Mike Nichols

Speaker You know, I’ve known him so long. I don’t remember how we met. I must’ve met him through Lorne Michaels. All I can imagine. And it was certainly when we were very young. And that’s all I know. And he was always David and he was always smart and. And we even worked together in those early days. He produced a play that I directed called Social Security. We had a terrible fight. I’d had a little heart thing. And we were fighting about something in the contract that I hadn’t known. Was there somebody that people had? Then he, David, had capping rights when there was a movie offer and I never knew it. And so I was out of town with a play and he was on the phone and we were yelling and I said, David, I’m not sure I should do this. And he said, my health is just as important as yours. And I thought, oh, wow, he’s really good at this because I would have I had a Jewish mother like all Jews and and I I would have backed off. Not for a moment. Nothing backed off, David. He was very strong and he was very smart. And we had a few very nice adventures, like when he and and Lorne came out to a horse auction, I had I had a ranch in Santa Barbara and they came out to the auction and then we had record. They stayed at Santa Cedro and I had breakfast with them. And David said, Does I have to find something? I have a movie contract with Michael Jackson. Does either of you have an idea?

Speaker I said, it’s funny you say that because I actually do have an idea that would fit for him if you wanted it, which is I my idea is it came out of saying no to some other idea. It’s about grocery delivery boy who’s friends with the old Jewish comic to whom he delivers groceries and they kid around and they’re very fond of each other. And when they old comic dies, the kid is asked to be one of the people speaking at his funeral. And he does and kills big, big laughs. And Steve Martin in a white suit comes up to him afterwards and says, you’re really, really talented. I’d love to sign you for my agency. In fact, why don’t we go to the agency now and they go into this elevator and he notices that the elevator is going very far, but it’s not going off. It’s going down and it’s the devil. And Steve Martin signs him to a contract. And David said, oh, that’s a great idea. But he’d never work because he’s a Seventh Day Adventist and he would never deal with the devil. So then we had talks and we had another idea.

Speaker And David said, well, you come to what’s the name of that hotel that Queen of Mean had. Right in Grand Central Station, apparently the Helmsley. Right. So we went to see Michael at the Helmsley and the suite.

Speaker I didn’t know it existed was like a three story living room and all that. And he came out. He is very sweet and very nice. And we chatted and he said, So what’s the idea? And David said, Mike, why don’t you start? And I said, well, this is a little embarrassing.

Speaker But just at the moment, I can’t remember as maybe maybe Lorne, you could tell it. And he said, well, I embarrassed to say I can’t remember it either. And we both turned to David. And David said, I’ll remember. And Michael Jackson said, it is are we on Candid Camera? And that was the one time I met Michael and the one who asked me a favor but didn’t turn out all that well.

Speaker But then the David of now is is pretty much a whole not new but additional person. I think that there were so many things in him that came out as he changed and changed, evolved.

Speaker I think none of us. No one I know, with the possible exception of Elaine May, partly because we’ve known each other literally 50 years, which is strange feeling. Has changed so much while remaining the same. Yes, I think that David, for the years that we were friends, was always highly intelligent and quick and aggressive and resourceful. God knows, resourceful. I think that the the incident in his life, which was more than an incident, which was doctors misinforming him that he was going to die. I think that changed him radically to be resigned to dying, to have given away everything to where you wanted it to go. And then it was all a false alarm. It wasn’t true. That was pretty well life changing for want of a better word. And I think that the the inner David began in a new way then. And that that inner David, who has taken over, became all of David, the generosity, the calm, the no longer aggressive, the genius in that he simply knows about everything. And he, in terms of business or art to Richard now completely makes. So you don’t know which is which. That in art stret stroke business, he’d he recognizes value quality instantly in everything. It’s not confined to music or movies or painting or architecture. It’s in everything.

Speaker And he has I mean, one of the reasons he’s a billionaire is that he knew what artists to sign when he was. That was his job. He knew what movies to do. And that was his job. He knew what paintings to buy when he wanted stuff to put on his walls. He knew what stocks to buy. Just goes on and on and on.

Speaker But the aggression that goes with that.

Speaker It’s gone because, among other things, because he’s happy. David is in love and he’s happy.

