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Paula White
Trump Spiritual Adviser
Pastor Paula White is a Christian televangelist. She served as an adviser to Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign, and later as a special adviser to the Faith and Opportunity Initiative in the Trump administration. White delivered the invocation at Donald Trump’s inauguration.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on March 25, 2024, prior to Joe Biden’s withdrawal from the presidential race. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Meeting Donald Trump
Let me start at the beginning and ask you, when did you first come across Donald Trump?
I first met Mr. Trump over 20 years ago, almost probably 23, 24 years ago.My office said, “Mr. Trump is on the line,” and I was like, “Sure, sure.”They said, “Well, no, Paula, Mr. Trump is on the line.”And of course, everybody—or I think a lot of people had heard of Donald Trump at the time.So I get on the line, and he begins to say to me, “I’ve been watching you,” and he starts to repeat to me, almost verbatim, three of my sermons on the value of vision.I mean, he knew part one, part two, part three.
And I was pretty intrigued there, because we had a large congregation.I thought, man, he listens better than most of my congregation.And he said, “You've got the ‘it’ factor.”And I said, “Oh, sir, we call that the anointing.”And that was our hello.
And so that conversation proceeded.It was quite lengthy.He began to talk about his upbringing and Norman Vincent Peale and how profoundly impacted he was by his ministry and sermons, and about his personal life, and asked if I was ever in New York.
New York has always been a kind of big city for Paula White Ministries, and I've done Bible studies and had a church up there at one time.So at the time, I was doing a Bible study for the Yankees.I said, “I'm up there.”He goes, “Well, we'd love to get together with you next time you're up.”So we did. And a relationship began to develop, and here we are today.
Who is Paula White?
I want to ask you about the meeting, and I want to ask you about what he said about Norman Vincent Peale.But first, who were you at the time?Who was it who Donald Trump reached out to? I guess he’d seen you on television.
Yeah. That's really fascinating, especially as I hear it, and what happened, you know, how I put the pieces together, because I had kind of assumed maybe he was in New York watching me on television.
So I didn't grow up in church at all.Had a really radical encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ when I was 18 years old, and I prayed a prayer and said, “God, can I spend the rest of my life helping people?”I have quite a testimony myself of just coming from a lot of brokenness and things that God's word really healed me and my encounter with Jesus Christ.And so I became passionate and knew that I wanted to spend a life in ministry, helping others, doing, being a voice for the voiceless and an advocate for those that I knew needed the Gospel.
So I spent my life doing that.I started out up in the Washington, D.C., area.Then we moved to Tampa.And kind of the background of me, which will lead to all this and how this kind of collision or destiny or how God brought us together happened and occurred, overcame quite a bit—quite a lot in my life.And I think that's always been maybe impressive to Mr. Trump.And because he knew my story—my father had committed suicide; I was sexually and physically abused.I came from a pretty well-to-do family.My mother was very educated, two master’s [degrees] and had a career, etc.
But there was a lot of dysfunction and a lot of brokenness.So this encounter that I personally had, this spiritual awakening, radically transformed my life.And when I prayed that prayer, I went on a mission just to help people.So we moved to Tampa, went to Tampa, started a church.And it started because they gassed a man with gasoline because of the color of his skin in an area that was an inner city of Tampa.And I really felt led by God to go in and begin to just minister.
Now here we are living in Dolphin Point Apartments and struggling myself, and barely have anything—quite a story from my own struggles.And I start going to these bakeries, Entenmann Bakeries and getting things and taking them to people and start preaching the Gospel.And before I know it, people started calling me Pastor.And we started a church, a storefront church, with five people, and it grew, ultimately, into the second largest church in the nation.1
1
Tampa Bay Times: Without Walls' Randy White talks of moving forward
So when Mr. Trump had reached out, Paula White Ministries had started in the '90s.I had gone into a media ministry.So I kind of started being known as this evangelist and this pastor and this wild girl that went into crazy places and brought a lot of healing and restoration.I did that through the word of God and just my passion to see people healed and hurting lives restored.So I was in Hawaii doing a training for the inner city, and I felt like the Lord—when I say spoke to me, not in an audible voice, but whispered in my—and it gives you that impression—and that I was to go on television.I knew nothing about TV, absolutely nothing.
So I go back, and there's a man, Jim Kirby, that's writing a book for us about Without Walls, and I said, “Jim, I really feel led to go on television.What do I need?”And he said, “Well, you need to get a media agent or something. I don't know.”I said, “Oh, OK.” And he said, “Here. Call this person.” So I did.And pretty much, Christian television had blackballed me at the time.I was not the narrative.You know, I didn't fit the mold, which I believe was the mold for God, and God was doing a new thing, as he always is.
So the short of that long story is, I call up, and they said, “Look, we have one opening on BET, Black Entertainment Television, 7:00 a.m. Tuesday mornings.”And I think it was $23,000.It was Tuesday mornings, 7:30.I had an entirety of about $10,000 to my name, so I sign a contract that obligates me for about a million dollars, go on BET, and <i>Ebony Magazine</i> writes, “You know things have changed when the most popular preacher on BET is a white woman.”And God was really using me for racial reconciliation and bringing the Gospel to hurting people, and really transformative.There's a lot of books out there, some accurate, some not so accurate there, about that formation and how that happened.
So I started buying up airtime.Now remember, Christian television was not really my necessary fit, meaning that it wasn't until I became what they would consider successful and popular and highest ratings and the ministry was exploding, that I was really embraced by that religious sector.So I was buying up all kinds of cable and secular TV.
So I assumed that Mr. Trump had seen me on Fox on Sunday mornings, because I had airtime on Fox, etc.I was just buying everything I could.But when I found out that wasn't where he—it wouldn't be until years later that I'd find out he wasn't actually watching it in New York.It wasn't Fox.He was at Mar-a-Lago, and he was watching the station that was an offshoot—I forget the local numbers—in West Palm that was CTN.It was a Florida—it has about 18 different stations.It was a very low-powered station, and he would watch it all the time, and he would watch Christian programming.So that's where he saw me.
And the irony about that is maybe a year or two years earlier, my executive director had come to me with this contract, and that contract was for a few hundred dollars.It was this very low-powered station.I think it cost a couple hundred dollars.And he said, “Paula, do you want to go in this area?”And I said, “Danny,” I said, “we're saturating the market there. We really don't need it.”
And he starts to walk out the door, and as he walks out the door, I felt the Holy Spirit just said, “Sign that contract.”So I did.And that's where Mr. Trump would be watching Paula Today.So it's pretty God-orchestrated from my opinion, from start to finish.
So that's how he met me, or he had been watching me, so for quite a bit.And when I say he could repeat the sermons almost verbatim, it wasn't just like, “Oh, here's ‘Value of Vision.’”I mean, he knew the points to the sermon; he understood it.And it wasn't just like have a vision; it was how really, true vision comes from your spirit and from that you have to—you know, without a vision, my people perish.
And so I was really dealing with, how do you see God's perspective in your life?And it's getting the picture that God has for you.And so it was quite interesting to me.And that's the initiation.And do you want to pick up—oh, go ahead.
Getting to Know Donald Trump
Tell me about the first time when you meet him, when you go up, I gather it’s at Trump Tower.Tell me about that meeting, about what you said to him and what he said.
Well, he still welcomed me in, and showed me around everywhere in Trump Tower.And I met [executive assistant to Trump and senior vice president of Trump Organization] Rhona [Graff] and [bodyguard] Keith [Schiller] and the staff and just everyone.The kids were around, and he graciously introduced me to everyone.And I just loved—first off, I noticed the setup, where his office was, the proximity of everyone, how interactive he was, how his door was always open.And so I stayed in there for quite a bit.And people would come in and out.
And here, at the first meeting, he was just very—I'm virtually a stranger, right?And he's so open.It wasn't just like this formal meeting.I just sat there and watched people coming in and out, watching his conversations with them—the kindness, the generosity, the wisdom.So that was all very—you know, I'm taking it all in.It was a normal day for him, the phone ringing, him having a conversation.It wasn't like he said, “Excuse me. Get out of the office.”So he was very inclusive, very—I mean, just open-door policy there.
That was the first thing that I really noticed.And then he wanted to—he and his staff, Keith and a few others, we went to Jean-Georges.This is kind of a funny story.He wanted to take us to lunch there.So I had never been to Jean-Georges.Of course, I would have said “Jean-Georges,” as you know, I'm a Mississippi girl.What did I know?And I wasn't dressed appropriately.I had on jeans and a blazer, I think.But he never said anything like that.He never was like, “Oh.”Just completely kind, a gentleman.
