The FRONTLINE Interviews

Surya Yalamanchili

Contestant, The Apprentice

Surya Yalamanchili was a contestant on the reality-television show The Apprentice in the 2007 season.

The following interview was conducted by FRONTLINE’s Gabrielle Schonder on June 30, 2020. It has been edited for clarity and length.

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Casting 'The Apprentice'

What is The Apprentice?

The Apprentice is a reality-TV show that is essentially Survivor in the boardroom.Donald Trump plays the role of the business executive who is taking America’s best job candidates and selecting one to be his apprentice, to take under his wing, ostensibly, to teach how the Trump Organization works and how to become a real estate mogul just like him.

So help me understand sort of the genius that is Mark Burnett in casting contestants for this show.What are the dynamics that he’s trying to set up?What is he looking to do?Help me understand sort of from a producer perspective.

Mark Burnett casts a wide net for casting.They’ve done everything from casting calls all over the country to sending in just videotapes.And what they’re looking for, I think, are people who have strong personalities, who, if you just take a snippet, if you spend 30 seconds with them, you get an idea what they kind of could be.Whether that’s actually true or not, you form fast impressions.And so one of the big things that they would look for is, when you put two contestants together, do they get in fights?Do they immediately hit it off?What kind of dynamics emerge?So really, they’re looking for strong personalities that are easy to boil down, simplify.

It sounds like it’s also rife for conflict.

Yeah.One of the big things, I think, that certainly they look for are people who, if you press the wrong button, you kind of don’t know what you are going to get.It might be OK.But it might also be someone like throwing things or—they’re always looking for the next Omarosa from season one, who of course would go on to work in the Trump White House.But she, at the slightest provocation, would amp things up, not just one level but five levels.And that’s something certainly that they want, that they look for.

It’s this sense of, OK, these random things might happen.How do we find people who maybe are not going to respond to them going with it or maybe by saying, “Oh, that’s OK,” but by taking it as the world’s worst offense?

Trump and Conflict

What’s that setting like for a personality like Donald Trump, a setting that’s sort of rife with conflict, the setting that’s sort of [pitting] people against one another? ...Does he flourish in a setting like that?

In a setting where people are going to conflict with each other, where there is lots of conflict, it’s perfect for someone like Trump, who loves it.Like, he loves argument.He loves a fighter.He loves a fight, a good fight.He relishes it.So I think when he sees tension between two people, he pokes at it and he pokes at it, and he’s hoping that one of them is going to give him something, some gold—is going to blow up on camera or is going to just absolutely throw the other person under the bus.

Yeah.I wonder if you could tell me how success is measured in reality-show programming and producing.

I think the most successful reality-TV candidates are the ones who are willing to give the producers whatever they want, and most often, what the producers want is conflict.It’s someone making fun of another contestant.It’s someone stoking an argument or escalating the argument.It’s someone willing to say exactly what a producer wants them to.

'The Apprentice' and the Trump Brand

In many ways he’s sort of building the Trump brand back from the ground up.In many ways he’s rebranding.In many ways he’s looking at a reality show in a different way than maybe other figures would.He needs the show to do what for him around this time period?

When The Apprentice started in 2004, Trump was definitely at a really interesting time.I mean, he’s coming off the heels of the bankruptcies, of essentially trying to rebuild the businesses there.He’s finally in a place of stability.And Mark Burnett brings him this golden ticket to introduce himself back to America, because until now, he was famous for the bankruptcies and the divorces and basically a few years of issues.

And so I think Trump very smartly spotted the opportunity to appear decisive and appear to be the person that, no matter what had happened, he was back on top, and he was the one who everyone in America wanted to work for.And he was the success.He was the image of American success.

... I wonder if you can sort of help us understand the Donald that’s on television, or at least the Trump that’s appearing to be on television, right, the “Money, money, money” theme song … the opening credits where he’s in the helicopter overlooking his town, “my town, the city I built.”Can you take me there?

