Speaker You’ve told me that you. First of all, leaving the club in Chicago, could you tell me about that?
Speaker I opened for Hlynur at the Shappi. Which was I was a young boy because I’ve been in love with Lena since I was a kid. She’s much older than I am, you know, and. To open the show for the great Lena Horne at the age of 18 and 19 was about the biggest thing that happened to me up until that time, and we became great friends.
Speaker Could I ask you just to.
Speaker I’ve been in love with Lena Horne since I was a child. She’s much older than I am, you know, she’s well, she’s a great lady. I opened for many years ago at the famed Schapira Chicago, and it was really, in a sense, my first big break, big nightclub, big star opening for was kind of brought me to another level. What was the reputation of that?
Speaker Uh. She was going through a very difficult period. And. I guess. In retrospect, she was tough because she was going through tough times and. She wasn’t about to give in and she wasn’t about to do it like everybody else wanted her to do, and she did it her way. When I say difficult. Not difficult with the band, not difficult with performers of co-workers and not difficult with the audience, but you could always find a sense of protection. She was always protecting herself. Always, always seemed to be looking over his shoulder. Somebody was going to take something away from her or make her do something that she didn’t want to do.
Speaker What do you think? I thought she was to take away.
Speaker I think that she was afraid that they were going to take away her. Her humanity, her her feelings, her honesty, because. All her life, she, in a sense, had been doing what everybody else dictated, and when I met her, she was at this time one of the biggest nightclub attractions in America, and she was now going to do it her way. And she was right because she was great and different. And different.
Speaker Well, most performers, black and white, we were all told to come out there and good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I’m so happy to be on the stage and I’m so happy that you’re here. You know, Linacre Martin started right in their face, boom.
Speaker And there was a mysticism about it. No one could define it, but it was undoing me. This is it. And she was she was seductively and subtly brazen. And of course, that all added to the appeal and to the word sexy, as she was known and still is.
Speaker You told me that.
Speaker She didn’t use sex in the in the way that a lot of performers did it.
Speaker That’s right. She wasn’t coy about it. She wasn’t cute about it. You know, I always felt that there was a.
Speaker One in anger. In Lynam and justifiably, and I always got the feeling that one Leanne came out on the stage. And she do her little thing.
Speaker The women in the audience appreciated her talent and of course, a great beauty. But I could see and obviously the the audience was made up of white corkage.
Speaker And I could always get the feeling that Lena was out there singing and saying to herself, you want to take me to bed, but you won’t let me come in through the front door and.
Speaker That, to me, was what Lina was doing up there brilliantly and musically, but I could sense it.
Speaker Described to me is watching her perform. You were telling me something about. This message that she was giving them, this anger seems like Joe Lewis one.
Speaker Again, going back to there was no cuteness or coyness about a. Watching this. Beautiful woman. She was like a championship fighter. She come out and sing a song, she hit him on the left, jab him with another left and cross with the right. She she artistically and musically, I always felt was going for the jugular. Well, I mean, from what I know and what I’ve seen, uh, she had a fight, she was fighting, she was fighting all her life. I got the feeling that the public and the powers that be. Didn’t want it to be black. And I think she resented that because I vividly remember. When Lena Horne played the Sands Hotel in Las Vegas. And. I was headlining the show before. And obviously. I stayed over to see Lena, and she’d been there before she turned to Jack and try to I wasn’t witness to this, but I know it to be a fact, she said, I’m going to walk on that stage only if I can walk through the front door. And Las Vegas in those days was a Jim Crow town. The greatest black stars work there, but they didn’t go through the front door and through the lobby and through the casino. And so opening night, they had cameras all over the front. Now, obviously, when Lena work, she didn’t come through the front door. She didn’t walk through the casino. She went through the stage door with a little babushka, no makeup on, you know, but car pulled up and Lena was regal. Pictures were being taken and she walked through the front door and she was the first one. When?
Speaker Well, let me ask it, when she and when he got married, was there any repercussions of his family repercussions?
