numerous policies where I think that they should have stood strong and pushed back on, or they should have known the detriment of these policies and these actions, right?Certainly the child-separation issues and what chaos there was on border towns and things like that.And, you know, with health care, I'm not surprised that the president just kind of turns on McConnell.
This is what he does. This is what the president does.This is how he operates.You do something.He does something very rash.He makes rash decisions, and he tells everyone and his supporters and his followers that he is going to do them.At times, when it doesn't work out, he needs a scapegoat, and so that scapegoat at that time for the health care policy was Mitch McConnell.
And Mitch McConnell is left thinking, OK, I can either go along with this effort or take a stand, but what does that mean for my political support?What does that mean for the supporters who are the base of the party?And I think that is the problem with the situation that the Republican Party is in right now with this president.He's hijacked the party.The base, I would say, of this voting bloc right now is Trumpism.And that, I think, is a calculus that these Republican leaders take into account with their actions on everything that they do, is what is the detriment if I take a stand against him?What does that mean for my own political future?
But, you know, at some point, when you look around and you see what is happening to our country and to America, and the ugliness that this president is leaving in his legacy for the Republican Party especially, right, I think you have to make a—you've got to make a decision for yourself on whether this is really what you stand for.
You sound like you're describing a bargain that many of them entered into with this insurgent candidate and then insurgent president.
I mean, they chose to back this candidate given the fact that they figured he would win.And I think, you know, when you choose to dance with the devil, sometimes you get really burned.
The Response to Charlottesville
Let me ask you about a tough moment, which is Charlottesville.I don't know if you remember how Mike Pence responded to this moment, but he sort of navigated the dilemma you just described, which is: How do I forge a path here of defending the president very cautiously and carefully without crossing him?Help me understand the role Mike Pence served for this administration, but really in that moment.
I think you saw the vice president do—walk the line like he had to repeatedly, right?He certainly was appalled at the events in Charlottesville.I know this because I was a Homeland Security person for several years, right, and I faced many instances and terrible tragic events in our country that definitely had the undercurrent of extremists, of far right, of white supremacy behind it.And I think in situations like this, I think there were many times where Mike Pence probably wanted to say something different.He condemns it, right?I know he personally does not stand for this.I have heard him say that behind closed doors.
The problem is, this is a White House where, if he said that, it would be in direct contradiction to sort of the side-stepping that the president was doing, right, and so—but by doing that, when you're Mike Pence, you're enabling it to happen again.
We're talking to Bob Corker next week, who's somebody who does criticize the president in this moment, and he's attacked.And I wonder what the warning was to Vice President Pence, to Mitch McConnell, of the danger of crossing the president.
Well, you certainly see it come to fruition.I was not surprised when, you know, on Jan. 6, when the vice president goes and carries out his duty to certify the election, fully knowing that he has no power to overturn it, and the president being unwilling to accept the fact that the vice president has no power to overturn it, and you see how quickly the president really started, I would say, to set the vice president up, right?He starts talking about him in rallies.He starts to blame it on him.He starts to set the scenario, which he has done previously, in other types of circumstances.He sets the scenario where he is telling everyone, “This is where your anger should be focused.It is Mike Pence.And if he doesn't come through for us, you know who to go after.”I mean, that's basically what he did.
And so he says this at the rallies.He says this in the build-up.He tweets about it.And then at his rally, right when the vice president is en route to the Capitol that day, right, he's talking about it at this rally with very inciteful language.And then, I can't tell you how angry and disgusted I was to see the president tweeting about Mike Pence while the vice president's life is in danger at that moment.And we have the president sitting there, inciting this and encouraging it and not doing anything to stop this, not even for the vice president or other congressional leaders.Our entire Congress was there, right?I mean, I just can't imagine a person who is sitting in the Oval Office, who is the president of the United States, and I just thought, you know, this is so egregious in how far we've fallen.
Contradicting the President
You said he had done it before, the president had, in other environments and scenarios.What are some of those?Can you list some of them?