What’s remarkable is just how perfect the timing is.It’s right at the time where Trump has stability, and he’s looking to not just get back to where he was, but go to another level.And so the show, like most reality TV, is over the top.It’s the “Money, money, money” theme song.It’s the helicopter rides, as if he’s the king of the city.It’s thousands of people lining up on the streets of New York to interview to be his apprentice, millions of people all over the country.And it’s as if he’s the captain of the universe again.He’s on top of the business world.

It seems like—I mean, you’re describing the projection of success, right?Everything about this—again, like help me understand.Did it ring true?

Yeah.The Apprentice is a perfect projection.I mean, it’s a projection of a job interview.It’s a projection of success.Trump himself is not what he appears to be on the screen.He’s coming off bankruptcies.He’s coming off restructuring.He’s coming off divorces.He’s trying to rebuild.

But of course the show projects him as the living embodiment of success.The job interview is the same thing.It’s supposed to look like this hard-boiled struggle against some of the most successful people in America, and it’s far from it.They’re high school tasks.They’re like fundraisers that we’re putting on.So the entire show is just this massive projection.

... I wonder if you could help me understand a little bit about what he does with cameos on TV shows, appearances in movies.He does all these WWE fights.He’s also doing regular appearances on Howard Stern.He seems to really have his sights set on Hollywood, in fact, not in many ways New York or New York real estate.What do you think he’s learning?

One of the most remarkable things about The Apprentice that I think is not understood well is that actually it’s one of the biggest financial sources of revenue to Donald Trump and potentially the Trump Organization, depending on how it is structured.But he owns half the show.He gets a ton of money that comes in from the royalties and from the revenue, and this is part and parcel with his strategy.He licenses the Trump name.His money does not come from—primarily does not come from building buildings.It comes from other people building buildings and him agreeing to allowing them to put the Trump name on it in exchange for a slice of the profits.

He goes on WWE and wrestles.He does Pizza Hut commercials.I mean, if you offer Donald Trump a million dollars to do something back then, he would do it because he’s just come off being on a budget.Literally, they listed how much he could spend each week, how much he could give his ex-wives, how much he could give his current wife.And I think that was probably a really humbling experience for him.

And so when Mark Burnett comes to him and says, “Hey, 50-50 partners on this show,” knowing that this is pure profit—he doesn’t have brick and mortar; he doesn’t have construction workers to pay—this is how he’s making almost all of his money during the lean years.

Trump in the 'Apprentice' Boardroom

… I wonder if you could help me understand what the boardroom did for him, what it did for maybe his view of self.

I think the boardroom made Donald Trump president.I mean, I really think that it gave him the gravitas.He directs all the questions.He swiftly judges whether he believes you or he doesn’t.He knows exactly—or at least after the editing he does—exactly where all the bodies are buried, exactly who’s lying and who’s not, what the most important part that you’re not saying is.And so he comes across as this kind of wizard, this person who knows, who can tell fact from fiction and who can call B.S. on anybody.

I wonder if we can play the same game and if you could tell me what the boardroom did for the country, what it did for the audience, what it did for the millions of people that are watching Donald Trump in that room.

I think for the millions of people watching a boardroom at home, you see a Donald Trump; you see the manager, the hire, the CEO, the decider who is able to decipher B.S. from truth, who’s able to see who’s lying and who’s not, who’s able to tell what people are hiding from him.

And I think it elevates him, and it makes it seem like he can solve anything, like there is no problem that Donald Trump couldn’t get to the bottom of; that there is no bad employee that Donald Trump wouldn’t be able to figure out.And all of us have bad co-workers.All of us have that person who seems to get away with everything.And it’s easy to give yourself that fiction that, you know what, if Donald Trump was in charge that wouldn’t happen.And it’s something we want to believe.And of course, that’s maybe not the truth.

Yeah.But this is the guy who is going to be down at the bottom of it.This is the decisive leader.This is a guy who knows how to run a company.