Speaker I don’t know about Lenny’s family. Lenny was a unique man. I mean, Lenny was besides being a great talent, he was a. He had a great sense of things and an intellect. And when Lenny Marilena, he lost his job at MGM, he was in charge. He was the head of music at MGM. Nobody ever said it that many words, but he was it was let loose. I remember he was replaced by Johnny Green. And I know it was because Lenny had married a black woman. So who cares what his family thought, you know?
Speaker Tell me about getting your first day.
Speaker Well, after I appeared at the Shappi with Lina, obviously because of that kind of exposure, I started making a little noise and I started opening the show for Tony Martin, who was also a major nightclub singing star.
Speaker And I toured with Tony. And Tony promised that I would come to New York with him. And the big nightclub at that time was right over the George Washington Bridge. It was called the Bill Miller’s Riviera, but the roof opened up. It was it was really one of the great nightclubs of its time. And at the last minute, Tony came in and said, I promised a famous fat Jack Leonard, the comedian, that they would open with me and whatever. And I mentioned this to I’d seen Lynne said, you going into the Riviera with Tony? And I said, no, fat Jackie Leonard’s going in. And she jumped up. She says, I’ll take it.
Speaker And I opened with Lena, I’ll take you. So you clearly owe the friendship.
Speaker Well, I like this so much, how can you not be friends with somebody that loves you, you know, and she knew it and oh, I was a crazy kid. I used to put her on ice, do terrible things. And she she announced that, you know, here was this vibrant, sexy woman on stage. And if I say something off color, she almost stopped.
Speaker Are you related to money? Well.
Speaker My mother, as an all Jewish families, my mother told me that a third cousin of ours was was was was related to Lenny’s aunt and that in a sense, the.
Speaker Please stop trying. OK?
Speaker Can we start that again? My cousins, how are you related?
Speaker While I was working with Lynam, talking to my mother and like an all Jewish families, my mother said, did you know that my third cousin is married, is related through marriage to Lenny Zand?
Speaker Lenny Hayton sent them. So I came into the dressing room and I said, we’re cousins. And he said, Don’t you ever call me cousins?
Speaker Don’t you ever call me cousins? And then one night, I don’t remember where it was. I in introducing it, I said, Ladies and gentlemen, my cousin Lena Horne, she came out laughing and she wasn’t supposed to be laughing because she came out like like a panther, you know? And but I do little things like that to Lenny and tell him he was conducting for, you know, he had no longer he was no longer at MGM and was leading the band behind Lena. And and the amazing thing about it, he didn’t feel that he had, you know, stepped down from some exalted position.
Speaker He thought that conducting Felina was terribly important.
Speaker When we were on tour, Lennie Hayton conducted the orchestra for Felina, and a lot of people would say, you know, well, you know, he lost his job as the head of music at MGM and now was merely what is that guy’s name? I can’t be here all day for that. Which has been.
Speaker How long will you watch, besides did you socialize with.
Speaker No. Yeah, I did. Oh, yeah, but not Shobha, no, no, no, no, no, no. Well and well, Florida, Las Vegas, I don’t think we sat around and, you know, in the public places together, but we didn’t care to we always had a joint to go to after election or after the show. No, there was no. She was great fun and she loves relax, you know, and after the show, she and I, Lenny and sort of friends sit around and hoist a few, you know, and she’s great company.
Speaker Still is. I mean, you know.
Speaker I’ve heard about Martin. Oh, yeah, well, he and I were we were scratch drinkers and I learned I learned how to drink martinis from Lenny and she used to say to them, why don’t you teach them how to sing instead of how to drink?
Speaker Did you all were you all did you all hang out with friends in the whole world, hang hung out, let Mr..
Speaker Frank was a big fan of loveliness musically and as you know, as friends. But Frank was crazy about Lenny and Avelino and Lenny separated until Lenny’s death, he literally lived with Frank. He lived together in Frank’s house in Palm Springs. They were inseparable.
Speaker Basically is when Lena and Lenny, where they began to have serious problems. Do you think that Lenny ever fully understood Lena is as a black?
Speaker I never. I never saw Lenny behave differently socially. Among blacks or whites when he was with Lena. Lenny was blessed, he was he was an artist, a great musician, and Lena represented a lot of things. First of all, that I know that was in the early days. It was great love and it was great respect.
