NEWS ARCHIVE: Right now, US helicopters over Kabul shuttling out American personnel as the Taliban moves in to the capital.
NEWS ARCHIVE: After 20 years, the Taliban took Kabul and Afghanistan almost effortlessly
NEWS ARCHIVE: Social media posts showed scenes of chaos as thousands of Afghans swarm the tarmac, trying to get on any flight to escape
Raney Aronson-Rath, Host: This August marks one year since US troops withdrew from Afghanistan, and the Taliban swept back into power.
President Joe Biden: Last night in Kabul, the United States ended 20 years of war in Afghanistan.
NEWS ARCHIVE: The Taliban say they're bringing peace and ending corruption.
NEWS ARCHIVE: The Taliban insists they will respect women's rights within the framework of Sharia law.
NEWS ARCHIVE: We want to assure the international community there will be no discrimination against women, but of course, within our religious framework.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH At the time, the Taliban pledged to respect the rights of women, but quickly facts on the ground began to tell a different story. In FRONTLINE’s new documentary, Afghanistan Undercover, correspondent Ramita Navai investigates the group’s crackdown on women. Over the course of several months, she and her colleagues traveled the country, often operating undercover.
Ramita Navai [film]: We're hearing so many stories of abuse at the hands of the Taliban, but none of these stories are getting out.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH On this episode of the FRONTLINE Dispatch, a conversation with Ramita Navai about her reporting in Afghanistan and the plight of women there.
Ramita Navai [interview]: This is a story that… it's part of me now.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH I’m Raney Aronson-Rath, executive producer and editor-in-chief of FRONTLINE, and this is the FRONTLINE Dispatch.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH Ramita, thank you so much for joining us on the Dispatch.
RAMITA NAVAI: Thank you for having me.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH You know, I was thinking back, looking at this film, you know, working on this film with you, that we've been working with you for 10 years. And one of the things that's always just struck me about your work is the level of access and intimacy you get with the people that you're reporting on. And I think I wanna start there. Can you talk us through, in terms of Afghanistan, how did you actually operate there? You're a woman you're Iranian. How did you actually operate there and what did you do?
RAMITA NAVAI: Well, first of all, being a woman in a country like Afghanistan as a journalist, when you're trying to get information and tell a story and get access can be a great thing because you're overlooked. Um, you are totally dismissed and overlooked, which meant that people weren't even aware of me in the street in certain situations, uh, in certain situations that could have been risky.
It also meant that Karim, uh, Karim Shah, a brilliant director, um, knew this and acted as a decoy. So for example, when I was secretly filming in, uh, the prison in Herat prison, Karim stepped up. He was brilliant. And he knew that if he took attention away from me, I could get on with secretly filming. And I actually had to enable my secret filming equipment while I was in the prison.
So that is really, that can be really helpful. Um, I like to operate under the radar. I always like to blend in. Um, so I always dress like a local. In Afghanistan, of course, that's really easy because as you said, I'm originally Iranian. So I look Afghan. I also speak the language I speak Persian and the difference between Perian and Dari is a bit like French and Quebecois.
Um, and even though I speak Persian like a truck driver, by the way, Raney, it still meant that, you know, we posed as a couple. So if we were stopped and sometimes we were stopped, um, I would talk us out of the situation and Karim would be like my mute, tall husband. So Karim, as you know, is, is half Pakistani. So he wore local clothes and he can also pass as a local. And that meant that we could access parts of the country that outsiders can't get to. You know, if you wanna travel through the country now they're are Taliban checkpoints everywhere. And we were waved through because they look in every single car and we just look like another Afghan family.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH Right, right. This is a story, obviously, the way that you tell it and the, um, the way that you really, really uncover the plight of women there, is really a story that the Taliban did not want to be told. That was clear in your interviews with them. Talk to me a little bit about your relationship as you're reporting on this with the Taliban and, and how direct was it and how much did they know that you all were doing, or if anything?
