Michael Kantor: When Moss Hart was trying to do this show that became My Fair Lady, and at the time you didn’t think it was a great idea, did you?
Al Hirschfeld: No, not at all. I stayed up until about three o’clock in the morning trying to talk Moss out of doing My Fair Lady. I told him that Pig Madden, which had just been made into a movie with, I forget who the star was, but it was such a complete work of art, I don’t see how he can improve on it by having somebody sing and do a little dance. He said, I’m sure you’re right, but I’m dedicated to it. I’m going ahead with it. Well, I went to that opening, and I realized I was in the presence of a great hit. Not only did I like My Fair Lady better than Pygmalion, but I realized that if you believed in something, you could do a musical about it, even if it was about a cigar store.
Michael Kantor: So one of the big songs of the 30s was Brother Can You Spare a Dime by Yip Harbor. We tell the story of Yip a little bit and working on that song. But it would really help us if you can describe what, because I’ve seen your photos, what the Depression was like and what seeing a Broadway show at that time was like.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, the depression was really depressing, and it was reflected in the theater with that song that you mentioned, Brother Can You Spare a Dime. But what was the question again about—
Michael Kantor: Was it, were there bread lines outside theaters? Oh no.
Al Hirschfeld: There were bread lines along Riverside Drive from 72nd Street North. Well, everybody was unemployed, it seemed to me. Everybody was affected by the Depression. No one escaped it.
Michael Kantor: Who would go to see the Broadway shows then? Who could afford that?
Al Hirschfeld: Well, those that did went. It was a depressing time. As a matter of fact, I left the country at that time. I went to Bali. I couldn’t take it. I just couldn’t the depression. And I must say, when I came back broke, like everybody else was at that time, I had about a year of wonderful experiences in Bali. That’s why Charlie Chaplin came there on a round the world tour, the first round the world tour. We became great friends after that. Well, I thought of it like everybody else did. I’m no authority on it, but it was a great show, undoubtedly so. It wasn’t a turning point in the history of musical theater, but had a wonderful conception. It had the feeling of almost like a DeMille movie, you know, it had huge potentials that affected the musicals after that.
Michael Kantor: What about, um, you know, I saw a picture you drew of Clark and McCullough in Strike of the… Tell me about those kinds of clowns like Clark and McCullough.
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, they were wonderful, and they invented themselves. They knew what they looked like, and painting eyeglasses on yourself and using artificial things to make laughs was common in those years. Actually, all the great comics came from Burlesque. Burlesque and vaudeville were the training fields for all musicals that we don’t have anymore. And we not only have that, but we have the advantage of recorded—not recorded, but What are they saying?
Michael Kantor: Amplify.
Al Hirschfeld: Amplifiers, which is a bane for musicals, it seems to me. Particularly those that have the amplifier coming across the face. It looks like they’ve been in an automobile accident. I don’t know why they can’t improve on that and have them in the back of their head or something. But before that, musical comedy people were trained. To communicate whatever they wanted to to the last row of the balcony. But that doesn’t work in TV or in movies because you enlarge these things. When you have an eyeball that’s twenty feet in diameter, it’s a little bit different than a human eyeball, so that the modern actor is trained for TV and movies rather than the theta. And that reflects in musicals, although I must say the talent in musical is as good, if not better, than it’s ever been, with the exception of comedians.
Michael Kantor: What about, uh…
Al Hirschfeld: Ahem.
Michael Kantor: What about George and Ira Gershwin? What were they like as people?
Al Hirschfeld: Well, they were both very creative, wonderful. Well, like all creative people, they were pleasant to be with, interesting, and of course what they did was had a tremendous effect on all musicals, on music actually, even classical music.
Michael Kantor: What, when you’d bump into them, what was George like? Compare George and Ira. I understand you used to play cards with them. Tell me about that.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, Ira was the gentler of the two. George had potentials as a painter. He fancied himself as an artist. And he had some talent, but most of his energies were devoted to composing. While Ira was a sweetheart of a fellow, a gentle, wonderful fellow and a great lyricist. And he came up with a marvelous model. That’s the kind of guy I am, as typical I am. He’s marvelous on his lyrics. He and Yip Harburg were great.