Speaker And his generosity, which was always there, is as always hidden because you sort of have to. There’s this terrible book that made it into a even more terrible movie, you magnificent obsession.

Speaker Well, there was a secret that there was a gag and magnificent obsession, which happens to be the great gag. Somebody asked, is it? Of course, they didn’t do it. The movie that the movie was so much worse than the book that is not worth thinking about. But the man’s secret. Well, when someone asks him what is the secret of your power? And he says, oh, it was a woman asking. He says, I’ve actually never told anybody. And I will tell you because I want to help you, but you must swear never to tell anyone else. The secret is very easy. The secret is to do things for other people and never tell anyone and never let them tell anyone. And that’s David. It’s not that he doesn’t have his name on hospitals and so forth of theaters. That’s another way of helping one. Raising money and so forth. It’s that there are all the things that nobody knows about. And all the people that nobody knows about it. And I think they give him the spiritual power that is implied in the after all, not so crappy, magnificent obsession because it contains that idea.

Speaker The only good thing about it. Are some of the worst errors.

Speaker Well, I like you. I think we all spiritual connection you we’re talking about.

Speaker I did not meet his mother ever. But we’ve spent ultimately weeks talk about each of our brothers. He loved his mother inordinately. And Lo Lo loved the good side. And I think in many ways she strengthened him and gave him some of what he has. It took me forever to figure out the good part of my mother. The bad part, having been done by Elaine and Elaine and I may Elaine May and I had the same mother so that when we did our mothers scatch, each of us was able to say, well, that was her mother. She’d say that was his mother. And then each mother would say, too bad they did not recognize themselves. But unfortunately, we didn’t recognize them either. It took me. Thank God. Two years before my mother died, I began to figure out that it was possible to see it from other points of view than my own.

Speaker And to be the son I should have been all along.

Speaker And I think David was a good son, which is a which is already an enormously freeing thing, you know. Guilt. Guilt is stronger than happiness.

Speaker And if you can’t unwind it, you can’t be happy.

Speaker And I think, David, one of the many unusual things about him, he is he has no guilt. He’s not never mind crippled. He’s not slowed down by guilt. Not for a moment. But I think part of that is that he’s caught up. I think, like all of us, he had people that he’s not thrilled with his own behavior with. He did what he could afterwards, but he doesn’t. He doesn’t suffer guilt and he doesn’t suffer. Can we stop him? I’m sorry.

Speaker We do have some extras. I’ll just give you a box of these and those. Okay. I think. I think I’ll write.

Speaker You’re scared. I’m all right. I have to be it set him up so at 1:00. We’ll see you and I have no makeup on. I can go right like this.

Speaker You look handsome as can be. God knows they’ll be so disappointed. Do you like spot where you don’t get to do your thing?

Speaker He’s doing his turn. He did it the minute you walked in the door. It’s you interesting that you talk about.

Speaker Has no deal. I really wasn’t sure that you get a lot of different things. He was young and Evan’s mother was to show up things that people would look at here and say, that’s the explanation. But I think he got a lot of good things. And I was.

Speaker You’re saying that before she was gone. I think he became a good son. I think that he is too smart and too well analyzed and not to be on his own side. I think that’s one of the main things about David, is that he he can admire and love people and. Help them and all the different ways in which he does and work shoulder to shoulder with them and never stop being on his own side, which is that both the healthiest and the most useful thing we can do. Nobody likes people who don’t like themselves. And and David is not crazy about himself because that would be for any of us also an error. But he thinks he’s OK.

Speaker And I owe all my friends.

Speaker I have some friends who are sort of geniuses. I mean, great writers. The two greatest writers I know, Stafford and Tony Kushner, are masters of not regarding themselves. It’s a beautiful and useful thing to watch. Tom just won’t look ever. He has nothing to say on the subject. He doesn’t know anything about it. Tony Luxon has. Well, we won’t think about that. I’m just so late with it and I don’t know if I can finish it. He keeps himself in a state of of worry and and not being good enough because he won’t look either. They’re number one. Each of them is number one, but they’re both geniuses and great artists and they’re smart enough to know that it was never luck.

Speaker But David trumps that. He just doesn’t work at all. It doesn’t even come up.

