Fred Ball: We all worked all of the time keeping track. Lucy kept track of the house and all the cleaning and the and some of the cooking and so forth. She was in charge of that sort of thing. And I was so doing whatever she wanted to be done. And even when Cleo was there, which was part of the time we all work because Didi was working, she was working, and I had to get in a streetcar and go to Jamestown. What? You know? So they had like 12 hour days grap I had to do the same thing. And he was like a 12 hour day and even one my stepfather was there, Ed Peterson. It was a 12 hour day. And on top of that, Didi took care of all the cooking and canning and everything else. It took place in those days. And. Grandpa grew a garden every year and took a lot of time, and then we had chickens and pigeons and pigs and, you know, on and on and on. So everybody worked. And I think that was probably. One of the most important. Parts of the, uh, of our, uh. A development.
Interviewer: Can you tell me that again, or do you want to collect your thoughts?
Fred Ball: I’d sure like to get off the chair and go collect myself that because.
Interviewer: It’s the childhood and funny moments. And obviously, we’re interested in hearing about your relationship with Lucy when you were a boy and she was a girl. So maybe you could think about what kind of a sister she was to you. Was your sister, did she?
Fred Ball: She was bossy as Fisher. She. She was always upfront that make it a difference for when or where. But. And she and she tease me. Do you know the way that I can boss me, the way that an older sister would do if she was aggressive. And she always was aggressive from the very beginning and which she turned out to be the girl, the woman that she was because she was aggressive. I see that in retrospect.
Interviewer: And where do you think that naturally aggressive quality comes from?
Fred Ball: I think it comes from the genes. Her father, her mother, her grandfather. Far as I know, everybody in my family, including my father’s brother and his kids, my cousins, I think they were all aggressive. They were all successful. And I think it’s just part of the family inheritance. I guess you call. But she never changed in that respect. Once she. When she won, we finally, because of an accident that happened with Grandpa, lost the home and, you know, we had to break up and sell, Rhonda moved to Jamestown and change our life entirely, which included not only grandpa’s life, my mother’s life, but Lucy’s life. And she was still aggressive. And that’s the reason I think that’s the reason why she did what she did while she was in Jamestown and why she went to New York and why she succeeded in New York. You know, one step at a time.
Interviewer: All right. So let’s go back to the time and Celeron before the accident had happened. Just describe to me what your in Lucy’s life was like. I understand you had a lot of time on your own because your mom was working rand grandpa was working 12 hour days and you kids more or less to carry yourself to some degree.
Fred Ball: Well, yes, a great degree. We took care of ourselves. I was always involved because with my grandfather, because of the chores that had to be taken care of. And I was always involved in the garden and bringing up in his matter of fact, I used to harvest from the garden and get my weald my big cart and go down and sell vegetables and so forth, you know. And Lucy was off with her girlfriends. And I don’t have too much knowledge about what she was doing, but I know she was always the leader of the pack, whichever pack she was with at the time. And yeah, she. I know that was a fact. And then when we moved to Jamestown, then the same thing happened. You know, she was the leader of the pack again. And she had she had girlfriends that she picked up that she knew in Jamestown. And then because of the relationship that my mother had with a person in New York.
Interviewer: And if it had, I don’t want to go to New York yet. It. We sort of paint a picture just what it was like to live in Celeron at that time. It’s a rural existence. You talked about the chickens and the toys and so on and the notion that, I mean, if you were to describe your life to your grandchildren, they might say, wow, that’s a hard life. You had to do a lot of hard work and Lucy had to clean house and wash dishes. That’s hard. And yet somehow neither of you seem to resent it. I’m interested in that. Can you tell me a little bit about that work and how you think it affected you throughout your life?
Fred Ball: Well, I would I would say that. The. The best thing that could have happened would be the responsibilities that we all had individually and each one of us had a different responsibility and not that we weren’t 100 percent of the time, we did have some recreational activities that we all engaged in. Mine were of a kind and hers were of a kind. And we were active in those things because our family promoted. That activity. And it was a. It was a part of our. Part of our lively part, part of our our life.
Interviewer: So what did Lucy do for fun?
Fred Ball: Well, for one thing, the Celeron there was a park called Celeron Park. That or they had a dance hall dance pavilion. And that’s where the steam ships came up the up the lake and picked the people up at the end of the pier. And and with this dance pavilion, Lucy was always there with her friends and dancing and so forth because she was active and I was always working it in the Soran Park. I did everything in a park, including clean birdcages and mixed hamburgers. And but that was a way of life. Then in the wintertime, they went to Lakewood, freeze over. We had skating rinks and sail skating in. And my stepfather used to work where they cut ice and put it up in the warehouse so they could deliver ice to our refrigerators all summer long. That was all we were involved with, all of those things.
Interviewer: And how would you describe your sister when she was out there on the ice rink or in the middle of the dance floor? Was she somebody people took notice of that she wanted people to pay attention to her. Did you want to be the center of attention back when she was a girl?
Fred Ball: Well, I presume. I don’t know. I wasn’t that close to her personal personal relationships with her girlfriends or because I was not of an age where I was participating in a in a peer ballroom dance hall, you know. But I know she was always active and I mean active, whether it be dancing or swimming or skating or whatever. She was always active on all of those things. Everyone.
Interviewer: And how about trauma? He’s talked about going to hear a monologue is called Julius Tanen Perform. Well, that excited her.
Fred Ball: You get it? Yes. You’re getting into an area. There is an area that I was not familiar with, and that was her personal personal relationships were drama, drama or does the school plays that she was in and so forth. Because our age difference at that point was such that I wasn’t aware of the the things that she was doing in those in those areas.
Interviewer: So when you two were home and she was in charge of the house and you were her lieutenant, can you describe First Lieutenant, you describe. How did she cheesey what did he teach you about what? What did you teach her back about? What was that relationship?
Fred Ball: Well, we didn’t have any any disagreement that amounted to any anything. No animosities. Bossy. She was in charge. She was. But I accepted that. And we got along well in that department. Sure. There were a little, you know, hotel kids are kids. And like, I was only eight, nine, ten, whatever. And she was four years older. So nothing abnormal. But we we knew we had something to do. And she was the director and we did it including her.
Interviewer: And and was there ever a time where you guys goofed off and you didn’t get your chores done?
Fred Ball: No. Probably so, but not that I know. No. No particular situation that I could. It’s outstanding in my memory. No. No, we are. We always. We always really basically enjoyed what we were doing because we were very close knit, the whole family. For example, in the wintertime, we would sit around us in those days, you had stoves, big stoves that you put wood in or coal, whatever. And we would do our evenings were taken up by sitting around the stove and bringing the cat with our kittens in. And another thing that was important, it was part of our family life was music. It so happened that Dedee was quite accomplished at the piano. And. Lucy was inclined and she got one through the school. I think a saxophone and my grandfather was adept at a mouth organ and the bones, you know, I don’t know if you know what bones are, but there’s something ear rattle. And they really started out bones. And then the sore he would take us put the saw between his legs. And we made music. Now, that wasn’t uncommon. That was a. In the wintertime. That was an activity in the parlor where the piano was. And it was very important. Because that that said a, I guess it set the stage for Lucy because she. She was aware of the fact that her mother, Didi, was actually the organist. This is before pictures were with sound and Didi was the organist. The piano player during the picture in the theater. So there was a background there that was very important.
Interviewer: Maybe you could just say it again and say that this silent movie days before, you know, that people might not understand.
Fred Ball: Well, it was important because during the silent movie, days before there was sound, there had to have somebody at the organ or the piano playing the interludes and they the highs and the lows of the picture. And that was the 80s job because she was accomplished. And in that particular area, musically. And so I think there was a carry over there. So Lucy became involved. As I say, she would use she would play the saxophone not very well, but at least she’d play it. And Grandpa would play the mouth organ. And he was quite accomplished with the mouth organ.
Interviewer: What did you play?
Fred Ball: Well, I don’t play anything, I was too young to have a knot later on, I got into that deal because when the school gave out instruments to teach the children music, I happened to stand at the end of the line waiting for the instruments and I wound up with a cello. So that wasn’t. But anyhow, I did. I studied the cello and I had to travel from Sol round to Jamestown to go to the music teacher and all at MIT and love that cello back and forth. And it was a chore, but I, I did do it and. And I was in a high school band and so forth. But that’s incidental because Lucille had the same inclination to pursue that not only the well to pursue the music side of social life.
Interviewer: All right, so I think you did a wonderful job of painting this family in winter in the parlor playing music, it’s a marvelous image. Now there is this terrible accident that happened. Yes. I guess that world was shattered by that event.
Fred Ball: That was completely shattered. So I don’t know about shattered, but changed. Completely changed.
Interviewer: So can you tell me.
Fred Ball: With respect to the time when we, under grandpa’s supervision, had a little rifle practice, so a 22 rifle practice in the backyard? I had a a girlfriend. Not I was Soucy. I was about 12 at the time. And the girlfriend I don’t know how old she was. Probably eleven or twelve. She she was somebody I knew from my work and saw Ron Park and she came up and we had grandpa was there and we were shooting the rifle and Cleo was there and a little neighbor next door was there. They were sitting on the ground and the girl not having any knowledge of shooting a rifle and so forth. It stood there when it came her turn and she wavered and wavered and wavered and wavered. And she finally shot. She finally pulled the trigger at the same time that the little boy next door by the name of Erickson jumped up to go home. I think his mother was calling, I’m not sure, but he jumped up and ran in front and the rifle shot. The bullet went right through him and and five years later, he died. But in any event, that accident changed our lives entirely. And Lucy, by the way, was not there at that particular incident and she was not knowledgeable about anything specific that happened at that particular time. But Cleo was there and I was there. And but what happened was that grandpa lost the home and everything else. So we split up.