And so we went.There was about two or three of us that went there and had lunch together.And I'm looking at the menu.Of course, it's like a nine-course thing, and he said—they asked what I'd like to eat first.I had no idea how to interpret that menu, so when you don't know what to do, follow the one who does.
So of course he ordered.He, I think, was impressed that I wasn't getting drinks or anything.He looked at me like—because we knew nothing about each other.All I'd known is Donald Trump the builder and the developer, etc.And we just started talking about life, about ministry, about our backgrounds, about God, about redemption, about just life.And so it was very, very poignant, very—it felt like just minutes went by, and it was quite a long time.And we all went back to the office, and it was one of those relationships that you felt like, I've known this person a long time.It was easy.
And I did say to him—this was, from my perspective, that I kind of had internally said, I felt like the Lord had said to me—and when I say “said,” I don't mean in an audible voice, but impressed me—“Show him who I am.”And so I articulated that to him in my own way.And I feel like that was—I felt that was my—when I say “assignment,” not like I had this thunderous-thing assignment.I believe everything in my life has purpose and intention from God.So I thought I was to pray for him, pray for his family.I thought I was to share God with him, live out my beliefs, which that was all just normal, that God here was making connection.Little did I ever know that this would lead to the White House and to 20-what-3, 24 years later.
When you walked in, you said, “I don't want your money or your fame.”
What I said was, I literally said to him, I said—because I felt like I was to show him who God was.And I said I said it in my own way.I said, “Sir, I don't want money from you.”I said, “I have enough money on my own.”That was funny, because he was a billionaire, and I'm, you know—but all things are relative.I just felt like, I don't know.I felt like something had come over me, and I had this boldness.I said, “I don't want your fame. I have enough of my own.”That was silly, you know.But I felt—I said, “I want your soul.”
And now, knowing him, I feel like that boldness was just Trump-esque enough that it was received.And … what I meant by that is, I just want a pure relationship to show you who God is.
Was he a religious person at that point, when you met him?
I knew nothing about was he a religious person or anything, so I'm meeting him cold.I'm meeting him not knowing.You know, obviously you aren't Googling everything like you are today.At least I wasn't.So I knew absolutely nothing about his background.But I found out very quickly, from conversation number one, that absolutely he was a religious person.And when you say religious, I'm going to say a person of faith; that this is not a person that just was formed by faith, which was absolutely one of the, what I would say, dominant formations in his lifetime, as a young boy.I would say that his parents, military school—there are things that absolutely formed who he is—
And Sunday school every single week, going to church with his family every single week, had a huge impact on him.Dr. Norman Vincent Peale, huge impact.And he watched Christian television.He didn't just watch it.One of the things that he talks about regularly is how his father took him to the [evangelist] Billy Graham crusade, and that really touched him and moved him.He loved Dr. Billy Graham.
But he knew all the preachers.I mean, when we talked the first time, he was telling me about—we were talking about Jimmy Swaggart.And of course I thought, oh, here we go.You're going to hear the normal story that—because I don't know who I'm talking with.I would say the secular world is going to form this opinion.
But he had a very different opinion.It was interesting.He loved his preaching, loved the fire, loved the power.Dr. Billy Graham, loved his preaching.And when I say loved his preaching, he could articulate very specific sermons.So he's watched Christian television for a long time.
It's interesting, because people have noted he's not known as a regular churchgoer; he's known as a television watcher.But you thought—was he in a way going to church during those years, or was it through television?
Well, so a few things.Number one, he went, as a child, he went to church regularly.Of course he went to Dr. Norman Vincent Peale's regularly when he was—he recalls often the day he retired as being one of the hardest days for him.He just said it was a sad day; that he could listen to him for hours, because he had a way of taking of the Gospel with what we would consider parables or modern-day storytelling and be able to relate it.And he said, “I could just sit there forever.”
And I think it's really interesting, because I've seen a few news stories, and people focus on other aspects that, to me, it's just not ever been brought up.What impacted him was the power of God.What impacted him was the word of God.What impacted him was prayer.He went regularly, and then there was a point in his adult life that he stopped going to church.I think that was one of the reasons that he called me.I think he was looking for that spiritual connection and that pastoral connection that as he got more successful, a lot of things changed in his life.
And I'm sure one of those, unfortunately, all people are to be equal or be treated a certain way.I could tell you some really sad stories almost, when he was president and prior, to how churches should always open their doors to all people but they didn't, necessarily, to him.And that's—that's very disheartening. That's hard.So I'm sure, as he became more successful or more in the limelight, that also comes with a lot of demands.
And he has a very particular style of worship that he loves and likes.He’s a very traditional person.He loves his roots.
You said there were some things about Norman Vincent Peale that other people have focused on, that wasn’t what you were hearing.Are you talking about <i>The Power of Positive Thinking</i>?Because that's what a lot of Norman Vincent Peale is identified with.
Yeah.
Did Donald Trump talk to you about that aspect of Peale?
… OK, that's a profound part of Dr. Norman Vincent Peale that he's known for, but it's also part of a shallow part.Everyone tries to make it that is the only thing.And Dr. Norman Vincent Peale came out of the Reformed theology.If you really listen to his sermons and understand where he's coming from and how God used him after the Depression, where this nation was in a horrific place and in deep trouble, and how he, in New York, became really the light in a darkness, just like Dr. Billy Graham.
And the message that God allowed him to carry was much deeper than just the power of positive thinking.So if we look at that, you know, I think secularism tries to just make it that: secular.Like, “Oh, think positive. Humanistic.”But the Bible has so much to say about this.And Dr. Norman Vincent Peale was beyond a one-trick pony.He was not just a one-message person.He had a lot of depth.
In fact, the very first sermon that Mr. Trump quoted back to me was not the power of positive thinking.It was a sermon about—I think his name was [Alfred] Sloan, the head of GE [General Electric], and he was telling me the points.He knew the very points in that sermon.And one of those I think he adopted deeply within his life is never quit.But with Dr. Peale, you look at Romans 12.“Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is the good, acceptable and perfect will of the Lord.”You look at Philippians 4:8.“Think on these things. Whatever is pure, holy, just, virtue, if there be any praise.”
So he was taking the word of God in a time that, much like right now—I mean, look at the latest CDC report with our daughters that are suffering from depression; almost a third of young girls under 18 have tried to commit suicide.2That was released, what, last year, I think.And so when we look at stuff like that, as a pastor who is appropriate and dealing with where we really are, how do I bring the Gospel and the message of salvation and the love of God and all that it encompasses throughout those 67 books, into a very relevant message?That's what Dr. Norman Vincent Peale was.
So to minimize Mr. Trump, to “He only had power of positive thinking,” is a grave mistake.This man has depth to him, a lot of depth, and that includes spiritual depth.He absolutely—he's a Christian.He believes Jesus is the son of God.He understands redemption.He's not a theologian.He's not studied the Bible, as most people haven't their whole life.So if a reporter or interviewer is coming at him with a theological question, like 99.9 percent of people, they're probably not going to get it right.
He deeply understands the power of faith, and he's yet a very private person.And to be quite honest with you—well, I'm skipping way ahead now, but when it came to the campaign in 2014-15—and we'll get into that, how I got involved and what I was doing—I was the one, after I saw a few really not so nice things that they were hitting him with, and even people who were supposed to be good people, like when we went to Liberty, I was there with him.3And we had all flown out, me and my husband Jon [Cain], and the first lady, there's the president, Ivanka [Trump], Jared [Kushner], etc.So we were all there.
And I walk up, and I pray with him.And they have a little tunnel right before you go onto the stage.So I always pray over him. He loves prayer.And I pray over him, give him the thumbs up and go sit with the family and go sit with everyone.[Former Trump campaign manager] Corey Lewandowski is there.And so that's where the “Two Corinthians” came, and the media just went crazy.And so when he came off the stage, Corey looks at him and says, “It's Second Corinthians.”He looked at me, he said, “Paula?” And I said, “It's Second Corinthians.”And he looked at me, and he said, “Well, that's not what he said.”I'm not going to name who “he” was, but he points to a pastor who happened to be supporting [Sen.] Ted Cruz at the time—he didn't know that, but I'm saying that—and he points to a pastor, and I thought, oh, boy, this is a different playing field.
