Michael Kantor: Tell me, you said your brother George didn’t really care about what other musicians said.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: No, he didn’t.
Michael Kantor: But Iroh was more quiet to me than…
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Ira was heartbroken when George died really heartbroken if you read that the book of what what’s his name?
Michael Kantor: Let’s start with George. What happened when George came into a party?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Everybody was after him to play, get to the piano, and that wasn’t very difficult for him to do. He loved going to the Piano, and he knew he was very good in what he did, and everybody enjoyed it.
Michael Kantor: Tell me about when the Gershwins first got a piano.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, I think I told you that it was very conventional at that time for people to have pianos and we could afford one. We got an upright. And when it came through the window on Second Avenue, we lived at Second Avenue at that time. We were all waiting to see what George would do about that. We didn’t know that he played the piano at a friend’s house. Did you have your violinist named Max Rosen?
Michael Kantor: No.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, he was very popular in those days. He was a very good pianist, and his father had a place behind his room.
Michael Kantor: But tell me, the piano came through the window.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: That piano came through the window and it was put on the floor and George went straight to the piano to play and we none of us knew that George played the piano not at all and after that he’s I think he paid 50 cents a lesson my mother paid him my father or a dollar I don’t remember which it was but a very cheap money cheap amount of money and he got to the and Ira was platic acid. But when he heard George play, he didn’t know that George played the piano. They were both in public school. Well, Ira went to college with Yeppahberg. He was a very good friend of Yeppahlberg. Everybody was devastated hearing George play the piano so well at the time, and we were all thrilled about it, of course.
Michael Kantor: Which one? Tell me how your parents influenced your brother’s musical careers.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: They never influenced him. George was independent of my parents, and they didn’t have to influence him in any way. He just did what he wanted to do. He used to make $15 a week at Remix. Do you know Remix? Remix was the place that was popular in vaudeville days. That’s where people went to Remix to hear the music. And they’d always say, go to that room, which was the room that George was in with the upright piano. And that’s where he played. And he’d play for people who wanted to know how songs would sound. It all came so naturally, that’s what I’ve heard. Of course, I was a little girl at that time, and I wasn’t around when that all happened.
Michael Kantor: But neither of your parents, tell me, was your mother or father musical?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: My father was. He loved music and I think I told Louise yesterday that when anybody came into our apartment and many musicians came in and out, that my father would get them at the shows, sit down and play. He wanted to hear music. My mother wasn’t musical but she was very talented in other fields. She would make shreds for them and would our patterns. They always had clean shirts at the school. And I had an Aunt Kate who was a wonderful person. Everybody loved her, my mother’s sister. I wanted to tell you something about her, but…
Michael Kantor: That’s okay. Where were your parents from? Russia. Tell me, do you know anything about their trip over?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: No, but I know I remember my grandfather, who died a long time ago, and my grandmother, I learned a few words from her English at the time. It was all very fascinating. It was so unexpected. And George would quit school. He’d run off somewhere with some friends. My Aunt Kate had to come and speak to the teacher or whoever was there to protect George from being fired or something. You don’t fire from school, whatever. What do they call it?
Michael Kantor: Song plugging, when he was song plugging? Yeah, he was just song-
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: That’s he made $15 a week. We fortunately, my father had a restaurant. Did I mention that to you? My father had restaurant with a man named Wolfen, who’s relatively distant from us. I mean, relatively distant relation. And so they called the restaurant W&G Wolfen and Gershwin’s. It was called W&J, the restaurant. And my father was a very tender, very sweet person. My mother was a strong one in the family, but he loved music. I was remembering when George first got a little car and my father was using it. I got it from a family that… He was picked up by a policeman on Broadway, of course, went through a green light. And I like this story also, that the policeman came up and started writing things, and my father saw him writing. He said, did you ever hear of Judge Gershwin? He had an accent. So he said, Judge, instead of George. So the policeman said, Uptown or downtown station? And he told him, and then he let him go. He said be careful, I tell you, don’t do this again, because he I don’t know if he knew the name of Gershwin. He may have. I don’t know. But anyway, he told me to get along and be more careful. So I always liked that story. I liked the story about what I told you about the whistling in the dark.