Speaker He’s looking at somebody else and somebody else. And somebody else. And somebody else. And somebody else. And somebody else starts forcings. Now, wait. Let’s just one minute. No, here I am. I’m here, too. And that’s it. And he in. Not looking. And in surrounding himself with people who have also come along and don’t have a lot of neuroses and problems and are enjoying their lives. He has a wonderful life, which he has earned and deserves.

Speaker And he’s here generations, a generation apart, to share some similar backgrounds. How much do you think about that? How much of that background has affected him? His book, Outliers.

Speaker Well, where is it? Well, the legend of David. That’s true. You know, in the mailroom at William Morris. It it is the Gladwell thesis that it was all there in front of him, contract after contract after contract. And I’ve often been on movies with with somebodies son as a as a P.A. because that’s the only job you can get somebody’s son. And I’ve always been interested that all around them are very interesting crafts. There’s the sound as the camera. There’s the actor. There’s the music. There’s the script. But they don’t see or hear what’s going on. It’s nobody’s fault. It’s nothing wrong with them. But everything is coded. It’s very hard to see anything as it is in a mail room. I worked for the post office in Chicago. I just saw, you know, Skokie goes in this box and David saw the opportunity to learn about showbiz contracts, which are, of course, the heart of showbiz because they’re about money and power. And he jumped on his opportunity. I think that’s the thing that characterizes him, and that’s a clue to why he knows as much about, you know, modern painting as anyone and as he’s proven and about music and about movies and so forth. It’s that he he has that. I think the most enviable thing maybe is excellent study habits. I see it at home. I see my wife, who has excellent study habits. And I always think, hey, what could I do if I could study like this? But I can’t. You know, I do everything and it’s sort of messy. I can’t read my notes. I don’t. Where are they? I didn’t make enough of them. And I think David in her private organization is stunning in the sense of study habits and what he brings from reading something, from looking at something. Now, background, you could say it has to do with the European background. You can say, you know, Jews revere learning and all that. You know, we are who we are. We are our genes. But almost all cultures have had, I should say, reverence for knowledge that we could use a little more now.

Speaker And David exemplifies it, but he transcends it because he hasn’t stopped.

Speaker Scholars usually rest on their specialty and then they pedal their specialty. And then they there’s another scholar whose specialty conflicts with their southern finished the twilight of their scholarship, arguing with the other expert than there are two points of view and so forth. He doesn’t do any of that. He just learns more and more when he can and uses it. And it is effective.

Speaker Do you think that he or maybe he just kept this beautiful phrase?

Speaker Where does that come from?

Speaker Was a big question. Well, think about David. Of course, it’s a beautiful phrase. Baby used. What is it? He has the captain, captain of industry with the soul of an artist on the nose. It’s true. And I think that the confusing thing about David, with all these changes and with all this growth and with all this learning and wisdom, is that he sounds just like he used to sound. He sounds like a, you know, a New York Jew who is in show biz a little bit. Nothing over the top, but just a little bit like all of us. Since he he never sounds ex cathedra or like a big deal, anything. It it’s hard to sometimes to remember the name, to remember the things he’s brought to the culture. Even something as simple as his column with Maureen Dowd at a crucial. Always he knows the timing. A blow for Obama. One is that the Clintons are liars. And it resounded. It was. It was dropped. It was a little pin dropped at a very silent moment. And everybody said, well. That’s true. I mean, everybody’s is liars, all politicians are liars. But how much and when and who and so forth. The moment in which he said that particular phrase, you thought several things. You thought.

Speaker Wow. He has no one he doesn’t have to be afraid of anything or anyone. You thought?

Speaker It’s true. You thought you could really say that about any politician. Let’s be fair here. And then you thought. But it’s made a difference. You can feel it. You can feel that it made a difference. Now, you know, it didn’t win Obama. The election is just one of a million things that went into the pot. But I think David does that in many areas. Certainly movies and music has done it, continues to do it. And when you look at the guys, my son is in the business, so I know a little more about it. There, guys, we don’t even know the names of who are called the right musicians long ago and are billionaires now just quietly, happily living, not doing any. We don’t see them. But but huge fortunes were made out of taste, taste and good advice and sticking with people and doing what’s best for them and letting them have themselves not owning anybody, not, you know, not doing this sort of thing. That’s when the beginning of the music business, when it was almost you had to give up your soul in order to get a contract.