And he said he [the pastor] said to him—and he gave him the Scripture, “Where the spirit of God is, there is liberty.”And so the pastor had literally said, “Say ‘Two Corinthians,’” so he respects pastors.And admirably, he never got up and defended himself.4I wanted to.He never said, “Well, this is the truth behind that.”And I watched the media slaughter him and say things, which—it's just ridiculous, as they have in so many other areas.
I want to say most people aren't going to be able to quote a Bible verse or anything else.But I recognized at that point—and there were a few other things that I saw them coming [at] him with, some theological questions.And I, after a very big pastors' meeting, and him just sharing his heart, and he had so many of those pastors' meetings behind the scenes—and I'm skipping too much.I'd like to get into that chronologically, because it didn't just go from 20 years ago up to that.But so you understand, like, why he's more private, because he was so proud of his faith.He had his confirmation picture.He loved just telling about his childhood, Dr. Norman Vincent Peale, the profound preachers that have impacted his life, the times that he knew God was with him and God was there.And you know, I say he's a James 2 Christian often.He lives his faith by his works.Faith without works is dead, which I know that's even—it's such a private matter to him in those.
But I'm the one that said to him at that time, around 2015, I went up.There was another well-respected person with me that both was in ministry and was well known in political realms, and I said, “Sir,” I said, “this is a different day.”And I said, “I really am going to advocate for you to consider keeping your faith a very private matter.”And so I was the one that pushed that.And I think you might go, “Well, why are you doing this interview then?”
I think that times have changed, and I think that his story, which I can take you all through the White House and all through these years of faith, and you can see it just in so many aspects, it's time for it to be told.And I think he's more comfortable.I'm certainly more comfortable sharing it.But at the time, from the day they went down the escalator, it was just twisted, and I thought, this is not a battle you need to.
And he's a private person in areas.You know, businesswise and politically, he's every—people sometimes see what I'd say, you know, that tougher shell.He's a gentleman. He's a private man.There's another side that I'm grateful to be able to share here today.
Donald Trump’s Family
… You talked about your own faith journey and your own trauma in your past.And one of the stories we look at is his parents, and it sounds like his dad is sort of a demanding father, and he has a brother who has a tragic end.Did you get a sense of that from him about his childhood?Did he see it in positive terms?Did he talk about having gone through some of those things?
… So the family, you know, I heard so many stories about his relationship with his father, his relationship with his siblings, his relationship with his mother, and the impact—and other people that had tremendous impact, but mostly a lot of family members.He always talked about his dad's work ethic and how his dad loved what he did, like it never felt like work, like he always loved it.And he always talked to me about how he's a very disciplined, like their family going to church regularly, that they did everything as a family.
I think he loved his mom's flamboyance and charisma and tenderness.But she was strong, very strong.A woman of prayer, very influential on him.So I think that his mother and father had a tremendous balance on him.I haven't seen many people talk about his mom as much, but she had a tremendous impact on him.And they both did.In fact, when we were doing Robert [Trump]'s funeral, he wanted it to be just identical to both his mom and his father, because he really adored his family, and does.Anyone that knows him knows how much he loves his family.And that's the tender side to him.If you hear him talk to even his adult children and the endearing terms and terminology he uses with them, it's quite different than the portrait that I've seen other people portray.He is a great father, a great brother and sibling and I'd say a great son.
And his brother Fred [Trump Jr.]—you mentioned that he [Trump] doesn’t drink, and he said that watching Fred's decline was the reason for that.
Absolutely.
Was that something, watching Fred, was that something that stuck with him and shaped him?
Absolutely. We talked about that.It's the reason he didn't drink.It was very—when I'm going to say devastating, it's hard to watch anyone that you love suffer with an illness, and that was impactful to him.He would line the kids up, Eric and Ivanka and Don Jr., and he'd line them up every morning, and as they would get ready, of course, he'd give them their lunch and kiss them, and all the way through, from the time they were little.And he would say, “No drugs, no alcohol, no smoking.”And Eric's like, “Dad, but I'm six.”It was like he was really, like, “We don't do that.”
So obviously, that was a strong part of, “This is the devil's playground.This is not good for you.”
The Other Side of Trump
Were you surprised, when you met him, he had gone through the very—by that point, he had gone through the very public divorce, all of the sort of tabloid scandals.Did you see somebody surprising from your impression that you would had of him from all of that?
I try, when I meet someone, never to be judgmental.I think a good communicator has to be a good listener, so I try to practice being very present and being a great listener and not going in with my own judgment or my own formation.And he was the one that opened up about his life and opened up about his failures and his successes and his private life, and understood—I think he, like many people, always want to know, is God redemptive a second time, a third time, a fourth time?It mattered.And that was an important part of what every single person that's gone through any kind of setback or failure in a situation is always looking like: “Where is God in this picture?”
A lot of people see Donald Trump, and they say he's not somebody who admits he's made a mistake, and he's not somebody who has humility.You see the public Trump as well that other people see.How do you square that?
I think there is—so let's do square this, because I think this is an important part.I understand the public persona of him.I understand the tough New York businessman.I understand just why that is there, and if I were—this is the dumbest statement ever, but if I were in that kind of responsibility and that kind of culture, that kind of climate that he's been in for most of his adult life, you have to have that toughness.To a certain degree, that is a very strategic and tactical part of a personality that survives in that.
I also have seen the father, the husband, the friend, the person of faith.I've seen that.I've seen the gentleness of just him always—if we were somewhere and he started to interrupt or say something, he would just, “I'm sorry.”The gentleness there too, the counterbalance to that.
I’ll give you an example.This was kind of a tough one, but he had used some words publicly that weren't the best words, obviously.They're cuss words, right?Not the best words.And he was president at this time and under a lot of pressure.
And I started—my phone was blowing up.And I know him, so I waited until the next morning, and it was still weighing heavy on me, and I called him up, and I said, “Sir,” I said, “you know, last night, when you said,” I said, “that's probably not the best choice.”And he said, “Oh, Paula,” he goes—and he literally referenced, like, “That's a New York business.”And I said, “It's going to shut down, especially a woman's spirit.They won't hear what you're saying.”
And he heard that and went, “I didn't mean it like that.”But he wasn't defensive at all.I said, “I know that,” and literally did not say it again, literally, because it's not that he doesn't hear.It's not that he's like—it's the exact opposite, in many cases.So, you know, there's this other side that people don't see.But is he going to get up and publicly apologize, like, “I'm so sorry I said that”?No. And nor do I think he should, because he's taking the focus on the past of something instead of moving forward and making correction.
The Apprentice
… I want to move forward through time.But you visited him on the set of <i>The Apprentice</i>, I gather.
Many times.
What is it like? And is he in his element?You know, he had been a businessman and a brand up until that point.How important, when you see him there on the set?What is that like? How important is it?
Very enjoyable. Many times.I didn't only spend time on <i>The Apprentice</i>, but often in his office.Like I said, I had a church up in New York, so from the early 2000s on, I spent a lot, a lot of time in New York.So I was in his office, would watch people come, watch them go.And I'd sit there almost like a fly on the wall, and I'd think, I'm going to be kicked out of here in any second.And it was always, “If you're in town, stop by.” So I would.
But on <i>The Apprentice</i>, one time I was in town, and he said, “Oh, Paula, come on.You've got to come on the set.”And first off, just watching how involved he was, number one, watching the excellence.I think there was 300-and-something people that literally, like there was an engineer, there was an assistant engineer to the engineer to the engineer to the sound.And he is so attentive to detail, of understanding, like, not just—he was a natural at doing the boardroom, doing that, getting all—the television part was, I'm not going to say easy for him, but he was a natural at it.But what all made that happen and how he understood the process or everything …
So I remember we were—and the reason I bring up the engineers is because the first time he asked me to pray, we were there at the—there were cameras like this, and the sound engineer board, etc.And he said, “Paula, pray for them,” just out of the blue.And he does that often.I said, “Yes, sir.”And so I grabbed everyone's hand, and they bowed their heads, and we all prayed, prayed for <i>The Apprentice</i>, prayed for them.Perhaps he knew something about the people's lives that I didn't.He didn't ever share that with me.He just asked me to pray.
And that was often.And so what did I notice about <i>The Apprentice</i>?The excellence, that everything had excellence to it; the attention to detail; how much he was involved in the whole process of it; and the fact that he—this is something I don't know if people know so much.He genuinely cares so much about people.My gut is probably, when he had me pray for the sound engineers, etc., he probably knew something that I had no idea about.Perhaps somebody had just lost someone, or maybe they were going through a divorce or a sickness, or—he does that so often: “Paula, please pray for this person.”
