The FRONTLINE Interviews
Tarini Parti
The Wall Street Journal
Tarini Parti is a White House reporter at The Wall Street Journal. She previously reported on politics for BuzzFeed News and Politico.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on August 8, 2024. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Shyamala Harris, Kamala’s Mother
Can you help me understand her family, and where she comes from?
Yeah.A lot of who Kamala Harris is, how she thinks, is all from her family, especially her mom, Shyamala Gopalan Harris.She moved from India to Berkeley, California when she was 19.This is a very unusual story.There weren't as many Indian immigrants at the time.So she was part of that first wave.And I have spoken with her family, her brother, and they describe her as this sort of inquisitive person, who was politically active, although they weren't quite as sure, at the time, of the extent of her activism.But she came to Berkeley.And she became very involved in sit-ins, and protests.
She also met Harris' father at the time.And he was also an immigrant, from Jamaica.So it was sort of an unusual story.But both immigrants meeting in Berkeley, both cared about civil rights, and political activism.And they started the story there, and then went on to have two children, and get married.
And that relationship, even though it didn't work out, her parents separately had such a big influence on her.The vice president talks about her mom all the time, whether it's in meetings, or on the campaign trail.She talks about how her mom frequently told her, “You know, you might be the first to do many things.But make sure you're not the last.Pave the way for others behind you.” This is something that the vice president talks about a lot.
She also helped Harris think about her identity, which has become a big part of her political life.There are a lot of questions about, you know, is she Black?Is she Indian?And people aren't used to seeing a biracial person in positions of power.And Harris' mother was very clear with her daughters, as Harris has put it, she told her, “You know, you're going to be seen as Black women.” So, you know, she made it clear, from the get-go, that they were going to be seen as Black women, and they should be ready for that.And we've seen how that's unfolded, of course, in Harris' political career, and especially now in her second presidential campaign.
Let me take you back for a second to talk about her mom, because Kamala Harris will be somebody who breaks a lot of barriers in the jobs that she has.But help me to understand how unusual it would have been for her as a teenager, to leave, to come to Berkeley, and a little bit about her family and where she comes from.
Yeah.It was a big decision.And I think not one that people think about.Because now, Indian-Americans are everywhere.But at the time, this was not a common move.But she wanted to come to Berkeley to study.Her parents were sort of politically active, but not as much as her mother ended up being.So Harris often talks about how she comes from a family of fighters.And that includes her grandfather, P.V.Gopalan, who she has said was part of the fight [for] India's independence from Britain.She said that he didn't really publicize his role as much, because he was also a civil servant working for the government.So she talks about her mom, her dad, also her grandfather, how she comes from this family of fighters.And that's sort of her political motivation, even today.
That's interesting, because it doesn't just start in Berkeley, as you understand it.It goes back.
It goes back all the way to India.
Yeah, that's amazing.I mean, was it a progressive family?I mean she marries somebody from Jamaica.They end up getting divorced relatively quickly.I mean, how would that have been seen?
It was definitely unusual for an Indian woman to marry a Jamaican man.You know, her family grew to accept that.It would have been progressive for the time that they accepted this marriage.But it was definitely not something that they would have accepted immediately.
She goes back and visits the family.And how do you think that shapes her?What does she take from the Indian side of her heritage?
Yeah.Harris' mother is South Indian.Even when they were in California, Harris' Indian heritage had a big influence on her.Her mother made sure that they knew about Indian food.They grew up eating dosas, and idli, and sambar.They talked about South Indian culture.She still felt very connected to her family.In her first speech at the DNC in 2020, she used the word “chachi,”which refers to aunt.And that was seen as a big moment.But it goes back to years of her growing up, visiting India, and learning about the culture, the heritage, the religion.
It's so interesting, too, that her mom is pretty perceptive about race in America.And, as you say, recognizes that she's going to be seen as a Black girl.How important was that decision by her mom in recognition of that?