Yeah, I mean, if you’re watching at home, Donald Trump is the decisive leader.He’s the decider.He’s the guy who gets to the bottom of everything.I mean, there is nothing you can hide from him.There is no one who can snow him, who can kiss up to him and he wouldn’t be able to still see through that and ask the right question.Of course, this isn’t what happened.The more you kissed up to him, the more he responded.

But after you distill three hours down to seven carefully edited minutes, sure, Donald Trump knows everything and Donald Trump gets to the bottom of everything.And once you edited an episode a certain way, his judgments are always right.He never makes a mistake.And, you know what?We’d all be better off if Donald Trump was making all the decisions.

Trump and Racial Divide

I wonder if we can pivot now to race. ...

And I’ll start with something super-broad, which is, when did you first recognize how he approaches race?Do you remember a particular moment?

So within a week of being on the show, so that’s probably episode two, episode three, it became pretty clear that there is a pattern.The white women Donald Trump would fawn over.He would ogle them.He would flirt with them.He would spend a lot of time just wanting to get to know them and wanting to tease them and flirt with them.The white men seemed to be his protégés.Those were the ones who he was willing to give second chances to.When they were project manager and they lost, he’d see your potential.It’s OK.There were excuses.There was a jocularity, whereas the minorities on the show were maybe the ones a little bit more—he didn’t really call on us.He didn’t ask us as many questions.And for me, within the first two episodes, I was able to immediately see, like, wait a minute, the first two people who were fired, episode 1, Black guy, not the project manager.That’s strange, but OK.Week 2, who gets fired?Black guy, not the project manager.And I’m like, wait a minute.

This is a little weird, because Trump talks about how, in the show plays up, when you’re the project manager, you are held to another standard.You are ultimately accountable.And yet in both circumstances, he immediately was like: “Yeah, you know what?You deserve another chance, whereas you, other person, person who, you know what, may not look like the people I grew up with, may not look like the people who I work really closely with in the Trump Organization, you look like somebody who doesn’t fit my stereotype, my—you’re not from central casting as the apprentice, as the next vice president in the Trump Organization.”First two people fired, Black men.Very strange.

There at one point is an episode planned.I don’t know if it’s his idea, but at least it’s an idea he is very interested in, which is positioning white contestants against Black contestants.Do you know about this?

So yeah.Originally, I was almost cast for—I made it to the final 25 of Apprentice season three.That season ended up being “Book Smarts versus Street Smarts.”So it was people with college degrees pitted against people who—street smarts, just graduated from high school, maybe.Originally, according to the people I talked to from the show, people in production, Trump was really excited about this idea.

Instead of book smarts/street smarts, he wanted to do Blacks versus whites.He wanted to do whites versus sort of other.I think they were OK, didn’t have to be all Black people; it could be people like me.But you’d have white people, and then you’d have the others.This was an idea he really felt—and I don’t think he was wrong, unfortunately—would captivate America, that this would really get the attention of folks.Now, from what I’ve heard, NBC was like: “Are you crazy?We can’t put that on TV?”But this was really something that sparked to him and that he was excited about, apparently.

Knowing the president, knowing what you witnessed when you were on the show, can you see where this would have made sense for him, given his, maybe his worldview?

Having met the president, having been on the show, having spent hours with him in the boardroom and listening to his off-the-cuff comments and everything else, and now, like everyone else, reading the news constantly—you know, the idea of Blacks versus whites or white versus minorities is textbook Trump.I mean, I think he sees the world in terms of race very heavily.

Now, whether that’s his father—the Trump Organization started with apartments that had a lot of public voucher housing and different things, and there there are lots of accusations around whether or not there was discrimination and like.And I think in the New York that Donald Trump grew up in, race was a big factor.I think whether you talk about his Central Park Five race baiting or different things, race is never far from Donald Trump’s mind.