He's very considerate.He doesn't go around and talk about that.But look, I have seen him so many times.I tell the story, early on, we were in California, and he had taken me to—he had just built the golf course there and the housing, etc.So he was taking me there.And he was showing me the homes.It was beautiful.I had a half day off, so we're looking at everything.And he goes over, and he goes, “I've got to show you the golf course, though.”So we go over, and there is this man that is raking his, you know, golf course there, doing the sand trap.So he looks at me, he's like, “Got some time?”I said, “I've got a little bit of time.I don't have to leave yet.”And so he stops, walks over, and I could tell you this literally about 50 to 100 different stories.Walks over to the man, talks with him, shakes his hand and says, “Thank you so much for taking care of my golf course.” …
What Draws Trump to Politics
I understand that in 2011, you talked to him about whether he should run for president, and I want to ask you about that, but also about what it is that draws him into politics.At that point, he’d even talked about it before that.Why?He's quite successful as a reality-TV star at that point.Why would he want to get into politics?And what advice did you give him at that point?
Well, it's interesting, because he has been quite successful.This is the man who has not only come back multiple times, but what has he not succeeded in?He's got an amazing family, amazing friends, successful in business, successful now on television, successful in almost everything—golf courses, sports, TV.I mean you name it, right?
And so in 2011, he said to me, and this is what I believe motivated him for running for president, he said, “Paula, I don't like the way this country is going.”And it was really starting—I know he had made statements on policy since he was in his 20s.You know, this is not like Mr. Trump, President Trump, that starts making policy statements later in life.This has been very much a part of his life, understanding the impact of policy and policy matters, because people matter, so therefore politics has to matter.
And he cares about that policy, deeply.
So he said he was really bothered by the direction and felt—and if you ever watch him listen to the “Star-Spangled Banner” or “God Bless America” or anything, red, white and blue, he is moved in a very reverent way, very reverent way.It deeply, deeply touches him.And so when he said to me, “I don't like the way this country is going,” he said, “I'm thinking about running for president.”He said, “What do you think?”
So I started telling him what I thought.And we just—it was the conversation.And then he looked at me, and he said, “What is God saying?”Now, I think he was asking me, “Have you prayed about this?”That would be my way of saying it.And when he said that to me, though, it really hit me, I mean really deeply hit me, because that's serious words to me.And I said, “Sir, let me”—I basically said, “Let me get back to you on this.”
So I asked him if I could bring people to pray.There's a lot behind this about how saturated in prayer this whole relationship has been, because way before I met him, I was praying for him.It was just a crazy thing.So prayer has been this underlying theme of something he loves and something I love.And so I invited about 30-something people to Trump Tower, and we went on the floor that holds the conference room, etc., and we prayed about probably six hours, I would say.
Now, he would come in and come out, but he did stay in for that last part, talked to people, said hello, etc.And I think a lot of people don't know this about how, at least from my part, and his presidency and the campaign, where it really started, it was birthed in a room of 30-something people praying.I mean, from the standpoint of what secular or the media would call the evangelicals, we weren't talking policy or drilling.It wasn't political, or how can we win.It was, what does God have to say about this?And we really sought God.
And so I walked up to his office.He went back to his office, and I walked up.And he said, “Well.”And I'm not much of a crier.I'm kind of a little bit tough.I'm not the crying type unless I get really moved or touched by God.And I said, “Sir, I believe you're going to be president one day.”And a little tear rolled down my eye.I'll never forget this moment, because I said, “But I hate to see the price you're going to pay.”I believe that was words spoken by God.And I said to him, “But now is not the timing.”
And when I said that, about the price he'd pay, no one, no one had any kind of concept or idea of what this man would go through and his family would go through in order to serve our country and to serve people and to serve God.It's unfathomable what he's gone through and what he's been put through.
All this is to say, those prayer meetings didn't stop.So we just kept praying.So when people see 2016, they don't see five years carried in prayer, or to this day, prayer groups all over the country, all over the world.Today I shared with a handful of people I'd be coming here.There are people in Israel praying.There are people all throughout the Asian continent, Africa praying, people in the United States praying.And that's only about six people that I shared this with, because there's so many strong prayer groups that really believe, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on the earth, hallowed be thy name.We believe that prayer brings the will of God to pass on the earth, so this has been saturated by prayer because people of deep faith really believe that God hears our prayers, and they matter.
How did he react when you told him that?
I know he looked at me very, very reverently, is the way I'd say he looked at me.He has this look that's really—he's got a lot of looks.I love his smile the best.But that look of he absolutely received that, and he took that in and heard that.So I believe that he received it.That's part of my—when I say the role, for many years, he would say, “Paula is my pastor.”For many years, I said, “I am his pastor.”It gets funny in the political world.It's just—but this is the relationship that I have with him.
And that is one of a very pastoral, and yet my husband, Jon, and I are very close with him and his family.But the relationship of the utmost importance to me is to me, and this has been taken all out of context.One time I said, “This is an assignment from God,” and they took it like, “If you don't stand with him, you're not,” as if I was blanketing everyone in the world.I'm saying, for me, this is an assignment from God, because we all have personal calls and duties and responsibilities and specific purposes that we carry out.And that was very clear from the very beginning.
So when I share something with him, and he knows that I have saturated that with prayer, he—look, this is a 20-something-year relationship.It wouldn't be that long if he didn't hear me and respect what I had to say.
Trump Decides to Run for President
… To move on to the decision to run, and to move towards 2015 and 2016, what was your insight into that process, into that decision, that now it was the time?
Well, we continued to pray.We continued to talk.We continued to just look at the direction of the country, talk through things.It wasn't like on the back burner and then all of a sudden the escalator.This was, like I said, there was prayer going on.There were prayer groups activated.There were prayer points being put out, because that would be a huge decision if he did run for it.
The defining moment to me was 2014, because I remember Jon and I were standing in the kitchen, and he called up, and he said, “I'm going for it.”I said, “Yes, sir.”Now, this was before—there's no political team.You know, I'm sure he's talked to people, but there's not this formal, “This is my political adviser; this is my campaign manager.”There's not this whole formal team put together, at least that I'm aware of.
And he said, “Paula,” he said, “I'm going for it.”I said, “Yes, sir?”He said, “I'll be president, and you're going to be the faith director.”And I thought to myself, well, certainly he knows what he's doing.How can you know when you've never done this?I said, “I have no idea what I'm doing.”“So God, I'm just seeking you,” because I—that's what I knew to do.And I just continued to start prayer groups.
Then I began to introduce him to people, and that was really a key, because I've been in ministry a long time, since I was virtually 18 years old, 19 years old.And so I have amazing relationships with people that reach all different spectrums of Christianity, and God has just uniquely positioned me to—because, as you know, there are so many different denominations.There are so many different ways within Christianity.And within what I would call Bible-believing Christianity, there is still what I would call the right, and when I say—people are going to think political terms, so I don't even want to use that.There is more—how do you explain 45,000 different denominations?There's different sects and beliefs within that, and people that wouldn't even say that a woman should be a preacher, and certainly not a pastor, are dear friends of mine.And so we’ve all come together over working for hurting humanity over the years, I mean decades, and we all believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.And so I had the great privilege, then, of just bringing people in front of him, whether it was casual, because they were in New York, or whether it was more formal, of let's bring 20 people together or 30 people together.
And he would hear them—I mean, hours with them—and they would hear him.And I loved it, because I just watched the “aha” moments.So there was so much that was taking place, because all I wanted to do was introduce this person that I had a relationship with.I wanted them to know the Donald Trump that I knew, and that was an extremely generous man; he was very resolute.I think people were a little surprised at some of his policy opinions and where he stood on things.
But he would give the story to that where he stood and why he stood, and that back story made sense of why he now would take a stand on something.So people would just throw him all these questions and ask him stuff.And it was quite interesting.Some were like, “You've got to be more bold,” and some were like, “You need to tone it down.”
So everyone—and he just digested it all.And he listened to them.And I'll never forget one of those meetings.We were up at the very top floor, right?And if you’ve been in Trump Tower there on Fifth Avenue, you're looking down, it's like, you can't straight look down.It looks a little, because it's so high up.And he said, “See that guy down on”—he said, “You are the most powerful people.”He said, “You have the influence.”He said, “You preach the word of God.”And he has such a deep respect for how the word of God forms a person.He said, “You're the most powerful people.”He said, “Your voice changes, understands like, if you have the power to communicate the Gospel, what a responsibility and what a privilege and who you are carrying that.”He said, “You're the most powerful people on the earth.”He said, “But that man down there has more power than you.”And they looked at—it looks like a little ant, little peanut.He said, “Because they've tried to silence your voice.”
