Speaker So tell me how you came to meet Norman Rockwell. Come to Model Farm.
Speaker It’s pretty interesting. The local school. We lived here in town and our kids went to school here. And our oldest daughter thought that she like to be an artist. So one day they had one evening they had a career night at a local high school and they had doctors and dentists and lawyers and crooks.
Speaker They use a professional purpose purposes they could get. They brought these guys in.
Speaker So an artist or Norman Rockwell, ideal thing. And so he agreed. So day two more. So I took Sherri over to meet Norma. I said, Mr. Rockwell. This is my daughter Sherri. And she’s like, do you think, ah, is Hirshfield. Do you like to draw? And she said, yes. He said, well, draw and draw and draw some more.
Speaker That was his advice. That was that was his counseling for the night. So a dismissed sherry.
Speaker And then you said to me, what do you do for a living?
Speaker And I said, well, I’m a competitor of that rag you paint for science.
Speaker So tell me again how you came to meet Norman Rockwell.
Speaker OK. We live here in town at the time, and we had three kids in school.
Speaker And our oldest daughter, Sherry, thought that she’d like to be an artist. So the school one night was having a career night and they had doctors and dentists and lawyers and some shrinks. They had a bunch of professional people. And what better profession that art in? Norman Rockwell lives in town. It’s great to have him. And he agreed. He said, yeah, you do this. So I took Sherri over, introduced her to Mr. Rockwell and said, my daughter, Sherri. And she thinks that art might be her field. Do you like to draw? And she said yes. And so he said, well, draw, draw and draw some more and you might make it.
Speaker That was his advice. That was his counseling for the night.
Speaker Was a riot. So he dismissed Jerry.
Speaker Then he said to me, what do you do for a living? I said, well, I’m a competitor of that rag. You paint for you at the time I was working with Look magazine. And of course, he was the postcard guy. And he thought this was pretty funny. Chuckle And I went further. I said, well, you know, if you could use me sometime on a Saturday Evening Post cover, that would be great, because then I could tell her, Curtis, punishing people that they can’t sell the their magazine without having help from the look model. And he thought that was pretty funny also. And so I realized then that this guy does have a sense of humor. All right.
Speaker So some time went by and he agreed that we said, do you have a son? Yeah, I suppose he looks like you. And I said a little bit.
Speaker Well, he agreed that he would use me and the son Jim, which he did. He did something for finality trust in Philadelphia. And. Took Serai several years, went by before I ever saw anything. I went to fight ality in Philadelphians, said Norman Rockwell did something you guys wants, what is it? And the person dug up some flyers and there was that picture. Well, this is to prove that Norman could do anything he wanted to do with a paint brush. You know, he put freckles on or he take freckles off. He could make you redheaded if he wanted to or whatever you want to do.
Speaker Hardly look like our son. But anyway, he was a star.
Speaker And then he said, well, he thought that he could use me on a post cover. And the post cover that he was thinking about was the jury scene where all of these jurors were in a room. He was out of town and I was out of town. Oh, Sarver’s doing Naval Reserve training duty. And some local yokel got took it upon himself to be the procure of the jurors. Well, I was out of town. He didn’t know that I had spoken to Norman or Norman had been in touch with me. So he forgot, you know, he just picked his friends.
Speaker He picked eleven or twelve guys, whatever number he needed of his own. And when the thing came out, I saw it because Norman told me that he was thinking about this, but he apologized. He said, well, I was out of town and so-and-so picked these people. And I think about it. I was disappointed. And so I blew it. There was my chance to be on the post cover and I’m on bail of the Lord. This over the Curtis Publishing Company people. So some more time went by. That was the end of that. But then I had a cold up one day and said, Frank.
Speaker Yeah. A visit. Wow. I was just leaving to go visit my mother down in Orange County, New York.
Speaker Told him what he said was to do this post cover. I’m working on. I don’t think he got the phone down before I was over there at the studio. And they’re going to blow this on Zeppo over there. And that’s how we got started on the family tree. He did use me. He was fun. Doing what he would do is put several different hats on like that.
Speaker And then he would say, look stern or look disappointed or happy, smiling or whatever. And so there’s a.