Interviewer: We go to that. Can you explain just briefly why he lost the home? Did he have to go to jail? Was there.
Fred Ball: As a matter of fact, he did go to jail. But jail in those days was a different he wasn’t jailed, you know, per say, but he had to go to the county seat. And Masvidal, which was it, up to the northwestern end of Chautauqua Lake, which was a county seat, and that he had to stay within one mile of the jailhouse, etc.. I used to go up there and stay with him on occasion, but not for long, but for some time. And the Eriksson’s, of course, were, you know, had a lot of medical bills and so forth, which grandpa paid. But in doing so, he had we had we he lost a home and he of course, he never could repay for the loss of a kid’s life, because I think about five years later, the boy died. As a result of that.
Interviewer: So tell me, you all sort of dispersed. Where did everybody wind up after you lost your.
Fred Ball: After that incident? Was the rifle at the at the Celeron home? As I recall, Dedee, we moved to Jamestown because Dedi was working in Jamestown. She was a sales clerk in a company called the Marcus Company, which they were selling ladies apparel and. So we moved to Jamestown and we had an apartment. And my stepfather and Didi’s and I lived at a place there called a Wilcox apartment grap I think at that point. I don’t really know where he went. Someplace in Jamestown, some friend of his. He stayed with and we. And Lucy. I’m not sure where Lucy was at that time. She didn’t live with us there. But I think she she might have gone wood with our stepfather’s mother. Grandma Petersen might have stayed there for a while until she made arrangements with Didi to go to New York to live with Didi’s friend in New York. Now, Didi, Lucy was in Jamestown probably a year or two during that time and. I don’t know too much about. We were still close. Little Lucy at that time was going with they were they, young man? Johnny DeVita, DeVita or DeVito? DeVita. I think an Italian family. And we we had a close relationship with that Italian families. Matter of fact, I remember going down there would Lucille to their house to share one of their Italian dinners, which was fantastic. I’ll never forget it the rest of my life. But she was she was active again. And at the high school and so forth and. I can’t go much further than that because right along there someplace, she she went to New York.
Interviewer: Well, it’s interesting. I think that. It seems like your mother had a lot of confidence in you kids that she would let Lucy more or less out from under her wing and go and do her own thing. It’s an unusual relationship. I think at least today it seems like an unusual.
Fred Ball: Well, by today’s standards, there was a very unusual relationship with respect were between Lucille and Didi. You don’t find well, put it another way. It’s the exception today to find that relationship. But Didi did have confidence in Lucille’s ambition and energy and drive and knew there was a potential. And there was a friend of Betis who was in prior years, her hairdresser. And she she sent her to to New York to live under that woman’s supervision. And Lucille, of our own accord when she got there, got into she worked for a company you might never have heard of a girl by a woman by the name of had Carnegie. She was a hat manufacturer, designer, whatever. And that was that’s where she started. And after she got in New York,.
Interviewer: I want to stop you because I don’t quite want to go to New York. Yes. And I want to ask you another question about your mother. I find it so interesting that you and Lucy, I gather, called her Didi even when you were little. Is that accurate? And was that unusual to find your mother? Mom.
Fred Ball: I don’t know about it being unusual, but we never called her a mother or a mom. She was DeDe. Period.
Interviewer: And why do you think that she wanted to call her by her first name?
Fred Ball: Well, probably because I couldn’t pronounce it Deserie. No, she was always DEEDI to everybody. And I don’t know what the origination was. I have no idea. But she was only DeDe.
Interviewer: And how would you describe Lucille’s? You mentioned the DEEDI trusted Lusi and believed in her ambition. How would you describe Lucy as a girl now? Her feelings about her mother?
Fred Ball: Well. I would say that. First thing DeDe didn’t have total control over Lucille. She she could not relegate Lucille to any subservient position or status or attitude. Lucille was our own was our own person. And I don’t care what department she was in or who she was, what she was up front. And that that she exhibited that all of her life. With all of the things that she did in those days, we’re talking about one where we’re young. And also through all of her business career and so forth.
Interviewer: And was she in her independence and in her unwillingness to be under anybody’s thumb? Was she considered a little bit whild?
Fred Ball: By some people? Depends on where you were standing, of course.
Interviewer: Can you tell me that.
Fred Ball: Yes. No, I wasn’t I wasn’t old enough to get into any conversations with adults as to what Lucille’s position or attitude or drive was. But I have I know from discussions with the dedi in subsequent years that Lucy by some people was considered wild. And I don’t think she was ever considered unruly, but she was considered upfront and wild and and and in front of a driver. She was always a driver. Even that, even when we were back when she was managing the household and I had to make the beds. She was a driver and she never in all her life, she never changed. In that respect.
Interviewer: All right, so we’re in New York now, and she asks you to come and live with her.
Fred Ball: Well, yes, because right about in there, Didi, we gave up the airport, Didi gave up the apartment there in Jamestown, and she went to Washington, D.C. and she worked at a department store in the middle of northwest Washington, D.C.. Lucy was in New York and I was living with my stepfather’s mother, Grandma Petersen, and going to two high school. And Lucy Lucille was in New York and said, Dad, why don’t you come in, you know, finish high school here, which I did. I went to New York and we had an apartment, I think it was on Fifty Third Street near Madison Park, someplace in there. One of those tenement houses. And I had to go to high school on what’s called a hair on high school on Forty Third Street East. And I couldn’t pack it. It was just too, too far out of anything that I was used to. I couldn’t stand the kids and the teachers or I was getting nothing out of it. So I said I’m you know, I’m going back to I’m going to go down to Washington and live with Didi, which I did. I mean, yeah, down to Washington, D.C., Liberdade, which I did that.
Interviewer: What was that like?
Fred Ball: Well, when I was in living in New York with Lucy. As I say, I think it was fifty third street in a tenement house. She was working and taking care of her business. And I was going to school. I had to walk all away from there down to forty six street to the Heron High School. So, you know, it took my day was completely taken up with schooling and I didn’t really know for the house you what was or where she was going or what she did. All I knew was that once in a while I’d see her back, back in the apartment. Ledwith We’d have dinner. And that’s what it boiled down to, to like it. As I have stated before, on many occasions, I just couldn’t handle New York City and at that high school and that sort of thing. So I went back to Washington, D.C. to live with Didi, who was down there working at a at a one of the department stores.
Interviewer: And was it your sense that Lucy was working hard and earning decent money during that time?
Fred Ball: Well, I don’t know about how much she was earning. She was paying the rent, as I sure wasn’t, and how she got by. I wasn’t not, you know, privy to that that part of our relationship.
Interviewer: And do you have a sense I told you on the telephone that somebody told us a story, that part of how she made ends meet was sometimes she went out to dinner with men where she got paid to have dinner with them, not sex or anything like that, but to be a companion. Just in fact, like she did in the movie Stage Door. That’s what her character did. Is that do you have a sense of whether that story’s.
Fred Ball: With respect to any of the allegations or comments or descriptions of her activity on a personal basis? I was not I was not knowledgeable about any of that. I had no idea if I did at the time. I certainly don’t remember any anything now because I was I was too involved in and what I was doing in the school. I was so disappointed in the whole New York City and the high school and so forth that, you know, I was just not aware of anything she was doing professionally or socially and in those days.
Interviewer: Do you have any memories of any outings you took together going to the Empire State Building or ice skating in Central Park or.
Fred Ball: Well, yes. Yeah, to some extent. We used to go to Central Park. We weren’t that far away. And we did go to Central Park and act. As a matter of fact, that’s how I became acquainted with Central Park. And also, we used to go over to. She had some friends that lived. I think it seems to me like I was on a stand, a forty second street called Tudor City. Was it? And what she used to have some friends and we used to go over there and visit them. So we did have some social relationships because of our being there together. And there was never a time to my remembrance. There was never any male companionship that I knew about. She had a couple of of girlfriends. But as far as any boyfriends, and she’s if she had, um, I don’t I didn’t know anything about them. But close, we were close, we were with respect to the apartment and the food and getting along and getting, you know, doing things. Until I got to the point where I couldn’t handle it any longer. But mainly because of the schooling, no other is just the schooling. We used to throw rats at. We used to throw wrenches at the rats in my auto mechanics class in that school. And, you know, that was discouraging to me.
Interviewer: All right. So at some point you go to Washington. She goes to Hollywood and then shortly thereafter you get called to come to California and join her. What is your sense of why it was important to her to gather her family around her when she moved to California? California?