Michael Kantor: Tell me about Girl Crazy.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, I can’t cut anything in detail about it, except that Ethel Merman, with that siren-like voice of hers, shocked everybody in the theater. And she got a standing ovation opening night. She was a newcomer, and nobody expected that bellowing sound of hers. But that had an effect also on future musical comedy stars. Not that they tried to imitate her, but she was a unique one.
Michael Kantor: What about Of The I Sing? Did you see that show? That show sort of, because of the story, sort of lampooning politics back then, right?
Al Hirschfeld: Yes. It was a real breakthrough from that point of view. I don’t know that it had a great effect on musical comedy. I do not think it did. But it was a chance to satirize and poke fun at politics. And it did a very good job at that.
Michael Kantor: Great. What about Fanny Brice? What were her special comedic qualities?
Al Hirschfeld: Well, that’s hard to define, it’s like trying to define what makes a star. She was there, and you took her for what she was worth, and she was funny. What makes her funny? No one knows. I mean, no one has ever come up with a sensible answer to what makes a comedian, what makes the star. That’s mysterious. It’s some kind of allergy takes place, and it works sometimes.
Michael Kantor: Feel when she would sing a song like separate
Al Hirschfeld: Well, she didn’t have to sing. All she had to do was say hello and I would weep. She had a wonderful quality, an emotional quality that communicated to the audience. Mysterious again, but it works. She didn’t even try. Her voice and her whole being. Was apparent.
Michael Kantor: So tell me about the quality of this woman who sings suppertime.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, Ethel Waters didn’t have to sing. All she had to do was say, hello, and I would weep. There was a quality in her voice and in her appearance that’s indescribable. She just had it. And that was it.
Michael Kantor: Now, there was a big review in the late 30s called Pins and Needles. Oh, yes. Who wrote that? And it also was sort of making fun and stuff. Tell us about that show.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, that was a real breakthrough. Harold Roehm wrote the music and lyrics. And I don’t know whether that was the WPA adventure or not, or whether it was privately financed. I have a feeling it was part of the Federal Theater, but I’m not sure.
Michael Kantor: With the ladies garment workers that didn’t… Oh, that’s…
Al Hirschfeld: It was the ladies garment workers. And it was to be kind of a nonprofessional thing, but it worked out. People just gave it a standing ovation and it became a big hit. Was responsible, actually, for Harold Roehm’s reputation as a composer and lyricist. That was his first big effort.
Michael Kantor: What were some of the shows? He went on to do lots of different shows.
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, yes, trying to think of them by name. My memory is not what it should be. What was the last—
Michael Kantor: I think is wish you were here with
Al Hirschfeld: wish you were here, that’s right. He became a—I mean, he lost his original point of view of the left-wing political sense and became a Broadway composer and a very successful one, I must say. But I think his greatest thing was when he really believed in the things he was writing, apart from the commercial successes of Broadway. And I’ve always respected Hickey, Harold Rome, for his integrity. Because even when he did a Broadway show there was always one song in it that reflected something that he deeply felt.
Michael Kantor: Now, the 30s, around that time, there was a lot of sort of thought of the system was breaking down and people were thinking about communism and so on. Paint that picture for people who don’t understand that time.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, anybody that could read and write was part of the left movement. I mean, they were on the side of the angels. And it was for a better distribution of the wealth of this country. The poor and the rich were separated much more so than they are today. We think of this as a depressing time, but these are luxurious times compared to what went on in the earlier days. There was no Social Security. There was no way of taking care of somebody who could not take care of themselves. But now we’ve taken into—I mean, we just accept it as a fact, like running water. We just think it’s always been there, but it wasn’t.
Michael Kantor: And did Broadway musicals occasionally try to bring that out, right?