And the fact that he would then, just like reality TV is a distillation, the concentration, the exaggeration of small differences, that he would take what we already have in America and may not be needing to be exaggerated, race and the competition of that—and people seeing things in stark racial terms and saying, “Let’s make an entire season about it; let’s make it an overt competition,” is absolutely something that I can see Donald Trump just thinking is a great idea.

And frankly, I think it would be destructive for the country.But I think it would be such a train wreck that everyone would want to watch it.

I think Randal Pinkett wins two seasons before yours.Is that right?Is he season four?

Correct.Correct.

OK.Do you know how Trump viewed him?And can you sort of help us understand who Randal is?

Randal Pinkett wins season four of The Apprentice.You know, he’s the first African American winner of The Apprentice.He’s the first Black winner.That was a big deal.And Randal grew up in New Jersey where I grew up.He went to the state university of New Jersey, Rutgers, like I did.And I always looked up to Randal.I mean, electrical engineer at Rutgers, ran track, Rhodes scholar, MIT double degrees, started his own company.

Goes on The Apprentice, doesn’t make a mistake.Gets to the final episode, Trump says: “You know what, Randal, you’ve done a phenomenal job.Of course you’re the apprentice.But there’s this nice, white lady here.And you know what?It would be really great—how about I hire her, too?”And putting Randal in the position of being like: “Wait.You just told me I won, and now you’re like, there’s going to be a tie?”And so he’s like, “No, Mr. Trump, there’s not.”I think he made a joke, of course, because Randal is Randal.He’s like a Latin joke about “apprenti” or something like that.

But how unfair of a position that you make Randal be the bad guy and say, “No, I don’t want to have to share the title”?And of course, to me, I was not surprised to see that.I mean, it was disturbing, but it wasn’t surprising, because you know what?Donald Trump is seeing someone who wins but looks like Randal.Does he really deserve it?Should maybe he share that?Does this other person, maybe she deserves it, too?It is very, very strange.But that’s kind of how his thinking about race is.

Yeah, does he do this with anyone else?Does he make anyone else share a tittle during the history of the show, do you know?

When Trump asked Randal to, after naming him the apprentice, to share it, it’s the first time.And afterwards, he’s not done it since.And he asks someone this really odd question after saying: “This is the ultimate job interview.That there can only be one winner, only one winner.Oh, by the way, Randal, how about we—how about two winners?”

Only time he’s ever done it.He’s not done it since.And how strange that it’s the one time that there is a Black winner.It’s almost like he hated that he had to crown him the apprentice.

He’s a guy that has seen winners and losers throughout his life.It’s an idea that his father sort of instills in him is that there are winners, there are losers.I wonder if exactly what you said, if winners don’t look like Randal.They wouldn’t have looked like Randal to Trump Sr.Maybe they don’t look like Randal to the Donald.

Given how much Trump talks about winners and losers and who looks like a winner and who looks like a loser, it’s really strange that the one time he asks a winner to share the title, it’s someone who looks like a tall, Black man and maybe not Trump’s vision of what a winner from central casting should look like.

There’s a particular bit of archival footage—I may have mentioned it to you when we talked before—where Trump does an interview with Bryant Gumbel in 1989, and says this weird thing, which is, “If I were to come back as anything, I’d like to come back as a Black professional, because Black professionals have all the opportunities in the U.S.”And it’s this really bizarre, standalone comment. ...

But it’s kind of this moment where you get a—anyway, you’re just pulling back, again, the curtain into Donald Trump’s views of minorities.

Yeah.When Trump decided that for the first time he didn’t want just one winner, even though The Apprentice is the ultimate job interview where there could only be one winner, part of me wondered if that’s because of the fact that he has a sense of aggrievement towards Black people and minorities, that he feels like they have extra advantages in getting ahead, that somehow they are given extra benefits.

