NEWS ARCHIVE: An unimaginable tragedy in Texas.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Just over one year ago…
NEWS ARCHIVE: Some families are getting that news they didn’t want to receive this evening
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: … a young man armed with an AR-15-style rifle walked into Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas and killed 19 children and two adults.
SEN. ROLAND GUTTIEREZ: I stood there as families were informed that their children had passed on. I heard screams that I never heard in my life.
FELICIA MARTINEZ: We’re very angry. And we want justice for our kids.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: After Uvalde: Guns, Grief, and Texas Politics is a new FRONTLINE documentary, made in partnership with Futuro Investigates and The Texas Tribune.
ZACH DESPART: This video footage shows what the police response was…
MARIA HINOJOSA: Give me the timing of this?
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and host of the podcast Latino USA Maria Hinojosa is the film’s correspondent and spent time in Uvalde examining the aftermath.
MARIA HINOJOSA: After a horrific tragedy like this, what do you do?
GLORIA CAZARES: We’re not giving up.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: I’m Raney Aronson-Rath, editor-in-chief and executive producer of FRONTLINE, and this is the FRONTLINE Dispatch.
[sponsor roll]
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Maria, thanks so much for joining me on the dispatch.
MARIA HINOJOSA: Raney. I am so happy to be here on your podcast. Thank you for inviting me.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: So yeah, I wanna just launch right in with you. Tell me about the moment that you heard first about what happened at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.
MARIA HINOJOSA: You know, I can't – it's really interesting because usually I can tell you, like, I know where I was when Sandy Hook happened, and I'm like, where was I? Where – why don't I know exactly where I was? But what I do know is that first. I heard of Uvalde and I was like, okay, wait. What just happened? South Texas? Then I'm like an hour away from the US Mexico border. Que paso? Um, and then when we at Latino USA did, uh, basically an instant, one hour a week after, that's when I realized that there was a history in Uvalde that was much bigger than just this massacre. And then I was like, oh my God, I, I just, I need to go deeper here.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: I mean, boy did you ever, right. I mean, you really have spent a lot of time there now. I, so the moment that you texted me, you just said we have to talk. What were you envisioning in the very first place about Frontline making a documentary? What was your original inspiration around that?
MARIA HINOJOSA: It's interesting, Raney because, you know, I'm, I'm coming across kind of phenomenal stories every week. Right? And I'm not always texting you and saying, we need to talk and we need to, we need to talk about this story. And so I'm kind of like, why did I feel so I, I was like, it has to be a Frontline. I'm just like, why? And I think because I understood that telling this story was gonna take a lot of resources. And so I understood like something very deep in me understood you have to go hardcore, it's gotta be Frontline. And I think that editorially, I also understood like, look, Maria, you are so close to this. This story is so close to you as a journalist, as as a mom, as you know, as everything. Um, and I was like, it's gonna be good to have that, that editorial side of Frontline that is gonna say yes and we gotta talk about this. Which is, I mean, to be honest with you, Raney, I did not expect to be doing a documentary about gun violence at this point in my life. I just, you know, I covered the Columbine shooting. So, um, and that's where we ended up going in our reporting, and I think that's why people are connecting with it because it's not only the story of Uvalde, but it's also– you clearly saw, right? It's the Texas politics and um, and Texas is the state with the second highest number of massacres and mass shootings in our country. So it's something that is really, I'm sorry to say, literally in their face every single day.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: It is so incredible that you are able to talk to, you know, some of the, the people who experienced this, but also have a chance to sit down with the Texas Tribune. And I, I think that's one thing that I wanted to talk to you about is like, what about the Texas Tribune, their investigative work around the police response to the shooting? Um, and of course you sit down with the reporter, Zach Despart, right? And you review some of the footage. Tell me about that time that you're sitting with him and what it was like to talk to him about that.
MARIA HINOJOSA: So first I wanna say Zach was very understanding about what we were gonna see. We capture that moment actually in our film when he says, look, I'm just letting you know you're gonna hear gunfire now be he warned us, right? He was like, this is what's gonna happen. So that we were prepared. But the first thing that I think is so horrific is when you're like, geez, oh my God, these um, law enforcement officers are here. We hear the gunfire and it's like, there are kids. They're, they're 10 year old, 11 year old kids. Like, I'm watching this on a screen and I'm freaking out. I'm like, you know, the sound of the gunfire. Because the sound of um, these AR type weapons is a very different sound than other guns.