Yeah, I think the issue is that when you don't go along with whatever narrative it is that the president wants you to go along with, he is going to do something to discredit you, undermine you and come after you, right?And you see this happen along the way, throughout the years.But, you know—and most recently, as a more recent example, you saw it happen during the pandemic.Every time someone would say something that he didn't agree with, the next thing you know, there would be some article, for example, on Dr. Fauci.He has attacked that man repeatedly.He has just tried to discredit him; they have put articles out on him; you know, Peter Navarro has written pieces and papers about how—the number of times that Dr. Fauci was wrong.Well, these are all Donald Trump's enablers. …
Let me ask you about a moment you may have been present for, which is the South Lawn ceremony where the tax bill is celebrated. …
This is the moment where Orrin Hatch says, “This could be the best presidency ever.”You know, we're only several months after Charlottesville, and I'm wondering if, you know, when you think about Vice President Pence or you think about some of these Republican leaders, do they appear to be suddenly too comfortable with this president?
So this is the constant, I think, dynamic with the Republican Party right now, right?You have a situation where they celebrate the wins.They celebrate the tax bill.They will take that and run with it and consider it, you know, a positive about what's happening or, for example, the trade deals, right, the China trade deal.That's an example of, you'll see Republicans point to what they would say are, you know, the president's successes, right?And you hear this narrative of how wonderful of a job the president is doing, and because of President Trump, we have these—this number of jobs.Because of President Trump, unemployment is the lowest it's been in the history of the United States, right?All of these statements they’re making.You hear the vice president say this repeatedly.
I can't tell you how annoying it was to hear Vice President Pence, at every single speech he made, say: “I bring greetings from President Trump.Because of President Trump, this.Because of President Trump, that.”I mean the first five minutes of every Mike Pence speech is this laudatory praise of this president.And I think it's unfortunate, because what you see is, you see the Republicans clamor around this president and focus on these big wins, as they would call it.But they're turning an [blind] eye to something that is completely dangerous and a growing movement of all of the negative things that the president has done, who have really taken hold of the base and the party. …
You know, it's great.You can sit there and pat yourself on the back about the economy and the jobs.But the divisiveness, the hate that has spread around our country, the racist rhetoric that's out there on what's happening, the fact that, you know, our own—we're seeing that this type of ideology, these conspiracies, all of these things have been enabled throughout Donald Trump's presidency.This didn't happen overnight, right?That rhetoric started in the campaign, when he was calling Mexicans thugs and criminals and rapists.That is not OK.
And so one great tax day of celebration does not right all of these wrongs that have happened, because these wrongs are the legacy of this, and they're not going away on Jan. 20 or 21 and moving forward.They're going to be there for the long run.
One thing I wanted to clean up, you said they're turning an eye towards these bad things.I think you meant a blind eye.
A blind eye, yeah.They're turning a blind eye towards these bad things.
The First Impeachment
… I wonder if I can ask you about the first impeachment really quickly and the way that the party rallies around him.What does it tell you about his grip, the president's grip over the party at that time, and what do you think some of those members were afraid of, if they spoke their mind about their reticence about the president's actions?
I remember sitting in my office in the White House and watching the impeachment trial and watching all the grandstanding that was happening by many of these Republicans.I, you know, am aware of what happened behind the scenes and, you know, the strong-arming of willingly allowing people to testify and the requirement of subpoenas.And even if you complied with a subpoena, I can tell you this: Internally, with colleagues, the behavior towards them just for doing their constitutional duty to the country was awful.And they were treated very poorly for complying and for doing what was right, you know, under their service and the oaths to their country. …
Watching what was going on with these Republicans, it was clear to me that rather than caring about what was actually going on here, in terms of our foreign policy, in terms of the type of foreign adversaries that were manipulating our president and the types of things that he was enabling, they were more concerned with their reelection prospects and their own quest for power, is what I would say, because they're there looking forward at what this means for the Trump base out there that's watching what they're doing.
And you see the entire, you know, development of the vote, and it's along party lines.Not one person stands up and says: “No, I don't agree with this.1I think that what he did was wrong.”
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We saw, of course, Lindsey Graham and other folks who vociferously defended the president, but you saw a whole other sort of world behind the scenes that sounds like, you know, involves staffers that were really getting bullied and pressured to obviously support this president at any cost.Is that right?
It was clear after the impeachment proceedings that the mood and the environment changed.It was—for many who had spent their entire careers working in national security, especially, and on the National Security Council, the deep state narrative, I would say, doubled during that time.And it was clear that you were sort of treated as, you know, a second-class citizen walking around, to be honest, like you were sort of the—you know, you were no longer a trusted entity because of what had happened.
