The FRONTLINE Interviews
Tom Carper
U.S. Senator (D-Delaware)
Tom Carper has served as a U.S. Senator for Delaware since 2001. He is a longtime friend and colleague of Joe Biden.
The following interview was conducted by the Kirk Documentary Group’s Mike Wiser for FRONTLINE on March 15, 2024, prior to Joe Biden’s withdrawal from the presidential race. It has been edited for clarity and length.
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Joe Biden the Young Senator
When do you first come across Joe Biden, and who was he then?What kind of a person, what kind of a politician was he at that time?
I was on the other side of the world when I first heard of Joe Biden.I was a P-3 aircraft mission commander, Navy P-3 aircraft mission commander.Did three tours in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War.Our job was to fly missions off the coast of Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos and the South China Sea to chase Russian subs and to attack infiltrated trawlers coming in to resupply the Vietcong and take down the government of South Vietnam, which was our ally.And we'd fly 12-hour missions.
And one evening in November 1972, I remember we flew our mission, finished our 12-hour mission, landed, debriefed and went to the chow hall with our crew and had some dinner and then went to our quarters.And the mail had come that day.And it was the best day of the week when the mail came.And I used to get, when we were overseas, I would get Time and Newsweek every week, plus the regular mail.
Anyway, I started going through the presidential elections that occurred the week before, and the Time and Newsweek that I read there in November of '72 looked at not just presidential elections, but Senate races across the country, including a race in Delaware, where a young whippersnapper, a 29-year-old guy named Joe Biden, had somehow knocked out an icon, political icon who had been governor, senator, congressman and beat him, to the surprise and amazement of everybody.And I thought to myself, whoa, he must be a very special guy.
He was in both stories, both the cover story in Time and the cover story in Newsweek at the age of 29.And I thought, hmm, boy, wouldn't it be neat to meet him someday?What an interesting state Delaware was.I'd actually traveled through Delaware when I was early in my Navy career.
But anyway, I tucked that away.Later on, I finished my time in the Navy and decided I wanted to go to business school.Got an MBA.Moved to Delaware, got an MBA at the University of Delaware.And while I was in my first year in business school, I ended up volunteering in a congressional campaign for the Democrat running for the lone seat in the U.S.House of Representatives.
And I ended up being, while I was a full-time graduate student, still flying with the Navy in the Reserves, I ended up becoming the treasurer and fundraiser in a congressional campaign.I'd been in Delaware like six months, and the fellow who was running for—beloved professor at the University of Delaware—as our candidate for Congress, he was invited by Joe Biden, then-Sen. Joe Biden,to come to the Bidens' home just in northern Delaware and to bring his candidate's A-team with him, just to spend some time with Joe Biden, who just a year earlier had pulled off the upset of the century in Delaware, and I thought maybe that he was willing to share some things, some thoughts with us, how he was successful, and maybe what we could learn from what he did well in that campaign and what they did not well.
And I didn't know what to expect.This guy's young, and I'd expected he's probably really full of himself and would not be of much help at all, and mostly would just focus on him, big ego and so forth.I could not have been more mistaken.He was warm and welcoming and humble.
He said, "I remember when I was in your shoes, nobody thought I had a chance to become elected to the U.S.Senate, and here's what we did." He went through it chapter and verse.And I thought how—what we could learn from what he did right, what they did right in this campaign, what they did wrong.
And we have been friends ever since then.…
All Politics is Personal
Is there something about Joe Biden that you think most people don't know that you've learned being a friend of his over those 50 years, something that defines him that we might not recognize?
Well, he has a lot of favorite sayings.I have a few myself.I've heard all of his, and he's heard all of mine.But one of my favorite Biden sayings is, “All politics is personal.All diplomacy is personal.” And to the amazement of a lot of our colleagues in the Senate and in other places, he is able to strike and build relationships with people you never would imagine he would be able to do that with in order to get things done, including the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, the biggest bipartisan package we've ever—with the largest climate title ever, to be able to get that through a Republican House and Senate and all the Democrats.And a lot of that was just the kind of interpersonal relationships that he has.