Speaker Expression in each one of those faces. That was posed. But you’re probably wondering why. Why would he use me? Oh, he was interesting. If you have a chance to read my adventures as an illustrator by Norman and his son was a ghostwriter. Well, anyway, they did this thing and he devotes a whole chapter, says I paint another post cover, and he devoted a whole chapter as to why he chose me. The magazine Rap Over and Mumfie Zali and has a strong face that I think I can use as well. I have an unusually wide bridge right here. Perhaps you can notice it now. But if you look at the family tree, you’ll see that every generation has got this big space here. And this is a characteristic that he used and passed down. So another interesting part of that family tree is that I am the male model of every generation except one. And he painted himself as a preacher. Norman liked to get the actor lost a while himself. So he decided put himself in there as a preacher.
Speaker He made me his wife, which is which is pretty funny.
Speaker The original I had a bonnet and everything, quite feminine. At any rate, that’s the story of the family tree.
Speaker So you actually had to wear a bunch of outfits.
Speaker I have to wear abaya for the female. Have you been. I wore a hat for every one of those male guys in there. Each generation there. And if I’m remiss if I forget, maybe I didn’t do everyone, but he is so good. He could make whatever he wanted if he needed a Confederate cab. He looked at a Confederate cab someplace and then he he could pay it. He could do wonders with this sort of thing.
Speaker How did he get you to kind of play or act, the different people? I mean, I’ve heard that he really was kind of like a movie director that he actually directed. He likely. What, an actor. And did you find out?
Speaker Yes. Yeah. He would tell you. And in the case of the family tree. He told me, I want you to look like a determined.
Speaker Well, the first guy down there is this pirate that just captured a ship and he took his his prize, the winch off a ship and they started their family.
Speaker Well, he wanted to make it look like a pretty happy guy. You know, I can only have a captured ship, but I got this lady is my prize.
Speaker And and some of the other situations, the Confederate versus Yankee soldier, you know, you just have to look, you’re pretty determined. You could be brothers. And there were lots of civil war brothers were fighting against each other. Well, then you’d have to give some kind of facial expression that this is my brother over here. I’m about to kill him or shoot him anyway. So you try to get that facial. Like, I don’t really want to do this.
Speaker Yeah. He was good. We did a Boy’s Life magazine and a Boy Scout calendar one year. It’s called homecoming. And he was very direct or like with that. This is my son is coming home from Scout camp. I’m welcoming him home and my wife is in the background. She’s so delighted to see her son back home. And I think Norman’s wife is coming down the steps as a dog.
Speaker Well, you want to be sure, you know, hey, this guy is just come back from three long weeks to camp. You haven’t seen him one. How would you look if you’re so happy to see him?
Speaker You’re not throwing your arms around him. I have my arms on his shoulders. However, welcoming him, you know.
Speaker So, yeah, he would. He could tell you what he wanted and what he didn’t want. Did they ever got testy? Not ever with me. I’m sorry.
Speaker Not ever what? Nobody heard the question.
Speaker No.
Speaker He probably only just once. You know, he did something and he was given the use of a car for a year.
Speaker Was a Lincoln Mercury or something like this, you know? And he was given the use of this car. Now he’s going to do something for Fido. He trusts that he’s going to use the car. And I’m going to be a salesman in the car. Well, he brought the car down to a studio.
Speaker Then it was over, you know, the other part of town and a car was parked there. Now we’ve got to get this where the light is, right where Norman wants it.
Speaker Sighs Give me the keys. I drive a sucker. I can park that wherever you want it. Well, he was reluctant for a second and he thought, oh, that’s a great idea. I’m getting a lot of help from this guy. So we parked the car where we wanted it and we shot the was another flier for finality.
Speaker Trust.
Speaker Do you think he liked working with models that he seemed to enjoy that or what?
Speaker I think that he did.
Speaker I’m sorry to say. You think maybe that was because somebody hears that question, but give us one second regroup. Yeah. There’s nobody heard my question. So if you just kind of. Yeah. Just fall off the stairs.
Speaker I was fast before I behaved towards models and how he seemed to.
Speaker I thought he was a very humble guy. Humility. You just let go of him and his skived.
Speaker Great. I mean, is it especially in the art world? Yeah. He’s probably the world’s greatest illustrator at at that time. And you would think that he could just command and dictate and sort of run things.