Fred Ball: Well, I I do remember specifically that she was very disappointed with the respected I that I wanted to leave and go to Washington because I couldn’t handle my activities there. But Karshi submitted to it and she had you know, she couldn’t stop me from doing it and I just couldn’t handle it any more. So I went to Washington and I I graduated from from high school there. And but before I graduated, Dedi moved back to New York, not back, but she moved to New York and she went. I think the company with Stern Brothers on Forty Second Street, if I’m not mistaken, and so on. I got out of school in Washington, D.C. when I graduated. I went then I went to New York. But in the meantime, Lucy had transitioned to Hollywood via the farm. Not mistaken, it was called the Golden Girls. And she was selected along with, I think, maybe 10, 12, 13 other other girls. Most of all of that I knew of, and I I got a job at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel and. And I stayed there for I work there from. I can’t remember the exact dates, but seems like it was a. But any any hives at the Waldorf Astoria for about three years, I guess. And in the meantime, Lucy of Collins said, hey, you know, it’s time to get over here. I’ve got a job. And let’s get the family back together, because grandpa was in one place. Deedee was in another. Cleo was in another. And let’s put the thing together. How much money have you got? That’s about what to monitor. And I did have an I had accumulated enough money, so I said, fine, you know. So I bought a round trip ticket on the bus with what I thought at the time was very important. And so I went to Hollywood and that’s another story altogether.
Interviewer: You never went back?
Fred Ball: No, I never went back.
Interviewer: Well, tell me, you mentioned that he picked you up at the station. Tell me about that first day when you.
Fred Ball: Yeah, I guess this emphasizes illustrates see the that the approach that Lucy had, Lucille had to life. And it boiled down to this example. She was driving a. I think it was a 31 Buick convertible and she picked me up at the bus station in downtown Los Angeles and she drove me to Hollywood. And it was probably the wildest rough crap I have ever had in my life. And but she got us there. But I’ll never forget it because it’s it’s stuck in my mind because of the way in which she approached, I guess, practically everything with gusto. And so.
Interviewer: Was she trying to scare you?
Fred Ball: No, no. She was just being normal. Just me just being Lucille. Just just the way she always was. And we we did settle into the apartment she had on from also there in there for most in Santa Monica. And. And right away we decided that, you know, if I’ve got enough money, we go rent a house and bring the family together again, which I did have enough money. And we did do that. Exactly. And it didn’t take long to do that either, because, you know, just a few months. And we rented that house on Ogden Drive.
Interviewer: So tell me about your first impressions of Hollywood when you arrive. It’s this. You know, I can imagine that a kid from upstate New York. Here you are plopped over Hollywood. You had been to New York, so you’d obviously been exposed to city life before. But. There must have been a glamorous aspect. You must have had beautiful friends who wore beautiful clothes and were part of this dream factory. You remember being impressed. Having memories about that time that really Hollywood.
Fred Ball: Well. With respect to am I getting to going to Hollywood? I didn’t have much of an attitude about Hollywood or knowledge of Hollywood because, you know, I had never been there. I didn’t know what it was about. Well, I guess illustrated by the fact that I bought a round trip Bostik. So, you know, I wasn’t that enthused. But when I got there and because I had some connections from my Waldorf Astoria job out there, I got connected with a nightclub. It made me as much money as I was making in New York. And, you know, when you talk about in the thirties, you make two hundred dollars a week. I mean, that’s that’s a pretty good salary for a kid, which I was doing. And so I learned about Hollywood because of the fortunate job that I wound up in. And I think that was extremely relative to our our success. And in Hollywood, because I got acquainted with a lot of people, that made a lot of sense. And I learned a lot about Hollywood. And then she helped because she was connected with the studio. She was doing this this seven week. Seventy five dollar a week job. And so then she introduced me and I got some extra work, you know, through her. So we sort of graduated into that Hollywood atmosphere together.
Interviewer: Can you tell me what it must have been, what it was like? So I feel that you have such a privileged position that you were there, I guess, at Columbia. You said and you were on these lots in the 30s, seeing how movies were made and seeing directors walk by and stars. I just find that so totally fascinating. Can you paint a picture for me? Yeah. What that was like.
Fred Ball: I, I can paint a real Precht real picture of how astonished I was because one of the first. Not it was an extra job that one of the first extra jobs I got through Colombia, through Lucille and through Colombia. I think I got paid seven dollars and a half a day. They sent me out to the Ranch Colombia ranch out in the valley, and they put me under a robe. On a hot day with Henry Wilcockson, I think was the star. I think he was in the picture and I was one of the. Crowd, yes. And I find myself out there sweating underneath and I’m just a kid, you know, fresh and hot. And here I am underneath all these robes, what I got. And that was it that introduced me to the picture business and I wasn’t too impressed with.
Interviewer: Well, I think what’s interesting and what I think you’re saying is it was a lot of hard work. The pictures that go out to America on the screen looks all beautiful. Nobody’s sweating. Everyone is glamorous. But if you were there on the set, lots of people were sweating. Can you tell me just how much hard work that you and Lucy must have been part of the hard work to.
Fred Ball: Well, no. No. No. No, not really, I can’t. In that connection, I. I did this extra thing several times. Well, many times. And I even got to the point where I was. I had a couple of lines on a thing with. I think that was it. RKO, if I’m not mistaken. But anyhow, I didn’t participate in that too long because I was pretty much involved with a job that I had and that kept me pretty busy. So I gave up that that thing. So I couldn’t I couldn’t be too too explicit about any of that extra motion picture active enough. And I. And I was not aware of her attitude or or problems with that make because she was improving all the time, achieved jumping around from, you know, from one studio to the next.
Interviewer: She said in her book and elsewhere that when she finally landed at RKO, it was Ginger Rogers mother who really made a difference. She took her under her wing. How to walk, talk.
Fred Ball: Lila Rogers. Lila Rogers at RKO was absolutely a big influence on Lucille’s life. And Lila was like, you know, I’m not a mother to her. And I know that because I love the relationship that I knew she had with later. And Ginger and of course, those are the days when Ginger was, you know, getting a foothold, too. And there were several other people that RKO that Lucille was involved with. It did helped her in her career. And I can’t remember their names offhand, but several people that that took a liking to Lucille and promoted her and helped her. Watch. I’m sure you’ve heard about or read about.
Interviewer: But tell me more about Lila. What did you what was your sense of how Lila helped there and what their relationship was like?
Fred Ball: I don’t know too much about the details of that, except that I know what it was. She was like another mother to Lucille. She was huge. She was a you know, she keeps sheep. Lucille became part of the family.
Interviewer: And she and Ginger were friends also.
Fred Ball: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. They were friends. Well, no, I don’t know too much about their relationship. Big. I knew that she was working with Lila and Ginger, but I don’t I don’t know too much about the detail because here again, I had my career going, which was, you know, aside from the studios and and. I had to work hard to keep going and pay for all the accidents that she caused with the driving the car that we owned together. So that kept me pretty busy.
Interviewer: Are you trying to tell us he wasn’t a very good driver?
Fred Ball: I won’t say she was not a good driver. But I’ll tell you one thing. She was a wild driver. We bought a car together with a Studebaker fan, and that’s a two seater convertible. And after we rented this house on Agnon Drive, we bought this Studebaker together. And we had we, of course, had it insured. And she kept wrecking it every time she took it out. And it was always in the garage and I always had to. All my activity was involved around getting that Studebaker fixed and paying the insurance on it because she was still only making seventy five dollars a week at that point. So I finally got to the point where I said, hey, you know, I can’t I can’t handle this anymore. So I said, you got it. That brings up another thing about her driving. Interesting. Funny, but interesting. We had a garage. A single car garage in the back of that house on Agnon bribe. And Lucy would drive that Studebaker in the front end and go out the back. She would knock the back end of that garage out. Time after time after time. You know, not demolish it, but just kick it out because a studio. It was pretty long and it was a little bit bigger than that garage should handle. But anyhow, she’d kick the back out and grandpa would have to go out and repair it and put it back together. That was one of the funny things in our life that I’ll never forget.
Interviewer: Now your family is reunited at this Ogden Drive house. Do you have scenes like the one that you shared with us in Celeron where you were all playing music together, are there scenes of the family spending time together in their home that you can remember?
Fred Ball: No, not really, because Lucy didn’t live with us and argue and drive too long, because all of a sudden we’ve got Dedi. Now we’ve got Grandpa and we got Cleo. And we all of a sudden we ran out of rooms. And so Lucy got an apartment. I think she lived there on Crescent Drive right in the same vicinity. But she got an apartment and lived separately. So we didn’t have. Now, I remember many occasions when she would have dates, when boyfriends that would come to Agnon drive to pick her up, and some of those dates were some turned out to be some of the most important fabulous men in the motion picture industry. You know, I won’t name them, but there was quite a few.
Interviewer: She is a really beautiful woman.
Fred Ball: Yes, she was.
Interviewer: Can you tell me about her elegance and her style as you saw her?
Fred Ball: Well, I’ll tell you one thing that that I was very familiar with, with respect to her relationships with men, and I was not familiar with all of the relationships because all I saw was a guy coming to jog and drive to pick her up on her date, which is common, ordinary. But she did go with a man. That was George Raft’s Lieutenant First-Hand friend, live in whatever Matt Gray. Now, Matt Gray. I guess there was a some people called him his bodyguard, Jorge Rast bodyguard, which he wasn’t. He was just a friend. But Lucy and Mike Gray went around for quite some time. I couldn’t tell you exactly how long, but they had a good relationship. And Matt Gray used to come to the house and we knew him and we used to go up to George Raft’s house with Matt Gray when, you know, for various occasion, not we just I was invited along with Lucy and up in Benedict Canyon. I think they’re in Hollywood and. So there was that relationship that I knew about. And she went with MacRay for for some time. Probably one of the closest relationships. The only close relationship in Hollywood that I knew about. Because I don’t think she had any other long term relationships.