Speaker No, no more of that.

Speaker But David is the one of those guys who went on to so many other things, show it. Everybody knows about it.

Speaker You know, I probably talk to friends about Laura Nyro, who was his first artist. Incredibly. And then she dealt a blow to him by not signing with his label, which was extremely hurtful. Sandy Galen’s Gallet said he never met. He doesn’t make the same mistake twice. So we never lose that emotion involved after that.

Speaker But he stuck by his art. No question about it. There’s something about him today that I’m having, and I’m feeling like he is having a hard time getting in touch with that person that he was then that, you know, that the day that that was 300 percent devoted toward Hero and his art is after that won’t do anything for the fight with him would cry and he would hear their music. Where where is that?

Speaker Well, the guy you describe as a young guy, we all had a version of that. We all had boundless energy over this. Play this recording artist, this movie, and we had something else which is gone, which we had lots of time, lots of time to work on those things. And movie you could prepare for a year. An artist, you could spend dinners and tours and everybody had time and everybody was obsessed. That was doing well. It was part of doing well to be obsessed. Is there anything I forgot? Let’s go over it again. I think that part of growing up and growing older is that abates that obsession abates sort of mistake, that everybody’s earliest stuff is their best stuff. It’s not it’s not a sort of genetic necessity. It’s just that after awhile you think what are so excited about?

Speaker You know, once you’ve thought that something changes.

Speaker Now, interestingly, David isn’t in a category of not the prime, not the author, not the performer. So for him to relax was only a good thing because it meant he couldn’t be hurt by someone signing with someone else. It meant that his feelings were in where they belonged. Not so much in what is, after all, business. And he he did the thing that you see very, very rarely. You begin to see it now in those rich guys. But it’s still a very unusual and that is relaxation. He’s very relaxed, after all. To say sell everything I want to be in cash. How long does that take? And it doesn’t take a lot of breast beating or anything. Just. I think it’s time for that. And I think the investment in friendship and in a life which continually interests you because of the things that other people are bringing into your life and you into theirs. I think that’s a lot of that is where David’s passion has gone.

Speaker And the very.

Speaker The very passion that would get him the recording artist that he wanted might in this case. Yes. Get him the shaft for the boat that he wants. And and what’s wrong with it?

Speaker You know, there there’s no divine rich as there seems to be for artists.

Speaker Never give up. Never give in. Why not? What’s the difference? And that. Why not. Is one of the things that makes him both unique and forever a joy.

Speaker Has he ever about his caucus. He’s proud of. Never.

Speaker David doesn’t grade himself. He doesn’t assess himself. He doesn’t give himself a little gold stars. He doesn’t give himself demerits for having missed out on something. He looks the other way. And that in itself is a great example is the thing to do. What’s a year? Who cares? What difference does it make? What’s for dinner?

Speaker Did he talk to you about.

Speaker Talk to me about starting DreamWorks. No, he didn’t. We weren’t that close at that moment in both our lives. One and two, I think. And you have to check this with David because it’s an impression. And I could be very wrong. I think that he backed into DreamWorks, fighting all the way, trying to get out almost at the beginning right away. He didn’t want to he didn’t want to have a studio. He didn’t want to do it. He wanted to be sure the other two guys were OK. He stayed much longer than he wanted to because he wanted to be sure Steven landed in a good, proper place, the place that he deserved. But he never I don’t think he enjoyed it as much as he might have. And I the one thing I do know is he was thrilled to be out. Thrilled to be his own. And not for once, not responsible for hundreds and thousands of others. Well, I think David is. David has enormous discipline, strength and the ability to become relentless. You know, and it’s great when he’s relentless on your behalf. It’s not quite so great when he’s relentless and disagrees with you. But I have to say, from my personal experience, from the time that we worked on that play, I think he’s changed. Absolutely. I’ve changed. But he’s changed really a lot. I have not seen him in his legendary relentlessness for years and years and years. And I mean, one of the huge studio deals that came about, I, I happen to know that the guy who sold him, I think it was his whole studio or a half studio or the music section. I don’t even remember what it was he was selling, except that that the guy said he was the son of who said, well, you’re you’re an honest man. Why don’t you propose a deal that that by that point, he was also considered wise and fair. Was he fair? No, I. I think that he knows how to look out for himself. Nobody’s going to take advantage of you. But I think that’s doing everybody a favor, too, because you sort of don’t like it when you’re taking advantage of somebody that leads to more trouble than he actually does not work well. I only remember that he wasn’t happy with all that with the studios and his business he was doing until he went back to being his own man, making his own decisions. I think he’s early on. It was made for that. The terrible thing about Hollywood and the studios and all that is, I mean, you go all around the world and you say you’re running this hotel and this is what you think. But we’re so used to that. But in the studio, it’s really shocking. I think, oh, my God. You know that the children are running the nursery. And for David, who knows how to do it? It must it must be, at very best, annoying to see a lot of people who don’t know their job and don’t know what the job is. And he knows his job well.