Michael Kantor: That’s great. Tell me, how are your brothers different?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Oh, entirely different, as any two brothers can be. George was very strong in personality. Ira was very quiet. Ira, if I’d go to parties with both of them, Ira would sit in the corner and George would be playing the piano. Everybody got him to play the piano, but they loved each other very much. And I think the book I mentioned before, what’s his name?
Michael Kantor: Good luck.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Not only Jablonski, he wrote the book, but, uh…
Michael Kantor: Well, that’s okay. I can incorporate the book into the film. What I’m most interested in is your personal sense of, you know, like they live near each other, didn’t they?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: They had this, they were on the same penthouse, they, George Lippman, one were part of the penthouse and Ira did the other, and I remember when I was married. We couldn’t find, my husband wanted to find a name that would be Semitic, so that he felt he might find, and they did, they found a man, and I don’t remember his name now, but he walked through one of the windows, suddenly this man walked in through a window of the penthouse, and George came in in his robe, I think I mentioned that to you. And that was my wedding party. Especially when Vernon Duke, the composer, asked me to go out with him in Paris, George was very hesitant about it, you know, because he was quite a ladies’ man. He loved very heavy women. I never got over that because he wasn’t heavy himself. He came from Russia and he came to see George at once, and George tried to help him about things that were necessary that he thought. Thank you very much. And I look for it in Duke’s music. He’s one of my favorites.
Michael Kantor: What happened if you used the word darn? What would George?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Oh, George, he didn’t like that. He didn’t that at all if I ever used the word Don, which was very new in those days. He was shocked. He really was. He didn’t like to hear me doing that. Don’t forget, I’m the only sister of three brothers, and George was very protective of me, and he was very wonderful to me. If I needed extra money to take a dance routine, I was a very good tap dancer, and Fred Astaire used to come to our home. His sister, and I never quite understood how she could give up her career because she had a great career ahead of her. She was very talented, just as Fred Astaire was, and that’s about it about Fred Astair.
Michael Kantor: Yeah.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: He was a charming man.
Michael Kantor: Tell me, what happened when George was doing Lady Be Good with Fred Astaire?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: He would come up and ask George some questions about the, that was, Fred Astaire was in that show, Lady B-Good. I think that was the first show that George had, and I think many people were very shocked that he wrote, that he entered the Lambs Club, which I’ve been singing in lately a couple of times. There’s nothing more I can tell you. Ira was very quiet, very reserved, and very, very, a very darling man. And so was George in his way. George was stronger, a stronger personality.
Michael Kantor: But tell me the story that you mentioned yesterday about when George was doing his first show Lady Be Good with Iroh and Fred Astaire was in and George loved to dance.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Oh yes, when he’d come home, he knew I liked that to dance, so he’d come home and he’d say, there’s a wonderful routine, and he would try to explain it to me, but George wasn’t that kind of a dancer. He was a very good dancer, and his rhythm, of course, was wonderful, but he’d love to trip me up a bit.
Michael Kantor: I just wanted to go back on that, you know, when, tell me if you can about when George was doing Lady Be Good, how he tried to copy Fred Astaire at home.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, that’s all I can tell you.
Michael Kantor: Well, just reiterate that topic for me and what was it like seeing him doing it?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, he’d come to our apartment with his sister, Adele, and who was a great talent, and decided to marry somebody. So that she went out of his life also, practically, for that reason, and only when George and I went somewhere and there was dancing going on, he would try to trip me up all the time. But he didn’t succeed very much because I watched his feet. I was dancing with I’m looking down at his feet moving.
Michael Kantor: How did he try and trip you up? What did he do?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: He would do certain rhythms with his feet, and I had to follow those rhythms. You’d have to hear the sound to make a difference. We used to laugh about it, you know. He would really try, because he’s the one that helped me. I took some dancing lessons from a wonderful teacher downtown in the 40s who taught me tap dancing. And I must admit, he said at the time that it was really the kind of rhythm I had. Well, it came naturally.