I think it was extremely progressive at the time.I mean, you know, and clearly, in politics in America, today, we still struggle to understand, you know, or we're not used to seeing biracial women or men in positions of power.And for Harris' mother to acknowledge that she would be seen as a Black woman was extremely progressive.But it was also where they were growing up.It was Berkeley, California, you know, they were seeing this movement of, you know, whether it was culture or politics you were seeing, or the Civil Rights Movement, her mother had firsthand seen this growing activism in the Black community.And she knew about the history and the culture in a way that she felt she could share with her daughters, even though she, of course, was Indian.
Do you have any sense of the difficulties of it?Kamala Harris herself doesn't talk about it much.She mentions a friend who's not allowed to play with her.And she talks about slights.Do you have a sense of the challenges?
Yeah.I think for her, it's hard not to think about her identity, because people always reminded her of it.That started when she was obviously growing up in California.But it has continued to this day.You know, she thinks of herself as a Black woman in American politics, and looks at decisions through that prism, which a lot of political leaders have not done, because they have been white men.So this is something that's followed her from her childhood to now.
Do you have a sense of the impact of her dad?I mean, is he mostly impactful by not being around?How does he impact her?
He played a role when they were growing up.You know, she does know her Jamaican family.She talks about spending weekends and summers with her father.So he did play a role in putting that same sense of political activism, and civil rights, and those types of things that she talked about with her mom, she also got that from her father, to a certain extent.But he just was not involved in sort of her political life.The only comment he made during her first presidential campaign, in 2019, is when she made a comment, a joking comment about her Jamaican heritage when she was asked a question about marijuana.And her father wrote this sort of critical column of the comment she made.And that's sort of been the last that we've heard from him regarding her political life.
It's sort of striking that that's the one thing.I mean, and does she not talk about him?
She definitely does not talk about him as much as she talks about her mother.She's, you know, talked about him in her book, and the influence that he had.But, you know, he was the first tenured Black economist at Stanford.So he's accomplished in his own right.And she's acknowledged that.But their relationship, she said in interviews in the past, that they're on good terms.But she doesn't delve deeper into that relationship.
What was her mom up against, as being the one woman in the room as a professor?Because in some ways, you could see a model for Kamala Harris.
Right.So Kamala Harris' mom was a breast cancer researcher And she tried to make sure that she was bringing women, especially women of color up along with her, as she grew up in the ranks.And she made sure to impart that lesson on her daughters.This is why she always told them, “Make sure you're the first but not the last,” something we've heard Harris say over and over again.And it was tough for her.And she imparted that lesson, too.She told her daughters to kind of look at the system and institutions, and not be afraid to challenge them.And I think we've seen that throughout Harris' career as well, that she knew what it was like for a woman of color to be in a position of power, from her mother, and to sort of understand how to work within the system, but also to try to change the system.
Kamala Harris’ Friend, Wanda Kagan
Yeah, help me understand the Wanda Kagan moment, and why it's so influential for Kamala Harris.
So Kamala Harris brings that moment, her friendship, up with Wanda Kagan frequently, when she's talking about why she became a prosecutor, why she chose this career path.And she tells the story of how Wanda told her about how she was being molested by her stepfather.And once Harris heard that, she invited her to stay at their house instead.But she also started thinking about the story in terms of what she wanted to do with her life.And Wanda, in my interview with her, told me that, you know, even back then, Harris was thinking about how she could fight for people's rights, how she could fight for justice.And so her career today goes back to sort of this moment that she had with her very close friend in Canada.
Harris Becomes a Prosecutor
It's interesting, this decision to become a prosecutor, because she talks about it.And she talks about her mom being resistant to it.And it seems like such an important moment for her as a politician.Help me understand that decision, and why she would have to convince her mom.
Yeah.So in talking to Harris' family members, what I've learned over time, is that debates and arguments were a big part of their dinner table conversations, of just their household in general.So it made sense that both Kamala Harris and Maya became lawyers.But the decision to then become a prosecutor was a bit more controversial.She's described in her book that her mother and family friends kept asking what she would do in the fight for justice, what role she would play, and how her law degree would help in that.