Some people probably think that Joe Biden is just a partisan and only likes to work with Democrats.He can work with just about anybody.And when he was early in the Senate, he did that with people like [Sen. John] Stennis and folks, even [Sen.] Strom Thurmond, people like that.How could a Democrat ever find common cause with any of those guys?But he could, and he's able to do the same thing as well today.
When you read about his own autobiography, and he talks about arriving in the Senate after the car crash, he talks about it almost as a family.Does he have an emotional connection to the Senate?
I think Joe Biden loves the Senate.He loves people, and he has a great affection for his colleagues, and frankly, with their families as well.And I think that probably will come as a surprise to most people, that we actually are a little bit of a family.And it's not quite like it was 20, 30, 40 years ago, but there's still a genuine affection.I work pretty well across the aisle, but part of it is there's a Bible study that meets every Thursday with the Senate chaplain, and there's about a half dozen, six, seven, eight of us, some Democrats, some Republicans, and we have bonded.We have, like, really bonded with one another, and we're able to work on all kinds of legislation, including stuff like extending health care coverage to people who need that.So there's still some good stuff there.
Joe Biden’s Delaware Roots
Do you think that it matters that Joe Biden came out of Delaware, that that was where his political rise was, that that was the state that he represented, that he went back and forth on the Amtrak?
Yeah, I think Delaware helped shape him, and me as well.There's something in Delaware called the Delaware Way where, two days after the election, winners and losers come together.It's in Georgetown, Delaware, not too far from the beaches.We have breakfast together two days after the election with our families, and we ride in a horse-drawn carriage ride.You ride in a horse-drawn carriage with the person you ran against two days earlier.We have a ceremonial burying of the hatchet right in the middle of the circle there in lovely Georgetown, Delaware.And we use sand from the beaches of Delaware and cover up the hatchet, bury the hatchet, literally bury the hatchet, and we say, “The elections are over; let's figure out how we're going to work together.” That's, for Joe Biden and for me, when I was right out of the Navy and new in Delaware, that was the one of the first things that impressed me, that elections were important: We fight hard; we fight fair; but at the end of the day, we have to be able to work together.And I think that certainly has helped guide him in his career, and I hope it helped guide me in mine.
… So you said that when you first met Biden, that you didn't see him as sort of an arrogant guy.But he's also very ambitious.… What makes him run, just starting in '87, for the presidency?What is it about him that he puts himself forward?
There's a lot of people that are ambitious in our nation's capital, a lot of people in the Senate who think they're smarter than whoever might be president or was president or would be president.There's nothing wrong with being ambitious.I got out of the Navy, moved to Delaware, got an MBA, literally ran for office within two years, for statewide office, ran and won, and inspired in no small part because of what Joe Biden had done a couple of years earlier, and his encouragement to me to see if I couldn't replicate it.…
He sees himself as a servant at the end of the day.Some people, when they got elected to big offices, big jobs, they think of themselves as a kingmaker; they think of themselves as just a famous person or whatever.Joe Biden sees himself as a servant and understands that our job is to serve and not be served.
… How is he known in the Senate?I assume that there's only 100 people in that club, and everybody sort of has a different reputation of what they're like.How was Joe Biden known?
My memory is still pretty good.I'm 77 years old, but I don't remember anybody just like saying, "I can't stand that guy," or like, "He's awful.I wish we didn't have to serve with him." People like him, and people who get to know him like him.He's smart, but he's not a smart aleck.And he's somebody who has great interpersonal skills.
And just an example: One of our colleagues in the Senate just earlier this month lost her mother, and Joe Biden, literally in the midst of everything he's doing, took the time to reach out to her, to express sympathy as part of the family, the Senate family.And that's something is genuine.He loved my mother; he certainly loved his own mother.And he thinks that we should treat other people the way we want to be treated.And that's a great lesson for all of us.