Raney Aronson: You, you talk about that a lot in the film, the, um, the details about the ferocity of it, the purpose of that gun in the first place. So can you talk to me about like, what were you hearing and why is it so deadly? Because I think that's something that people know, but then when you hear Zach talk about it and later in the film when you hear the pediatrician talk about it, those are moments that just stop you in your tracks about the ferocity of that.
MARIA HINOJOSA: I think the thing that stood out is a moment when they understand what kind of weapon this person has. And this is a moment that basically captures for us why and when the police freeze and why they freeze. Well, what Zach says, and later we have this also in our, in our documentary, right? They freeze because the AR can shoot through normal police armor. And honestly, Raney, that needed to be a headline in and of itself, which is these assault weapons will shoot through regular police armor.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: No, that's a big, that was a big revelation. And you know, even having done reporting on this and I, it, that for whatever reason really woke me up to, it's not as simple as they didn't go into the room. Right. Even though that is the protocol, as Zach explains since Columbine. So, Maria, I want to shift gears to Caitlyne and I have to say, like, one of the, my favorite moments was when you texted me and said like, I have met an angel, like literally – Someone who you felt was going to be an amazing ambassador and someone that could help us understand from a kid's perspective.
MARIA HINOJOSA: You know, I, um, I don't know if I realized before I was going down exactly the kind of person that I was gonna meet, because the truth is, is that, I have met a lot of people in my life. I have never met anyone like Caitlyne Gonzalez, ever. The first thing we did was to hang out with Caitlyne without cameras at a local pizza place. She was hilarious. So she's running around the pizza place. Laughing, joking, putting on a fake mustache. And I was like, what? Then the next day we went back with our cameras and um, we were in Caitlyne's bedroom trying to have a conversation. And Caitlyne shut down. Entirely, shut down. I will put this on my top 10 most difficult interviews that Maria Hinojosa has ever been through was the first conversation with Caitlyne, where it wasn't just, I'm 10 years old and I don't want to talk to you, I wanna play with, you know, this. It was like, I don't want to talk to you. And we have such a smart team, and Caitlyne's mom was there and it was like, let's get out of the bedroom. We went out to the back and that's when she and I have this transformational moment of doing art therapy together. And then everything changed. And that was just, you know, the first day.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: One of the things about Caitlyne that struck me so deeply was her ability to articulate that, like she should also just not be there. So it was one of those moments that just, you know, as a person, a human on the planet breaks your heart when she's telling the crowd on the steps of the State House what she witnessed
Caitlyne Gonzales: Good afternoon. On May 24th, everything changed…
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: and just saying in the plainest of words like, I shouldn't be here.
Caitlyne Gonzales: I shouldn’t have to be here speaking. I’m only 10 years old, but I am because my friends have no voice no more.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: You are watching her say that in real life, right? You were there. What are you feeling when you're watching her speak to a crowd? So outside of the sort of smaller, you know, environment of talking to you one-on-one.
MARIA HINOJOSA: I mean, she had that crowd of hundreds of people, you know, activists, some trained activists, politicians, uh, she had them holding onto every single word of her speech, just witnessing it was very powerful. But Caitlyne, I mean, since the documentary aired, I'm kind of like, I keep on having these images of like Caitlyne in her home, in her bedroom, you know, playing, you know, dancing, singing, doing TikToks and all of this. And then I'm like, and does she realize what kind of an international hero this little girl has become? And I'm like, I think she knows it. And also, she's 11 years old and so I haven't, I don't think I sent this to you, but like my favorite photograph cuz now she follows me on Instagram. Now I follow her. I was waiting until after the documentary and she, you know, took a picture of a moment in the documentary where you see my bare feet. I'm at home, I'm reading the document, and she like circled my bare feet and she was like, your feet smell. Why is this in the documentary? And I'm like, you're this little girl who's speaking, you know, truth to power, et cetera, and you're just a kid. And that's what I love about her.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: So, I was hoping you could tell us a bit about the Uvalde history. And how that also intersected with Caitlyne, which is literally one of my favorite parts of the film, is when Caitlyne's watching footage of the protest from decades earlier.