Al Hirschfeld: That’s right, yes, they tried the theater and the musicals particularly. Tried to show that there was a chance of improving what existed. And so that everyone was part of the left movement, really, except adults.
Michael Kantor: Great. How would you say, you know, you saw shows in the 20s, and then you saw, saw shows in the 30s, the 20’s were sort of flippant and gay and zig-filmed, but the 30’s, how would you compare, just generally, shows in the 30 to shows in 20s?
Al Hirschfeld: Well, the shows in the 20s were escapist things, you know. My first musical that I ever saw was a thing called Hijinks, which senseless. And most of the musicals of that time didn’t reflect life at all. It was kind of an oopsie-whoopsie view of life. But when the Depression came, that changed everything. And up to this day. We are interested in improving our lot. Well, it pointed out one of the evil discrepancies in the treatment of human beings in this country, and it made it clear that this thing had to be repaired. But apart from that, the music was wonderful, the singing was marvelous, but all of that helped to make the audience aware that something was wrong in the treatment of our— Afro-Americans. It was not a racist play by any means, but it pointed out that there was room for improvement.
Michael Kantor: Just give me the title, Pal Joey, in that so we can help place that. Pal Joey was a breakthrough.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, it dealt with the war between men and women, as they say.
Michael Kantor: No, I’m sorry, that was…
Al Hirschfeld: Pal Joey was a character that exists today, a kind of a con man, and he exploited his tendencies to use the female. For his own good.
Michael Kantor: Bill Robinson.
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, yes.
Michael Kantor: What was it like to see him on the Broadway stage?
Al Hirschfeld: Well he also had that magic quality, stardom, and he had complete control of his legs and feet and his body, as most dancers do. But he… Brought a kind of a new dimension to it, which tap dancers today are, I think, as good if not better. But he was the first that I remember being enchanted with the way he moved, and he could almost talk with his feet.
Michael Kantor: Great again i’m sorry i i gave you his name but just if you give you know bill bojangles robinson in a sentence that helps us so much
Al Hirschfeld: Well, Bill Bojangles Robinson, as he was called, knew what he was up to. He communicated what he did with his feet.
Michael Kantor: The woman who ended up in a lot of musical shows, B. Lilly.
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, yes.
Michael Kantor: What do you recall about her particular charms and…
Al Hirschfeld: Well, she had a wild talent for producing humor. I remember that she came out not very well known to the American audience, it was her first appearance here I think, but a lot of publicity in advance made her a comedian. And everyone wondered what, she came and sang a song, it’s reasonably well done, but everyone wondered, what makes her so important? But then she pulled up her dresses and roller skated off. It was a great surprise.
Michael Kantor: She, um, she, like Burt Lahr and Jimmy Durante, give me a sense of, you used the word, I’ve heard before, exploded ventricles.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, they all were, and as I say, they invented themselves. They knew what they looked like, and Burt Lohr had a strange way of making people laugh by using his arm in some strange way. I don’t know why that’s funny, but you can’t dissect humor and make it funny. It either is a reason, and that happened to be funny. And he had a way of gargling. I don’t know what he did, but he did something with his mouth, and it was funny. A little bit, not very well. We were friends, but I didn’t get to know him too well, no.
Michael Kantor: You saw a lot of his shows though. What do you think? What was his impact, Oscar Hammerstein?
Al Hirschfeld: Well, he had a tremendous influence in the theater. I mean, the musical has not been the same since Hammerstein and Rogers and Hart. Collaborated. They had a point of view. For a song like You Have to be Taught to Hate, it’s typical Hammerstein. They had a political point of view in everything they did, actually.
Michael Kantor: Sort of captured both the fact that he always loved the highlights, but there was something also going on with him that was sort of not happy. Tell me about Cole Porter. Did you ever go to his parties, his shows?
Al Hirschfeld: No, I didn’t know Cole too well. He was a great friend of Moses’. They went on a trip together, as a matter of fact. But I never got to know, except from what he did in the theater. I met him once or twice, but never got to know him really well.