And so when she mentioned she wanted to be a prosecutor, they were taken aback.This is not something that they expected, given her upbringing, given that she was raised in an environment where the Civil Rights Movement was constantly talked about, where law enforcement was sort of viewed more skeptically.So, she decided she wanted to be a prosecutor to sort of make changes within the system, is how she's phrased it over time, and to her family.But this was something that needed convincing.
Yeah.It's so interesting, because it's like she has to convince her mom.She has to convince people all along the way, in 2019, and even, to some extent, today, about why it is she chose to become a prosecutor.
Yeah.This is something that she has, at times, been extremely proud of.And at times she has clearly seen it as a liability, and tried to not talk about it as much.We saw that in her first presidential campaign, with Democratic voters being somewhat resistant to hearing in 2019, about her time in California as attorney general and as prosecutor.When the base of the party was looking for perhaps a more progressive version of a law enforcement candidate.And she was not quite able to explain her record in a way that people were satisfied with.So they, at times, saw that as a liability.
But now, in her second presidential campaign, we're already seeing her talk about her background as a prosecutor and an attorney general.She's using that to draw contrast with Donald Trump.And we're not seeing her hide it in the way that we sometimes did in her last presidential campaign.
From when she first decides to be an assistant district attorney, to being the district attorney, to being the attorney general, she's walking into a space that has been dominated by white men for a long time.How does she approach a situation like that?And what is she walking into, when she decides to go into law enforcement, into being a prosecutor?
This is something that Harris has experienced from the start of her career to now, that she's walking into spaces that have previously been occupied by white men.And the way she has gone about it is to kind of think about how she can use her perspective, how she can use her upbringing, and kind of the unique perspective that she brings to the table, to change policy or to influence decisions.
And she tried to do that by merely the decision of wanting to be a prosecutor, which some in her family seemed to disagree with at first.But she has talked about this in a way where she thinks, you know, you have to change the system from the inside, if you want change at all.So that's kind of how she's approached using her perspective and bringing that into a world that's been dominated by people who don't look like her.
What's her approach when she's in a situation where people say, you know, either explicitly or implicitly, “You don't belong here.I'm going to talk to your assistant rather than to you.” How does she approach those kinds of gender, racial slights that she must have experienced along the way?
I think Harris has been very clear, and making sure people know that she belongs.She has not tried to back down when people have tried to imply that she doesn't belong.And she tells that even today.I've talked to women who have talked to her for political advice, or just career advice in general, and she's always said, you know, “Don't let them tell you that you can't do something.You can do it.” And she'll say something like, “I eat no for breakfast.” Or, you know, she's had that sort of mentality from a very young age.And she's sort of kept that on throughout her career.
Harris the Pragmatist
As she becomes a politician, but really a head prosecutor in the district attorney's office, in the attorney general's office in California, what is her political identity?Because there will be a lot of questions about it later.Is she liberal?Is she hard on crime?Soft on crime?How does she see herself?And who is she, as a prosecutor and a politician in those years?
So I've spoken over the years with many people who have worked with her.And the one thing that I've taken away from it, is Kamala Harris does not like to be put into a box, in terms of political ideology.She is sort of a pragmatist.She is realistic about what the situation is, and sort of takes issues on a case-by-case basis.This has, in some ways, been a problem for her politically.We saw that in her first presidential campaign, where she was criticized frequently for not being clear about her political ideology, for sometimes walking back her previous positions.
But, from what I've been told, she tries to assess each situation, and even going back to her time as a prosecutor and an attorney general, some said she was too progressive.Some said she was too tough.And you know, ahead of her first presidential campaign, she tried to say she was a progressive prosecutor.But she wasn't quite able to sell people on that, in part because not all of her record was progressive.
So she sort of fits somewhere in the middle.And she's tried to straddle that throughout her career, including her first presidential campaign, when there were clearly two lanes between moderates and progressives, and she was not clearly fitting in either of them.
It's interesting.I mean she writes that book Smart on Crime.And I think the tagline is sort of, “Is not tough on crime or soft on crime, it's smart on crime.” So that's from the beginning, that she's trying to not be in a box?