Speaker He had a lot of clashes there. Nothing that doesn’t seem for one second. Where does that where does that? I mean, everybody has a moment to it. It doesn’t seem to have did it?

Speaker I think he does. I first of all, I think no sane person doesn’t have a moment of self-doubt. But I also think that it’s impossible to grow. And I mean, there’s only one secret of surviving is to become more and more generous. People don’t do that pretty much die. And I think that in order to make sure that whatever is happening to you, your generosity is increasing. I think that’s impossible without moments of self-doubt. I think it’s impossible to fit so well with other people and be so considerate and be so loving without moments of self-doubt. In fact, for all of us who are, you know, I can’t do that awful finger thing. But in quotes, success says self-doubt becomes an increasingly valuable commodity because it’s finally the thing that keeps you from being. That that if you don’t doubt yourself, you can be sure others will. And and you’re not checking your own deportment behavior in relation to other people. And in all those things, I think David excels. I think that he is still like I hope all of us do. But David is still learning. He’s not finished. He’s not closed up and perfect just because there’s all that dough. He’s still growing. He’s still learning.

Speaker He’s still letting things go, which, you know, certainly at my age. But even at his age is is a way you drop ballast. You just lighten the load and drop it and drop it and drop it. I did. Do I need this? Do I need that? Do I really need to return calls from strangers to whatever it is and you can’t drop it fast enough?

Speaker And I think that, David, you could never say he has no self doubt because he would be a monster. I mean, I can mention other billionaires who clearly have no self doubt, and it works very nicely for them. But I don’t really want to have dinner with them. I mean, they all have dinner with each other and forgive everything.

Speaker I mean, billionaires love billionaires, but the rest of us don’t have to. I’ll take David every time. Yes. David, what do you think?

Speaker I think he loves to really loves to be with Jeremy. He loves to be on the boat. He loves to be with the people he loves. He loves groups of the people. He loves everybody doing just what they want.

Speaker He loves to be in touch. He loves to be connected to his giant family of beloved and loving friends. I think he loves to do nothing. He loves him and Jeremy to be alone in large spaces.

Speaker And small spaces. And I think that he.

Speaker Loves owning his future and not owing it to a corporate plan or entity of any kind except an entity of two.

Speaker You were. Kind of a theme running through your work. It’s kind of a. Ironic here.

Speaker Oh, yeah. I mean, you talk politics, the theme of the day here.

Speaker Yes. Yes, he is. We tell each other whatever interests us at the moment, whatever is happening at the moment.

Speaker We we love funny stuff and good jokes. And we love people who are funny and we are funny some of the time. And the whole buck.

Speaker Henry once said the following thing. We were working on something and I was someone I knew, said I just hate gossip. And he said, What does that mean?

Speaker He said, gossip is about people. If you had gossip, you had people send me wrong with gossip. It’s how you use it. Everybody’s interested in people or rather everybody in our business is interested in people because that’s our business. There’s nothing wrong with it. You can get nasty and you can tell lies. That’s a whole different thing.

Speaker But I think David loves people and loves contact with people and stories about people and jokes about people and with people. And you don’t. I’ve never heard, David, even when we’re talking about one or two really horrific people that we run across and work. I don’t hear him putting people down or getting any pleasure out of it or pleasure out of anybody else putting people that know he’s.