The Transition from Senator to Vice President
He makes a choice to leave the Senate when [former President] Barack Obama asks him to run as his running mate.Do you think that was a difficult decision for him, to give up what he had built in the Senate?
I tell the story, and I don't know if I've ever shared this before, but he and I were staying in fairly close touch when Barack … was going to be the nominee. Barack had not yet announced who was going to be his running mate, and there was speculation about a number of people who were my friends, Joe's friends.
My wife and I were driving to Williamsburg, Virginia, the night before Barack would make the announcement of who his running mate was going to be.And we're driving to Williamsburg, William and Mary, with our youngest son.… The phone rang that evening, and I answered it, and it was Joe Biden calling, and I thought he was calling to tell me whether or not Barack was going to pick him and announce that he's going to be his running mate.And he wasn't.He said, "I'm calling to talk to Ben." (Laughs.) And he said, "I don't know who Barack's going to announce tomorrow, but," he said, "I just want to talk to Ben before he goes to start college tomorrow."
So they spent about 10 to 15 minutes on the line, and there was Joe as a father sharing what he'd shared with his own sons and trying to make sure that Ben turned out OK.As it turned out, he's made us all very, very proud.
But I think that says a lot about Joe Biden.The next day, Barack announced that Joe was going to be his running mate, and my wife said, "Why didn't he tell you that?" And I said, "He wanted to talk to Ben." Ben will never forget that conversation.Neither will we.
… Do you think it was a hard transition for him to become vice president and to not be a senator?There were stories at the time that there was some disrespect inside the White House and people talked about “Uncle Joe.” When you would hear those stories, what was your reaction?…
Yeah, we would talk about it.It's not an easy transition.It's not an easy transition to be a congressman, to become a governor; it's a different kind of job, and it takes a while to get on to it.
Again, Joe's approach to life is all politics is personal, all diplomacy is personal, and making things happen in a transition like that is personal as well.And I think that when the people in the White House got to know him better, not just as a senator but as a vice president, and saw the kind of confidence that Barack had in Joe Biden, looked up to him, bought him into—… I've heard him say this.He said, “The kind of experience that Joe Biden brought to our administration was hard to measure, hard to say too much about it, just brought a huge amount.” And I think that's true.
Do you think those comments and the sort of disrespect affect him personally?I mean, he says all politics is personal.Is there a sense that it is personal for him sometimes, that it hurts that people say he's a guy who talks too much or don't take him seriously?
There might have been some people who said that.You may recall what Barack inherited the worst recession, I think, since the Great Depression.And who did he put in charge of helping to get us out of that hole?Joe Biden.And Joe Biden literally oversaw the recovery effort.And it was done in a way that was cost-effective; it was done in a way that was respectful of our fiscal responsibility.And it was effective.
Within a year or two, we'd righted the ship, and were heading on a good path, and Barack was able to run for reelection.And for those people who might have questioned whether or not Joe Biden really had a role, an appropriate role in the administration, could he really be a change agent and make a difference, I think they were a lot quieter after that happened.
Beau Biden
Can you help me understand Beau before the diagnosis, his relationship with Joe Biden and his place in politics and in Delaware and where it seemed like he was headed?
He was a special talent.He had just—he was a warm, wonderful person.He had the heart of a servant.I think he was admired by Democrats and Republicans, and I think a lot of people saw that he had a very, very bright, bright future.And he's also a person full of love.…
… Please help me understand the impact of Beau's death on Vice President Biden and how it shaped that decision that he would have to make about whether to run in 2016 or not.
I never had a conversation with Beau about, do you think your dad ought to run again?But I'm confident that he encouraged him, wanted him to run, and made it very clear that he felt that his dad should run.I'm sure that that confidence, that encouragement stays with Joe every day.