Michael Kantor: What distinguished his work in the theater, was it the lyrics or the music?
Al Hirschfeld: Well, I think his lyrics, they had a wonderful contemporary quality and like Ogden Nash, he had a wild talent for choosing the right word, which was always a surprise. There was a surprise element in his lyrics that others like Ira didn’t have.
Michael Kantor: West Side Story. You remember that opening night when-
Al Hirschfeld: Oh yes.
Michael Kantor: What was it like? There was a lot of expectation from that team, wasn’t there?
Al Hirschfeld: Oh yes, well it exposed the gangs of New York and I don’t think that had ever been done before in musicals, at least not to my memory. And so that was a kind of a breakthrough, it was a Romeo and Juliet story put into the gangster era. And it worked!
Michael Kantor: And how when he did a Broadway musical, he was bringing a lot more in than, you know, he’s bringing interesting background to his work, wasn’t he?
Al Hirschfeld: Oh yes, he had a great knowledge of music, classical and popular, and he used both to his advantage. He was a multi-talented man in both the musical field and in Sirius.
Michael Kantor: How did Rogers and Hammerstein, how did you help Rogers and Hammerstein on King and I? Tell us about that.
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, well, Hammerstein got in touch with me and said, you’ve just been to Siam, and we’re thinking of doing a musical about Siam. And would you have anything? I said, well I did a lot of movies there. He said, could we see them? And I said yes. So they came up here, and I ran off my movies, the 16 millimeter movies, amateur movies. But it did capture, I had one. Scene of the Princess Poon in Siam lent me the royal dancers from the time to putting on their costume and makeup and was complete from the beginning, sewing themselves into the costumes, putting the makeup on and the headdress and all of that. And that was very helpful to them in devising the scenic things.
Michael Kantor: Great, I love that story, thank you. Let’s jump way ahead to a show which I’m just curious what your reaction was. Hair, mid-60s, what do you think of that?
Al Hirschfeld: Well, it reflected its time, you know. The musical theater always does, somehow, except in recent years where they’re all revivals, but it does revive the time that it was done. But they’ve always tried to keep abreast of what is going on, and it’s reflected in the musicals, I think.
Michael Kantor: That’s such an important point for our series, which is about musicals. I just like to, I sort of started in on here. Let’s just get that in the clear. Musical theaters, one more time, reflect their, musicals reflect their time.
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, well, musical theaters reflected the time that they were done. In here particularly, it reflected the new costumes that people were in the street. They looked more like theater people than people on the stage. They dressed that way, kind of a sloppiness appeared, permeated the whole musical theater.
Michael Kantor: Where are cultures headed or what’s going on now.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, it’s not reflecting so much as it reflects the opinions of the authors, more than it does reflect the times that they’re writing them. They have a fairy tale quality about them, it seems to me, the one the English imports.
Michael Kantor: What about the producers? Does that feel, and give me the title of that show, does that feel like an old-fashioned show for you or?
Al Hirschfeld: The producers, well, it has the permanent materials of great art. It not only reflects its time, but it is a satirical acceptance of a thing that we don’t understand how it happened. I mean the whole advent of Hitler is so crazy and the producers managed to capture that insanity. And even though you come in there with a chip on your shoulder, you’re laughing at Hitler. And you realize that he has a point of view to make. It’s a very complicated one, but it works. Well, I didn’t love the old Times Square, and I don’t love the new one. It changes. Like everything changes, the form changes. But the insanity remains the same.