Now, he had gone and done research on the Johnson Amendment, and he was like, “How can your First Amendment right be taken?5Why don't you use your voice to advocate for issues and policy and people?You're the ones that care the most about people.Look what you do every day.”And he was so passionate about that.And he was determined—and there's three things that I, in my opinion, really, really drive him, and drove him in his presidency.But he was very determined to make sure that people of faith always had their voice.
5
The Free Speech Center: Johnson Amendment
And I think that's because the formation.It's not just a man that started faith—in fact, we kind of pulled the faith part back, and that was part of my recommendation, because I saw what the media was doing, and just the whole way that it was treating him.I said, “This is ridiculous,” because this is a man that was born into a home of faith.This is a man that practiced his faith growing up.
This is a man that had faith, and still has great faith, through the good times, the bad times, through the times he was right, through the times he was wrong, through the times he was standing strong, through the times he had fallen.He never let go of his faith.He never walked away from God.
It might be hard for some of us to remember—I don’t think it will be hard for you to remember—that there was a lot of skepticism toward candidate Trump at that point.And Ted Cruz is in the campaign and was sort of seen as the candidate of evangelical Christians, and people looked at Trump, and they said his opening message about immigrants didn't seem to be a Christian sentiment.He has the background, going back to the divorce that we've talked to, this sort of playboy image.How did you see that playing out, and what did you make of those criticisms that he was getting from fellow Christians?
Well, first off, it reminds me a lot of the stories in the Bible, doesn't it you?I mean, the people went, here's Saul; he's perfect.He's got the perfect résumé.Give us a king. Give us a king.You know, he doesn't have any sin in his life.He doesn't have adultery, like David's going to have.He doesn't have all these disqualifications.
And yet there’s this ruddy guy, David, that's very questionable, that his own father doesn't believe in him, because when Samuel the prophet goes down to anoint one of Jesse's sons that will be king one day, because God gives the prophet a word, he doesn't even—the father doesn't even consider David in the lineup, which tells us a lot about his background.
And he's like, “Are you sure, Jesse, there's not one more child?”And then you look at the progression of David's life, just all the failures, all the things that he did, and yet the Book of Acts says that he did all the will of the Lord.So I think sometimes man looks on the outside, which God said that very clearly to David and Saul, that man looked on the outside, but God sees the inside.
And what do we mean by that?God is looking—why did David fulfill all the will of the Lord?And I think this is very similar to Mr. Trump.It says that he had a heart after God.But the literal etymology of that, the literal translation, is that basically, he had a heart that was inclined to God, a heart that would be obedient.So what that's saying is that he would do it.He would not just—it wasn't that he was this perfect person.He was very flawed.
Mr. Trump is quite aware of the things that are right with him.He's quite aware of the areas that God's mercy and redemption have come into his life, and he's receiving of that.Like I said, he's not the kind of guy that's going to go back and wallow.He is not a victim.He is, God has something better for me tomorrow, and he's going to continue.
I'll never forget, and I'll answer that with the Christians, but I'll never forget, he was doing Bill Zanker's The Learning Annex.They were paying him crazy kind of money for an hour.There was Tony Robbins and George Foreman and all these big speakers.And every speech, because I was on part of those—I did sometimes the same day, sometimes different days that I would speak, and I would talk about the spiritual side to certain things and the message of Christ.So he was doing it, and on his sixth point, his last point was, “Never quit.”
And he would use a friend as an example.And he would say how he walked away from his company and took his hands off of it, and then the company went way down and how he could never really get back in the game.His thing in life was, don't quit.Like every day, get up.Every day, put your hand to purpose.Every day, keep going.If the banks are rejecting you, if the banks are giving you a ton of money, if your family is at the best it's ever been, if your family is falling apart, you've got to continue to go.
And that really is, he has this incredible fortitude on the inside of him.So how do Christians look?Christians can be very judgmental, like anyone.Obviously, that's all throughout the word of God, that God deals with it real serious, with slander and gossip and division and everything else.And I wish we had our act better together, but we don't, and so we can be very judgmental.And people listen to the sound bites or hear the clips and maybe don't get time to know the man.
And so, though it was small settings that I had those opportunities for years now, to bring 20 or 30 or 40 people, in the White House, we brought over 10,000 pastors.6That was because he wanted them—10,000 pastors to the White House.Think about that: 384,000 houses of worship.We brought—I should say this.They weren't all pastors—10,000 faith leaders, because we had rabbis.We had everyone there.Of course Muslims, Sikhs, Mormon, Christian—we had absolutely everyone, because he understands the importance of faith.
Look how he campaigned on religious liberty.He did this in the beginning.Talk about the Christians.He said, “I'm going to put ‘Merry’ back in Christmas.”That is a huge religious liberty campaign, because something in him said, “Hey, this isn't right that we're X'ing Christ out in the public square.This isn't right that we can't talk about our faith and that we're being basically scrutinized, and our voices being taken away from us.”
So I remember, he was just sitting there, and he said, just out of the blue, “I'm going to put ‘Merry’ back in Christmas.”Later, I just thought, that's the best religious liberty campaign.It's so simple, but it's so true.So I think Christians tried to judge—not all—some people tried to judge a book by its cover, and they're going to look—he went through a divorce; he had scandals; he had this; he had that.But I think anyone who really has read the Bible and is a Bible-believing Christian, first off, they have skeletons in their own closet, and we all have something that we wouldn't want on public display, or we wouldn't want to run for office or campaign because here goes all of our mess, you know.
And like the woman at the well, Jesus is like, “Yeah, you've been married before, five times, and now you've got a situation.”He loved sitting with the sinners.Jesus loved the broken.God loves the broken.So I think when—you know, we can't just categorize or stereotype here and say all people thought one way of him.That's not true.A lot of people were very open, wanted to hear.They were curious.They didn't know, because they saw <i>The Apprentice</i>; they saw <i>The Art of the Deal</i>.They knew that side to him.
So I was so privileged and honored to share the other side, and just telling the stories, talking about times together, or him with his grandchildren, and them seeing it, or him interacting with his workers or him with his kids, him on the golf course.Just an amazing human being, an amazing man, and a very generous man.
I'll tell you a story real quick.And well, let me finish this, and then I’ll go back to the story.So you brought up that he went to immigration.Again, he's going into the political arena.And I think many people would look, and we see these images on television, a lot of different images, a lot of different sound bites, a lot of different ways.Most people are concerned about—and you said that's not the Christian way.
So that, again, is stereotyping in some ways, right, because most people are very concerned about securing the border.I think everyone realizes, whether you're Israel or whether you're Europe—look at Europe, what they—they had very few people come over the beginning of this year, into England—I mean a few hundred.And it was a huge story.I remember reading it, going over there around August or so.
So people are concerned about securing the border.Everyone who—most people in a free nation believe in the sovereign rights of that nation and believe that for their home.Not anybody should just be able to walk in your door, right, and come in your house.You have rights if they come into your home.So most people believe that.
Then, outside of securing the border, there is an immigration situation.And those I see as two intertwined things but also two separate things, that one, we have to secure the border, and then the immigration.I can't speak to why he said or what he was talking about or his motivation on that early-on speech, but I can speak to how he feels about those situations.And securing the border is very, very priority to him, and the sovereignty.And then recognizing there is a plethora of people that are coming over in some really horrific conditions, and I personally have walked through this every step of the way, because I wanted to understand, as a person who has spent my life in other countries and caring about people, and have been to over 100 countries, I wanted to know, because I deeply care about people.Like, what is the process? ...Then the people that aren't even getting through the processing, because they're coming over in the droves, of course, usually have debts on their head, often human trafficking, slave labor.I've held women that cry and go, “I don't want to marry him,” because they have been sent to do something.
So it's like, people are promised a better life.Who doesn't want to come to America for a better life?And we want people to come to America for a better life.But we also want to say we can't ignore the problems that go along with that, whether it's fentanyl, whether it's gang members, human trafficking, slave trafficking.We can't bury our heads, and he is the type of leader that is strong enough and compassionate enough to really solve this and to get it done.And that's a big part of who he is.
Trump’s Rhetoric
… I think what I'm wondering about is the dichotomy between the person you're telling the [audience] about and the person a lot of people see, which is not about the policy on immigration but the rhetoric on it.You can see the debates and making fun of the opponents, talking about John McCain, those types of things, the language, the rhetoric.How did you understand that dichotomy?Did it ever give you a pause when he would say something about one of his opponents or describe people in a certain way?