And you see that with the fact that they start to reduce the number of NSC staffers.They start to reduce sort of the number of directorates at the National Security Council.All of this is directly related to what happened.It's a direct correlation to, you know, the testimonies of professionals, right, like Fiona [Hill] and—and Alex Vindman, who really just were telling the truth about what had happened, things that they had witnessed, and the danger of when you have a president that's doing these types of things in foreign policy, and he happens to be one of the most powerful people in the entire world.
Trump in Lafayette Square
… Let me ask you about Lafayette Square in that moment.You know, Mike Pence decides not to join him.Why do you think he does that?
I can't imagine that the vice president would have gone along with basically a spectacle and a circus of holding a Bible in front of a church, in a moment where the country is clearly hurting.There are a lot of people who are wanting their voices to be heard, protesting, and rightly so.And look, I walked around outside of Lafayette Square that day.I had been walking the grounds earlier with a very good friend of mine on the National Security Council.And those were peaceful protesters.I have the photos.I watched it with my own two eyes.And I went back in, and I could hear them.And I could hear them and their chants, and I saw the signs.
But I can't tell you what it was like to be cleared out of the White House and told I needed to leave immediately, and be very confused as a Homeland Security adviser, trying to figure out what threat stream I missed of a potential attack on the White House.I was so confused about what was happening.And I see a ton of Secret Service.I see law enforcement in riot gear.I see the National Guard convoys coming in.And I am just confused, because I saw people of all ages, I saw kids, I saw older white women on their knees, holding signs, taking a stand.And it was just appalling to me.
I was very confused until I got home, and I see the attorney general parading around like some sort of dictator, to be honest with you, with rows and rows of law enforcement.And I thought to myself—I just knew.My gut told me.I was like, something bad is about to happen.They’ve—they’ve planned something.Something is about to happen.And as I watched it unfold, I am disgusted at that sight, and just the hypocrisy of standing in front of a church, and not actually saying anything about the historic church that he's standing in front of and the fact that the church had been burned or anything like that.He doesn't pray.… He just uses—uses it as a moment to grandstand and push his false law-and-order narrative, because he didn't care about it, but he was trying to use that to create additional division against law enforcement. …
You're there.What's the warning that we and the party should have accepted that day at Lafayette Square that would have helped us understand what was to come?
Well, the fact that the president and his inner circle celebrated that moment I think says everything about the type of people that they truly are.You don't celebrate Americans being hurt.There were a lot of people hurt that day, physically hurt.And you put law enforcement also in harm's way, and you put them in an awful situation, right?You're pitting them against Americans.And that is a very dangerous dynamic to be perpetuating, in a situation where we're already in a very volatile, divisive time.And so I think that should have been a major warning to these Republican leaders, that, you know, there was no line he wouldn't cross.
Why did the staff, and why did he, view it as a win?
You know, I certainly sat in meetings where I—there were discussions about how they needed to show these protesters, they needed to show these mobs who's in charge, who's right.That was the language used.At times, you know, the “Mow them down.”He would yell at governors, and he would get on these calls that were actually supposed to be COVID calls to talk about the pandemic, but instead he would berate the governors on their weakness in standing up to them, and talk about mayors and put the blame on them.And then he would, you know, push the antifa narrative, in a very one-sided way, right?
And so I think when you can spend 45 minutes on a governor's call, berating these governors and telling them how weak they are, and they need to be showing strength, and they need to be out there, and they need to be out there patrolling, and putting the police out there, these are all things that are coming out of this president's mouth directly.
Trump Pushes a Narrative of Election Fraud
Let me ask you about similar rhetoric that's part of the lead-up to the election, which is what he says on the campaign trail about liberating states and that movement.He's also ramping up talk of fraud ahead of the election.You know, if I lose, it will be because of this.Do you think party leaders were paying enough attention to this rhetoric?
Anybody who has worked around this president knows that he leaves the kernels there, right?It's like bread crumbs.He drops little bread crumbs along the way.And he's actually being very honest and forthcoming about his plans. ...That is what is frightening about this entire situation, is the enabling that happens around him.
When he lays out his plans along the way, right, he lays—he pushes these narratives, and he knows exactly what he's doing.So he starts to push this narrative of fraud, of, you know, what could come down the road with the election, on how making sure that, you know, it's not going to be a stolen election.And he starts this narrative early on.You start to see the tweets develop in the summer.