That's kind of the sense that I've gotten from talking to people who have worked with her.People have told me that, you know, the question she always asks is, “How is this going to hit the streets?How are people going to view this?How is it going to impact people, and especially women and children?” She always asks from sort of that prism.And minorities, you know, Black and brown communities.
And so she sort of uses her upbringing, her perspective, and looks at issues from a case-by-case basis.And sometimes her decision is on the more liberal side of the spectrum, and sometimes it's not.On things like climate, she has an extremely liberal record.But on other issues, you know, sort of more economy-focused, she has a record that's sort of similar to Joe Biden.
One of the things she gets tagged with, as she's the California attorney general, is a reluctance to weigh in on things, from whether it's legalization of marijuana, or police investigations of police shootings.As you look back on that, is that a characteristic of Kamala Harris in that time?
It is.She doesn't like to take a position on things.And I think that has opened her up to a lot of criticism.Even now, when she responds to things, she sort of leaves the door open, and people have criticized her for it.She'll often say, “You know, I think some things should be reconsidered.Or we should think about reconsidering it.” She's phrasing it in sort of a mushy way.And you know, people who have worked with her have said that she doesn't like to just say yes or no on these sort of big decisions.She doesn't like to talk about lofty, sort of political ideology.If a decision needs to be made, she'll deliberate it.She approaches it like a lawyer.She'll cross-examine her staff.She'll look at the data.And then she'll come up with a decision.But coming up with sort of just policy ideas, she sees as sort of more of an academic exercise, that she ends up leaving room for too much debate on.
One thing that they point to, that the campaign points to as being really critical, was her role in the mortgage settlement, and sort of stepping up, not just to the banks, but to the Obama administration.How important was that in her story?
This was a big moment for her, and something that she is now highlighting in her second presidential campaign.She, as attorney general in 2012, was part of a big mortgage settlement with big banks during the foreclosure crisis.She was able to get a big settlement for California, but only after she sort of walked out of the negotiations.This angered some in the Obama administration, because they were ready to get to a deal.And she thought that Californians deserved more.So she was pushing for more, and not really making too many friends in the Obama administration because of this, even though the former president and Harris had had previously a good relationship.She was often compared to him.But in this moment, they had a big disagreement.And in the end, Harris was able to secure a bigger settlement for California.And this is something she talks about, you know, even in her recent rallies, she's been talking about how she took on big banks, took on Wall Street, and won, and sort of contrasting that with Trump.
Harris in the United States Senate
But she makes that decision to run for the United States Senate in 2016, which is the year of Donald Trump, and of Hillary Clinton.And when you look back at that moment when she's elected, it seems like a turning point in history and a turning point for her.
I mean, she talks about, people have told us about sort of ripping up her speech, because I think the expectation, not just of her, but of everyone, was that Hillary Clinton was going to win.
Yeah, 2016 was a shocking moment for everyone, for Democrats in particular, and for Harris, as someone who should be celebrating that night, she also had to face this reality of Donald Trump winning, and being part of the Senate under a Donald Trump presidency.So she sort of talked about it as a bittersweet moment for her, because even though her personal career was advancing, this was a huge setback for Democrats, who were pretty confident that Hillary Clinton was going to win.
Help me to understand her meteoric rise, but the fact that she comes in as a prosecutor in the Donald Trump era, and who she is as a United States senator.
So even though she was now in the Senate, it was her prosecutor background, it was her legal background that helped her really rise in terms of this star within the Democratic party.She started getting noticed, not necessarily for the legislation that she was putting forward, but for how she was questioning Trump administration officials.She was a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and grilled people when they came before her.Those moments would go viral on social media.They started getting noticed by donors, by activists.
She also questioned now-Justice Brett Kavanaugh.That back-and-forth also got noticed, and sort of put her on the map for a lot of people who didn't know much about her before then.
Harris’ 2019 Presidential Run
Do you know why she decides to run for president after only being in the Senate for such a brief period of time?Is it coming from her?Is it coming from the excitement around her?What makes her announce?