Interviewer: All right. Well. I guess that sort of makes me want to ask you about Desi, because my sense is that he was different than her other boyfriends that she dated in the earlier part of her life. So go ahead and take a sip of water. So maybe you could just describe to us your first impression of Desi when you met him.
Fred Ball: It’s a matter of fact, wood with relation to the relationship between Lucille and Desi. I would guess that my first impression was very good, a very. Very pleasant with risk.
Interviewer: All right, stop, you’re just my first impression of Desi so that we know who you’re talking about. You can just.
Fred Ball: Yeah, my first impression of Desie was a good impression because I, I felt that that he was a man of. Substance. Character. He knew where he was going. And you know where he came from. And. He was he was always upfront and everything he did also see sort of the same as Lucille was. And I had a good personal relationship with Desie from day one. There was never an any any attitude between Desi and myself or would Dedi never an adverse or never an attitude that was objectionable? He was he became part of our family. Real quick. And, of course, then his mother, Lolita, became part of our family real quick because he was very close and very, very close to his mother. Now, I don’t know if you know about his father, but there were a political family from Cuba and his his father was divorced, I think, from his mother. But Desi was very concerned about taking care of his mother from the very beginning. And she was part of our family family life. And I think the. When I first became really close to Daisy was when they bought the ranch in Chatsworth and put that together and that that was the beginning of the total total picture.
Interviewer: Tell me more about that time. Tell me more about Chatsworth and what it was like to go out there and be with them in that place.
Fred Ball: Well. I would have to bring up. The the family life situation out there. And I would have to mention the couple that Lucy and Lucille and Desi had working for them, Willie Mae and George Barker. Colored couple. And she was. She she was the she was the mainstay with respect to Lucille’s children. She was the nanny. She was the gal I really handled. Lucy. Lucy and Desi. In the beginning years and. Lucille and Desi built they bought the house in Chatham, but they built on and they built on and they built down. And that was the. That was one of the most formulative years for the for the children because it was strictly family in the pool, the guesthouse and all of the guests and people that they had out there, you know, time after time after time.
Interviewer: But let me before even before the kids were born, we talked to Van Johnson, who was one of the guests who was invited to come out to a party in probably 1948, the day before the kids were born. Everybody just talks about what a fun it was, people going swimming and parties and dressed up and kidding around. And I know you haven’t got any party. See that? Yes. Side of life.
Fred Ball: Oh, yes.
Interviewer: Tell me about that.
Fred Ball: Well, they they were at the point Lucy was at the point where she knew these people and she was a fluid enough at this particular time. I’m not sure that Desi was fluent enough, but they had between them, they had enough going and they did have some wonderful parties and they were very comfortable and all kinds of people and not just big well-known people, but a lot of unknowns and. And they were. And they, as matter of fact. They had a they had a pool. It was a beautiful pool and a landscape, a garden. And it was a actually it was a five acre orange grove. And so was a beautiful place, and they had many people out there on many occasions and they were they were very much involved with. I don’t know exactly what how to explain it, but it was an ongoing thing to have to be out there with Lucy, Lucille and Desi. And it was. And not just people that they knew in a business, but also the family, because we were all, you know, matter of fact, we I guess we were there practically on every occasion. Yeah, 40, 41, 42, 43, if I’m not mistaken, you have.
Interviewer: They bought the ranch in 41.
Fred Ball: Yeah. And then one word. We’re talking about you meet me. Further relationships with Desie.
Interviewer: Well, you had mentioned to me that at one time you were called in to become his band manager for a few years.
Fred Ball: Now we’re talking about forty six. OK. What do you want me to start? You asked me a question.
Interviewer: You tell me about the time that you were called in to save the day and become Desi’s band manager.
Fred Ball: Yeah, there was a time when. Just before the war. One, they say it will seal had the ranch, I think he was. I think he was in the army at that time. He had registered and he was in uniform. Right after that. He went on the road. Which I would guess would have been in forty four or forty five, forty five. Probably. But in any event. I had I went in the army at 45 and I got out and 46. And I got a call from from Lucy. That Desi was on the road and they needed help because his band manager was giving him much of a problem. And I had just gotten out of the army and I wasn’t too interested in taking off again. I wanted to get my life straightened out and, you know, get get get organized and find out where the heck I was going. But in any event, after talking to Lucille, I got a call from Andy Hitchcocks, a CPA, the man who was handling the finances. And he said, We’ve got your tickets. I said, yeah, where am I going? He says, You’re going to Chicago. And Desi, he needs help. And Lucille, I told me already that she, that she had a problem on. But Hitchcock said, we’ve got your tickets and you’re going to Chicago. And I said, well, OK, what else can I say at that particular point? So I went to Chicago. I had no knowledge of bad management or even what what the heck he was doing. But I got to Chicago and. We we arrive at the studio. I don’t know all of the details, but anyhow, when I got on stage, the all of the band, all of the stage of help were sitting on their fannies and a foot with her arms folded and said, you know, forget it and I’m going to get anything out of us. Because turns out that the band manager last time around to that theater had pocketed all of the money instead of giving it to the tips, as they usually do, which is standard procedure to give it to the stage crew and so forth. So they were all sitting on their families. And I walk in and presented with one of the biggest problems and I’m, you know, green at the whole thing. So that’s the way I got initiated. And I think it was important that Desi came in and and we talked about it and we straightened it out and everybody got in position and away we went. And everything happened from then on for about three years. Lesson after lesson and point after point and one nighters after one nighters. And it was quite an experience.
Interviewer: And what kind of guy was Desi on the road? Was he a happy go lucky want to have a good time, boy.
Fred Ball: Well, I’d have to break that down into about three parts if he was a happy go lucky. He was a good time boy and he was an entertainer and he drank. Now, which part do you want me to take on first?
Interviewer: Well.
Fred Ball: I can tell you cover a couple of experiences that exemplifies the problem. Desi would we’d finish, eh? We’ll talk about what, one nighters? He would finish a a show we get through at, you know, twelve o’clock, whatever. And he’d he’d you go out, we’d go out. Not he were weak. I had to nursemaid him all of the time, day and night. So we’d go out and he’d have a few drinks and we’d go to the hotel and he’d go to sleep and with the instructions, don’t wake me up until it’s time. Well, I had to wake him up, like on a minute and get him dressed and onstage at a specific time. And he wasn’t about to sit around, you know, dressed and waiting to go on stage. And it was up to me to nursemaid him from the night before to the onstage engagement with what, you know, which turned out to be a standard practice. And it was much of what your. On other occasions, we would we would have sometimes a pretty good stretch between one engagement and the other, sometimes we’d be someplace for three days or four days or whatever. But it was it was a learning experience because I had the responsibility. First of all, most all of the receipts, almost all of the income was cash because we had one nighters and we didn’t take any checks, of course. So they would, you know, out of the we’d get it in cash. So I had it. I had a a. When he called a portfolio briefcase full of cash. Not because I had to pay the band, you know. I had to use that cash to pay the ban on a weekly basis. And so that was much of a chore for me to take care of all of that, including taking care of Desi day and night. But everything was fine for quite some time until we got down a couple of years into this deal. We’re traveling all over the United States. And course, I’m getting kind of weary at this particular point. And I guess to exemplify the relationship between Darcy and me would be the situation when we arrived in Indianapolis at six o’clock in the morning after having driven in on the bus all night from the engagement prior and. Most all of the band members drank, I presume, mostly beer, I don’t know, but they drank and Desie drank. And we get in to Indianapolis in the hotel at six o’clock in the morning. And, of course, the people in the hotel had not checked out yet. It’s too early to, you know, have them checked out and have the room. So desis starts to scream and yell because here we are, six o’clock in the morning and we’ve got to go to bed. And he started screaming at me. And the hotel clerks and so forth. So I couldn’t I couldn’t handle that. That’s the first time he had done that. So I quit right there. I said, that’s it. Yes. And I left and I went up and got a hotel room someplace else. And we finally patched that up. That day we patch it up. But with the understanding that he, you know, he could yell at anybody else you wanted to yell at, Buddy, not me, because I won’t I will not handle it. And which he never did. From then on, he never yelled at me again. So he the relationship to exemplify the relationship, it was one of understanding. And I think that exemplified it. So from then on, we we we did pretty well.
Interviewer: I’m going to interrupt you for one second because I’m curious. It’s a hard life to be on the road like that. I think you experienced that.
Fred Ball: Absolutely.
Interviewer: And it’s got to have been hard in their relationship, that separation. Absolutely. We have a baby together, which I gather.
Fred Ball: Absolutely.
Interviewer: Tell me a little bit about how hard that time was on their relationship.