MARIA HINOJOSA: In 1970, basically, um, As part of the creation of the modern Chicano/Chicana movement Uvalde rises up. Students walk out for what is one of the longest student walkouts in American history. Not Texas history, not South Texas history, American history, six weeks.. Even though Uvalde is an hour away from the US Mexico border, it is now a majority Latino/Latina town, uh, where I witnessed a lot of people speaking Spanish, right, in 2023. But in the year 1970 if you were caught speaking Spanish in the school, you would be paddled. And the paddling took the form of, um, a wet ruler slapping the back of a six year old girl's calf. It was like a, it was like torture for kids and I think that explains why they rise up. It was, uh, the civil rights era, you know, this is 1970, and um, and, so it was a surprise when my producer said, hey, we found this guy named Lalo Castillo, and he was around in 1970 and he's working with the next generation of activists that are being born from this tragedy, like Caitlyne Gonzalez. And it was like, what? And he was like, and then when I spoke with um, Lalo, and he was like, well, I recorded everything. His role, he decided, was to document everything, and that's the video footage that he shared with us, which makes our film so unique and so compelling And then he made the decision I want. I want Caitlyne to see this. And Caitlyne's, you know, just Caitlyne.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: No kidding! I didn’t know that.
MARIA HINOJOSA:Yes, I know. And Caitlyne just kind of looking at this and just like, wow, they did this. And so I, you know,
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: And then the moment she says they did it in the rain, they protested in the… It's just so, it's just wonderful.
LALO CASTILLO: Those are students. They’re coming out of class.
CAITLYNE GONZALES: Wait! There’s my school!
CAITLYNE GONZALES: How long did it last?
LALO CASTILLO: The walkout lasted six weeks.
I think that moment, that generational moment that you're able to capture is, is so special. And it's actually one of the reasons we said yes to the film was the sense that you were gonna have this kind of longitudinal look at a place that people really didn't know in a, in a deep sense, right? You have a moment in which, you know, they're all together talking about it. You turn to Caitlyne, you ask her, how does this feel? How did you feel?
MARIA HINOJOSA: Wow. Wow. Um, how did I feel? Um, I'm not gonna get emotional, but I, I mean it, I, I felt like I was witnessing history. I was like, this is what it looks like. In fact, it's a, it's a room. It was cold, it was late in the evening. Everybody would've rather have been at home. And yet, because of their trauma and because of how they're choosing to respond by using this trauma to demand accountability, um, and to talk about the history, of this is what activism looks like.
And that's why when I turned to Caitlyne, cuz honestly at some point, I mean the meeting went on for a while as meetings do, and she was kind of falling asleep and then she perked up again. Right? And she perked up. And that's when I said to her, so how are you feeling? And she's like, oh my God they're using their voice just like I am. I'm, I'm gonna savor watching what, what happens with Caitlyne, because as she and her mother and her father have said, this event of the massacre changed their lives and made their lives hell. And they're kind of committed to making the lives of politicians who stand in the way of some basic gun safety, they're like, we're gonna make their lives hell.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Well, I mean, I, I was gonna actually ask you next about the Texas legislature, um, and the debate that you followed about the one particular issue, which is raising the legal age to purchase certain weapons, including the AR-15-style weapons, right in Texas from 18 to 21. So, tell me about that journey and who you spoke to along the way.
MARIA HINOJOSA: One of the things that I'm really proud about our film, Raney, is that savvy journalists, um, who have listened, who have watched the film, have said that they suddenly found themselves deeply invested in the drama and the story of the Texas legislature. And there is drama because how can I simplify it? The legislature only meets every two years. So it does not feel like one of those states where kind of like politics is happening all the time. Like, you know, there's politics and that's why you always have to hear about, we're requesting for a special session of the legislature because they only meet every two years. So, um, my first visit to the Capitol for this film is when I meet, um, the state, uh, Senator Roland Gutierrez, and, Raney, I have interviewed a lot of politicians in my life about very traumatic things and never once has one broken down and cried the way State Senator Roland Gutierrez did in front of me as he spoke about the Uvalde families. And then, I think that, the other thing that struck me was one, his kind of commitment like this, um, you know, David and Goliath battle of like, we're just gonna try to raise the age to purchase an assault weapon from 18 to 21. And then I think, I know that I will never forget the experience of being in that capitol building for over 13 hours straight. We did not leave the building for 13 hours. Actually, I did leave to go do a walking shot, but then we came back, I mean, when we, when this happened was about 9:30. Um, and that was when they decided to begin to take testimony from the families. But they were there until, you know, one o'clock in the morning.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Hmm. Well you do have a moment in the film and you're like, this is going to be a long day. And you do get the sense of the, the length of it. They finally get to speak. You know, they're very emotional, obviously. Um, and I, I know you also spoke to a couple of people who are against the, um, legislation. Tell me about those interviews and what their reasoning is.