Yeah, way before politics.You know, this is Mr. Trump.He is a person that uses sound bites, but not all the time.So let's balance out the language part.So even if—like, I've been in meetings, I've been in situations where the camera has been on, and if you take a sound bite, and you edit it—I've done media 25 years now—and if you edit that down, you can put whatever message out you want.
Now, does that mean he doesn't ever make sound bites and say stuff?No. I was the one that said, “Hey, you said something that hit me a little bit hard.”And I went, “Oh, man.”And so I waited to see, and I called him up and talked about it to him.
And he wasn't defensive.He wasn't like, “Oh, my gosh.”He recognized, like, that wasn't the best use of words in that situation.Other times, he's going to—look, he is his own man, and he's a strong thinker.He listens.He hears you, especially depending, I think, on that kind of proximity and the kind of relationship that you have with him.But at the same time, he has got a formed opinion. …
I've watched when we were in those early rallies, and I thought, this is really oddly weird.It'd be like somebody would just suddenly disrupt it, and when they'd disrupt it, they would create this chaos and stuff.And Jon looked over at me and said, “They're a paid actor.”My husband is a little more intuitive and sharp than I am with that.And I'd be like, “You're kidding me.”He said, “Paula, that's a total setup right there.
So I've watched the media take that sound bite.I've also watched where he's stopped rallies because somebody fainted, or he stopped it because something really touched his heart, and he articulated or brought someone up or did something for them right there on the spot and in that moment.Was it ever shown on TV? No.7
You know, you've really got to balance this out.Does he use sound bites sometimes that can be offensive?Of course he's done that.Does the media take things out of context often?Absolutely.I think I've been more privileged to hear the whole narrative and not just the sound bite, and so hearing the whole narrative and going from not just a rally to a rally or being able to walk life with him for 20 years, the narrative's really clear to me of who he is. …
The Access Hollywood Tape
The biggest example of the early campaign was probably the <i>Access Hollywood</i> moment, when it was the media, and it was also senior people in the Republican Party who thought that voters, Christian voters would abandon him at that moment.I don't know if you talked to candidate Trump at that time or if you had your own impressions about whether it would fracture the coalition you'd been building.
Talked to him within five minutes.I talked to him right away.And I was on the phone, and he was not wondering—this is hard, because this is truly a pastoral moment.So you're asking me to come in, and it would be like you going to your priest or you going to your pastor and to disclose what's a private moment.And I pray that President Trump will be OK with me sharing this one thing, and I pray you guys do it in the right narrative, because I talked to him right away.
And I would simply say this: that he was not going, “Oh, what's this going to do with me politically?Oh, what about the Christian vote?”Not at all.The most concerning thing to him, immediately, I'll say this: All we talked about was his family.It was a pastoral conversation, and when a person has relationship, they aren't thinking from—first words aren't just coming from here.It's coming from here, from what's in your heart, what's in your spirit.
And so did we go on and have a conversation with—did I talk to pastors?Absolutely.I put pastors—we were on the phone for days and days.And by that time, though, people had gotten to know him.And what I say by that, that's important, because there's a lot of things that can be brought up in all of our lives.
Trump is Elected President
You said to him, in 2011, that you thought he would be president and that the cost was going to be great.There's this moment with <i>Access Hollywood</i>, and he does become president.He is elected at the end of that.I want to ask you about what happens to him after, but let me just ask you about that moment, the moment that he's elected.What was your reaction to that?Did it feel like what you had said was coming true?
We were all there.It started out, I saw him that morning, saw him that day, campaign headquarters, went over to where everybody was.Family.I remember it being a very long night.I remember just—I was at peace all night.I was having a great time.I remember that.Like I was thinking, this is amazing.I was praising God.My son, who, I remember him going—he tells now the story, he said he went to bed thinking, this was such a long shot, right, that it would just never happen.And he is much more politically astute than I was at the time.Started in political science, changed his major over from that.
But I say that because he went to bed, and his wife later told me he said, “Man, I just—my mom's going to be so disappointed tomorrow.”He was so concerned—like the rest of the world, they just were sure Hillary [Clinton] was going to win.I didn't feel that, but there were a lot of reasons.There was the God part to me.There was prayer.There was that part of faith that believed. ...So I also saw—when you asked about the night of the election, it wasn't a surprise there was a God aspect.But I also saw his work.I saw how people interacted with him.I saw the love between people, not because of what he was saying from the podium, because a lot of what he did outside of that podium.
And when you say the God aspect, I mean, do you think—
When I say what?
The God aspect.
Yeah.
—does he think, do you think that his election that year was the result of God?And in what way do you mean that if you did?
So I say that all the time, and I say that to him.I tell him, “You were a mantle that you don't fully understand.”Now, are some people going to criticize me for this?Of course.Are some people going to say, he is—he receives that and takes that in.He trusts me.He trusts my voice.He knows that I don't play when it comes to things of God, that I'm not going to casually say that.I personally believe I'd be held accountable for that.I don't flippantly say that.It's serious to me.
You know, to me, there is a—I'm not going to take these years of my life if I don't believe there's purpose to it, that I truly believe I stand before the Lord one day and give an account for my life.So I live very intentional, very purposeful.I would not do this just like, “Oh.”There's no desire for me to go, “Oh, I want it.I feel called to do this.”My assignment has always been, first and foremost, to him, and then that includes the purpose that he carries.So I have always said that; others have said that. …
Everybody's going to say he overexaggerates himself, right?He's not going to overexaggerate himself that God is sitting there going, “I chose you.”But others are going to say to him, “You've been chosen by God.”Now does he receive that?He's very reverent about the things with God.Very reverent.To those that he has relationship with, to those that he knows, he personally knows, these are men and women of God.He's got some kind of relationship there.It's important to him, and it's not political.It's been way before politics.
… What was it like on Inauguration Day to deliver the invocation, to look out on that crowd?I think you're the first, at least, female minister or pastor.What is that moment like, and with this man who you've known for all those years?
Extremely humbling, extremely.You know, everybody said it was going to rain.We had not gotten any sleep.We had several services, from the family service to the St. John's service, more private, to the more public service.So there were many different things that I was helping orchestrate, some of the speakers, or because he wanted certain people to speak, he wanted certain people to do things, etc.
And I remember they'd sat Jon over kind of behind—my husband—behind the family, up, and I'm sitting there in the midst of all the former presidents.And I look up, because number one, I'm really tired, and I'm overwhelmed with extreme gratitude.I'm looking at him and First Lady and the children.Just feeling this surreal moment of deep, profound gratitude.And when I say humility, not like I'm a worm, but like God, you're so good.Like, I just was overwhelmed.
And I remember looking up because the sky was starting to split, the clouds.It looked like it's going to rain, and I just looked up, and it felt like a—I just felt the presence of God.It felt like a real sovereign moment.
And I was a little nervous, you know.I was a little fearful.And in that moment, like, the anxiety and the fear just went away, and I just absorbed it.It's like everything stopped.And it was historical.It was overwhelming.I was so proud—proud of all the work we'd done, proud of the decisions we'd all made, because you all have to make that personal decision.And any time you can follow God's will, for me, or I could walk away, I remember—people think this was a cakewalk for me. …
No matter how tough this gets, no matter if we’re on a high high or a low low, you have to walk through both the valleys and on the mountaintop when you serve purpose.
So the inauguration was one of the mountaintops serving that purpose.I just thought one day—I adore my granddaughter and my grandson.Probably some my proudest moments are being a grandma, you know, family moments.And I thought to myself, wow, Asher's going to read one day that her grandmother was the first female pastor [to deliver the inaugural invocation], which breaks a lot of ceilings right there.And the president, actually, when I walked in his office after we had won, he said, "Paula, you're going to pray the inauguration."I said, "Thank you, sir."I said, "I'm extremely honored."And the team was all around him.Reince [Priebus] and Steve [Bannon] and Jared—everybody was in the office that day.
And I said, "I'm extremely honored."And I said, "But I honestly think you should consider a team," I said, "because there's a lot of division in our country, and I love that you gave me this moment, but I think it should be shared with others."And of course he went, "That's a great idea," and he started naming who he wanted.Some of them, two people, we—but he started naming, you know, he wanted Cardinal [Timothy] Dolan; he wanted—he knew what he wanted.
It was a very special moment to me.It was a mountaintop moment.
White’s Role as Adviser for the Faith and Opportunity Initiative
… So to your role in the White House as a spiritual adviser to the president, I mean, is it a personal job that you have with him as a minister?Is it a political liaison?What's your job?