And then I—you know, I remember a moment in, I think it was late summer; I had already left the White House.And I remember in September, I think, where he tweets something or says something that sounds very dictator-like, right?And it's sort of like he's announcing his transition of: “I don't plan to leave, right.Regardless of what happens in this election, I don't plan to leave the Oval Office.I am going to remain your president.”And you start to see that narrative kind of shift in that direction.But he had been laying that narrative down for months.And the problem is that there was certainly that circle around him who enabled him to continue it.
Well, and folks out there who believed it.
Right.And they encourage his supporters.I mean, you have a whole voting population out there who still today believes that this election was stolen and that Donald Trump should be president, and they think that, you know, some fraud happened.And that's how you end up in situations where they're threatening election officials, right?They're threatening the election officials in Georgia.And you have people who are angry.You have people—there's attacks happening on governors, right?I mean, there's attacks happening to the governor of Michigan, where they actually tried to move forward with the plot.
Olivia, why are they so angry?
The supporters?
Well, when you have a president that's been telling them for four years that, you know, America, they need to win it back, that America is sliding away from them, that he's encouraging this type of divisiveness and where he's continuously basically running his presidency as grandstanding for a population out there where he is actually, I would say in many ways contributing to their disenfranchisement, right, where he is feeding these narratives and conspiracies, and he does this via news networks, right, and he has all these extremist people who are out there on social media, who are lying about all these different things.
But what they don't realize is that they're basically radicalizing this entire population, and it's coming directly from the president of the United States.
Enabling Trump and the Election Fraud Claims
Let me ask you about election night.The fraud talk—and I should say election week.The fraud talk only continues.And members on the Hill start repeating it as well.Others are totally silent.And I'm curious what you think about the silence.I mean, there is, like, a refusal to say, “President-elect Biden.”But the damage that that silence does, you think?
I think when it comes to our democracy and the elections, you can't—this isn't a moment where you can walk the line and try to figure out how you're going to navigate and play both sides of it for yourself, right?You either take a stand and you tell people the truth, that this election was secure and it was won fair and square and it's time to move forward—maybe you focus on the next time around, right?Maybe spend your energy there, on what you want to do in 2024, and do it in an honest manner.
But the—I think when you're silent, I consider that complicitness, because you're not actually countering the vocal supporters out there, the vocal officials who are enabling this narrative to gain traction.There's no one pushing back, right?So you've got the people who are pushing the false narrative about how this election was fraudulent and how the election results aren't real, and they want to continue to contest it in courts and file all these frivolous lawsuits, and then you have the people who stay silent and say nothing.
But I think when you're staying silent, and especially in this moment, I think the silence is what has led us to where we are today.Your silence has led to the past four years under this president and all of these dangerous things that have happened.And now is a moment, with our Constitution and our democracy there waiting to be defended, and yet again, the silence continues.And I just don't know—like, what is it going to take?
Pence’s Breach with Trump
… So we talked about the difficult position that Pence is in that morning of the 6th, but we didn't really talk about sort of the four years that had come before that day, you know, and the incredible loyalty he had shown to this president and what he did for this ticket back in 2016.You know, over a matter of hours, that seemed to all sort of not matter. …
I think so.I think, you know, this is a man who has been so loyal for so long, to his detriment, I would say.But I think, at the end of the day, Mike Pence knew that he was going to uphold the Constitution, and he knew that—one, he knew that he had no power to overturn and do the things that the president was saying, right?That's just factually—those are the facts.And so he did his job that day.
And he could have chosen to do some sort of grandstanding or spectacle and gone along, so I'm glad that he didn't.I'm glad that he actually did the right thing for our country and stood strong, knowing fully what was going to happen, right, because you see how the president behaves.He knew what cost this would come at, and he did his job.And he showed courage.And he took a stand, finally, something I wish he would have done repeatedly in the past four years of this administration.
What do you think changed for him?
What was that? I'm sorry.
What do you think had changed for Mike Pence?
Well, like, the show's over for Donald Trump, right?He's no longer—he's not going to be president.He's going away.He's shown the entire world what he is as president.And even though he has this voting bloc behind him, I think, at this point, it's really a big moment to decide.You know, are you voting for America, or are you going to continue to support this evil person who has done all these things?
And like I've said, one right doesn't fix all the wrongs, but I'm glad that he took a stand in that moment, and I think that's something that he's going to have to wrestle with going forward, because this administration is his legacy as much as it is Donald Trump's.
McConnell’s Breach with Trump
You know, Mitch McConnell gives a speech right before the mob overruns the Capitol in which he breaks with the president as well.What did you think of the timing of that?What did you think of the message of that?