Speaker But he was he was always in the background, the little guy saying, oh, if you don’t mind or would you he and he always wanted to pay you. People often say you get a residuals when. So, no, he paid the models and he had a sort of a standard fee of like twenty dollars. It was all done by photographs, as you probably well know. Bill Scovel and Lamon took these pictures and and and Kalasz, I guess, did some form, too. But then no one would do a charcoal from the picture. And then he would do an oil from the charcoal once he got it where he wanted it. And I said to him once. I don’t want any money. Well, we got to it was Norman and Frank, his eyes. No, no, I don’t want any money. I just want to tell everybody I posed for Norman Rockwell. That’s good enough for me. Oh, no. He insisted so he would write out his 20 dollar check. Go to it foolishly. I never had one photocopied. He’s going to live forever in hell. No rush this. And all of a sudden he’s gone. And I don’t have a copy. I do have a few little notes from him that are. They began, Dear Frank. And I’m sorry. At one point it got to where? In town here anyway. If you had something you wanted autographed, you didn’t have to go to the studio yourself or you didn’t go to the studio, went to the house. You were back in the kitchen and you put a book down there or whatever you had any picture, print or whatever. You put it down with what you thought you’d like on there. And next day you come back to the kitchen and there would be done this. Great. Well, one of our big accounts at that time was Catedral High School in Springfield, Mass. And in the library, they had one of the Rockwell albums, a big thing, and they wondered if I could get Mr. Rockwell to autograph that for sure. Give it to me.
Speaker So I took this thing over their back door and the kitchen table there and he autographed it, picked up next. And there’s a note in it. Frank, I’m sorry if this isn’t just right, but if it isn’t, come back. Tell me and I’ll try to do better next time. I mean, can you imagine? Here’s a guy is his great illustrator and he’s sort of apologizing, saying to me, I’ll do better than next time. How could he do better there?
Speaker One other little incident might.
Speaker Back up my fact that I thought he had a sense of humor because it was a guy that lived in town by the name of Tom Kerry. And Tom was going to be one of Norman’s models. Tom lived in a house that was heated and lit by kerosene. And if you know anything about kerosene, there’s a lot of fallout that goes with it. There’s black soot sort of just drifts down on you, especially if you don’t pay attention. Well, Tom, apparently he didn’t pay attention. So he was very Sudi looking very dark.
Speaker And he had a hat that would put my romance hat to shame. This is a real crinkled up, beautiful thing. He had a long coat with a few rips and tears, and it was down almost to the ground. And what he would do is he would end the horse and wagon. He would take his horse some way and go down to the railroad station and pick up the mail and then bring it up to the post office. And they would sort of put it in the boxes there. So normally Jews don’t carry post cover. I think with the post cover. But anyway, one of the locals saw Norman walk on the street one day and he said, Mr. Rockwell is you use time, carry on a post cover.
Speaker And he said, yeah, well, what do you do about the dirt? Norman said, I just painted right over it, which I said, yeah, he does. I did have a sense of humor.
Speaker Yeah. He could chuckle at things. In fact. He was right at times. Now we were we’re pushing for a new school here in town. Little Williams High School outlived its usefulness. And so we want to do school. And we had a committee and the committee thought we ought to get some well-known, influential people in town to back up our desire for this new school. So I asked Norman if they could use his name. And he said I’d be all right. So they used his name here and there.
Speaker Now comes time to vote for this referendum. So we’re going to go vote. And late Mrs. Daly is going down to pick up Norman. She picks him up and drive up to the polls. And on the way up, he says no. What are we voting for? What is this? And she said this. That’s a new school year for public school.
Speaker We don’t want that damn Zain doing now here. He said, yes, you could use his name. And now he’s saying, no, we don’t want it. Definitely.
Speaker So he he could get in a bind like that. And it would be funny. Yeah, I’d be pretty fired up. Some people are thinking, good lord, guys, so use my name. And now he’s saying we don’t want this.
Speaker I mean, he was trying to be funny here.
Speaker Oh, I think it was just natural. It just came out that way. He no, I don’t think he really ever had to try.
Speaker I think whatever he said or did was just natural or natural.
Speaker Did the real Norman Rockwell fit his public image, do you think? I mean, once even the way he seemed to be to people who didn’t know one.