I think there was a lot of buzz around her, just within her early start in the Senate, given the type of questioning that she was doing with Trump administration officials.And you know, she was getting pushed by some activists, by the donor community.And it was a primary where everyone was throwing their hats in the ring.And, as someone, even though she wasn't in the Senate for a long time, she decided to be one of those 20 people, or however many people ended up running.
And the amazing thing, looking back at it, it started off with a bang, and a rally in Oakland, and high expectations.
It definitely started out with a bang.She had this huge rally in Oakland, with I think 20,000 people who attended.There was a lot of excitement around her candidacy.But she was one of many, not just Democrats, but one of many Democratic senators vying for the nomination.And it was an extremely crowded primary, where she had to sort of distinguish herself from others.And, you know, after that big announcement, there were also high expectations.And it just felt like she was not meeting those expectations.And even when she had big moments, they eventually fizzled out.And it got to the point where she didn't even make it to the Iowa caucuses before dropping out.
I mean you said before, when we were talking about her early career, that part of the problem was identifying herself, because she's more of a pragmatist than an ideologue.I mean, was that the problem in 2019?
That was definitely one of the problems with her campaign.This was a campaign that became very focused on policy.If you remember, Elizabeth Warren was putting out new policy proposals, it seemed like, on a daily basis.And it was forcing these candidates, in a very crowded Democratic primary, to take positions on basically everything.It was, from the debate stage to just kind of the policy papers that they were putting out, it was extremely policy-focused.And there was this battle that was happening between the progressive wing of the party and the moderate wing of the party.…
So on several issues, she tried to straddle both sides and find somewhat of a middle lane.And there just weren't enough supporters who were in that very specific middle lane for her to attract.And you saw her try to shift from the policy campaign to then start highlighting her prosecutor background, which she had previously seen as a liability, when the Trump impeachment happened.That was sort of the last gasp of the campaign, where she tried to then lean in on her background.But it was too late.The field was too big, and had already been narrowing.And she just was not part of the top candidates at the time.
Vice President Harris
She gets asked to be on the vice presidential ticket.Why?What was it about Kamala Harris that got her that slot?
So Biden had said that he wanted a woman to be his running mate.And he had a shortlist of senators like Kamala Harris, like Elizabeth Warren, on that list.He was also looking at Susan Rice, the former UN Ambassador.So he was looking at these women, also Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan, and he didn't really have too many personal connections with the people on his shortlist, other than Susan Rice, who he had worked with during the Obama administration.
And he wanted someone, he said, who he could see as a full partner in terms of governing.But also, someone who he could trust.So, you know, he ultimately settled on Kamala Harris.It also happened to be 2020, with the murder of George Floyd, and all the discussions about race, and how that factors into institutions.So the fact that she would be then the first Black woman to be on a vice presidential nomination, I think, was a factor given the moment that we were in, in 2020.But yeah, she seemed to fit the criteria that he had set out for himself.
It must be a difficult job for her to walk into, especially having been a prosecutor, and being able to make the final decisions.I mean, how difficult of an adjustment is it for somebody like Kamala Harris to walk into the vice presidency, which is a largely ceremonial role?
The biggest thing that Harris had to contend with, when she came into that role, was in part, the historic nature of her vice presidency, and the expectations that people had from her.People were expecting her to have this big public role.They were expecting to see more of her.But we were still living in a pandemic.Only a few staffers were working at the White House.Travel was limited.She wasn't going out there as much and seeing voters, kind of talking publicly about what she was doing.So this narrative of, “Where is Kamala?” started gaining momentum.And even her allies were a little unsure of how she was being used by the White House.
She had some moments where she, herself, made some mistakes, including on her first foreign trip.She was handed an assignment that Biden had when he worked under Obama.He was given this task of handling diplomatic efforts related to immigration.And the way Harris interpreted that, she called it root causes of migration.Her team was very clear and specifying that she wasn't going to be involved in managing the border, that this was sort of a long-term goal, and something that past administrations have worked on as well.But, of course, Republicans ended up calling her the border czar, something that they're still attacking her on.And she ended up doing her first foreign trip to Mexico and Guatemala.And there were some missteps that she made, that have since haunted her vice presidency, and come up to this day.