Michael Kantor: George had great rhythm, too.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, he had more than great rhythm. He had terrific rhythm. His rhythm, it wasn’t just great, it was unusual. So that when he tried to trip me up, we both laughed about it, you see, had fun. And he’s the one who took me to Paris where Cole Porter heard me do some songs at a party of Elsa Maxwell’s and came up to our apartment the next day and he said, George, I want to have your sister go into my review that I’m doing here in Paris. And George didn’t want to agree about that at first because we were all going to Germany, George and Ira and Ira’s wife, we were going to all Germany to visit there. So I stayed on in Paris and. It was very interesting.
Michael Kantor: Do you think Cole Porter was a snob?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, he may be with some people. There’s some people who snob with some people and not with others. That’s all I can say about it. I didn’t find him a snob, but I was a great admirer of his. But we saw him pretty often with Elsa Maxwell, who was a big snob about people. She wasn’t a particularly attractive person physically, but she had something in her personality that attracted people. And And when she went up to George after I sang at a party of hers, she said, George, I’ve never heard anybody do your songs and Iris’ lyrics the way your sister does them. And that was very encouraging to me at the time.
Michael Kantor: That’s great. Tell me, how did George and Ira collaborate? Tell me about them working together.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Oh, they worked wonderfully together. They both were very frank with each other. If George wrote something that Ira didn’t like something in it, he would tell him, and that happened with Ira, with George also. If Ira wrote a lyric that George wasn’t too keen about… He would tell them, and they worked it out. Ira would show up the next morning with a new lyric for whatever he had to do. So they worked, and Ira, they just loved each other. They were just wonderful together and had great respect for one another. And that’s all I can tell you about that, really.
Michael Kantor: Ira loved English, didn’t he? Tell me how I read that.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: What’s interesting about it is my parents came from Russia, and their English wasn’t perfect. They tried to speak good English, and my mother was very conscious of the fact that she didn’t speak very good English and she wasn’t happy about that. But their friends were Russian. But they both were very nice people. My father was a very sensitive man, and I think I told you about when we got a car, how he was stopped by a policeman.
Michael Kantor: Yes, you did. You told that on camera. But where do you think Ira developed his English skills?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, he was a great reader and very intellectually inclined. And when he wrote lyrics, sometimes he’d say all night to get the right words. He was a perfectionist. I can’t tell you anything more about that because my parents didn’t have their education in New York City. He went to City College, and he was a very good friend of Yip Harberg. So they had a lot in common.
Michael Kantor: And I asked you, you know, Ira loved English, and how did he help you with English?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, when I had homework to do, and I couldn’t work on what I was doing, didn’t quite understand something in paragraphs, I’d leave my paper in his room, in Ira’s room, and the next day when I got up it was all fixed in the room. He corrected it for me, and that helped me very much.
Michael Kantor: That’s great. Tell me about when George created his first hit. Do you remember that? What was George’s first hit?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: I think this lady be good.
Michael Kantor: What about his first song that Al Jolson did, do you remember that?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: It’s by Al Jolson, heard the song at a party. He just monopolized the whole thing with his lyrics. But I never heard much from George about that. He just loved that song.
Michael Kantor: That was Swanee, right?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Yeah.
Michael Kantor: Let me ask you this. George, you know, was an incredibly popular man, very strongly attractive to people. Why do you think George never got married?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, I think I know, but I don’t think I should tell this in person.
Michael Kantor: You were saying it had to do, you thought, with a role model. That’s right.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: That’s right. There wasn’t a real role model with my mother. George was rather conventional about that sort of thing. And I told you, I think you remember I told, he loved ice cream and he’d come up to see my mother and me. We all lived in the same apartment. Bring up some ice cream, and then we’d all sit down and he’d finish it. He especially, he loved ice cream. But most, I can think about that.