Michael Kantor: And you went to the theater at the New Amsterdam. Tell us about what it was like then.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, Times Square has changed. I was not particularly fond of it then, nor am I fond of it now. But there was a big change. At 42nd Street and Broadway on the corner, there was the United Cigar Store. And outside of that, there were a handsome line of cabs that had moved from there to the plaza. But they used to be lined up there, and people would get into a handsome cab and ride around to 46th Street Down 42nd Street and go to the theater, all dressed to the nines with top hats, cutaways. That has changed completely. Opening night now, the critics don’t go to theater, they go to previews, so there are no critics on opening night, but the same crowd of theater enthusiasts. Except they’re dressed differently now. They take off their coat and they’re in their shirt sleeves. I can’t get used to that, but that is the reality. Things change. They always do. The form changes. But as I say, the insanity remains. Well, outside of the handsome calves on 42nd Street and Broadway, the horse-drawn carriages that would parade up and down Broadway. Before the theater, and then they would deposit the patrons to the theater from these horse-drawn cabs. That was changed completely, of course, to what it is today when people come in taxis and they’re not dressed up at all, I mean, undressed, they’re dressed in normal business attire. But when they take off their coat, they’re in their short sleeves. And this is opening night, which used to be a very glamorous thing, with all the critics who no longer appear on opening nights, they go to previews. And that has changed. But like everything else, it’s normal.
Michael Kantor: I mean, when you look at a show like that, like on your toes, what are you trying to impart to the viewer of your illustration?
Al Hirschfeld: Well, in the case of On Your Toes, with Ray Bolger… Well, the strange thing with Bolzer, he seemed to think that he was copying my drawings. He told me that he copies my drawings, and I said, it’s ridiculous, Ray. I mean, I copy what you’re doing, except I’m not held back by gravity. I can have the drawing, and it can have you leaping into space. He said, well, that’s what I try to do. I have your drawings up, and then I try and imitate what you are drawing. I said, not just the other way around. But that’s what happens with drawings sometimes. Well, I don’t know. The show itself dictates the limitations that I perform in my drawings. I don’t do it consciously. It’s all subconscious. I mean, if I go to the theater and I’m sitting out in a rehearsal, I usually, of course, in former years, I would go out of town to Boston or New Haven or Philadelphia, Washington. Uh… But now they open cold uh… I suppose economically it seemed Physically and materialistically, it’s not as safe as it used to be. I know that many shows out of town were about to fold, like Oklahoma was called Away We And I went up to do a drawing on that and it was about to fall. I came back to the Times and told them that the show may not come in. And so they asked me to go to… Boston to do Ziegfeld Follies, and the press agent from Oklahoma asked me to stay over and see the changes that they made from New Haven, and it was a different show, but I thought it was about equal with New Haven. I didn’t think either one of them was very good. When I would go to the opening in Oklahoma, it was a completely new show at the opening of New York. And I realized I was in the face of a big hit, so it’s unpredictable, these things. I once wrote a musical with Perlman, and Vernon Duke did the music, and I was the national lyrics. We died in Philadelphia. It’s a long story, but that in itself would make a great musical, what happened with that show. Of course, with the Chotarovs, they were used to that. We were not, all of Ogden and Sid did. Contravenous before, which was a big hit, but it’s unpredictable.
Michael Kantor: What happens to a show out of town, just in the broadest sense? It gets totally…
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, it’s terrible, I mean the things that happen are unbelievable. We had a leading man who both Perlman and I insisted on having, came from Vaudeville. And I always thought that was a great training school for all comedians. And when we opened in New Haven, he did his Vaudevillac. He just came out and did the Vaudevilac. We were backstage, got a hold of him, and said, What were you doing out there? He said, you heard them laughing, they weren’t laughing at your material, they were laughing at mine. Well, you can’t, we let them go that afternoon. Now we were booked in Philadelphia with no leading man. The whole show was written around him. So chances of success are very slight. Those are unpredictable. Zero’s Mostel was one of my favorites. He was a painter, a hell of a good painter too. That’s what he wanted to be. Quite by accident, he became an actor. He used to do his things down in my studio when I lived in the village. And one night Gordon, who ran the cabaret on Sheridan Square, said, listen, why don’t you come over to the, and Joe said, I’m not an actor, I am not going to go over Well, we persuaded him to come over the night club. And he did his act and it was a big success. And he became an actor, and the name Zero was given to him by Ivan Black, who was the press agent for Gordon’s village cabaret, and he gave him the name, Zero.