MARIA HINOJOSA: There was this gentleman, a younger man in his forties, you know, very well put together. Uh, and the second I saw him and I realized he represents the gun owners of America of Texas, I was like, that's our guy. And we had a, a, a long conversation where he says, all you, all you can do is basically arm teachers because you cannot expect, um, and wait for law enforcement to do anything. And you're kind of like, well, he. I mean, we did see law enforcement not doing anything, so he's like, so teachers have to be able to take things into their own hands. Of course. It's just like, is there any in between? Is there anything he's like, basically, no. And it's just like, okay, wow. All right. Hmm. And how do you, you know, how do you kind of find common ground there? How do you find a place? And I think that's why at the end of our documentary, it's just like you are witnessing the greatest divisions in our country right here. This is what it looks like. And this is in fact what it looks like.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Right. And it's important, you know, from my perspective, you know, as the editor of Frontline, it's important that you had those conversations because that point of view is really well represented in the debate. So you sat down with, uh, Representative Clardy. I thought that interview was really quite, um, edifying. What did he tell you? And did it surprise you?
MARIA HINOJOSA: Well, I was very thankful when a Republican member of the legislature agreed to speak with us. We had not been having much luck. Representative Clardy is, uh, super personable. While he did say, look, it's not gonna happen. I'm not gonna vote to raise the age from 18 to 21 to legally purchase, um, an assault weapon. Uh, he said, I'm not gonna do it now. Cuz I did ask him point blank, he said, but I'm gonna go back to my constituents and I'm gonna have a conversation. And I think maybe, maybe there could be some movement for me next time. This is huge. Um, because his words actually were like, it used to be that with mass shootings in Texas, you know, oh, it happened there far, far, far away from us. Or it happened in that town. Far, far, far. It happened in El Paso. Far, far, far. And he said, increasingly in every part of the state, in every kind of community, you have people who are being touched by gun violence by mass shootings. And he says, and so I think that, you know, he said it is, it's the definition of insanity is to not, you know, is to do the same thing and expect things to change. And so I think he's like, something's gonna change. What it comes down to is deeply political. I'm sorry to be so kind of cynical about it. But I, I feel like Uvalde, it is not the tipping point, but it is, it is beginning something of what I feel is like a tipping point.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: We say at the very end the people, the families of Uvalde will have to wait two years. What is your takeaway?
MARIA HINOJOSA: I guess my takeaway and the way I'm talking about Uvalde with friends and family and colleagues is to say it's not what you think. You know, you may think that Uvalde is a town that is shrouded by, you know, sadness and depression. Well, you know, Uvalde is transforming things. They're transforming the narrative. They're transforming the way a community reacts to this. You know? So I'll talk about the cemetery and people are like, you wanna talk about the cemetery in Uvalde? And I'll say, it is the most beautiful cemetery I've ever seen in my life, and I've been to many cemeteries. It is, as we say, El Dia de los Muertos, it is the day of the dead in that cemetery. 365, 24-7. Caitlyne goes to hang out with her best friend Jackie Cazares and all of her little friends who have cemetery plots all around there. And she goes there to dance and to listen to music and to talk to her, in our case, to bring incense to her and sparklers. Um and right as we're getting ready to leave next to the plot of Jackie Cazares, the family of another little girl arrived with two puppies to bring to their little girls' plot to show them that for her birthday, they bought her two little puppies.So Uvalde for me is about, about love and hope and joy and um, and a lot of smiles and, you know, and now I'm in touch with, Caitlyne, right? And so she sends me silly videos, and I'm just trying to figure out how am I gonna get back down there? How, what am I gonna do next? How am I gonna stay in touch? And, um, those are the memories that I have of Uvalde, of a lot of hope.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Well, you're a pleasure to have worked with. Your work is extraordinary. Thank you for being on the Dispatch and you know, for bringing the story to Frontline the way that you did.
MARIA HINOJOSA: And thank you Raney for being such a great partner. And we really wanna thank the Texas Tribune for, for being great partners to Futuro Media and Futuro Investigates.
RANEY ARONSON-RATH: Thanks to Maria Hinojosa for joining us on the Dispatch. To watch After Uvalde: Guns, Grief, and Texas Politics, head to FRONTLINE dot org, FRONTLINE’s YouTube Channel, or the PBS Video App.