Speaker And I don’t think I ever heard and I’m sure they had their quarrels, to say the least, but I never heard publicly, I never heard Lenny say anything rude or disrespectful as husbands have a way of doing on again.
Speaker You know, he was he was very affectionate and and very respectful of.
Speaker You know, Lena Lenni, as a musician, was comfortable around musicians, didn’t make any difference what color they were. And so the same thing with Frank, you know, musicians like to be with other musicians. And and that was generally the circle that we traveled in, real fine musicians.
Speaker Well, when they split. For some reason, I think I know the reason one One-Liner and Leny split. Was in New York and Lenny was in California and I was making a film. So I was out there about three or four months. So I saw a great deal of money and it took it very badly. It was really broken up about it. And I think it was that’s why Frank kind of took them to his bosom, you know? I mean, but we did some serious drinking. And I was affected by it.
Speaker Very effective.
Speaker No, I think, well, maybe a small maybe a crack in his heart, and those martinis didn’t help either the. I went to the funeral.
Speaker I remember Sidney Lumet and Gail, Leanna’s daughter.
Speaker And Sidney Lumet wife and Sidney and Gail and I, I’ve known Gail since she was a child in Sydney and I’ve been friends forever. And so I was kind of the family started growing. You see, our relationship started growing and.
Speaker I remember the funeral.
Speaker I was sitting there when we were all seated quite close together and.
Speaker Frank wouldn’t come to the funeral.
Speaker He was really broken up about and Frank, you know, doesn’t like to show weakness. And and he knew that he couldn’t he wouldn’t be able to sit through the funeral. And it was a it was strange, the services took place at the grave of in a tent. And all of a sudden, I heard this incredible trumpet. And the trumpeter was playing Mood Indigo, and I thought for the moment, I thought it was a recording and then I realized often the side was Miles Davis.
Speaker Destroyed everybody.
Speaker Lina was in such a deep funk after very few people. How did you get her to come back?
Speaker Well, that’s the story I told the story stories in my book.
Speaker And then.
Speaker When I was being honored by the Friars Club, Leno was on the dais and she wasn’t scheduled to speak, you know, pretty shy about public speaking, and she told a story about what you have to tell you if you want to hear it.
Speaker Yeah, definitely. By the way, when your book coming out June 16th, this will be out in July. So the story will be debated. But, uh, you told me that, uh, Gayle and Sydney were really quite worried about her. Could you tell me that?
Speaker When Sidney Lumet became Linas Son in law, that even brought me closer to the family, I used to drive me crazy and I used to say, you know, we’re really Mirrabooka. That means related and. After the tragedies that Lina had gone through, the father and the son.
Speaker And then Lenny, she literally stopped working.
Speaker And and became quite isolated from from the public exception of a few friends, she didn’t you didn’t see Lenar out much. And I was going into the Caesars Palace in Las Vegas. And I said to the to the bosses, you know, I said, I’d like to bring in. Some big stars to, you know, share the bill with me and.
Speaker They said, go ahead. And I said, I’d love to see if I can get Lina.
Speaker She hadn’t worked in probably and Gail was very concerned and I decided that I’d confront Lena. I called her, made an appointment, came up to her apartment. She lived on Lexington Avenue. I remember it vividly.
Speaker And I sat there with a little small talk and she got sassy with me. She says, I know why you’re here.
Speaker You want to go back to work? You know, Gail, I said, wait a minute, just wait a minute, wait.
Speaker I’m going in Las Vegas and I want to share the bill with you, and I think you should get back to work, and she said, I’m not. And we had a big fight, really. I mean, screaming at each other.
Speaker And.
Speaker Next day, I get a call from Ralph Harris, a long time manager and friend. He said, I don’t know what you said to her yesterday, but she just called me, she said she’s going to go into Caesar’s Palace with you. What a coup. First, you know, from a commercial Lena Horne on show with me. And also because of my friendship with I wanted to get back to work. She was too good, you know, to just sit in that apartment and.
Speaker What the hell did you say? Well, I’ll give you the punchline. I was I was being honored by the Friars Club.