So let's clarify this, OK?That's a great question because people want to know.So as I met Mr. Trump early on, relationship formed, and he considered me his pastor.Now, I wasn't formally or didn't take a public role of that, but I've always been a part of that.As the campaign came along, people started calling me his spiritual adviser, and once a narrative gets out there, it's pretty much out there, right?So you're fighting up a culture and a news media, etc.So I went from pastor to spiritual adviser.
Well, when the White House came, I took an official position, so I was adviser to the president of Faith and Opportunity Initiative.In Faith and Opportunity Initiative, President Trump had seven initiatives that were vitally important to him, and he took—the White House had had a faith office before, but it usually had a director, etc.He really amped that up to a whole another level.
So as adviser to the president, I worked with both OPL [Office of Public Liaison], and I also worked with policy.And so we would work with everything, and then he took each Cabinet, and not just each Cabinet, but every agency, he wanted a faith director, legal team, staff, budget, everything.So he made sure that that was expanded through his presidency, through his entire administration. …
So President Trump understood the importance of faith, and he understood the importance of that for working with that within policy.And when I say working with that within policy, he understood that strong faith was important. ...
When we see those images from the White House, and you're in some of them, of people with their hands praying around President Trump, how should we understand what's going on and how he sees a moment like that?
Those are not photo ops.Most of those were just taken randomly and got out.That was a regular occurrence at the White House.That's was a regular occurrence in his life.That was a regular occurrence at the RNC nomination.That was regular at every main event in his life.That's regular every single time I walked into Trump Tower, not just with me.People have been praying for him for a long time.It means something to him.
He would often say to me, "Paula, come over.Come over and pray.Pray over the office.Pray over the family.Pray over this."So there's a lot of things that were so important, whether it was his grandchildren's baptism and chrismation and personal family times.Prayer is a big part.
So those images that got public, it wasn't a staging at the White House.It was normal, every day.You couldn't almost walk around the White House without running into somebody who would pray.It was just so—it was part of our everyday, normal life.I'm trying to think, how do people see that from the outside?It was just so normal to us on the inside, whether it was prayer or taking communion or worshipping.My office had a big communion bowl.It had Bibles that people could come take.It was just—it wasn't like we held a certain service.It's just, he lets you be who you are.
Should the people who are worried about the American government becoming Christian or losing freedom of religion, should they have been worried about what was going on?
The exact opposite, because that's why I say religious liberty is the bedrock of everything, because that gives everyone their right to worship, even if you're atheist and agnostic.It gives you your right to believe that there's not a God, or whatever you worship.So this is not discriminatory; it's liberating. …
Trump and Charlottesville
When you were talking about the height of the inauguration, you were talking about a valley in a moment where they were saying, do you want to issue a statement?I mean, it reminded me—I don't know if this was the moment you were talking about, but of Charlottesville and sort of a crisis moment inside the presidency.Was it a crisis moment for you, for President Trump?
Again, very difficult situation.I'm going to speak for me because that was—I actually was not there at that time right away or involved in being immediately by his side or advising him at that point.There were times that I was at the White House.There were times that I was back in Florida, then back up at the White House.So I know, for me, that that was a difficult time, and I'd say that how I handle something might be different from the way that comms or other people were handling it.And I've never pointedly, directly asked that where I have other situations, so I can speak from my point of view.
There are a lot of things that are difficult that people are going to use—again, some of those sound bites—and not look at the holistic of a picture.And we've discussed that quite in depth.And that's been difficulty.
So let's get down to the heart of everything, OK, because the narrative out of that became what, that President Trump is a racist, right?That would be what people would say, the narrative.That is the furthest thing from the truth.That is just the furthest thing from the truth.And I think that there are people that are now recognizing and understanding and saying President Trump is for all people.
Those accusations are one of a number of things.We talked about <i>Access Hollywood</i>, the dossier, Charlottesville, the Mueller investigation, the first impeachment.As all of those things mount, what are you thinking?How hard is it?Is it harder than even you thought that it would be back in 2011?
Boy, I can go on beyond that to where we are right now.And I'm going to use a word that I believe: witch hunt.I really believe that there has been a very aggravated, intentional wanting to take down this president and this man from the day he walked down the escalator.So do you say that it's been hard?I think it's been extremely difficult.Have people given opportunity— is there opportunity to maximize something?Is there opportunity to take advantage of something?Yeah, I think there has been, because we all at times say or do things that maybe we regret or look back and say—or that was taken completely out of context.
But I think for, again, like, us to mount and go—I am talking to you about the man that I know, and that's a man that I know very, very well.I'm talking to you about a man that I've watched agonize behind the scenes about some of the things that are going on in our country, some of the things going on with people that are hurting while I've watched simultaneously the media and I've watched people come after him, accusing him of things that he's absolutely not, when I'm watching him go out of his way, doing things that are so important to him.
So it's like building this—there's this false narrative trying to be built, and there's this real narrative that I know.
Trump’s Response to COVID
… If you talk to some people close to President Trump, they were feeling pretty good going into 2020 about the chances of reelection.And into that year, of course, COVID happens, and the pandemic happens.It is an unprecedented and an almost biblical event.How do you view that?How does he view that coming in that year?
It was devastating.I remember the day he called me in and briefed me and said that we were going to have to shut down the country, and he was very concerned.He had talked about what he'd done from early on.No one knew.We're in this global pandemic in our lifetime.We've never been where the entire world has been shut down.There's a health crisis, very real.
Think about this: He grew up in Jamaica, Queens.There's a hospital right down from where he grew up that he's now watching on television with just body bag after body bag after body bag after body bag.That's not just any hospital.Those are people to him.That kind of weight, this was—I can't even imagine.
I remember him talking about, "We need to do"—he said, "We're going to look at 30 days," because nobody knew where is this going?Nobody knew this is going to be one year, one month.You're literally walking it out.I remember all the people coming in.It was like warp speed of how they would get the vaccination out or what they would do.There was just all this movement that was taking place, and I remember how concerned he was about the churches.He said, "Paula, people need church," he said."They're going to shut down the churches; there's going to be a battle."And he knew that.And he said, "Can people"—he'd asked, "Can people have services on the outdoor lawn if they're in their car?"Because he understood the importance of faith to people's life, and in crisis time how much more we needed it, so much so, he asked to watch one of his favorite preachers.You know, he would watch—
See, I'm disclosing stuff now.He would watch on Sunday mornings at the White House and other times, and it was recommended to him that he let the public know about that.A lot of people never knew things.He called for a National Day of Prayer.He called for prayer, National Day of Prayer, like Abraham Lincoln.And like, does anyone know that?Did the media pick that up?8Did the whole country stop and pause and start praying?This was devastating.
I think of the kind of tragedy like a 9/11.Here we were, in my lifetime there's a 9/11, and then there's the pandemic, two completely different situations, completely different ways.But both extreme devastation that the country faced.And here President Trump is acting in every capacity, walking through this, and he—not someone going to him, not someone saying, “Hey, I think this is a good idea for you to do right now”—he wants a National Day of Prayer.He pulls up what he wants in it.We get that done.We put that out, and people were like, “Well, how long do we pray?”I'm like, “You pray all the way through.We pray until we see solutions and see this pandemic done with.”It was devastating. …
I'm not even going to pretend to say I know the weight that was on him.We were all—we were all under tremendous weight and pressure.And then just the practical concerns.We had to—we went to a very limited staff.There were only a handful of us in the White House that worked.We had to be tested constantly.And then anytime we were, especially around the president, there were just a lot of concerns.We were all walking through this together, and it was, for me, one of the hardest things that we've ever gone through.
And then close to the election, he himself gets sick and is hospitalized.
Very, very, very difficult.For me personally, that was one of the hardest things to watch, ever.I felt almost—you know, I, of course, was praying over him, speaking to—and this part is, this is the hard part for me because I—… I'm trying to walk that fine balance, because as a pastor, I did what pastors do during that time, and that was really hard.So that was, I'll just say it like that.That was a very, very difficult time of someone that my family and I care very deeply about, and as his pastor move out, move away now from adviser to the president and just as his pastor carrying that through in prayer and doing what pastors do.
Pastors visit the sick, though I didn't visit him when he was in isolation.But there was communication.Pastors care.Pastors make hospital visits.Pastors do funerals.Pastors do weddings.We're there in these high moments and low moments of people's life, and that was difficult.