RAMITA NAVAI: So as you rightly say, this is a story they're really sensitive about. They know that the international community is looking at their treatment of women and kind of using it as a litmus test. Um, they know that. So these are stories, as you said, they want to keep hidden. Now they knew we were there. We got visas. And when you arrive, you have to get official accreditation. So we went to the ministry of foreign affairs and got our accreditation. We were staying in a big hotel in Kabul. Um, so on one hand they knew of our presence. However we had to operate mostly undercover and under the radar, um, most importantly to keep our contributors safe.
So even though they knew of our presence, every time we left the hotel, we went to great pains and took great uh, and, and it took a lot of planning, to make sure that we weren't being monitored. We weren't being followed. There was no link between us, our contributors and the Taliban.
They did not know what we were doing. And since we have been there, uh, we've actually seen the Taliban have thrown out journalists when they found out that they were covering women's stories.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH Hmm. Ramita, one of the most remarkable moments of the film is in the prison, which you've mentioned the, the hidden camera inside the prison. Why that prison? I mean, just talk me through why you and Karim identified that prison.
RAMITA NAVAI: So we have found out women were disappearing from the streets of Herat. And slowly with the help of families, of girls and young women who were disappearing. And with the help of four female lawyers, we realized that intelligence, Taliban intelligence officers were taking women from the streets of Herat — were arresting them and imprisoning them. Even worse than that, they weren't officially recording any of these imprisonments. That's why nobody knew what had happened to these women. There was no official record of them and these women were just getting lost in the system and they were stuck in prison. And that's why we needed to get into Herat prison and see for ourselves what was happening because Raney, just a little bit of background. When the Taliban took over they emptied prisons across the country. So prison, jail and prison doors were flung open and prisoners were released. So these prisoners had been in prison since the Taliban takeover, but we needed evidence of that. So when I started researching this story actually Raney, um, you know, quite a few Afghan experts told me no, the prisons are still empty. There are no, there are no records of any…
RANEY ARONSON-RATH No kidding.
RAMITA NAVAI: Yeah.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH I didn't know that.
RAMITA NAVAI: And now we realize why there's no record of these women being imprisoned because the Taliban was keeping it secret and hidden from the world. So it, you know, I, I, and, and, and this is one of those things I, I just knew it was happening. I spoke to, uh, an amazing Afghan activist who helped me a lot. This is before I went into the country. This is the months before we went in. We were researching it. She had a hunch. She'd heard, you know, it's word of mouth. So, and so it’s, you know, my, my aunt's sister's daughter's friend we've heard, so there was no real evidence. There was just kind of anecdotal evidence here and there. And I just, I, I knew it to be, I just, I had a hunch and of course we went to Herat and it was, it was happening. So that's why we just needed to get into that prison to see for ourselves.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH There's one thing to have stories. There's another thing to have evidence and to see the women there was, um, was quite something it takes a lot to get in there. Can you tell me how you made that happen? And of course, I also wanna know, are you worried at all times that you might get caught yourself?
RAMITA NAVAI: I was worried then. Yeah, I think that's one of the times that I, I, I was at my most nervous. I mean, mostly I was nervous cuz I wasn't sure if the secret filming equipment would work. You know, we'd played around with it a little before, but it was actually really hard to tell if the equipment was on or not, and if you'd set it properly and because of its battery life. I could only set it up when I was in the prison. So that was a terrifying part that, you know, I'm in the middle of this prison surrounded by what about 15 armed Talibs — prison officials and fighters. And I have to turn on my secret filming equipment.
This is where being a woman was great because they didn't even notice me. And if they did notice me, um, they couldn't engage with me. You know, it's not proper for them to engage with me. And this is when Karim was a great decoy telling his really bad jokes, making sure that they didn't, they didn't turn around and it was in those moments that I had to set this thing up. And that's when I was really terrified. I was also scared, you know, we didn't know too much about the prison setup. We tried to find out, but hadn't been able to find out whether I’d be x-rayed. You know, we had really good contingency plans and we had plans of what we were gonna say if the equipment was caught, but we were really worried.