Fred Ball: Well. I can’t tell you personally with respect to the relationship that they had when we were Kuan, Desie was absentee and Lucy was working wherever all over the country. I can’t tell you how tough it was by no, it was tough because they weren’t together. And but there was one thing that came up that I would like to bring up that exemplify the relationship that I had with Lucille and and Desi. She would call me and ask me about how Desi is behaving. And I made it real clear right up front. I said, Lucille. I’ve got a business relationship with Desi. And that’s what I’m going to take care of. And don’t get me involved. I will not have any part of your personal relationship, you. Whatever problems you had. You talked to him, not to me. And I told Desi that, too. I said, you just exclude me from any kind of an intermediary with respect to you and Lucille. I’ll take care of your business as best I can. And that’s the way it was. She respected that and he respected it. Which brings up another point with respect to. Their relationship when we were on the road, she was in. She was in Detroit. Doing something Dreamgirl or whatever. And we were in Madison, Wisconsin. And we I think we I think we were in there for a three day stand and I had the bus all lined up to take us from Madison to cherry hot Indiana. Immediately from. The you know, the end of the show night in the theater. Everybody get on the bus, go to Terre Haute, Indiana. And Desi said. Let’s get higher on airplane and let’s get to Detroit, because we got a two day in between here and there. So I hired an airplane and we got on the airplane. Stormy night. Oh, rain. Thank God we had a good, good pilot, but we got on the airplane. We took off. We went to Detroit. But the bus took off with the boys and rear ended a Sambi and injured. The two of the band members injured six of the band members, but two of them seriously and. So we had quite a problem there. And but that’s typical of the type of problems. That’s only one of several problems we got got into. Desi couldn’t stand not seeing her, you know. So that was a reason for that. That that activity. But it did. It resulted in disaster, a disaster, really.
Interviewer: But when they came together on these few moments that they could grasp to be with one another. Was it your sense that they were very much in love?
Fred Ball: Oh, absolutely. They were. They were absolutely always very much in awe. He was very concerned, even even even in his drunkest moments. He was concerned about Lucille. And but, you know, I I excuse myself from all of that conversation.
Interviewer: But I guess some people have told us they were just like kids, they couldn’t keep their hands off each other. They were so affectionate. And then it was this passionate romance. Did you observe them?
Fred Ball: I was never that close to their passionate attitudes or feelings or circumstances. I’ll be honest with you.
Interviewer: But it’s your sense that they loved each other.
Fred Ball: There was no question about it. He was a he was a dynamic personality from from day one and she was a dynamic personality from day one. And the two of them were perfectly matched. And it’s it’s only a shame. That Desi was afflicted by certain things that. That caused him to deviate. He could have been one of the most successful men in the United States, in the entertainment industry. If he had. Kept his. Brain working is in the right department. I admired him for all of the things that he did, except for he was weak. And he did have some weaknesses that caused. Major is major demise.
Interviewer: And what do you think before we get to the demise part? What do you think he did for her? I mean, you’ve described them very aptly as these dynamic personalities, but one also gets the sense that she was better because of him when they finally did their TV show that he knew what was right.
Fred Ball: Well, now, when you get into the the front. What I tell you one thing it is important.
Interviewer: John, you happy?
Fred Ball: There’s one thing that I’ve always known, not just felt, but I’ve always known. Without Desi. Lucille would never have succeeded. Presumably, in my mind, would never have succeeded the way that she did without Desie. Without Lucille, Desi would never have succeeded. He recognized he was a kind of a man who could could could recognize a situation and take advantage of it up to a point because he had other deformities or failures or whatever, but he recognized the potential. And he knew how to exploit it. And he was no he was no amateur when it came to comedy. Because he may have been a straight man, but he was. He knew he knew what accommodating, you know, what to do with it. And he had a couple of writers, Bob and Marone, Bob in Maryland. Madeleine. Madeleine. Yeah. Bob and Madeleine. He had a couple of writers who understood. And Desi was. I have to admire him for having a knowledge of being able to put this thing together technically, financially, emotionally and make it work. And he’s a guy that made it work. She was the potential she was. She was the thing that he could exploit and he did successfully to her satisfaction and to his. Now, he had his problems and that’s what caused the separation and a breakdown in the things that we all regret.
Interviewer: And what was he like on the set with with people? You hear stories about his immense charm, that he was able to get people to do stuff they didn’t want to do because he was so personable.
Fred Ball: With respect to does his personality and a relationship with his crew. There was no question he could yell at his crew, everybody except me. He could yell at this crew and do say anything you needed. He was never what vulgar. But he could yell at a screw and he could be demanding and he could be forceful. But they respected him. And they liked him for course, he paid them well to. And that was a very important thing because everybody that worked for it as a loose seal were paid well. And I have some very positive impressions of the people that work for Esalen in Desie at Desie Lou, who I respect greatly and that that’s the kind of people that they attracted. And that’s the kind of people that they kept. Under their employ. And that was that was a very big part of the reason for their success. That the loyalty. That these people head to Lucille and Desi, very important.
Interviewer: Well, I have a picture I want to show you, this desolate picnic. I’m sure there were many and I’m not sure which one this was. But there something so charming to me about these pictures. She’s there drawing the raffle ticket. And you look at the people’s faces, they’re smiling and they look like they’re really genuinely having a good time. And the little kids were included. I mean, I find this. Maybe you could just tell me, did you ever go to a dusty room picnic? And what was it like?
Fred Ball: Everyone.
Interviewer: Tell me that.
Fred Ball: Didn’t we go? Oh, yes. We went there. We won. Fun, fun, fun. All kinds of games. Well. I guess a I guess a reason for the Desie Lou picnic’s was the attitude that Lucille and Desi had toward the people that worked. For them and their families. I don’t think there’s any question about that. And this was not any kind of a promotion on desis part or a sales part to do any to accomplish anything specific financially or. That’s the way Lucille. Felt as the way she talked. That’s the way she. This way Desie felt and talk. Family. You know, we’re all family. Does his attitude was, you know, I can yell at you, but you’re still my family. And Lucille’s attitude was very, you know, very obnoxious sometimes because she was very demanding. She was very, very demanding of her. But she they knew that she loved them, but she demanded a lot from them. And they respected that. And she was never she never degraded anybody. Never to my knowledge, did she ever degrade anybody.
Interviewer: It sounds like what you were saying to me about the picnic’s, that it was a way of them giving back something to their employees into the family.
Fred Ball: The picnics were was absolutely a way of appreciating. The people that work for her and the families of those people. That was their way. And she looked forward to that. And, you know, soda does. We all look forward to that that picnic, because that was a way of solidifying the relationship between all of us.
Interviewer: And what happened at those picnics. Put me back there.
Fred Ball: Well, I will say that Didi was a big part of those picnics to. And Lolita. And her kids. And you know what, you can you can see by looking at the pictures that have been taken of those picnics, that everybody was involved. Everybody was included. And it wasn’t a free for all. It was. Come in and join, join a family. That’s what it really boils down to. And. It was a something way off. We all looked forward to. Now, that wasn’t just the just the the the bottom layer employees, these were the top executives, you know, their families that were in all of this, too. That brings up another whole subject when it comes to the studio and Lucy and the executive and the board of directors and all, that’s a different subject, but it leads up to it.
Interviewer: Well, maybe we should talk a little bit about DesiLu, the company, and how quickly they grew. And I know you told me that you went to work for them in 1954. And I guess that was a partly as a result of this growth that they needed help to run his place. And I think people today don’t realize how much more was going on besides just the I Love Lucy show. So maybe you could just take me back to that time in their lives when they weren’t expanding so rapidly. And what it felt like to be part of that company.
Fred Ball: Well, with respect to. With respect to their Lucille and Desi’s combining their talents to produce something. For them, I was not involved at the very beginning because I had my own career. In another part of the country. And so they were they were in business one way or the other at a place called Motion Picture Center, which was a still a small studio on up there in Hollywood. They got into so much activity at Motion Picture Center of producing not only their show, but other shows too, like Armus Brooks and I don’t know if Star Trek was there that at that time. But anyhow, Danny Thomas and, you know, on and on and on and things got to be growing at Motion Picture Center. To where they needed help because it was all new to them. And. I had my thing going in Phoenix and a here again. Lucy gives me a call and says Desi needs help. I said, you know, I’ve got my own career going and it’s not really time for the. But anyhow, I did to make a long story short and now this is an interesting part about my entrance into the studio, which I was absolutely alien to in every respect. So I arrived at the studio in 1954 and I went up to see Desi and. And he always called me Omegle, you know, not Fred, but amigo, anyhow, amigo. Go meet everybody. And when you find out where you belong. Go to work. That was about the extent of it. So I was introduced to everybody in the studio. You know, all executives and so forth. And I wound up with a man by the name of Ed Holly. I don’t know how interested you might be in studio executives and their positions and that sort of thing. But it was very important to me. And I wound up with a man called Ed Holly, who one of the most respectful men, an admirable man in my life that I’ve known in my career. And he said, well, we’ve got a problem. We need a transportation department. Fine. I said, well, I’ll do what I can’t fly. I organized the Transportation Department at 9:00. I had never had another conversation with Desie in all this time. But I had a conversation with Ed Holly and put a Transportation Department together. Then Holly said, well, you should check into the commercial department. And so I checked into that and I decided there was nothing going there. And so they took action on that. Then he said, well, we need a little more information about the editorial department. So I checked into that and I reported back. So then he said, we need a budget department. So I organized the budget, you know, on an eight or nine day situation by situation. But I still never had another conversation with Desie or Lucy. I was I was I guess you call her a management consultant going from department, do whatever has to be done. And now that was what I’m emphasizing is the confidence that they put in their people. And I was a sort of a Go-Between and I was you know, I was to go out and research in and bring back information and research and bring back information. And when I got Nelson, who was the production manager, said, we need a budget department. I organized the budget department. And so that’s the way I became initiated. As strangely as I was initiated into the band match. But that’s the way it happened. I mean, just step with respect to my attitude when I joined. Day one, I had joy when I joined Desie Lou and when they were at Motion Picture Center in 54. I was never surprised at what they were doing because. They were doing so much in every department and they needed so much help in every department. I was never surprised because I was too busy to to be really to be surprised when it came to. The point where they were doing so well and Desi jumped out and bought RKO. I wasn’t surprised because he was he was so far ahead of everybody with respect to the filming in the changing going into the three camera operation. And they what they they they had a a monster. What they edited. They filmed it. They edited with a monster where they’ve ran the three three different camera films at the same time. And they edited from that. And that was in innovation, as far as I know, which Desi instigated. And I was so I was never surprised at what Desi was doing because he amazed me, you know, time and time again.But I knew that there was a a job ahead of us because all of a sudden I’ve got to go over to a not one studio, but two studios, find out what it was worth, what was how big it was. And I went over there with Ed, Holly and Argyle Nelson and Martin Legian and the other people. And we looked the studio over to find out what he bought. What we we didn’t know. He might have known, but we didn’t know. And at top of that, the Culver City studio, we looked at all of that and it was a it was a challenging job. Surprised I wasn’t, because I’ve you know, he does he did so many things that were surprising, it got to be, you know, run of the mill. So which we all respected him for, you know, we all jumped in and tried to solve all our problems and take care of all. But anyhow, that opened up a whole new world with respect to all of us in the little motion picture center. Now we’ve got two studios and we better get busy. So that’s where we all settle down and.