Framing of the 2020 Election
We're also doing the story of [President Joe] Biden, and one of the interesting things about that election is, is he frames some of that election in religious terms, and he says the “soul of the nation,” and he talks about darkness and light is what's at stake.How did you feel?I think you've been quoted once saying you were battling demonic forces.How did you view that election in 2020?
Well, it's interesting.
How should we understand how you view it.
Well, I can't speak to President Biden, how he frames that because—it's really interesting; it's like this.I'm going to go off-roading for a minute, then I'm going to come back to it, because if you get into a theological debate right now, what position can a woman hold in a church, language is vitally important.So some will say, well, they can be elders, or they can be pastors.Well, it depends with all your different denominations.An elder can be one thing in a denomination, completely something else differently in another one.
So when we talk about language, it's vitally important to the framing.So let me talk about my language.I'm a person, because the media went wild with this on me, and I just had to say, boy, if the biggest thing you want to accuse me of is the way I pray—you know, it's hard.It's just hard when people are throwing daggers at you without even picking up the phone and talking to you, or saying, “Can you explain this or elaborate on this a little bit?”
I was very cut with African roots, meaning that a lot of my prayer language was formed by people from Africa.Been going to Africa for decades.And so that means I pray a little more aggressive; I pray a little more offensive, not like being offensive to people, but on the offense, not on the defense.So when I talk about spiritual warfare, Ephesians 6:12 is very real to me just as much as John 3:16 is, and that says that we're not wrestling against flesh and blood.
So let's camp right there.When I talk about it, I don't see people as the enemy; I see a spiritual battle.Says we're not wrestling against flesh and blood, but we're wrestling against principalities, powers, wickedness and darkness. …
So I say good people and sometimes not-so-good people can be used by a spirit, and if they can be used by the Holy Spirit or can be accessed by a demonic spirit, that doesn't mean this person's possessed, doesn't mean that they've yielded their soul to them.So to me, the fight for the soul of this nation—to me; I'm not saying to President Trump, to someone else, saying for me— … I align saying, does this fall on the line or on the side of good and God and light, or does it fall on the side of not?
And you can find issues probably on both sides that some fall on good and God and light and some fall on not so good and God and light.
But I guess the question is, and in fairness to you, Biden frames it almost the same way.As he's talking about the election, he's using very similar language.But I guess my question for you is, are you saying that voting for Trump is voting for goodness and voting for Biden is voting for darkness?How should we understand that?
Well, I'm saying that everyone needs to really be very educated, get understanding of what the issues are and where people stand on them. ...President Trump has been very clear on his pro-life.And that's just one.There's multiple policies that I can go through.There's multiple things that I can go through.When you sit and say we aren't living in a time, to me, that's like—look at what President Bill Clinton said—and because I used life, I'll use it again—that the abortion should be only in a “rare” time, and he went through the different things.We're not the same country.We're not the same culture.Things have changed drastically.
So when you're looking at some of the issues that we're looking at, it makes a difference.When you look at men competing in women's sports, when you look at Europe that just said, “We don't have enough scientific evidence to allow children under 18 years old to have puberty blockers,” I think it's dangerous when we start taking rights away from parents.9I think if we don't care for our elderly and for our children and for the best of everything, from the welfare of people in every area—and I'm not talking about just social systems or handouts; I'm talking about the church being the church, the synagogue being the synagogue, the mosque being the mosque, people doing what they do best at making this country great.
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U.S. News & World Report: European Countries Restrict Trans Health Care for Minors
I do believe there is a battle for the soul of this nation.I probably believe it very differently than President Biden.And I'm trying to be very kind right now and nonjudgmental.I don't know him personally, but—
Trump After the 2020 Election
… How should we understand from your perspective of Donald Trump and the period after the election, after his advisers, the media, the Electoral College have told him that he's lost the election?Because it's a big question of what he thought and who he was in that period.
… He thought he won the election.In that gap period—I remember, there was this gap.We were at the White House.There was a long period, and then we all went home, whatever time it was—it was very, very late—and then woke up the next morning and seeing the counts were just—didn't seem real.
So it wasn't just President Trump that thought he won the election.And the more that information came forth, the more he obviously, and still to this day, believes that he won the election. ...
And when you view the moment of Jan. 6, how does it fit into your understanding of his presidency and the American history that you've become a part of?
Again, you're asking something that is—I think you're asking, did I view it like the rest of the world viewed it through the media, which I didn't.So that's kind of an unfair question to me because I didn't see it through the eyes of media.I saw it—I actually was at my apartment that day.I didn't go into work.I'd gone out there, and it was very peaceful.There were people that were praying.There were people that were singing.There were people that were doing things.It wasn't like—there was no planned coup.It wasn't like that.And it was bitter cold.
And then I went back to my apartment.I didn't go into work that day.And I didn't turn on the TV till much later.I was just tired.So it was, for me, kind of delayed reaction.So my personal perception was quite different than what I was seeing.And then as I started piecing things together again, it just became a very unfortunate, ugly, political battle, and again, weaponization, to bring, like, absolute mar against this administration, and more than that, against the millions of people. ...
One period of time we don't have a lot of insight into is after the presidency when he returns to Mar-a-Lago, believing that he had won the election but he's not president anymore.It seems like it must be a difficult time for him, but I don't know, and you might know.What was he like in that period after he leaves Washington?
I've been with him the entire—when I say I've been with him the entire time, I'm not there every day, etc., but we have regular relations just like we have for 20-plus years.So I think people would be extremely surprised how—I don't use the word “optimistic” because—how hopeful and forward-thinking he is.Like, I think people would have him as an image of, like, laying there in a puddle, and he's not, or angry, and he's not.He's playing his playlist; he's having dinner; he's enjoying his family; he's around people that he loves.
Was he fighting for what he believes is right?Absolutely.He does that every day since I've met him.Every day since I've met him, he's going to wake up, always going to know the news, what's going on for that day, have his time in the morning.I call it that quiet time.Then he's going to get to the office early, and he's going to do what he does.
Now, he's played a lot more golf than he did in the presidency, so that's always especially a good day when he's always—he's always good at golf.I don't know when he's not good.
But, you know, this is just, it's an interesting thing.He'll be playing golf, and there's helicopters flying over him trying to get a news story, or this going on, just the way his life is.But does it—is he distracted?I think people think like, he's angry; he's mad; he's calculative; he's conniving.And he's not at all!He's like, "Let's go to dinner.Let's have fun."And when I say—he's not saying, "Let's have fun."It's just—
OK, so, again, this is a pastoral thing, but just coincidentally, I've been with him on three of the indictments, Jon and I have, and it wasn't because we got up there.We were just scheduled to have dinner, or I was going to be there that day, etc.So people always are like, “Well, what was he like?”I think they have this mental picture or image.And he was President Trump.He's Donald Trump.He's the man that he always is.And that is if he's facing the worst crisis of his life or if he's facing the best day, he is going to be a— when I say a forward thinker, he's a visionary.He's strong.He has an internal fortitude.I pray over him.We pray over him.But after we've prayed, after we've talked, after we've had dinner, we're going to sit there and talk for another hour or two.And he's going to play his playlist of his favorite songs, and him [sic] and Jon are going to talk about who is the best opera person and which song did this, and I'm going to say, “Well, ‘Don't Stop Believin’’ should be the first song that you play.”He's going to play a different one than that.
And so people don't think like we're—I don't know what they think, but he's a very normal, wonderful man.
… Was there ever a doubt in your mind or in his mind that he was going to run again?
I think he was looking at everything.I think he was.But I think there's such a—this is my personal opinion, OK?I personally think there's such a pull in him.He loves the people.He loves this country, and our country is in trouble.And I think that for him not to do something, it's just not who he is.So I think he contemplated.I think he thought it through.He's not a rash person.I think he looked at everything.I think he maybe even counted the cost more this time than last time.
And I don't think he could say no because he cares too deeply.
And he knows, like, this election is critical.We've, in my opinion, never had two opponents almost—you know, usually you have them pretty close together.At least back in the day you did.Never have there been two opponents so polar ends, and I think this is going to be where everybody has to do some soul searching and really look and ask themselves some questions, and really get educated, not just about—not just with sound bites.And with all due respect, I pray that we've done a good interview to help, but not just with this interview—to really begin to understand the issues and understand what's at stake for the country at large, for themselves, for foreign policy.I won't even get started on everything for the economy, for our values, for everything, absolutely everything.
There's so much at risk in this election, in my opinion.I pray everybody bows their head just a little bit, says a prayer, gets some quiet time, stills the noise, and really makes a good decision that they can live with and not regret.
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