And yeah, I, I. I mean, Karim and I were talking the other day and we still can't believe that we quite managed to do it.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH So, okay. So you're going into the prison. Talk me through going through that. Um, you know, the checkpoint as you're going in. And what's your first thought when you're walking in there, do, were you surprised?
RAMITA NAVAI: So, well, the first thought was we need to get to the women's section. So we had been told very clearly you're not getting anywhere near the women's section. We're only gonna show you the men's section. And so of course we knew if that was the case and we don't have the story we needed to get into that women's section.
We, we, we needed that evidence. We heard what was happening. We needed to see it for ourselves. So, you know, we went through the motions of going, you know, hearing them speak, going into the men's section. And then we kicked into action and that's when we started to try and convince them, um, not me directly, that we needed to get into the women's section. And it was partly luck. And partly because, um, the part Taliban prison chief, um, was convinced by some of his own men, actually that, Hey, listen, these foreigners are gonna get really suspicious. They're gonna think something's on if you don't show them the women's section, that's why he agreed ultimately in the end.
So then. Then we’re marched, you know, like I said, there's a, there's a whole entourage, there were like 15 armed minders. So then we're taken to the women's section with strict instruction. Do not talk to the women, not allowed to go anywhere near them. And that's when it started to get, you know, I, I, I started to get nervous cuz I, I realized I had to talk to the women. By this point, Raney, they didn't know that I could speak Persian. So I'd been really careful to keep that to myself. So if they saw me scooting, you know, they saw me, um, going to try and talk to the women, they would think, oh, but she can't cause she doesn't have her translator with her. So that would buy me time. So walked into the courtyard, and as I said, I, I, I fixed my secret camera equipment, um, which was pretty scary not knowing whether it was working or not. Walked into a courtyard and immediately just couldn't believe just got really, really excited, actually thinking, okay, right now I've gotta kick into action, cuz this is really happening.
And these women are really here and there were about 40 women huddled in the courtyard and the, the prison chief and his men all started kind of lecturing to Karim. Not to me. I was invisible. I'm a woman. And that's when I sprung into action and I slipped past them really quickly. I remember the prison chief's back was turned talking to Karim and Karim knew exactly what was happening.
He was keeping, you know, attention diverted and I went straight for the women and managed to speak to the women. And they told me —and I didn't have long—they told me they had all been in prison since Taliban took over that they were all there for so-called moral crimes for immorality, um, and basically, I, I, the prison chief then spotted me. He was not happy. Um, and I was told in no uncertain terms to stop talking, um, to stop talking to the prisoners. Stopped talking and I realized I need needed more. I had one more chance, and this time I saw Maryam and I couldn't believe it. So Maryam is a young woman who disappeared in Herat. We'd spoken to her family, they'd found out she was in this prison that found out she'd been arrested, um, and accused of immorality. And they/d showed me photos of her and I recognized her from the photos. Her mother had shown me. She started talking to me in English because she was right next to a prison guard. And she, yeah, she said, I have a message for the world, let them know what's happening. And that if we speak out, they hit us. And the prison guard told her to stop speaking English.
And then she started speaking Dari Persian, and then she started to praise the Taliban and it was all over. And we had what we needed and the prison chief was not happy. He turned around to our team and he said, why can’t, why can't any of you control this crazy woman?
RANEY ARONSON-RATH oh my goodness. I mean,
RAMITA NAVAI: I think my mom, my, my mom and dad might agree with that statement, Raney.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH I, I, I just was gonna say like, oh, it is such a documentary moment. It is unforgettable. And because you care so deeply in the film about her, the fact that you find her, then you have no idea what's going to happen with her. And then you find her is — it's a really emotional moment on top of being important journalism.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH So for Maryam, what were the actual, what was the actual cause for her to be in prison? Did you ever find out what the so-called immorality —what, what was the charge about?