I think there was an interview back in the ’90s where he, I think with Bryant Gumbel, where he talks about how if he could come back as anyone, he would come back as a Black man because he would have more opportunities.I think it just speaks to this warped sense of the world where instead of actually having to be twice as good to get the opportunities as someone who might be white or who might look like the person who is interviewing them, he views them as being half as good and still getting ahead.

And maybe that’s why, despite Randal not making a single mistake, not ever having given Trump a reason to fire him and having been twice as good, he still gets asked to share the title.And it, I think, speaks to the fact that Donald Trump views the world through this sense of everyone but him has been given things; that he is the one who has had to fight, who has been denied, who everyone is against, who he gives people chances, who he hires into his organization or on the show and then they are ungrateful, that they will come back to begrudge him for it.And all his life he’s nursed the sense of aggrievement.

The 2016 Presidential Campaign

I mean, when you are now watching sort of the 2015-16 campaign and you’re seeing Donald Trump enter that race, what do you think he’s learned about the country?What do you think he has now figured out about marketing and rebranding and messaging?Tell me your thoughts when he enters the field.

In 2016, watching Trump run for president, was — I mean, it felt like being back on The Apprentice.You watch.And he had learned so much.He kept everything really simple.He was always good at that, but on The Apprentice it’s five-, 10-second sound bites.That’s what the audience has an attention span for.And he does that.It’s entertainment.

He, on that debate stage, with the 47 other Republican candidates who were running for president, he set them against each other and he gave them nicknames.I mean, it was just pure reality TV.This looked nothing like a presidential run.This looked 100% like a reality-TV show, not even like The Apprentice or Survivor.It looked more like one of those cable ones like Flavor of Love or something like that, with these nicknames.

And Trump just—only entertainment.That’s all he went for.The “build the wall,” “lock her up,” the chants.And so I think he took all the knowledge from The Apprentice: Keep it really simple.Let’s do entertainment.Let’s entertain people, and they’ll watch.Let’s entertain people, and the newspaper has to write about it.Let’s entertain people at this rally, and CNN has to air it.

And what happened is, he sucked the oxygen out of the entire race.And then after he won the Republican nomination, he did the exact same thing with Hillary.I mean, every time he did something that was crazy, and we thought he had gone too far, he topped himself, which is exactly what—as, like, “Next week, on The Apprentice,” it’s something more shocking and seems like you have to tune in.And every news cycle was that, “Next week,” on the news cycle, “you won’t believe what Donald Trump does next.”

The 'Access Hollywood' Tape

Let me ask you about a particular moment on the campaign, which is the Access Hollywood weekend.So this is—and we’re trying to evaluate in both candidates’ backgrounds crisis and how they handle crisis.Donald Trump handles crisis in this case by doubling down, by bringing the Clinton accusers on stage.What do you see happening here?

Yeah.And after the Access Hollywood tape, I think you saw for the first time the people in the Republican establishment who were afraid to leave him had left him.Like Paul Ryan cancelled events.Mike Pence, for the first time, was not running out there to defend him.But what does Donald Trump do?I mean, it’s the person we saw on The Apprentice.What he loved was when we fought.And he’s a fighter.

And you know what?You say what you want about him, but you know what?He loves to fight, and he will fight till he’s dead.He doesn’t let slights go, and he fights.And so what he did was, he went on the offensive.Donald Trump immediately brings in—nothing with Hillary—Bill Clinton’s, the people who had accused him of affairs or that Clinton had admitted to, puts them in the front of the debate, or tries to.He makes it about the Clintons.He goes on the attack.

So at a moment when language that had never been seen before in American politics is splashed everywhere, everyone is giving up on him, everyone is telling him to apologize, what does Donald Trump do?He attacks in a way that no one else would think is possible.He tries to rub in Hillary Clinton’s face the women that Bill Clinton had affairs with.

And you know what?It works.People start talking about that.They talk about the audacity of it.They realize that, you know what?He is always going to give us something new, and maybe we should let this thing play out.And of course, we know how it played out.