Speaker And Lenar had already had her third and fourth great success, she’d been on Broadway and obviously she was on Broadway. I used to go to see her once every two weeks and I was honored and I wanted Lena to be on the dais and she wasn’t scheduled to speak. And all of a sudden in the middle of the speeches and the entertainment, Lena got up and said, I want to say something.
Speaker And he said the wall of the story.
Speaker And she said he made me come back to work. He came up to see me. I hadn’t been working for a long time, I’ve been going through a rough time and she’s pointing a finger at me like that. And he got me to go to work and everybody asked me, what did he say to get you back to work? I said, Lena, you don’t get back to work. I’m on Kish. I’m.
Speaker Let’s take that again. OK, those.
Speaker And then Lena, in her little talk ad lib talk, she said, I know you’re all wondering. What Alan said to get me back to work. She looked at me, said, if you don’t get back on a stage, I’m going to kick your ass. I didn’t really say that, but it was funny coming out of his mouth.
Speaker That’s good.
Speaker I want to go just back a moment to leading many in their whole musical relationship as he was really key for her. I mean, Lenny was this major musician. Tell me how that relationship or what was leading to.
Speaker Lenny. I’m Lina. We’re in a musical partnership, Lenny, as all great conductors. For singers. The way they function when they get great, there’s this marriage musical marriage, Lenny could sense. Every little nuance, every little thing that Lena did on the stage and besides conducting that orchestra.
Speaker He always had I always just think of it as a third year. He always was tuned. Even if his back was to lean, he was always tuned to what Lena was doing out there, was wonderful to watch.
Speaker If you think of marriage as an equation, these two things you add them up to equals something else.
Speaker What what did Lenny bring to it? What did Leanna bring to it? And what did it what did that sum up to?
Speaker Ah, you know, I really don’t feel that that I have the right to. To make a judgment on a relationship such as, you know, Lenny and Lena.
Speaker Obviously, there was this great physical attraction. And Lenny was a very dashing. White beard, white hair, dressed immaculately, a bon vivant. So we know there was this great physical attraction, but I think they dug each other.
Speaker They really were into.
Speaker Came close to Lena and Lenny, they were I mean, they were well along in their marriage.
Speaker And.
Speaker No, I was never aware of that, and if Lina says it, it has to be true, you know, it has to be her thinking, but she never complained of back doors that weren’t open to her.
Speaker That’s. Lena kept.
Speaker All her. Feelings.
Speaker Particularly her feelings about equality of race. She never discussed that, I never heard Lena ever say anything, except she did it by performance, like the story of her insisting on going through the front door of the Sands Hotel.
Speaker But when the movement came. And I think that perhaps or not, this is only a judgment.
Speaker I think there was a lot of resentment among the black community about Leanna being, quote unquote, so white. I had this feeling I don’t know if if it was true, but I sensed it and when the movement started.
Speaker When Dr. King. Started to be heard.
Speaker Roubaud and Lina just let it all hang out. She said things that I know must have been pent up and I’m sure she discussed it with the most intimate, but it was.
Speaker It was.
Speaker It was during that just at the beginning of the of the civil rights movement, that Ilina just stepped right out in the front. Came a champion.
Speaker Now, Liz Smith says she dropped her boyfriend’s, but you want to.
Speaker Well, I’m.
Speaker You see now, again, I wasn’t aware that she dropped her white friends just a. It didn’t feel like that to you? No, no, we got, you know. Not that I reflect.
Speaker Lina was always surrounded by blacks.
Speaker Girlfriends, family, uh.
Speaker And as I think back, I remember Lenny and I probably being the only whites in the in the group. The social group.
Speaker But. And then, of course. It was. It was Lina.
Speaker Well, Lena was a part of it, but I became involved in the civil rights movement because of Harry Belafonte and our long friendship and of course, my own feelings, my own conscience. And that’s that’s, you know, our careers took different directions in them, but our friendship remained and I would see Lenar on occasion. Call her up. My wife and I take her out to dinner.
Speaker And. I think that. Even during the early days of the civil rights movement, our paths and crossed in the movement, but I know that Lena. Was aware of my activities, the march from Selma to Montgomery in the.
Speaker I think that Lena was very pleased, to say the least, I think she was proud.