She had an NBC interview with Lester Holt in which she was asked if she had been to the border.And she was sort of dismissive of the question, and laughed at it, and said she hadn't been to Europe, either.And this back-and-forth has really set the tone, in some ways, of how people viewed her early on.…
So she had a lot to overcome, after that first year.And we saw things start to change, once she became more comfortable in her role.And also, the scrutiny that she faced as the first Black woman in that job, and the attacks from Republicans, given she was vice president to the oldest president, was also a factor in sort of this chaotic first year that she had.
Let me just ask you a couple things about it.I mean first of all, she's coming in, and the president is a long-time senator, has connections in the Senate.… She's sort of new to Washington.I mean, how was that a challenge for her to figure out her place?
Yeah.She had to figure out where she belonged, and how she could be most useful.So, you know, being vice president to Joe Biden, who's sort of seen as the master of the Senate, and had these long-term relationships, it was hard for her to find a place, in terms of negotiating the big legislative deals that they did early on in the administration, the infrastructure bill, and the recovery act, things like that.
So based on my reporting, she tried to be more influential behind the scenes in terms of what actually went in the legislation.So she cared a lot about what the administration called the CARE economy, you know, affordable childcare, paid family leave, things that didn't actually end up passing.But then also, things like replacing water pipes, you know, lead, it was one of the issues that she felt strongly about, child tax credit.So she tried to influence things behind the scenes when she could.
But it was hard to sort of find a place, in part because she was also trying to prove that she was loyal to the president.She didn't want to overshadow the president as a much younger vice president, who clearly had political ambitions.She had run for president herself before.This was something that, especially after the debate moment that they had in the primary, there were people still in Biden's orbit who were skeptical of her, who didn't quite trust her yet.And the president himself didn't have a relationship with her.So the first year was a lot of relationship building, trying to understand what the job was.
It's interesting that you say that there were people in Biden's orbit who were skeptical of her, because we've talked about, from the very beginning, she faced this question of, you know, do you belong in this room?Why are you here?And she's facing that, even as the vice president of the United States of America.
She was.And the way she handled that was to, you know, every step of the way, show that she was loyal to him, that she was committed to being vice president, to not overshadowing the president.And I think after a while, once the relationship was built with the president, once his aides got used to her, I think that became less of a problem.But it took time to sort of get there.…
Help me understand what she faces as the first woman of color in the vice presidency, and the way she's portrayed on Fox News, and sort of the description of her.
I think when she first took office, from what I've heard, people were taken aback inside the White House by the level of scrutiny, by the level of attacks that she was facing, as the first woman, the first Black woman, first woman of South Asian descent, to hold that position, she was trying to navigate it, navigate that role with these high expectations.But then, she was also the vice president to the oldest president.And Republicans saw that as a clear threat, and wanted to define her early on.
You know, they knew she had political ambitions, and you know, could potentially run for president herself And they tried, early on, to start defining her, to start attacking her, in a way that was unusual for a vice president to face.She also, because of these historic expectations, had a lot of reporters covering her.I covered her from the start of her vice presidency as well, but I had not covered a previous vice president.And what I was told constantly, is, you know, vice presidents don't usually have as many reporters who follow them on international trips, or domestic trips.And here she was with a pretty robust crew of reporters, who covered her, and followed her every move.
And then some of the depictions, her laugh, for example, becoming something that's a discussion.
Yeah.There was an effort to define her by her critics.And the laugh sort of became a part of that, in terms of building out this sort of caricature of her, of someone who potentially was not serious, was, you know, not doing her job, which also melded in with some Democratic concerns that she wasn't being used enough by the administration.So the, “Where is Kamala?” narrative that Democrats were asking about, melded in with some of the caricature and attacks from Republicans, and created this sort of firestorm of scrutiny and criticism early on in her administration, when she was still trying to figure out what the role was, how best to work with Biden, and also it was still the pandemic, and she couldn't really travel as much.
How did they deal with that?Because it seems like it goes on for months and months.I mean, what's her response as a politician to that kind of portrayal and that depiction?