Michael Kantor: Your mother was obviously an ambitious woman, a strong woman.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: She was a strong woman, and my father was more like Ira, more sensitive, but they cared for each other very much. There was no divorce in the family. I’ve heard from other people my mother was a very strong personality. I always think of George really being the son of my mother. He was a strong personality, and as I said before, when he came into a room, you could feel his presence. And of course, he got to the piano at once, and he adored playing, because he did so well.
Michael Kantor: You also mentioned, I think, that would he play the same song identically?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: No, he had his own way of writing songs, or listening to them, or playing them. He had his style. There’s a story, but I don’t remember it clearly, about his coming to New York from wherever he was. And I don’t know if we should even put this in. You know, there was so much anti-Semitism. But George never paid any attention to it. And when you go to a party, he would tell funny stories about my father. He loved to tell these stories about my father, which were amusing. And he would talk very freely about what he thought about it. And he never made one conscious of the fact that he thought about anti-Semitism. He was very free and said what he thought and very honest, very honest personality. Ira was just very quiet. And he’s a fellow who would sit in the corner of a party and let George take over. But I’ve heard from people how heartbroken he was. When I came back from Europe one summer.
Michael Kantor: Tell me about what you know about George composing Porgy and Bess. How did he do it? He went down south, didn’t he?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Mm-hmm. Well, he was a friend of, he became a friend of the writer, what’s his name? Who wrote for him? Dubose. Dubose Haybird. They became friends, and George went down there. And then a cousin of mine named Harry Botkin was a painter. And some of the things I have here, I learned a lot from him because I was very interested in painting.
Michael Kantor: But George was beginning to work on Porgy, and didn’t he go down south to South Carolina?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: He went to South Carolina to be with, what’s his name?
Michael Kantor: Two bows.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Du Bois Heyward, and they got along very well. And Du Boise Heyward told him that during a, what do they call when black people sing together? I’m getting a little strange now.
Michael Kantor: Um, I don’t know, a revival.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: A revival. Well, George went to the revivals that he could go to, and he’d get up and clap with them. They all kept rhythm. And Du Bois Heyward said, George, nobody but you could have stood up there and let the audience take it, that you got up there, and clapped with them. George was rather surprised about that. But as I said, that’s all tied up with the fact that they’d come around and sit outside of their little house on the porch to listen to George play. Pray or while George composed something himself. Well, he was wonderful that way. He was very willing to take another person’s opinion. I always admired him for that reason. And no matter what anybody said, he knew what he thought. And he carried out what he’d thought so that when people would criticize him that he hugged the piano at a party, well, they all loved it because it was such fun. He was wonderful at parties for that reason. He was a wonderful at the parties period.
Michael Kantor: Let me just finish that quick story. I didn’t, that George was composing Porgy and Bess in a place in North, in South Carolina. And what would happen with the piece?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: I forgot to tell you that he ordered a very special piano that would be good for him to write his music and he was very proud of that piano. He designed it because he wanted it to be just right for him. I wasn’t around too much then because I was living in Rochester.
Michael Kantor: Right. What do you miss most about George?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: I just miss him. Isn’t that enough? I miss him very much. When I hear things that I like very much, and things that are not so good, I feel, well, this could have been better. I had my own feeling about the music. And George liked me to do his songs because I did them well, if you don’t mind my saying so.
Michael Kantor: Not at all. What about IRA? When you think about IRA, what?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: And Ira was very reserved and very quiet. They made a wonderful pair. They balanced each other. And Ira and George would not like a certain word that was used in a lyric. And Ira would disappear and come back and have it straightened out. They got along very well.
Michael Kantor: Were you close with Ira?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Not terribly, but I did see him a few times before he died. I went out to California, and George was wonderful. When I went on the ship going over there with Ira and Leonore, my sister-in-law, and I complained, there was a young man I liked on the boat, and he liked me. So we’d take walks together. But whenever Leonore… I shouldn’t say this. I’d better not say it.