Speaker He’s interested everything that’s happening in the world, he’s interested in the lives of his friends.

Speaker And I think he’s interested in change.

Speaker Genuine change, you know, because the world is changing so fast, possibly ending. But whatever it’s doing, he’s very interested.

Speaker Did he talk to you?

Speaker Yes. So long ago now. I think he talked more to me about more than about The New York Times, talked about the L.A. Times at that point. I met Sam Zell at his house at all. I think what he said was that it would be nice to have a good newspaper again in this country. And here were the two that were best situated to be that. And that he would like to have something to do with that happening. He never for a minute thought it was a way to make money. He knew was where to lose money. He didn’t think. I’ve always thought a newspaper should be. No, he just thought it would be. It would maybe feel good to enable one last good newspaper before they all go into, you know, some version of being on the net. Completely. That was all it was.

Speaker Easy and safe. Free press. Was going to.

Speaker That was very much his impulse that he thought we needed a great newspaper for all the reasons that you needed for her.

Speaker And that it would be a check on.

Speaker In government and all the things that journalism used to make possible or prevent both. And then he saw that everything was just disintegrating so fast. There was no way to get in there.

Speaker I’m so worried. Oh, it’s terrifying. It really does.

Speaker Well, that they were just baby Russia, just a little bit of that Broadway play.

Speaker What’s it like? I mean, when he was young, that was really well, to my knowledge.

Speaker David is a Broadway producer, is invisible and inaudible. He does not come and say, for God sake, lose the earrings and all that producer’s stuff. He doesn’t do any of that. He doesn’t have ideas. He doesn’t he doesn’t think he can do it. He wants to back the people that he knows can do it and that he agrees with. And then he stays out of the way. I mean, that there’s only one crime. I mean, producers are mostly I don’t know what they do. But I do know what they mustn’t do, which is try to think and why don’t you do this and why don’t you try. Her being angry and all that stuff, you think, oh, God, it’s all over. We’ll do some other show next year. But it’s very rare now. It used to be there used to be all these. I can’t help myself creative producers, but there’s no such thing. And given that, David, is it ideal? He’s the dream. You just hear he’s connected. He’s not there as a Broadway producer. It is my strong impression that he simply isn’t there. He’s one of the people backing the show.

Speaker Why do you think he’s.

Speaker I think I see I would be hard for him to stay. Stay away because he loves it all so much. What’s a couple of other really funny stories about David that you’d like to. Some things.

Speaker I’m not asking that you think should be said in this film. So you don’t really, really, really well. Or revealing.

Speaker Something that people are fascinated with. Why are people so fascinated? I think because he’s so well, tenuously. Gentle and powerful, I think, because he he really still controls Kadal Art. But you don’t hear any rattling, even a tiny dagger, never mind a sword. And I think he’s interesting because he’s interesting. Go talk to Rupert Murdoch and come back and ask me why. It is interesting. I can. You don’t use that promise. But that’s my point, is that there are people in David’s position that that you would plead to be allowed to leave. You know, a cup of tea with David remains interesting because he remains interested in people in the world in hope, which is shrinking. But there. And.

Speaker I think that they’re more interested in other people, you are the more interesting you are, and I think that that’s David. I think I told my only funny story with a Michael Jackson one.

Speaker No, I think he doesn’t trust me.

Speaker I have no idea. No, I do.

Speaker I wrote it on the beach. He has to swim.

Speaker I never saw him swimming. I’m not such a big swimmer myself. Sorry. I don’t know. Ask him.

Speaker Have. What did you say? What do you say? Oh, I think I just told him that Nora told us he had a pulse in the water. Wow. Sometimes I do. Did you say that?

Speaker He said, go catch you. You know, take that generally.

Speaker I already just anything about his advice here. The answer is advice, given this is not just a.

Speaker I have to say, I can’t talk about that because he has advised my wife and me. For want of a better word, contracts. And I just I just think that’s too personal.

Speaker Yes. May just have sort of one last question. David’s, there’s nothing. And David’s background. The way.

Speaker Really. That would in any way have prepared him for the man that he’s become.

Speaker Whereas what was that drive? I mean, you you’ve talked a little bit about that incredibly dry, credible ambition.