Interviewer: All right. During this, again, period of the 50s, there was a very big event that happened in Lucille’s life that I think touched on your life as well. And that was the night that Walter Winchell accused her of being a communist on his radio program and that instigated instigated a whole slew of newspaper headlines. And a big concern, I think, on their part that here they are, this incredibly successful couple. And is this accusation going to bring her down? So I guess I’d like you to put yourself back in that time. And tell me how it felt to be caught up in this. OK. We’re changing batteries, so I’ll just talk through the question.
Fred Ball: When back in the thirties, Grandpa asked us to register communist.
Interviewer: Yeah, let’s start.
Fred Ball: You want to start the beginning.
Interviewer: And then we’ll fast forward the time when everything is all right is very simple. OK.
Fred Ball: It’s very simple. No. Innuendos are now under the cover. No, nothing but Don’t confuse me. Just give me the facts, man.
Interviewer: So tell me how this story began.
Fred Ball: You’re ready? Yes. OK. It started when we were on an organ drive in Hollywood and we had brought the family together. We had grandpa there and Didi to see. And I don’t know whether Cleo was there or not, but it seems to me like it was maybe 35. And grandpa was always very involved with the workers. He was always socially involved in the the working people and so forth, and he subscribed to what was so called the Daily Worker. I don’t know if maybe even in existence today it was a communist newspaper and there was nothing criminal about that. He just that was just a way of life with him and. No. And he didn’t really know anything about Russia or communism in Russia. All he knew was he looked at the daily work. Ernie had a problem and he talked to us, Lucille, Deedee and me, and he wanted us to register communist. Because it was time to go down and register for the vote. So we said, you know, we talked together and we said, well, you know, what’s the harm? Who who cares? Lucille had no interest in didn’t even know what the hell a grandpa was talking about. I knew what he was talking about, but it doesn’t make any difference in my life. And, E.D., you know, so. So what? You know, so that’s the way he feels and where we want to accommodate grandpa. So we did we went down a registered communist period. As far as anything beyond that, we didn’t vote. I don’t know how Lucille voted or how did you vote, but I know I didn’t vote communist. Matter of fact, I don’t even know if I voted, but there was nothing to it. There was no substance of any kind that had anything connection with our knowledge of the Communist Party. Simple. Just very simple. So we forgot the whole thing. Nothing happened. So then along comes what was McCarthy was up to? McCarthy, I think, and the investigations and all those problems. And they picked up this communist registration, whatever, voter registration. Well, nothing complicated about that. So when Desi understood all of the factors and the thing came up and they were filming the Lucy show and does he just put it right on the line? Here it is. She’s as red as her hair. And we don’t even know if that’s true. So that’s what it boils down to. It’s as simple as that.
Interviewer: And how did you feel the night or whenever you became aware that Walter Winchell had leaked this story to the press and was trying to whip it?
Fred Ball: Oh, well, I didn’t have any any particular reaction to the Walter Winchell thing, because it was a lot of things going on with the McCarthy McCarthy investigations and so forth. And to me, it wasn’t important because I knew that that Lucille was not involved, nor I was or I had repercussions from that, too. But that didn’t. As a matter of fact, when I went to work in aircraft, I was fired because of that communists registered voter registration thing. I was fired out in Lockheed Vega at one time. But that doesn’t change any facts. The facts are that we were not communists or we didn’t have any participation how Lucy Lucille did leave and what the Communist Party was. She didn’t even know what the Daily Worker was of a newspaper. He was reading or neither did I. Because I never read it, you know. But Grandpa was grandpa.
Interviewer: Well, you obviously must have had a deep affection for him. That you wanted to accommodate. So maybe we could take an opportunity just to talk about the importance of that man in your life and in Lucille’s life.
Fred Ball: Well, you get in I get emotional when I think about that, because with respect to my grandfather, Didi’s father, he was. He was. He was her father, but he was also my father because my father died before I was born. And he was Lucille’s father, too, you know. And it was Cleo’s father. Really. So this is a very close, very close emotional relationship that we had. And. Going down and registering communists wasn’t. Wasn’t any kind of a big deal. You know, that’s like go to the gift, a gas station or this, go to the gas station. Who the hell cares? But that’s what it boils down to. But it turned out to be, of course, politically very different. But I think Desie did the right thing. He I think he dispelled the implications or the importance or the magnitude of that whole situation. And I don’t know how anybody could explain anything different than that.
Interviewer: Well, we’ve read Desi wrote this book in the 70s and what he says in his book is. And there’s nothing red about Lucy except her hair. And even that’s not legitimate. Is that how you remember the line? There’s nothing right about Lucy except her hair. And even that’s not legitimate. Course you weren’t there. But is that how did you hear the story when it was told back to you?
Fred Ball: Well, I. With respect to Dusty’s reaction. I think that reaction was on one of the fillings of one of the shows when he addressed the audience with respect to that accusation. I don’t have any. Any particular reaction to that? That’s why he felt that’s the way the situation was. And it’s just as true as could be because in fact. Her hair was not really red. Neither was she because she actually had. If anybody would have asked her a question about communism, she would tell him to get lost because she wouldn’t know the answer.
Interviewer: But is it your sense that they were concerned about it? And that’s part of the reason why Desi went out there that night in front of that audience?
Fred Ball: Well, I sure sure does. Desi went out to the audience and addressed the audience because of the newspaper headlines and the accusations that the McCarthy investigation were exploring. And he knew he knew as well as we all knew how insignificant or how improper all of those accusations were. And he did it in his fashion. Now, that’s his way of explaining it, that nobody else could have explained it the way he did.
Interviewer: And was she grateful to him for his support during that time? Do you think? You never hear that. Was she grateful to him for all the things that he did for her?
Fred Ball: Lucille was not only madly in love with that man from the very beginning. She was. Appreciative and aware of his knowledge and his not experience, but his knowledge in his approach and his forcefulness and his character. All of her. All of her career with him, she was she admired him from day one. Until the day that he died, in spite of her other marriage or anything else, she admired him or respected him. And demised him for certain things that he did that were wrong. But I think I used the wrong word, but. Yeah. But anyhow, she loved him from from day one to the end. No question about it in my mind. I know that to be a fact because I’ve talked to her about that.
Interviewer: No, I think a lot of people have talked about Jesse’s weaknesses. And I think any woman probably would have had a hard time with what Lucy had put up with. But I still would contend that marriage is always a two way street. And there must have been things about Lucille that were difficult for Desi. In fact, the writer said to us. He really loved her because otherwise he wouldn’t put up with some of the stuff that she gave him. But they didn’t really elaborate on the stuff that she gave him. If you had to say what her contribution was to the fact that the marriage didn’t last. What would you say she brought to it that was difficult for him.
Fred Ball: I’d say that the critics were 100 percent off base. If anybody was to ask me about the people that were criticizing Lucy’s attitude toward Desi. With respect to saying that she criticized him. Well, let’s put it another way. She she did not criticize him for anything except his deficiencies when it came to drinking. And getting away from the management. He had an ego that put him above. Getting down to the desk and managing, he got to the point where he couldn’t afford to spend a time managing. And he got to the point were drinking and doing other things like raising horses and gambling was more important. And that’s what she criticized him for. But she never stopped loving him in spite of. I can I know that because I’ve talked to her about that.
Interviewer: All right, well, at the time at which she was brought in to become the president of DesiLou. And I have a picture to show you. Where she’s sitting at the table, it’s 63, this picture. She is here and you are here. And I believe this is the annual stockholders meeting in August. I find this a wonderful image because it’s a picture of Lucille that we’re not accustomed to seeing. She looks very business like she looks in charge. She’s not her clowning self. Tell us what kind of an executive you think she was or became when she was thrust into that role.