Well, at that moment, I think it was important to take a stand against the president, right, because it was very dangerous.It was a very dangerous moment for our country.And to allow this to continue on is leading to a frightening situation, where you are encouraging these types of beliefs in the average American.And when I say average American, I mean, these are your neighbors, right?These are friends.You're seeing them repeat some of these lies and narratives.They are believing these conspiracy theories.
And so I think that at that point, he needed to take a stand.But, you know, he's already lost the Senate.He's losing control of the entire party.But he's been losing control of the party for the past four years and prior to that, right?So I guess, you know, it's now—it's better late than never.But there is going to be a lot of soul-searching and a lot of real introspection that needs to happen for the Republican Party going forward, because right now, this is the Republican Party of Trump.
The Mob at the Capitol
Let me ask you about the president's speech the morning of the 6th.We talked earlier about activating the base on the campaign trail.Is that what he was doing in that moment?
Yeah, it's what he does, right?He incites this sort of rhetoric.It's inciteful. He incites anger.He gets these people fired up.He encourages it.He chooses words like “mob” and “storm” and “fight for it” and “take it.”What do you think is going to happen when you have the president of the United States, when words matter, telling people, basically, to use force directly?And he's done this before.He's done this at his rallies, right, where he says: “You've got to fight for it.You've got to take it back.Use your might,” you know.And then he uses language like with the governor of Michigan: “Lock her up,” things like that.
When you’re president, words matter.
And you have a whole group of supporters out there who thinks that's their call to action, and they go and act on it, because they're defending Donald Trump.They're standing with their president.They're so proud to do that, right?You have people at the Capitol events that they don't think they did anything wrong.That is, bottom line, a major problem right now in our country, the fact that they are being called patriots by the president's daughter, still; where he's still telling these people, “We love you,” after everything that has been enabled and has happened.
And so I think, you know, this started in his language and the things that he says, and it continues onward.He’s not—he doesn't put a stop to it.The events are happening.He doesn't come forward and say stop.It takes him hours to finally release or make a statement after, from what I understand, was the imploring of aides around him, telling him that he has to do something because the violence is out of control, right?And the National Guard is nowhere in sight.It takes the vice president taking a stand and trying to figure out how to mitigate the situation.
You have a Republican governor getting calls for help, and calling himself, calling for help.I can't believe that, you know, here we are.This is a man who—these are his own Republican people in that building, and he doesn't care.And quite frankly, I think watching what happened, he was proud of that.He was proud that these people were fighting for him, that they were fighting for what he viewed was the fact that he deserved to remain president, and this stolen election—his words—and those are his soldiers, right?I think that's how he views it.
And when those soldiers are calling for the vice president, you know, chanting his name as they're running towards the Capitol, what did that moment signify for Mike Pence, do you think, and his party?
You know, I can't imagine what it must be like to have stood by someone unwaveringly and been in this environment for four years, fully knowing how dangerous this man can be, because we've seen this repeatedly, and it leads to his own life being put directly in danger by this individual, right?You have the president basically setting up the vice president of our country in a situation where he puts his life in danger.And I have no doubt that the threat level on the vice president will remain high, because these people are not going to forget.
… Could you believe what you were watching when you saw the images of the mob coming to the Capitol?
It was upsetting and horrifying, but I had been concerned for weeks prior to the day that this would happen.And I was not shocked when I started to see it come to fruition, because I knew that this would be the culmination of all of those rallies and all of that narrative.And I knew that the president would encourage it and welcome it.And so it wasn't—you know, when you have threat streams like that and you're watching the chat channels, I can tell you, I feared for my family.I was certainly prepared, and I was concerned about what that would mean for my safety and the safety of my family.
So I was shocked watching the lack of force protection around the Capitol that day and watching how easily it was for them to overtake the Capitol.I felt horrible for the law enforcement there.I thought they needed backup.Something just wasn't right about how that situation played out that day.And that was a horrible national security failure.And I think, you know, I think there will be investigations.And we'll certainly—we’re learning a lot more today.But it wasn't a surprise to me to watch that happen.It was awful, and it was tragic, but this is what happens when you have someone in office like Donald Trump.
There were warnings over the years.