RAMITA NAVAI: She'd been in a car with a man she wasn't related to as had four of her friends on a separate occasion. Simply, been in a, been driving with, uh, a, a male friend they weren't related to, and that is a crime. That's, uh, moral corruption. Um, leaving your husband — that's also moral corruption. Traveling long distances without, without a male member of the family — that's also a, a moral crime. I, I would say, I think it's important to note that these things were all moral crimes under the previous government. Right? So you could have been, uh, arrested for traveling with someone you weren't related to under the previous government. However, if it did happen, there was a judicial process. There were people working to get you out. So, you know, I, when I, the first time I went to Afghanistan was in 2005 and I actually visited, um, Kabul women's prison back in 2005. And I spoke to women then who had been, uh, imprisoned, uh, for leaving their husbands running away from home for these so-called moral crimes.
The atmosphere was very different. All of their crimes. First of all, the numbers were far fewer. All of their crimes, uh, were officially registered and they had, you know, the Red Crescent, Red Cross, they had charities helping to get them out, uh, as well as lawyers. And they had, um, a pretty firm judicial process then.
Now there is none of that. And, and, and also I would, I would say it's very unusual back then to be, you know, especially in big cities, like Herat and Kabul, it was very unusual to, you know, end up in prison. For simply being in a car with someone you're unrelated to it rarely happened. And if it did happen, there was a judicial process.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH So you do something undercover like this and just, you know, we don't know what the future holds for, for Afghanistan and the Taliban, but how do you, how do you consider like the ability to then go report again?
Is it, is it more dangerous and especially because, you know, you are also the correspondent in the storyteller, in the film? So you're not behind the camera only, like Karim is.
RAMITA NAVAI: Yeah, I mean, I don't think we're gonna be going back anytime soon. Um, so I do know that other journalists have been thrown out the country, haven’t been able to do their, their work and I have it on good, good authority that it's as a result of our film. You know, so they know about our film and they are not happy about our film. So, yeah, I, I, I, I I'm, I'm itching to go back. You know, this is a story that I it's part of me now. I'm still in touch with Maryam. I'm in touch with her family. I'm in touch with Arifa, the amazing young activist. Uh, who's incredibly brave. who's now managed to leave the country. Um, I'm in touch with a lot of the people we met there. Um, and I, we message regularly and. Yeah, these stories. We, we, we can't abandon the women of Afghanistan and the news cycle will move on. They already feel abandoned, you know, when we were there. Um, so in between the first trip and the second trip, um, Russia invaded Ukraine. So we first went there 30 days in November, December, and we went back in March. We went back in March, every single Afghan women we spoke to said we've been forgotten about now. Now the, the world is watching Ukraine. We've been forgotten about.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH Well, that makes a great deal of sense, which is really why we have to keep reporting this and why we have to share this. So when you were there, you know, you did actually speak to the Taliban. Tell me what you heard from them regarding the stories that you were finding and how did you, how did you ask some questions, even though you had been undercover? How do you navigate that as a journalist?
RAMITA NAVAI: So we left those interviews until the last couple of days. Literally, um, we had to be really, really careful actually, you know, even when we were in the provinces, it's this, it was this kind of balancing act between them knowing that we're operating and us working undercover. And I'll give you an example.
So when we arrived in Faizabad in the Northern province of Badakhshan, um, all journalists have to register with the local office, the, the information and culture office. And of course, you're an outsider. You're staying in a hotel there. Everybody knows your presence. It's pretty hard um, in these, you know, in these big cities to operate. If you want to film openly, you need this accreditation because you are stopped and you are stopped the whole time.