Speaker Well, I would I would think so. I think. Yeah. If, you know, I mean, you met him, right, for the first time, if you were introduced to him that he had this sort of deep little voice. He wasn’t a very big guy, but he had a kind of a different voice. And he would just say, you know, glad to meet you. How are you or how how’s it going? Something like that. And you just felt at ease with him. I don’t think anybody. Well, I suppose some people didn’t think that. Well, this is a great illustrator and I should look up to him. Oh, I know this kind of thing. But he didn’t want that.
Speaker He just wanted you to know Norman Rockwell going back to the family tree just for people who don’t know anything about the painting. I mean, just tell me what the idea of the paintings must be.
Speaker Yeah. I started with this pirate capturing a ship and taking this girl as his prize, and then he raised a family. And so each generation has this nose in it. And so it goes up to each. Forgotten how many generations there are now, but. Let’s see it be one, two and three, four, five, six and seven.
Speaker Probably say about eight generations and the guys at the top of the tree. There is that the last business like a politician or something? And so the tree is just a depiction of a family tree. Could be anybody’s family tree. But this is the way a family tree goes. And these are this is a characteristic that happens to be present in each generation. And so it took them with a rancher and then the civil war people, Hayes species generations out. So I guess it was first the pirate, the rancher three. And then the Civil War guys. And then a couple of business guys. And then a little boy up on the top of it.
Speaker Sounds like he lucked out. I mean, it must’ve been a really fun one to work on.
Speaker Oh, it was indeed. And if you have a chance to read that adventures as an illustrator, that chapter and I paint another post cover as goes into great detail. How Godi you must have done Treyvaud charcoals before he ever got to the one that he really liked. And he, he would put it away for a while and just want to give up on it. It was a long drawn out process and hard work. He put a lot of time effort in that thing and it turned out to be pretty popular.
Speaker That’s probably one of his better.
Speaker That’s mean a lot to to have fun on that, right?
Speaker Oh, yes. It means a great deal to me and to my family. Our three children and we have seven grandchildren that know about it. Also, we have a great grandson, son, who is about to. He’s got to know about it. He’s just right enough now. We can tell him who says this as your great grandfather here. Yeah, for those people and then having met some people and then the people from MISCA College, which did this very nice thing in the alumni quarterly, the spring quarterly of this year. So I must have gotten great exposure in addition to all of that. Then the Good Morning America thing was quick, but it was there. And the when MassMutual and Connected community, when the Rockwell Museum sponsored this Rockwell post cover thing at the old statehouse in Hartford. And that was great. All of this post covers were in there and the family tree was the featured post cover and the original family tree thing was there. And I was asked to come partake in this press release, which was fun to do.
Speaker So, yeah, I really I enjoyed it. It was fun to do. He was fun to work with and for he had a sense of humor. But he also if it was 10, 30 of its 10, 30, he means 10, 30.
Speaker Does it mean core eleven or some other nonsense. He was he was all business, but it was a fun business. It wasn’t any crack the whip or that sort of thing. I liked it very much. Sorry to see him go.
Speaker Did you know him in his later years? Oh, yeah.
Speaker I knew him right up until just about to the bitter end. Really? I think maybe last year, too. We didn’t ask for anything. Any autographs. Sort. Because he was. And failing health. And it just didn’t seem right to invade his privacy or to ask him or say. Can all the autographs I need. God, you have so funny brown. Big loaded this Boy Scout calendar and the boy’s life thing. And Brown and Big Love sent Norman. She’s got the. Must be about three feet wide. Five or six feet high.
Speaker All little prince and different sizes. This Boy Scout calendar and a boy’s life thing. And he said to me, you want to sing? And I said, Sure. I said, you know, autograph it. So I’d autograph my mother very early.
Speaker Let’s pick up the pace a little bit on the last couple. Just increase.
Speaker OK. So tell me about that, about the autograph, anything.
Speaker Tell me that story again. Oh, yeah. We did this for Brown Big Low, a Boy Scout counter and a boy’s Life magazine. And Roland Bigelow sent Norman this big sheet of maybe three to four feet wide, five or six feet long. All various sizes of the homecoming, the post.com, the thing, the Boy Scout thing. So he said, you want to stay here. You want to sing. And I said, well, yeah, if you’d autograph it for me. And he said I’d autograph my mother, you could drag her in here. And he proceeded to autograph a few of those for me.