Speaker Even his mother was surprised. I think that in all the things in which we’re engaged, all the businesses, all the personal things, all the.

Speaker Arts.

Speaker The one thing that you have to have fewer and fewer people have. It’s not something you can muster. I mean, you’re either lucky or you’re not. Is the ability never to give up. And it’s very hard thing to understand that there just is no giving up. And that’s what it’s about. And that’s what separate continues to separate us like teams. You keep separating these and separate those and separate those. It’s simply it’s take all the mailroom assistance in the history of all the agencies. How many learned everything from reading contracts to where are those to their billionaires? They’re running giant companies, their friends, their rivals. They’ve each run the studios. And all it is, is insatiable curiosity that doesn’t quit. I think that’s the main thing that David doesn’t quit. Even since he’s managed not to work, not to be officially the head of anything, he still doesn’t quite fit.

Speaker What he doesn’t quit on are far gentler and more personal things.

Speaker Yes, we’re going to do it next week.

Speaker Oh, you’ll love that. That’ll be fun.

Speaker Let me ask you one one last question. Let me go. You said once again.

Speaker Well, I was talking about shooting a scene. I said. What you do is you keep shooting until the thing happens and nobody could have planned. And they say, OK, we’ve now we can go on. That’s the whole that’s what a movie is. Namely, it’s the place in which unconscious is meat, both in the making of and in the seeing of. That’s what they’re for. That’s what the theater was. That’s how the theater came about. In Greece, they invented. They discovered the unconscious. The only thing is they called it God’s Valhalla and the Gods. But it was the unconscious instead of ego and ID and super ego. They said, you know, Zus and that guy, those guys. The process is similar. It’s the connecting of unconscious is. And it’s also a tapping of your own. After you’ve planned every foot of the dolly. And after you’ve gone over and over the words. And after you’ve chosen the angle, the actor, the setting to express what is happening, you say, okay, unconscious, take it away. And that process, you actually learn more about it as you go. And you it’s true around for a while. And because you think drugs helped get there and this and that helps get there, nothing helps get there except understanding the art of hooking up with the back of your own and other people’s minds. And that to me, there’s still nothing greater than is nice to have a big laugh. And of course, everything gets a standing ovation. But the greatest thing is like a thousand people sitting in the dark, silent and all apprehending something that has not been spoken. They all know it. They all see it. They all hear it. They know what it is. They may not have a name for it, but it’s not told you it that you discover it. Plays are not supposed to be movies. You’re not supposed to be answers to a thousand questions. There’s simply just a few unanswered questions that you can’t get out of your head. And that’s sort of been forgotten. That and also the process. Oh, God, the movie people that say, I want to know why she isn’t. I want to know why he that. And you’ve got to put that in. Put that in the NRA. No, that’s not the idea. This is not an article. It’s not a court testimonial. It’s life. You got questions. Keep your questions. And that when you when you finally get those question askers out of there and are shooting, there are moments when the actor surprises himself or herself and you all say, oh, that’s what it is.

Speaker And Merill does that a lot when you’re on the set and you think, oh, my God. Who could have possibly thought of that? But there it is.

Speaker That’s why you do it. That’s why it’s very hard to stop doing it, because it’s sort of like a religious thing.

Speaker And it’s harder and harder to do because the people who make the decisions, no less and less about the process. But that’s showbiz.

Speaker Yes. I said I read that. I said I have Fox. Did you think of making Ethel Rosenberg funny? She’s you know, you never know what you’re gonna do till you do it. And that’s the name of great acting that you don’t know what you’re going to do. You can’t plan. I don’t. I give him a withering glance. You don’t do that. And to some extent, it’s true of everybody all the way down the line. Who knows what a movie is and loves movies and knows something about how they’re made.

Speaker David is knows all that. And he also knows when to be gone and when to shut up, which in a producer is everything.

Speaker I don’t know if he can do this or feel comfortable doing that. Maybe some some kind of an overview that about how he can help save some of the other day that this story gets more interesting, because if you just line up all the rocks of a popular. Cultural history of the last 50 years. Every third one you’re going to find. Either you’re going to find something that David Geffen missed. Obviously, that’s not a play you couldn’t have planned it a pick? Well, he was smart.