But he doesn't run in 2016, which is right after Beau's death, and he's said that that's part of the reason.Is that how you see it, that he wasn't ready in that cycle in 2016 to run again, so close to Beau's death?…
I'm not—I'm sure that was among the factors.There were other factors.One is Hillary and Joe Biden were friends, and it's always tough to run against a friend, and I think that was certainly one of the other factors as well.It was one of a number, I'm sure.
Biden Runs in 2020
Two years later, in the middle of the [Donald] Trump presidency, he decides that he is going to run and that it's his time.Why do you think that Joe Biden saw it as finally his time?…
Joe and I are from Delaware.We were both born in other states, but most of our life in Delaware.And Delaware, known for a number of things, one of the things we're, I think, known for is we're the first state to ratify the Constitution.And I was a 17-year-old midshipman when I first raised my right hand and took an oath to defend the country and Constitution.But the Constitution is something we revere.We feel that Delaware started and helped start a nation and the longest living democracy in the history of the world, the most replicated Constitution in the history of the world. And that the idea of having a president who doesn't see it that way, who undermines our democracy, someone who demeans our troops, someone who calls people in military “losers”—I remember what it was like coming home after the Vietnam War, and my colleagues and I who had served in that war didn't get a hero's welcome.It was not a warm, fuzzy welcome.We didn't have victory parades or that sort of thing.
Joe Biden has probably been the best president—as a veteran, the last Vietnam veteran serving in U.S.Senate—I think he's probably the best president we've had in my lifetime in terms of the way we care for our veterans.…
One of the things he said to me that—and I think one of the reasons why we've been friends—is he reveres my own military service, respects my military service.Donald Trump doesn't.Donald Trump doesn't see our role as a nation as, like, the leading nation, democratic nation in the world.Joe Biden says NATO, our alliances with NATO, alliances with folks over in the Pacific, including the Koreans and the Japanese, Australians and New Zealand, that's a huge part of our national security, and they're part of our family.Donald Trump would walk away from them tomorrow.So it could not be a more dramatic difference.
The Biden Administration
The legislation that passes during the Biden administration—the COVID stimulus, the infrastructure, the Inflation Reduction Act—what role does Joe Biden play, President Biden play in all of that?
I had the opportunity to, as the chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee, to sit in on a number of meetings with President Trump and the folks in his Cabinet, folks from the House and Senate, Democrat and Republican, a number of meetings at the White House to talk about a need for infrastructure—roads, highways, bridges, water, wastewater, ports.
And I remember we would go—it would be like every other week, every other month would be Infrastructure Week or Infrastructure Month.And we'd talk about it; the president would talk about it.Nothing ever happened.Literally nothing ever happened about it.Joe Biden had been president for, like, a week, and he called me on the phone.He's always called me Tommy.He said, "Tommy, I'm calling to ask you to do me a big favor." I said, "What is that, Mr.President?" He said, "I want you to come over to the White House next week.I want you to bring with you some of the key senators, a Democrat and Republican, off your committee, Environment and Public Works Committee, that has jurisdiction over a lot of infrastructure.I want you to come, and let's have a meeting, figure out how we get started," not just to say, “It's going to be Infrastructure Week or Infrastructure Month,” but how we actually do something. And less than a year later, he signed on the White House Lawn the largest infrastructure bill in the history of the country, but also with the biggest climate title that we've ever had.So it was a twofer.
And sitting beside me were [Sen.] Shelley Capito (R-W.Va.), who helped manage the bill coming out of our committee and was a great co-architect of that policy, and the other side was [Sen.] Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.)—three kids from West Virginia who had worked with the Democratic president on the infrastructure package, and not just passed it but actually enacted it.It's one thing to pass legislation, sign into law; the other thing is like, is it going to be enacted and actually carried out?This administration, this president has made damn sure that we're going to carry it out and that it's going to be funded; it's going to be implemented across the country.