Michael Kantor: What did he bring to the role of Tevye in Fiddler? I mean, he was working with Jerry Robbins, right? Yeah. But I see like, how did you capture his energy? He’s massive.
Al Hirschfeld: Oh yeah, he and Boris Aronson are the ones that are responsible for the success of Fiddler on the Roof, I think. Jerry Robbins was brought in at the last minute and he contributed to one thing that made the thing, I suppose, a success, the dances. He did a wonderful job and Boris and Zero never quite got along with Jerry. They didn’t respect his talents, but they didn’t like him as a personality. But they came through in flying colors.
Michael Kantor: What about, I see Streisand, who you’ve got up there as well. She was on the Broadway, in the Broadway musical.
Al Hirschfeld: Yeah, that also has to do with Hecky Rome who discovered her. I was at a rehearsal of I Can Get It For Your Wholesale and Barbara came out and looked at the audience to see who was out there and Hecky said, just sing something. She sang something, I forget what it was, oh, a popular song at the time, and after about the fourth note, he said, you’re hired. She was absolutely surprised. She said, now I can get a telephone. It was that up against it in those years. But Hecci was responsible for her whole career, recognized her as a star in one—
Michael Kantor: And shortly after doing I Can Get It For You Wholesale, she goes on to do a show where she’s sort of prizing the role of someone you knew, Fanny Brice, right? Oh yeah, sure. How did that sort of catapult her?
Al Hirschfeld: Well, Barbara and Fanny Bryce had a lot in common. I don’t know what it is, but they both had that same star quality, although Barbara could really sing. But I don’t think that made the difference, actually. There’s a personality behind this girl, and it comes out in her singing, but also in her behavior. She’s a star, that’s all there is to it. No defining it, everybody recognizes it.
Michael Kantor: The last person up there I see is Liza Minnelli.
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, Liza’s a real original, and she’s marvelous, you know. She has all the quality of her mother, Judy Garland. And, uh… Unfortunately, she didn’t have the stamina that her mother had. She did have it, and she may get it back again. We all hope she does.
Michael Kantor: Overly talented people. Help us understand, you know, that there were all these different art forms, but what was the musical A Perfect Showcase for? People like Mustell, people like Streisand, that the musical was star-driven in a way. That’s right. That’s what I’m looking at.
Al Hirschfeld: Yes, that’s right. And they were chosen because they were part of what they were doing. I mean, they knew exactly what they were doing, in Carol Shatting, in Zero Mostel, Burt Law, all of these wonderful comedians we don’t have anymore because there’s no training ground for comedians anymore. It’s very difficult. Open cold on a Broadway show with no previous experience. All these others had years of burlesque and they knew timing and what made people laugh. You can’t do it with writing about them with prose, you know. They bring a quality to it that the composer and the lyricist never dreamed of. They add to the musical, but the new musicals are all revivals. Very few new musical are coming in outside of the ones that had the great effect from Britain, but they didn’t seem to reflect what the musicals usually did. The Cats, for instance, was complete fairy tale. I mean, I never understood one lyric. Cats, and I spoke to other people, they didn’t understand the lyrics, but it was a huge success. I could never understand why. Every now and then something like that happens in a musical theater, it’s inexplicable. I don’t know why the big success of Cats, I mean it lasted for years. And I don’t think anybody ever knew one lyric of that thing except for reading about it later or picking out the lyrics which are very good. But, uh. Impersonating cats. I don’t know what that stands for. It’s crazy. Absolutely insane. They can’t argue with success. Well, Burt Williams was a unique character in the musical theater. He was a black-faced comedian, although he was Afro-American, but he used black-face and white lips, and he was a slow-moving southern gentleman, and it captured that somehow and made people laugh.
Michael Kantor: What about Jolson? And give me his name.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, Jolson also did Blackface, but he was an extrovert performer. He always had a feeling that he was going to do more and more. He said, �You ain’t seen nothing yet.� This kind of thing stuck with him. And I saw him in the last thing he did, played at Western, I think it was. I can’t think of the name of that show, can you? Louise?