Fred Ball: Lucille was no executive. With respect to CEO of a going operation. Lucille was a reason for the operation, a reason for the company. With a knowledge of how to engage people to work with her in the same manner the Desi taught her. To engage people to work with. Desi and Lucy to accomplish. What desis objectives were, and he’s the one that set the objectives. And she is the one that. She was the product. And he was the he was the person that recognized the product and was a accomplished enough to not only be a part of the product, but to make that product a profitable, beneficial, long lasting, he’s the one that really made the thing work in the long term. Now, when it came to the point where does he exit? Lucille had certain people that had. Had demonstrated their capabilities and so forth, and she kept those people. Now, at that point, I enter the scene. And I I discussed with her what I knew about those people, and there was. Some changes were made because of the relationship between Lucille and all of the employees, because now she’s the she’s the sole executive as against Desi being top dog. So that was the reason for the the meetings and my relationship with Lucille and I could go into some detail about some of the some of the details as to what happened. With respect to her type of management, as is, and I think that was that was the main point that we wanted to bring up.
Interviewer: Yeah. Like I heard. I guess what I want to know is, did people willingly accept her in that role? Was there prejudice against her because she was a woman? Was a prejudice against her because she was a performer and a comic performer. What did people say? Shareholders, executives, whoever they say, OK, this is the new boss. And we have to listen.
Fred Ball: There was absolutely no animosity on the part of anybody up to a point now. There was a point when we did have a problem. But up to that particular point, there was no animosity. Everybody did their job and everybody felt that. As a matter of fact, they already had their job and they were just continuing with their job and they were doing it the way they were taught to do it. And they. But up to a point, then all of a sudden studio politics got into the act. Now that’s another subject altogether.
Interviewer: And we probably don’t have time to go into that sort of detail. But I guess I just I would like to get a statement from you about, you know, when Lucille took over the company from nursing. This is how people responded. In your words, they accepted her. It was just business as usual.
Fred Ball: I think I just said that with respect to work, when Lucille finally became the CEO, managing director of the company, there was no animosity whatsoever. And everybody just went right on with what they were doing up to a point. Then then there was some studio politics that entered into the thing that that did did needed some action. And Lucille took that action at that point when she found out that there was a problem. But she was she was knowledgeable enough and smart enough to get in there and say, hey, we got a problem. Now let’s straighten it out right now. And she did.
Interviewer: And it’s my sense also that it was during her tenure as the studio head that Star Trek and Mission Impossible were both shows that she greenlighted, which were very, very popular shows. Is that your sense also?
Fred Ball: Well, I don’t know what you mean by green lighted. Somebody has mentioned the fact that those shows were popular and we were we mean RKO production staff. We were producing. But I don’t quite understand the.
Interviewer: I just want to know whether it’s fair to give Lucille credit for having a vision to see these projects. Mission Impossible on Star Trek and say, yes, I think we should go ahead.
Fred Ball: No. No, not fair. Not fair.
Interviewer: She wasn’t managing on that.
Fred Ball: No. No. To answer your question, Lucille was was up on top of every person, but she was not on top of every project. Because she didn’t have to be. She had people that she depended upon for years. And she dependent upon those people to put it together, and they did. But she was not instrumental as Desi might have been with respect to this show or this project or that investment or this or that. No, she was not that.
Interviewer: And during this time, when she is the president, she is also starring in the Lucy show with Vivian Vance. And I believe that you have a feeling that maybe she should have quit. And stop with just I Love Lucy. I’d like to know how do you feel about those later shows?
Fred Ball: What’s the difference in how I feel about her activity to continue on and beyond? I Love Lucy. What’s the difference in my attitude? I do have an attitude, but that’s after the fact.
Interviewer: Tell me. I mean, you you know, I want to know what you think. Do you think she should have gone ahead and done this leadership?
Fred Ball: To answer your specific question, should she have continued to. Do doo do do more than she had already done with 100 in I think 167. I love Lucie’s. Should she have done more? To accomplish what? My answer is absolutely no. But that’s an arm chair after the fact. She and she should not have. Proof of the pudding is at that. You know, it didn’t succeed, didn’t hurt her and in the long run. Because she still is the probably the most widely viewed in the world. Matt, I’m not sure that that’s only something that I’ve read, but I do think that she should not have. And I have other reasons for for believing that.
Interviewer: And what is your sense? Why she wanted to continue.
Fred Ball: I would rather not answer that. W.
Interviewer: Well, I think that what you say, but I have to tell you that I think even whatever it is you’re thinking, that there was a part of her that loved working. That’s where she felt needed and valued and in control and powerful. And that’s very seductive. And it’s hard to go back to the rocking chair when you’ve been the number one.
Fred Ball: Well, I have to agree with you that with respect to why she wanted to continue doing things beyond I Love Lucy. That was because of her character. She was not any person that would ever give up. Never. And. But there were other motivating factors that I think influenced that attitude. Which. Probably motivated, which probably prompted the whole activity beyond I Love Lucy, the Lucy show, on this show, on that show, whatever. But I think the main thing is to answer your question is. She she was not the kind of a person to ever say this is the end. I’m satisfied and I’ve done it all and there’s nothing more to be accomplished.
Interviewer: Well, I want to take you now to. I think I asked you this on the phone, what are the three things that you would like people to know about her? And that day, anyway, you said she was entrepreneur from the very beginning and that she had guts and that she had incredible drive. And I think that that’s certainly borne out in her accomplishments. But tell me a little bit more about what qualities in her you credit her success. What about her made her successful? What about her, made her successful?
Fred Ball: Well, that’s very difficult. What? What was really the major factor in creating the drive that she had to be successful, what was the major factor? Well. I really can’t answer that other than I have before that. That was just inherent. That was just something that she was born with. Were they? Ay ay ay ay ay drive. A mental attitude to move forward, to succeed. And it’s exemplified at every stage of her life from the very beginning when she was a kid and with her girlfriends and her boyfriends and the Hollywood and the studios. In every case. And exemplified by her relationship with Desi. What she she understood once she took Desie on, she understood him and she understood what he was capable of, and she still had that drive. And it was her drive that made him do what he did. So I think to answer the question of what’s the major factor, the major factor is she had that in a drive. Where the port came from, I don’t know, but I think it’s part of the family.
Interviewer: Was she funny as a little girl?
Fred Ball: Yes.
Interviewer: Tell me that.
Fred Ball: Well, as a little girl, I wasn’t that close to her. I was, you know, as I do my little job and I’m a kid and she’s off, but. She was never solemn, seek, secretive, secure in her corner. You know, she was always, always upfront. And there was never any animosity in her approach to people. It was always. Grab a hold, let’s go. And that was from the very beginning, even when I was young, you know, with her and sure we had. Things between us as kids, you know, children will do about. She was always. Always an aggressive person, but never was animosity or negative negativism. No, never.
Interviewer: She used to make you laugh.
Fred Ball: Always.
Interviewer: Tell me that.
Fred Ball: Oh. Well, I don’t know exactly what I could explain about how she made me laugh, but. I guess some of her antics when we got into our musical interludes with Dedee and she with a saxophone and grap on so far. She was always the type of person that made light of everything, that it didn’t make it into what it was. You know, even once she took me from the bus station in Hollywood, you know, it was a comedy all the way. And I’m screaming, I wonder what the hell is going on with her. It was, you know. Every day. She was unquestionably. She had a sense of humor. There’s no doubt that comes from her father also. So because he was that way. And as a matter of fact, that went with not only your father, but her uncle, the Clinton Ball family. And that thing came right down through. And there were there were two cousins of mine which were in the ball family that were absolutely there was never a day they didn’t. Had to do something that was humorous, everything they said was humorous and it was amazing to me because they couldn’t even make a statement without making a funny out of it. So there’s some some way that that sense of humor has evolved through the family.
Interviewer: We’re going to stop.
Fred Ball: I have no idea why it was never brought up and when we were younger in those days, interracial was not a common cause of discussion. It was not a situation, it was not a problem. It developed later on, of course, but at that particular point, at that particular point, I I’ve never heard of any any any anybody ever making a suggestion that there was any kind of an error. Matter of fact, I can’t even look at it as an interracial. Cuban is a Cuban. Spanish is Spanish. But that didn’t make any difference in my mind or anybody else’s that I knew of.
Interviewer: When Lucy and Desi bought RKO, Lucy.
Fred Ball: Desi bought RKO.
Interviewer: OK. When Desi bought RKO, Lucy took over. Ginger Rogers dressing room. And she indicates in her book that that was sort of symbolic for her, that she was now taking over this, the queen of ARKOS dressing room. Do you have any sense about that? Do you remember that?
Fred Ball: None whatsoever. I have no knowledge of that. Now, I know that I looked one one when I went was Argyle Nelson and that Holly and the other executives of Desie Lou to find out what does he bought. We did review all of these things into Ozzie and Harriet Place out in Culver City and on and on and on and on and on. But otherwise.
Interviewer: A lot of the people who we’ve interviewed who worked, primarily the people who worked on the I Love Lucy show. Describe their great sadness when they found out that Desi and Lucy were gonna split up, that it was almost like a family and it was like their parents were getting a divorce. Can you tell us how you felt when it became clear that this marriage wasn’t going to last?
Fred Ball: I suppose that when the time came, when it was we were all aware that Lucy and Desi were going to separate. We were all concerned. Some people were more concerned Wooden would Lucy. And after the separation or during a separation. And some people were more concerned with Desi after the separation. And I happened to be one of the people that was more concerned with Desie after the separation. By concerned. I would say that that was because I recognized that the the track he was on, the path he was following, the things that he was doing, the. The deterioration in his abilities and character that were taking place. Which. I was very sorry for because I had a great amount of respect for him as far as his ability and so I had a great deal of. Disrespect for the things that he entered into in the way he destroyed his life. Which was his prerogative. But I had I was sorry that that happened because. It was also to Lucy’s detriment, which I was concerned with. Now she survived. But she didn’t survive as well after Desi as she was surviving before Desi And I felt that very seriously.