I think at first it caught them off-guard, when they saw the level of attacks.And then, they tried to sort of give her areas where she felt confident, in terms of the issues that she was talking about, and tried to build out her role from then.I mean, on the travel, she was limited until the pandemic restrictions lifted.She was also limited, in part, because the Senate was tied, and she had to be around to cast a tie-breaking vote if needed.And so all of those factors her office tried to explain.But the public still was not seeing her, and kept having the same phrase of, “Where is Kamala?We want to see her out there more.”
But once the restrictions lifted, when she wasn't needed in the Senate as much, she was able to get out there, and tout what the administration was doing more.…
But the trajectory from the first year to now started changing when the Dobbs decision came down from the Supreme Court.This was reproductive rights, abortion rights, it’s something that she is well versed in.This is an issue she has worked on a lot.And it gave her a purpose and a lane where she could show herself as a leader.And once she started getting out more on that topic, in particular, it was clear she was becoming more comfortable in her job.
You mentioned the Dobbs decision, and we talked about how Biden was an expert at the Senate, an expert on foreign relations.Help me understand how she finds a place in the administration in the wake of that.
So, from the moment that the draft decision leaked, she started convening meetings with state legislators, or attorney generals, trying to figure out what the federal government could do, what role they could play here.And then, once the decision came out, she became their loudest messenger on it.She was traveling everywhere, talking about abortion rights.And this was an issue that Biden was not comfortable on.He rarely used the word “abortion.” And she was comfortable on it.She ended up being, we think, the first vice president to visit an abortion clinic.
So, you know, I interviewed her in February.And she talked about how this is an issue that everyone should feel comfortable talking about.She, on the campaign trail, goes into sort of, sometimes, gory details that people don't want to necessarily hear about, in an election year, when they're coming to hear the vice president speak.But he said that, you know, this is something that her mother told her, that they have to be able to talk about tough things, in order to push for certain policy changes.
So she found a lane for herself in a way that, on an issue that she was comfortable on, and was able to travel, and sort of counter the, “Where is Kamala?” narrative that had been plaguing her early years in the vice presidency.
Did you see a development in her skills as a politician over those years?
She definitely seems more comfortable when she's talking about something that she knows.It goes back to people asking her random policy questions, and her giving mushy answers.That is not where you see her political skills shine.It is when there's something she's passionate about, an issue she is comfortable on, that she really cares about, where she draws from her background, her upbringing, growing up, but also her legal experience, to really make the case for something.
And we saw her do that for months when she was talking about the Dobbs decision.She was going through, state by state, talking about different abortion laws.She would hold up a map, you know, trying to explain that to voters.From what we've heard in private discussions that she would have with state lawmakers, and attorney generals, she would be extremely well versed in the details of the state laws, and have a back-and-forth with people, in a way that they were somewhat surprised that she knew the level of detail in those conversations.
Harris Becomes the Democratic Presidential Nominee
How high were the stakes for her when she goes on cable television after the pretty disastrous debate performance by Joe Biden?
So Harris went out and immediately defended the president when the entire party was stunned by his poor performance, and still trying to make sense of it, she immediately went out there and defended him.And you know, she had done that even a few months ago, when the Hur Report came out.There was talk about Biden's age, then, being in the spotlight.And she, you know, I had reported this at the time, that she had been asked to do a Sunday show, or defend the president there.And she told the White House that she needed to defend him in that moment.And you know, do it sooner, and not let this sort of define the campaign.
And so, she went out there and immediately defended him.So she tried to do that again after the debate, but what ended up happening was, people saw someone effectively communicate a message, draw a contrast with Trump, in a way that they didn't see on the debate stage.And in the CNN review, Anderson Cooper brought up that point, that she was making a more effective case, and explaining things in a way that they had not seen either of the candidates do on the stage.
And so that kind of started getting noticed more.After the interview, she also did public events.She did fundraisers, where she was, again, defending the president, saying that the election results shouldn't be defined by one bad night in June, that they needed to look at his record, give a more wholesome look to his record.