So what we did was under the radar, get all the stuff that we needed to get. So keep all those contributors safe. We were given a Taliban minder. An armed Taliban minder. Of course they tell you that's for your own safety, but we, we know, you know, that he's reporting back what you're doing every day and then we go and we get all the street shots with our minder, but we've already got all the stuff that could get people killed.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH Right. Tell me what the Taliban told you. Let's just talk through, what is their response now?
RAMITA NAVAI: So. I mean, their response was infuriating and it was absolute denial, you know? So I spoke to a spokesperson for information and culture in Badakhshan in the Northern province. Denial. So this was a pattern everywhere we went. Absolute denial.
Uh, no it's impossible that forced marriages are happening. There's no way that our men who are upstanding moral, good men would ever do this. Against all our principles. And of course at that point I couldn't push it. We were still midway through filming. I had to be really careful. So like I said, we saved all of our evidence to put to them to the last minute, to keep everyone safe and to keep us safe.
And we interviewed the deputy spokesperson of the government on the way to the airport. I mean, that's also how careful, you know, uh, we, we had a security advisor and he was really worried.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH. I was hoping you would talk about that. You're leaving the country. You're finally able to ask the, the Taliban, like some of your findings more directly. How, how did that go over? Like how did you do that?
RAMITA NAVAI: So our security advisor in no uncertain terms had said, you do this interview right at the end, which we did on our way to the airport. And we put our findings to the deputy government spokesperson and yeah, he denied, he denied all of it where he did, where he was more open to what he called cultural differences. He put it down to cultural differences. This is the way we do it here.
You Westerners worry about how you run your country. And we will run our country by our own laws and rules. But apart from that, you know, specific allegations — absolute denial. You know, I, I, you, you're not always sure whether they really believe it. In most cases they know what's happening.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH Really interesting. I mean, all of these complexities. I wanted to ask you more of a, of a personal question if you don't mind. So you, you know, started your work with FRONTLINE in Syria. And you embedded, you know, with the youth, activists and opposition. What draws you to these types of stories? What is it about you that wants to actually go into these spots?
RAMITA NAVAI: God, you know, on a personal, on a personal level. I remember the Iranian revolution really clearly. It was 1979. I was five. I was six when I finally left the country, but I remember it so clearly. And that revolution changed the course of our lives, my life, my family's life, a generation. Growing up with the specter of the revolution with what had happened in my country. And it being discussed at the breakfast table at family gatherings, at parties being discussed all the time. You know, it was just normal for as all of, as, as any Iranians listening in will know, you know, it becomes part of your DNA, part of your blood, part of your life.
So understanding what has happened in a country, understanding this division is what ultimately drives me, trying to understand these divisions and these fractures and how a country can go through transformation and change and what it does to a people. You know, what does oppression do to a people? How does a whole society react? What's the fallout? That is what — and for me, it's always human stories tell you that. Right?
So I spent years and years reporting from Iran and in Iran, everyone was interested in sanctions and the nuclear crisis and political turmoil and internal political divisions. Whereas actually the way to really understand the country was through human stories, the way to really investigate what was happening there. And I knew that from my own childhood. From the human stories of what happened, the devastation that happened to the people around me, in my, around my family. And that's what still drives me is that need to understand. And of course, you know, there's holding power to account. Of course, that sense of, you know, we all that do this job —you will know — it's that sense of injustice that drives you as well. But on a personal level, I would say it's deeply connected to my roots and my family history.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH So I want to thank you and Karim, because the work is brave and the work is really important. And this is only, you know, one of many films that we've, we've supported of yours, but every single time, Ramita, I just feel, I feel so proud that your work is on FRONTLINE.
RAMITA NAVAI: Oh, thank you. Oh, my God. Well, I mean, do you know how proud I feel? For us correspondents, it doesn't get much better than Frontline.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH Well, we feel the same about the two of you. So thank you again for your, for your brave work. And thanks for joining me on the Dispatch.
RAMITA NAVAI: Thank you for having me.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH To watch Afghanistan Undercover, head to frontline.org.