Interviewer: A lot of people have talked about how she liked to play games, and that too, is a wicked backgammon player. Did you ever play cards or backgammon with Lucy?
Fred Ball: I wouldn’t dare. I would never have dared to play cards or backgammon or anything else with Lucy. She she had too much time and too many people to practice with. When I was too busy to get into anything like that and I wouldn’t have dared to get into that because she was a tiger. She was this. Now, that’s another point. She was as much a tiger at playing at a simple game of cards. Poker or whatever. As she as she was with respect to the studio or Desi or anything else, because I remember so many times in the Beverly Hills or Beverly Hills house where they live. When she would have these tournaments, I call them tournament. There was nothing but battles between her and her cohorts. And it was ferocious because she would never, you know, if she was a tiger. And I think that’s exemplary of her, her her her personality. I think that really brought up emphasized the things that made her happen. What made her do the things she did in her life? Strangely enough, you know, from Tamberg beginning to the very, very end, she was a tiger in that respect.
Interviewer: All right. And I know you didn’t live in Hollywood at this time, but I’m going to try you on this one and maybe you have something and maybe you don’t. But we have several people talking about the hoopla that was surrounding the birth of her second child, Desi Junior, and that they incorporated the pregnancy into the show and that everybody in America was essentially standing around waiting for Lucy to have this baby. Can you remember that from magazines and newspaper or people that you knew? Talking about it? Do you remember the hoopla surrounding the birth of Desi Junior?
Fred Ball: No. Like, I can’t even remember the year that he was born.
Interviewer: I think it’s fifty two.
Fred Ball: Fifty two. Where was I in fifty two.
Interviewer: Fifty three.
Fred Ball: Fifty three. Where why was I’m fifty three. I was in Phoenix in 53, so I was isolated from like fifty to fifty three. I was isolated in my sales management career and a manufactured home building and I didn’t go over there til 54, so I was not aware of that. Am I behaving more properly this time?
Interviewer: Well, I guess. You know, we have these pictures. Well, first, let me ask you. Desi, I understand they remain friends for their whole lives where they remained in touch.
Fred Ball: They remained loving each other for.
Interviewer: So do you. Can you describe for us? When he did die in 86. Was Lucille devastated by this? How did his death.
Fred Ball: No she wasn’t devastated.
Interviewer: Tell me what happened at the end for Desi.
Fred Ball: Well. I wasn’t really that close, you know, to her from a personal standpoint. Gary was involved in the situation at that time and I was not that close to intimately, but I know from talking to her, as I did on occasion. But she knew the what the end result was going to be. She knew that and she did everything, including bringing him back. You know, he was out of money. He spent all in what he ever got out of everything. And he was destitute. But she brought him back. She took care of him. To answer your question, I guess. There was a love that never diminished. Never failed. And. She took care of him as best she could to his dying day. Does that answer the question?
Interviewer: Absolutely. And now her death. We have amazing photographs of. Theater marquees that say, we love you, Lucy. And the outpouring of affection. Seems extraordinary. Were you surprised by that?
Fred Ball: I was not surprised because I did not know about it. I would I. I did not know about the particulars surrounding her death. I was not advised. I was not appraised of what the situation was, how serious it was. Ah, how terminal her illness was.
Interviewer: But in the days following her death, there was a tremendous amount of television coverage and people speaking out and tributes and so on. Did any of that? I mean, were you amazed by the kinds of I think Ronald Reagan even went on television saying how upset he was that she had passed?
Fred Ball: The question being.
Interviewer: I don’t know. Did that surprise you? How did that feel? To see this legacy that people recognized.
Fred Ball: I still don’t know what the question is. I understand the situation and I have reactions to the situation, but I don’t understand the question.
Interviewer: Well, let me put it a different way. I think Lucille Ball is one of the few people in our country who is enough of an icon that people would want to make a refrigerator magnet with her face on it. And a lot of people want to buy that magnet and put it on their refrigerator. And that’s a pretty. She’s a pretty big deal. And. So I guess maybe the question is, why does it feel like to be the sister of this woman who means so much to so many people? To be the brother, I’m sorry. To be the brother of this icon.
Fred Ball: Well, I’m sorry to say that I am not impressed with her influence on the public. I’m ppreciative. But as far as being impressed. She’s my sister. And those, my wife. And Cleo, my cousin. And I. I can’t say that I’m overwhelmed because of anything with respect to Lucille’s accomplishments. I can only say that. I have admired her and I have appreciated her. I’ve appreciated her. For many, many things, she’s she’s always been home, even though she’s has had an attitude and ego and she’s been demanding she’s overbearing and so far. But that’s the character of people that are successful, whether it be the motion picture, industry or politics or whatever, they have to be overbearing and politically and forceful. And I appreciate that. But. She’s still just my sister.
Interviewer: And I guess I want to ask you is my last question. What I think I started out at the beginning saying that I hoped that we would come away from this interview, and that is the importance of family. So maybe if you could just make a statement about. The importance of family to Lucille.
Fred Ball: The importance of family.
Interviewer: I mean, her whole life.
Fred Ball: Rephrase the question.
Interviewer: Her whole life demonstrates that regardless of how famous she was, regardless of how rich she was, regardless of how successful she was, it was a priority for her to keep her family close.
Fred Ball: Unquestionably.
Interviewer: All right. Tell me about that, because I think that’s unusual. I don’t think every, quote unquote star behaves that way. A lot of people want to forget where they came from and cast off the people who knew them when they were young. And she didn’t do that.
Fred Ball: Well, the question is, you want me to illustrate exactly. Well, I can’t tell you exactly. But I think I’ve reiterated prior to now, I’ve reiterated several times were. There has never been. There has never been a a relaxing of the attitude, my attitude, Lucille’s attitude. And even when Desi came into the picture. Or my wives and I. Plural. When family has not been the most important factor. I don’t care what. Lucy, success was or Desi’s or Ceo’s or any of the family. I think the family has always been. And Lucy has emphasized that time and time again, time and time again. And in every in every way. And I could illustrate, you know, a lot of incidental, incidental things that illustrate. The feeling of. Family. Probably the most important was bringing everybody together in Hollywood, you know, in 1934, 35. And it never ceased. That attitude never ceased. Sure, she needed help and Desi needed help at the studio, and they called upon me because they figured I was honest. And the Indian Wells Hotel got in trouble. They called upon me because they thought I was honest and I could do smething for them incidental. It was still family. And I think that’s the important thing. And it never ceased and even was the problem between Lucy and Desi. Family was still was still the important factor. Now, I did I didn’t happen to be aware of. Her immediate problems at the end of her life. I was not privileged to be aware of. Here I am moving back and forth again. I was not privileged to know. The circumstances of her demise. And I’m sorry about that. But that’s the way it was. So to answer your question, I think all through her life, she demonstrated. And she and we all demonstrated. The importance of a matter of fact, my wife and I have gone through that with my my children and so forth, taking care of their kids and our grandkids. And so we’re still doing it today. You know, we’re still doing it today. And I think it’s just. This part of our family.
Interviewer: All right, now I’m going to open the question to anybody in the room. You know, Peter or Doug or John, if there is anything that that you would like to ask that you feel we haven’t covered or, Fred, if there is anything that you haven’t told us that you feel is important.
Fred Ball: I didn’t. Joe was telling me that I should tell you about the story of Desiand the going to the trip to Canada. Did I tell. Did I tell you that?
Interviewer: Tell me that story.
Fred Ball: OK, Desi had a boat. Balb Bay Club, which is the main one of the main clubs, are in the in a band on the ocean. And where we’re supposed to meet and we’re supposed to go on the boat and go over to Catalina to. Oh, they had a tennis pro that had a club over there in Catalina. So I arrive at the Balbo Bay Club like in the afternoon, wander around, supposed to arrive and desis drinking. And he keeps drinking. And he keeps drinking and he keeps drinking. I say, does it come on. For Christ sake, it’s getting late. We got to get in this boat and get over to Catalina. You know, it’s a two hour trip over the over the channel here. Well, finally, we get away after dark. So we get notice only a 22 foot cabin cruiser. So we get in the boat, we take off. And all of a sea sudden, the seas start to get a little higher, a little higher and a little higher. And we’re out in the middle and this boat is doing this and this. And I and I happened to lean or for some reason or other, and I ran a hasp from a fishing tackle box up and underneath my name. And I’m bleeding all over the place. I got a little cabin light in there. You know what the hell I’m doing? And the waves are getting higher. And all of a sudden, not all of a sudden, but the lights behind us disappear because we’re far enough out. And the waves are so high and the boats go and there’s no lights ahead of us. And the waves are washing over the boat in DSE, opens the window, he sticks his head out the window to find out where the hell he is and he comes back in here. He looked at me and he said, you know. If when we land there singing Aloha, you will know we missed Catalina. And that’s a fact. That’s not an exaggeration, but that was his sense of humor. You know, in spite of that was his sense of humor. And that’s typical of now, that’s not the only incident. But that was one, I think, that always stood out in my mind. We finally did arrive in Catalina.
Interviewer: No, I don’t know if you’ve covered these issues, but I don’t quite get a sense of.