Yeah, you’re right.I mean, this isn't the first incident we've had.We've had, you know, we've had Charlottesville.We've had an uptick in hateful signs across the country.We've had swastikas painted on synagogues.We've had shootings at synagogues.We've had mass shootings in my hometown of El Paso that were directly related to far right and extremism and white supremacy and hate.In many of these circumstances, these people mention the president and these documents.
I mean, we had that guy driving around in a van with all his MAGA gear, sending out packages to Democratic leaders.If that wasn't one of the first major warning signs, I don't know what was, that you have these individuals who are obviously sick, but those are the type of people that are listening and that are going to move forward with some of these plots.And so when you have—when you call them to action, and you invite them to come to Washington, D.C., and you invite them to join you at the Capitol, and you give a speech, and you say you're walking down to the Capitol, and you're going to walk with them, you're their leader, right?You are now the figurehead for these types of groups.
… Do you think Mike Pence understands his role in some of this?
I don't see how you can go home at night and watch everything that's happened throughout the day, and watch this president's behavior, and not understand the situation that you are involved in, right?And I don't see how you can—I mean, I don't—I think he stayed and found himself in a very toxic environment.But at the end of the day, I think, you know, he wanted to be vice president.This was the opportunity to serve as vice president.So I can see how one would say: “OK, this is my calling.It's a call to serve, and I want to be the vice president,” and he's thinking about his future political ambitions and hoping that that may enable him to be in the Oval Office someday, right?So I can see that.
But I don't know how you can go home at the end of the day with some of the more egregious things that have happened and be OK with it.You know, you're complicit, and you've enabled it, just like so many.I did see the vice president push back at times, and I was grateful at times that his voice was in the room, because he was a calming voice.But there were certainly decisions made.There were certainly moments where he wasn't even invited or included to be in the room.And there was always a dynamic there where Trump was going to do what Trump was going to do, and it didn't matter.
Democracy Is Fragile
… Do you believe the fragility of our institutions have been tested in the last week?
Absolutely.I think, you know, democracy is fragile.You have to care for it; you have to stand up for it.And I think in the four years that this president has been in office, he has done grave danger to our government institutions, in terms of how he has discredited the national security community.He has gone out of his way to undermine the intelligence community repeatedly, especially when they did their analysis and reporting on things that he felt were to his detriment.He never wanted to hear the truth.He went out of his way to discredit those who would testify with the truth, and he would fire them. …
It's not just the national security community.The damage he has done to the public health community is significant, right?We have people who do not trust the CDC.We have people who don't trust the FDA now.So it's one government institution after another where he does this, where he, you know, discredits these people.The whole, you know, deep state narrative, the whole wanting—the “Drain the Swamp” narrative that everyone in government is terrible, and that's why—and that's what he ran on, right?He ran on that sort of narrative, where he was not the typical Washington establishment, where he was going to come in and change—change the status quo.
But, you know, the government and the status quo exist for a reason, because it's guardrails.It's also, you know, they're also there to support.These are people who know what they're doing.These are practitioners.These are professionals who have spent their entire careers dedicated.
Biden Inherits a Divided Nation
What's the challenge that lies ahead for President Biden, the country that he inherits?
Well, I think Donald Trump was going to try to burn everything down on his way out, and he certainly has.And he's been successful in that.So you have an incoming president who not only has to deal with a raging pandemic and crisis domestically that is going to continue to hurt families and the economy.I mean, it all goes hand in hand.You have a nation that's incredibly divided.You have a dynamic where there's going to be a whole group out there of people who do not accept the fact that he was elected and that he is their president.
And I think that that is going to be a very challenging time.But I think that—I think President-elect Biden has so far done an amazing job of what he communicates and the way he communicates to the country.And I think that his—you know, he is level-headed.He is doing his best to speak to everyone and say that he will be a president for everyone, and he is doing his best to unify the country.
And I think he will stay the course.And I had, you know, faith that he would be the type of person that we need after everything that's happened in the past four years.Do I think it's going to be hard?Yes, absolutely.But, you know, I really actually think that it's—it's on the Republicans to help him succeed, right, because they have made this very hard.They have enabled it.They have allowed this moment—most of them have enabled it and allowed this moment to happen.
And so I think that they need to come together and support him and try to figure out how we move forward together as a country.You know, I see calls for unity, and I see all of this happening with the impeachment right now.You can't have unity if you don't have accountability.So you need to hold yourselves accountable for what's happened here, and you need to figure out a way forward, and you need to be willing to work and do the work in a manner that it's productive.
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