Speaker Um, one of the things you talk about when she let it all hang out, he told me that. She was really intriguing to you as a person and that when she got married, she got you.
Speaker Could you tell me why? And to start with her name. Lina.
Speaker Who was always seem to be in control whenever she was out in public. She had learned that at a very early age how to behave in public. Well, when she got mad backstage, for whatever reason, it was, look out, fire and flame. I mean, she she did have a temper and. Her lips would get tighter and tighter and tighter as she got angrier and angrier and angrier than I’d say, something innocuous, something stupid, and she’d get even better.
Speaker But look.
Speaker Oh, there’s a woman who was totally filled with with emotion. With love and anger and hate, and I mean, it was all wrapped up in this in this very beautiful package.
Speaker You told me that when you got angry, she very.
Speaker Oh, when she got angry, she’d get real down home.
Speaker I always say that she’d be saying, well, you know, here we are among the lilies.
Speaker And then something would happen and she’d get about as colored as you could get. And I started laughing. She got mad. She got down, I said, Linda Downhome.
Speaker Was there any way what would? What would make a difference for her, what would assuage her was anyway of.
Speaker No, I think Lenny Lenny handled very well, Lenny, Lenny would handle it very well. He let it go.
Speaker And.
Speaker And she’d come down, you know, she’d blow off the steam and then.
Speaker So to pull yourself together.
Speaker I do think that Lena has a very long memory. And so even when she would.
Speaker You know, calm yourself down, the person that. Inflicted this anger caused the same.
Speaker Down deep, she didn’t she wouldn’t forgive long memory. Oh, no. Her friends remained our friends and our enemies were her enemies.
Speaker That’s why.
Speaker I said the. When I asked about Lina was tough. She was tough.
Speaker Well, adored Yale.
Speaker And.
Speaker I went to I went to a wedding when she married Sydney and and then. Spent a lot of time in their home together. And and the children. And then when Gail remarried. I was privileged to be invited to the wedding.
Speaker And the.
Speaker I you know, Gail has written about about the relationship in the years and the. Background, the tree, you know, the heritage. But I always thought it. Couldn’t have been easy.
Speaker Being Lena’s daughter.
Speaker I mean, that was one of the most beautiful women in the world. And although girl was very attractive, she was shy and as a child, you know, gangly. You got to be tough.
Speaker The it’s got to be tough, the leaders don’t, although Lina was a very good mother, terrific mother.
Speaker Um, Lina often had to do her mothering from a distance that she was on the road as.
Speaker Well, all of us in show business, we all become better grandparents and parents. Because like in Lena’s family, when the kids were growing up, Lena was on the road. And.
Speaker When we when we feel established, when we feel the confidence, when we feel we don’t have to keep chasing and running. We settle down and realize that all the fun we missed. Watching our kids grow up. And so I think we we try to redo it. We try to make amends and then, of course, we become great grandparents. And if you’ve seen Lena’s grandchildren look out uses.
Speaker How how did Lina take the Sydney?
Speaker Lena probably say something to the contrary, she adored Sidney. She loves Sidney.
Speaker I think, again.
Speaker She she realized that it was a good husband. But she also realized that he was a major talent and boy, Lena loved talented people. Directors and writers and musicians. She.
Speaker She was a devotee of excellence, of ability. She loved to be around talented people.
Speaker And Sydney, of course, was as good as it gets you.
Speaker Were they surprised when the breakup happened?
Speaker No, I don’t think they were surprised.
Speaker I think I think the relationship was starting to come apart. And.
Speaker I think they felt.
Speaker That I know that there was a sense of.
Speaker Of.
Speaker Of trying to protect Lena. And.
Speaker I felt having you know, I was friends with both, I thought that was Lenny that needed protecting because because if Lena was hiding something, I don’t you know, I’m not aware. But the marriage had been unraveling for quite a while. And and Lenny was was the one who really took it badly.
Speaker I think we just want everyone watching, but Elena, I need you to come over here because he looks over that way and this is.
Speaker Oh, you know, Lena and I did duets together. Oh, oh, yeah, that’s all I got.