And I guess we weren't always seeing it on the outside, but meeting with those funders in the inside party activists in those weeks, and showing that vitality, was probably pretty important.
It was.And the vice presidency gives people this infrastructure that is already built in.So when the moment came, you know, yes, she had been doing fundraisers, and obviously campaigning for the president in the weeks before.But also, she had been doing that for the last four years, building those relationships.And when Biden bowed out of the race, she could immediately go into a phase where she could secure people's commitments.Thirty minutes after Biden bowed out of the race, he endorsed her.And from then on, it was very easy for her to use the relationships that she had built as vice president to get that support in a way that ended up not making sense for people to challenge her, because she already had the commitments locked.
I mean, there's the inside game that you're talking about, the phone calls.And then there's the outside game, because people had remembered the Lester Holt interview.And she goes out, I think first to Delaware, to the campaign headquarters.And everybody is waiting to see how she's going to react.How high are the stakes in that moment for Kamala Harris?
The stakes were high.I mean, she was able to essentially lock down support so fast, and not have a Democratic challenger, that you know, being the presumptive nominee, essentially overnight, comes with a lot of expectations, a lot of just awkwardness in some ways.I mean, she went to a campaign headquarters that until hours earlier, had been someone else's campaign headquarters.It was in Wilmington, Delaware, which she has no ties to.So just kind of putting herself into this infrastructure that had been built for someone else is sort of an awkward thing.And she didn't actively have to convince, obviously, campaign staffers.But they had been working for someone else.So to sort of go out there and prove to them that she can do this, that they should be excited about working for her, was sort of that first step that she faced.
What do you see when you see her in front of these crowds of all these tens of thousands of people?Some people have said they see something, not that she's a different person, but she has a different sense of timing.What do you see in those moments?
Yeah.I was just in Philadelphia for her rally, her first joint event with Tim Walz, her running mate.And it was packed.And it was loud.And sort of electric in a way that we have not seen, especially at Joe Biden's events.So it was definitely different from what we've seen from the party in general, even for her, to have that kind of support and energy, when people have doubted her political skills, whether she could be president throughout her vice presidency, people were all, you know, she was part of sort of this circle of criticism around her.And to see her go from that to where she is now, was pretty stunning.
Is it surprising for you, I mean, to have been on the old trips, where maybe she was meeting with a couple dozen people in a gymnasium, and then to be where she is now?
Yeah, not even a gymnasium.So one of the last events I covered for Harris when she first ran for president in 2019, she was doing this thing where she was going to people's houses, and making dinner with them, and connecting on a one-on-one level.This was, again, the sort of last gasp of the campaign, to try to focus on Iowa, to go door-to-door, and build support.And so this—It was, by this point, it was a small campaign, not attracting that much support.She dropped out a few weeks later.And to go from that to now, 14,000 people in Michigan, is pretty wild.And you can see how her experience being in the White House, being vice president, and the criticism that she's faced, the expectations that she's had to deal with, but also the relationships that she has built, the political infrastructure that is now behind her, has helped her get to the point where she is now.
And the idea of her being a prosecutor, which was maybe a liability in the Democratic primary, also feels a little bit different this time.
It does feel different this time.She is actively talking about her background as a prosecutor.She is trying to draw a contrast between her record and Trump's.You know, she talks about even her mortgage settlement as attorney general.There's a big section in her speech, where she talks about the people that she took on, including, you know, big banks, education institutions—she runs down the list, sexual predators, and kind of compares that to Donald Trump's record, in a way that, so far, has seemed to be exciting the Democratic base, when it didn't in 2019.
So the last question that we ask everybody is, from your perspective, from reporting on it, what is the choice that voters are facing in November?
The choice voters are facing is one that is more clear, perhaps, to voters than has been in past elections, in part because they've already experienced what a Trump presidency looks like.And then they have Harris, on the other side, who is presenting this vision that is rooted in not going back to Trump's presidency.This is a line that she has been using at her rallies, that the crowd is chanting back.She has a clear way of contrasting what she believes in with Trump's, in part because he's already been president.So in some ways, it's a more clear choice than they've had in the past.
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