Speaker He also did. One, he did a I have a photograph of a charcoal of the family tree of an original old thing, and he showed us to I what you’re saying. So if you’d autograph it. And he said yes. And quite often he would say to my dear friend or my very best friend, Frank Dolson.
Speaker Friendship has meant a lot. And it was very good indeed. Knew.
Speaker And then when I got into management magazine business and I had to put out a bulletin, a weekly bulletin to inspire and generate enthusiasm on the part of my sales. And I said to him once, I said, Norman, I just got this promotion and I need a masthead. And I wondered if he could do something for me. And he thought that he could. All I wanted was a peddler away. And he did do a peddler wagon once. But when we were called the Yankee peddler soon, I asked him if he could do this. And he said yes. He thought he could.
Speaker And about a week or so, I get a dear John from say, dear friend.
Speaker Sorry to let you down again. Apparently he let me down once before. I don’t even remember. He said sorry to let you down again.
Speaker And he suggested I may schedule was just too busy for him to take time out and to try to do something. And he suggested a couple of area guys that are great printers and whatever. Which I didn’t bother to follow up on. But at any rate, yeah, I must have five or six nice little notes from him.
Speaker And we do have an original real original, which is about the size of a postage stamp. And he came over to the house one time before we had ever done anything. And he came or. And via his home. Nobody wanted to come in and talk to her about the possible using of German for this painting he was going to do. And so he sat down and took a piece of scrap paper there and pencil it out. Here’s the boat guy fisherman Mr.. In here. Here’s a boy. And he just did all this by pencil and left it with us. Foolishly, I never get that autographed either.
Speaker But that’s a room as an original. That’s the only really original.
Speaker People frequently say, do you have any of his stuff, any of his originals? No. Is almost impossible to get. I mean, they wouldn’t. Nobody would sell. They wouldn’t sell a family tree to me if I willing to pay him three million dollars for it. So it’s it’s almost impossible. So it’s easy to say. No, no. Too hard to come by. That’s that’s it.
Speaker I just want to clarify one thing about what you were doing for a look when you you know, just to make clear why you had that feeling about doing the post cover. We didn’t really explain what you were actually doing for a walk.
Speaker Oh, okay. Well, I had given up teaching physical education and coaching sports and went into the publishing business. And I went with Craw Kaliya or Collier’s magazine. And Carlos Folan went kaput. And look, took the educational division over. And so all of us that were with Kraul Carter, who are now with look. And that’s how I happened to be able to look at the time that I met Norman.
Speaker I was a supervisor with. Well, it was in circulation. Big field was circulation. We tried to increase the circulation not only of look, but a whole bunch of magazines and we would work with kids at school groups. That’s how I got involved with the people at Cathedral High School, too.
Speaker And so that’s why, just in brief, you just say that, you know, when you met Norman, you were working for a look and whatever. Just give me a short version.
Speaker Yeah, well, what I did when I met Norman, I was.
Speaker I was working with Look magazine in their educational division. As a supervisor of a territory or district with about 18 men in it. That’s what it amounted to. We work with schools, churches, Girl Scouts. Cub Scouts and and boy, some Boy Scouts to put all kinds of organizations that want to raise funds. And so that’s why I thought I said to Norman, well, if you could use me, I could push look vs. the post.
Speaker I can say they can’t sell the post without help from the people.
Speaker Right. I mean, does it seem strange to be sitting here in a studio with us?
Speaker Well, yeah, because, you know, I never knew this studio was or any other part of town. And it was a different kind of a feeling when you went into it.
Speaker He had this great big press bowl full of pipes. He was an ardent Håvard pipe smoker and I am was also so we would I’d pick up a few his old pipes, I could check them out. And he was good about it, too. Yeah. In fact, he does a few of his pictures with his pipe in his mouth, so he was almost never seen without a pipe. They miss him. Yes, very much, yeah, yeah, it was a real good friend. He’s an honest friend. I could say that. Norman Rockwell was my friend and he autographed things for me, indicating that I was his friend or that we were friends. Oh, yeah, it’s tough.