Michael Kantor: She went she went in the back
Al Hirschfeld: I don’t remember the name of the show, but he was awfully good at it.
Michael Kantor: Well, that’s Broadway show.
Al Hirschfeld: I don’t remember the name of it, but Al Jolson took over and really made it a minor hit. I was never a great Jolsen fan. I always thought he overacted and overplayed, but the audience was not in agreement with my opinion.
Michael Kantor: Why do you think blackface was so popular?
Al Hirschfeld: I don’t know why they made Blackface, but before the musical the minstrels were all black-faced. It was a very popular way of doing musicals. Before the musical came in they said, I don�t mean the operetta, I mean the musical theater as we know it. Started out as all blackface, I think. But then they used all of the things that Vaudeville and Burliss gave to the musical, which I think is a great contribution. There’s nothing to replace it, and that’s, I think, why we have so many— not lack of talent, surely. There’s more talent now than we’ve ever had, but no place to do it.
Michael Kantor: Remember Shuffle Along and all the bl- there were a lot of black shows in the 20s
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, yes.
Michael Kantor: What, I mean you did a book on Harlem in the 20s. Just describe how this was a moment in time where there was like a cultural crossover, right? People going uptown, people were coming. Tell us about your experiences with that.
Al Hirschfeld: Well, the Blacks seem to mean natural for musicals. I mean, they are musical. They don’t have to work at it. They seem to have a sense of rhythm that captures the audience. And I think the white, in most cases, copied them an awful lot, musically. But that has disappeared lately, since that split is longer as apparent as it was in those years. When they were not allowed in hotels and all sorts of things they were so restricted against. But now that they’re accepted, there’s hardly any difference between them, between the white and the black.
Michael Kantor: You remember going up to Harlem to hear jazz and-
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, yes, during the Speakeasy days. Yes, I did a book on Speakeasies. I got my listing from police headquarters. It was not a state law, you see, it was a federal law, the Volstead Act. And so the state paid no attention to it, which made everybody a law breaker in the federal point of view. And that brought in a whole gangster era. And that had a profound effect on musical theater. The gangster era, brought about by prohibition. Nobody seemed to pay much attention to it because they never killed civilians, they killed each other, and nobody paid much attention. We’d read every now and then of one of them winding up in the river in a block of cement, but nobody cared much one way or the other. I remember going to Jack and Charlie’s, which later became the 21, and standing up the bar. There was Jimmy Walker, our mayor, police commissioner, Supreme Court judge, all breaking the law. It was natural. Everybody was a law breaker in those years, which brought on that. You couldn’t complain about gangsters since you were one yourself.
Michael Kantor: You say it had a big effect on the Broadway musical. Is that because people had the money? Those guys had money so they could do shows?
Al Hirschfeld: They financed a lot of musicals. They loved musicals, these gangsters. They loved the girls and the musical and the hurdy-gurdy part of the musical theater. And they financed lot of them.
Michael Kantor: Wasn’t Billy Rose one of those guys?
Al Hirschfeld: No, Billy was part of it, but he was not a gangster. He was a very creative guy, he really was, and he expressed it in words and his whole would make a wonderful musical, actually Billy’s life.
Michael Kantor: Did you know any gangsters who are on Broadway?
Al Hirschfeld: Oh, yes.
Michael Kantor: Tell me, just give me one story about a gangster on Broadway.
Al Hirschfeld: They were strange kooks, they were really very odd fellows. I remember Dutch Schultz, his great contribution, I think he invented the hot foot, which is when a fellow falls asleep at a bar, you put a match in his sole of his shoe and you light it and he wakes up with his foot. Another one contributed, they used to have parties and everybody would throw their coats on a bed and he invented a little lock and he locked all the coats together so that when you went to leave you couldn’t get your coat, I mean you had to leave it there or cut a hole in your coat. They were crazy, you know, they were childish lunatics.