The Reality Show Presidency

Yeah.Going back to an idea you just had mentioned, I think early in the administration ... he tells his communications team, “Think of every day like a 30-minute show.”What do you think he’s learned about storytelling from The Apprentice?

I think traditionally White Houses come up with “weeks,” right?There’s Infrastructure Week, that turned out to be a joke, right?And I think in the White House instead of weeks, there end of being 30-minute segments.And he tries to structure these as TV shows, as entertainment.And this is why he puts so much attention on Fox News and cable news.What’s on CNN?How is it playing?I think he views every day as another chance to win.And very much, this is why he spent so much focus on who his press secretary was.

He cares very much about how they look, how they are communicating.They never give an inch because he very much feels like if they do, then he has.And then if you have, you’ve lost.It doesn’t matter whether it’s the truth, and it doesn’t matter whether they’re facts or not facts.What matters is you’re pressing, you’re advancing or you’re retreating, and that’s it.

And you’re fighting.

Yeah.I think Trump understands the value of fighting, that among his base, they appreciate that someone is speaking for them, that these are people who feel aggrieved; these are people who feel they have no voice.And also, the people like conflict.The people like to watch people fighting.He learned that on The Apprentice.That was what made for good TV.He learned that all throughout TV.And of course, when it comes time for the White House and it comes time for Congress, he’s always picking fights, and he always has an enemy.

And of course, that always worked for him during the campaign, right?First, he went Little Marco, you know, Lying Ted.Everyone got a nickname.He picked on everyone until they kind of blew up.And then he went on to the next one.Just fight, fight, fight.

And to seek out also weakness in people and institutions and adversaries, do you see any of that?

I think Trump’s a bully.And I think that’s obvious from—for those of us who are on The Apprentice and we saw that.When he would see weakness, he would go right in.And I think he certainly is a bully in real life.I think if he sees an advantage, he takes it.And I think if he can—I can’t get the image of him lingering over Hillary Clinton’s shoulder during the debates and menacingly standing over her and kind of just, like, gazing at her.That’s going to freak anyone out, whether you’re a woman or a man.That’s really weird. ...

The Lafayette Square Photo Op

Let me ask you about sort of a reality-TV moment that we’ve all witnessed recently, which is the Lafayette Square photo op, where he walks across.I mean, to political observers and novices, it looks like a reality-TV show being applied to the presidency.But I wonder how you viewed it.

Yeah.I think recently watching the Lafayette Square, clearing Lafayette of the Black Lives Matter protesters was a classic example of Trump’s reverence for symbolism, to go there, stand in front with a Bible, says everything, everything, that he wants people to think about his reelection campaign.One, I will use force.Two, I will protect you.Three, no one will be given any quarter.And four, the Bible, Christ.He’s not a religious man.And so he needs to show, to cloak himself in every vestige of symbolism about it.

And so, you know what?More than any other president, probably ever, Trump gets symbolism.That’s what reality TV is.

The COVID-19 Daily Briefings

The purview of the outer borough kid who is always trying to get in—whatever it is that you’ve sort of seen, when you watch him on these daily COVID pressers, what do you see? What is he bringing to the presidency?

When I watch the presidency of Donald Trump, when I watch the COVID pressers, when I see his tweets, I see the guy that I watched up close on The Apprentice.It’s the kid from Queens who was underestimated, who will fight, who doesn’t really care what anyone thinks.What matters is what he thinks.He has all the answers.That through his sheer force of will no bankruptcy, no divorce, no producer, no candidate who comes from a political dynasty, no one will tell Donald Trump what’s right, what’s wrong, what he can do, what he can’t do.

He will impose his will upon everyone, whether everyone is telling him he’s wrong, whether someone tells him these things called facts that are going to get in the way and he shouldn’t say it, he doesn’t care.Donald Trump believes what Donald Trump believes.And he really, truly believes that given the chance, he can convince anyone of anything and that they will listen to him.

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