If you look at polls, it seems like a lot of voters who, at least what they're telling pollers, don't really give him that much credit for the legislation, for all of those things that we're talking about.Is that frustrating to him?…
I think the expectations of the president were low going into the State of the Union address.And I remember sitting there and saying a prayer for him.I've heard a lot of State of the Union addresses in my time in the Senate, and governor before that, Congress before that.I thought he just crushed it.I thought he just crushed it, and in the best possible way.
I remember feeling as he—and he didn’t really have another other side—and he handled this beautifully.And he was strong.He was strong when he needed to be; he was softer when he needed.It was just perfect.And there are a lot of people who think, well, he doesn't have the ability to stand and deliver it.How will he be able to work on the international stage?They just saw Joe Biden at his best.In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a president, Democrat or Republican—and I've seen some good ones—do a better job than that.
And I have a friend, you ask him how he's doing, he says, “Compared to what?” And compare that performance to the performance of—you know, one of the tough jobs is to have to give the response to the president's State of the Union.I would never want to have that job, and I feel sorry for those who do.But the comparison between Joe Biden that night before the nation and the Republican response just a few minutes later, it could not have been more stark and dramatic.I literally felt sitting there that night, I felt the fears I've had—for losing our democracy, losing our democracy after all these years—were real and palpable, and I felt those fears just dissipate.
Biden’s Age
Do you think it's frustrating for him, those questions and the [special counsel Robert] Hur report and people talking about his age and mental acuity, is that difficult for him?…
Again, I'm a former naval officer for many, many years, retired Navy captain.I had a lot of jobs in the Navy, P-3 aircraft mission commander for many years, three tours to Southeast Asia.Part of that time, I was the person in my squadron who—I briefed top-secret briefings, all kinds of missions overseas.I was a custodian for a while for our classified material, confidential, secret, top secret.So I have some pretty good ideas how we're supposed to handle classified material.
Joe Biden, by his own admission, did not do the kind of job that he and his staff should have done in protecting sensitive, in some cases very sensitive information.But when the question was called, “Did you do everything you should have been doing?,” from that day forward, he basically said, "I’m an open book.Come in, look at everything.This is what we did.Here's what we think we did well.This is what we think we did wrong," and could not have been more cooperative.
What the special counsel Hur has just disclosed is he said that he thought the president's memory was not as good as it used to be.Well, for most of us, it's not as good as it used to be.But he also acknowledged that they had open access, the investigators had open access to everything that the president, the White House, had to show, even the residence of the president.And compared to what?Compared to Donald Trump, who basically put up roadblocks every step of the way, has not been cooperative.…
As you know, there's criticism, like why is he running for a second term?And there's some anxiety among some on the left about that decision.Why is Joe Biden running for a second term, based on talking to him and knowing him?
In Delaware, we revere the Constitution.We revere our role in ratifying the Constitution.The idea that to have a president who may not have that commitment to our democracy as a nation, longest living democracy in history of the country, who doesn't have a commitment to our alliances and NATO and other alliances in the Pacific, who doesn't see us as a leader, whether it's fighting COVID or it's a leader of the Russians invading Ukraine, you couldn't ask for a stronger president.
I've known some of the Republican [presidents].I knew Ronald Reagan, I knew George Herbert Walker Bush, and they were good men and good leaders.They must be spinning in their grave, as Republicans and former commanders in chief, to hear Donald Trump cozy up to [Russian President] Vladimir Putin, cozy up to Xao— [President] Xi [Jinping], rather, in China.Why would we accept a leader like that?
Joe Biden used to work with folks in other countries.But the idea from day one, when the Russians invaded the Ukraine, Joe Biden said: “This is wrong.We're not going to stand for this.We're going to do everything we can to pull together really a coalition of the willing, including NATO and others around the country.” Trump would have never done that.I don't know of any other president who could have done it as well.…
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