Speaker When Lena knew I love to sing. And I’d always be singing around, as you say, will you cut that out? When Lena and I got together to go to the place, Caesar’s Palace. I said, here’s the way we’ll do it. I’ll come out to 10 minutes. Warm the audience up, so to speak. You’ll come out, do your 45 or 50 minutes, I’ll come out, do my 45 or 50 minutes, and then I’ll bring you back and we’ll do something together. She said, me sing with you. She carried on. Well, I brought in the best arrangers and we did a medley. Of of Tounes, I ended up doing it over the years with Ella and Tony Newley and Carol Channing, whoever I costarred with, we’d always end up. But it was with Lena that this thing became part of my of the work I did on stage. And I always remember I’d say Lena came out and I’d say, Lena, we’ve known each other.
Speaker And she say to me, Now, listen, she’s if you’re going to start talking to me about the old days and about this and about and about the shape, and she goes through this little part and I said that, and then all of a sudden she’d go with this little, like vamp in the back of me. She’d sing in olden days, a glimpse of stocking. And we go into a part of my life I get about.
Speaker It was. That was great fun, great fun.
Speaker I don’t know, there might be there might be an audio. I don’t know. I’m sure there is.
Speaker I know I love the arrangement, but the lawyer. That was great fun.
Speaker One thing I’m going to get to to get. You were telling me how much love to.
Speaker Yeah, well, um. We’d be out of the party. And get late.
Speaker And.
Speaker Lina was not a drinker. Lina didn’t drink, Lenny and I made up from. And as the evening would come sort of come to an end, wherever we were, that was always a piano. And Lenny, who was famed for his conducting. For his arranging. Would sit down and start to play a little piano and Lina would sit there and stare at him, could be an hour. She loved to watch. And here, let me play piano.
Speaker I need to get you to repeat that, because the sound in here is just, all right, let’s do it.
Speaker Sorry. Uh.
Speaker We’d all be out of the party, be late, Linda didn’t drink, Lenny and I took care of that and. As the evening would just about come to an end, there was always a piano around.
Speaker And Lenny will always find his way to the piano and just start playing and, you know, he was famed conductor and the fame the Ranger, but little love to hear him and watch him play the piano, he just get lost there. And that was a wonderful times.
Speaker OK, last question about the lady and her music.
Speaker The llena that you saw in the 50s. The way she dealt with the audience and keeping them at this distance. How was she different from the way that you saw in the media?
Speaker Well, the the change, not musically. But the change in Lina from the early days. When I worked with them to the that I saw on stage. In a sense, not just a concert, it was literally a one woman show was two different people because it just seemed that Lena.
Speaker Was kind of she she was freed, I mean, Lina was free, Lina was able to deal with with things she could talk about herself, which she never did in the early days. She just did her work. And and I was I think I and the audiences were as fascinated by the things that Lena had to say about growing up and about a musical career and her marriage and children as they there was fascinating and just as fascinated as listening to her sing and watching her sing before she really blossomed and was able to share that with the audience.
Speaker Did you ever met her mother? Yes. What was she like?
Speaker It’s tough.
Speaker I just did the same thing as a mother, Lena’s mother. Was tough and. She you know, she she worshipped her father.
Speaker But from what I gather, he was kind of a dude swinger. And the mother was. From what I gather, it was disciplinarian, kind of strict, you know. And tough and so I think, Linda. Had the best of both.
Speaker Do you think we know a man who Lena has mellowed?
Speaker Uh. Has Lina mellowed?
Speaker Yeah, I think she’s mellowed. As a performer, more open with the audience, giving more, taking more, but Lenar, as a as a person, as an individual. I look in her eyes and still see. Shades of of the old Lena.
Speaker Yeah, not forgetting. Remembering what it was like.
Speaker Well, I don’t. Hope she doesn’t have never lose that.
Speaker Did you ever see anyone who, you know, was very vulnerable, that’s why she she developed this facade, that’s why she got tough, that’s why she put on this suit of armor, because she was so vulnerable. I mean, I don’t want to destroy the Lena Horne legend, but down deep, you know, she was a pussycat. And I think, as I said during the years, because of the life that she lived and things that she did and the things that people did to her.
Speaker Foster to, in a sense, become the leader that we talk about.