Speaker He backed the right people because he could make just some kind of a statement about if you look at the totality from the music of the 70s to the music of the 70s, to the Calvin Klein underwear campaign and to Dreamgirls, and whether that David Geffen has been there along the way and leading up to his influence now in the. Person to world leaders are asking advice from.

Speaker That’s a tough one. It’s tough for me because. I I only see when I look at David and I see someone who is not who happens to so many of us, especially around my age, is that some people just sort of go away. They’re not there anymore. David is whole was there. He’s always completely there. David does not glance at a BlackBerry while you’re talking to David, does not look over your shoulder to cue the butler to do some operation. That’s the next course or whatever. David is there. David goes with whom and what he loves when it leads to who knows. I, I don’t understand that stuff and I don’t have anything useful to say about it. I don’t think I think that there’s freedom in keeping all parts of you alive. And in ditching all the operations in our lives, all the rituals that gave us strength once. But now are just rituals. It’s like I mean, it’s like dinner parties. I know that people still have them. But I don’t understand what they’re for. I forgot. I never liked them or understood them. But now I just can’t. I don’t get it. Why would you do that? You know, you’re talking to one person and then the other person and nobody else. And you didn’t pick them. That’s an insane way to spend an evening. And. David has been passed all that for so long. You know, you can be at his table, but only if you you know, he you’re part of a group of friends. You know, it’s not your station. He doesn’t have any money there because of their station. That’s because so-and-so loves so-and-so and we all love each other. And let’s hang. I’ve met people through David, like Sam Zell that I found surprising affinities with like in the case of Zeller’s. We were Chicago guys and we had a great time.

Speaker We just with that.

Speaker Now, because we’ve known all the same people for so long, I forget how old we are.

Speaker Well, thank you very much. This would be wonderful. You’re too kind. Transformation. Actually, maybe you could say. At lunch, I asked you if you had to find one word we use, you elaborate.

Speaker Perhaps you could just say that one. Well, my friend Cynthia Neal, who runs friends, indeed, which is a group that I started with her for the help people with life challenging diseases, and it’s a pleasure for them to hang out and meet other sick people and learn to help one another. And and the heart of them is Sylvia’s Cynthia’s. You only have one angle. What do you do when I do that?

Speaker Just every second. So you can go into the what?

Speaker What Cynthia says in the beginning of the group so calmly and so matter of factly while you’re sitting and being aware of your breathing and trying to be in the room together, she says. And our main purpose in this room, and which is, of course, transformation. And then she goes on and I think it’s, of course, transformation.

Speaker Oh, yeah. I got. Yeah. Well, transformation is indeed you could say everything. And what we try to do.

Speaker Especially guys, I think I suppose women in their own way, that is always him closer to it or to me. But that to try to transform your cruder, grosser aspects into a somewhat more usable version of those things that you keep trying to transform. The thing about rage and ambition and. Well, anger overall is that it’s a great engine and it’s inexhaustible. I’ll never lose my anger as long as I love shrinks have told me.

Speaker I keep saying, but that’s nothing that’s making me angry. She’s a great kid.

Speaker Yeah, but that’s from before. But why not work? Because you don’t lose anger. It doesn’t. Well, where does it go? It goes into everything. And I thought, oh, great. It’s sort of like a nuclear thing. It’s energy. All right. Let’s let’s think of it as a source of energy and let’s transform it.

Speaker And I think that that’s possible.

Speaker And I think that David is an astonishing example of transformation of that anger. We all have it. We are all started by anger long ago.

Speaker And when you realize you’re no longer angry but still have the drive of it, terrific. You know, you’ve got something that will never die till you do.

Speaker And it’s very nice to see David use his extraordinary energy and concentration and application and study habits and imagination. All those things just for living a good life. What an idea. All right.

Speaker Now, how do I sign?

Speaker Well, David tells the truth. Just truth about himself. Tells the truth about you. It’s one of the great thrills to have a friend that tells the truth. What an idea. How often do you find that? Probably never. Everybody says, you know, you look good. No, David’s a. Yeah. You could lose as he tells the truth. And he tells the truth about himself. And when he does something incredibly brave, it’s because he’s free. He’s always told the truth about himself. So what is there to worry about? He has no skeletons in any closets. And that’s a good way to live your life.