Michael Kantor: Okay, but when you think about Ira, what do you miss most about him?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, he wasn’t as friendly as George. He was a very reserved man. And all I can think about it is that they got along wonderfully.
Michael Kantor: Do you have a favorite show of theirs? Which is your favorite show and why?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: I’d have to think about that. Maybe when I sing some songs, I may say, one of these is one of my favorite songs.
Michael Kantor: And and
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, when George took me when I was about 20 years old, and I was so pleased that he took me to a party, there was a man named Jules Glenser. Ever hear of him? He was Cartier’s man. He was a mad that was connected with Cartier jewelry. And I remember going with George to one of these parties. When I was little I was very shy. And this woman that was with him was not very sensitive because she must have realized I was a very young girl at that time and that I was going to this big party. I was real self-conscious about it. My mother didn’t like this girl because she was rather cold. That’s why I don’t want to mention names. She was rather cold. Just didn’t give anybody any thought except herself. And I remember going to these parties, but I do know that George would be grabbed by people. Come on, George. Let’s hear this or that. And he was delighted to do it. He loved playing his own music. No question about that. He enjoyed what he did, and Ira was very proud of him.
Michael Kantor: And did George like your singing? What did George sing?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: He must have because wherever we went in Paris, when I was in Paris with him, people got to know that I did George’s songs, and I think I mentioned to you that ex-Elsa Maxwell came to George after I did some songs and said, George, Cole Porter is coming up and I want him to hear your sister, and Cole Porter came up soon after that, and that was the next day when he came to our apartment to ask me to have an audition. That was it.
Michael Kantor: When you think of George’s music, do you think more classical music or Broadway?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Well, I love classical music too, but I think I have to think of George and when I hear things that are not very good, I think, I bet George would have made a big difference in this particular show that I was seeing and that’s what my thoughts were. I felt very sad about that, that he wasn’t around because he would, because when I was in California with George, I’ll never forget that he said to us, I’m going get out of Los Angeles. Because I want to get back to New York. And he said, I have so many ideas, so many things I want do. I can’t begin to tell you. He told us that. My husband was there at the time. And I never forgot that because he looked very well, but then he started getting these bad headaches because he had a tumor, I think, in the back of his. That’s what got him at last at that time. But he was a very loving brother, more than Ira because Ira was more staid. Ira was very, I can’t, I think I’ve told you.
Michael Kantor: Where were you when you heard about George’s?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: I was in. I was. Europe at the time, and I was going to Venice. And at the, what was the man’s name? I was so, such a busybody on the news. He’s a well-known writer. He’s still around. And Leonor said, called me, and she said, don’t pay, it was in the papers that George Watson well, and she says to me, don’t pay any attention to him. It was a very well-known… Gossip. Walter Winchell. She said, don’t pay any attention to Walter Winschel. You know how he talks about things. She said don’t care. And I didn’t until I got to Vienna. And in Vienna, I got a cable from Ira saying everything possible was done. George, so and so and, so what happened. It was a great shock, as you can imagine. Hira never got over it, never. And in my own way, I never got over it. I mean, I don’t sit around and think about this. It’s been many years now. It just makes me sad when I hear some music, and I don’t particularly care, but I’m very sensitive to that. And I think, what would George have done at such a time? I would go through my mind. That’s about it.
Michael Kantor: Tell me about the Lower East Side, what was it like? Was it crowded? What? Lower East side.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: No, I wasn’t a dooper of that. I, listen, I was just a kid then.
Michael Kantor: Wasn’t George always roller skating, fleeing from gangs? That’s what I read.
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: No, he never flees. I never heard of that. Never.
Michael Kantor: Wasn’t he a roller skating king?
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: Yes, he loved to roller skate, and he went around town just doing what he wanted. And as I said, when I used the word Don, he was very shocked that I used such a word. He really was. I mean, there are things in one’s life that you can’t always tell, you know.
Michael Kantor: So tell me if…
Frances Gershwin Godowsky: I’m going to do a song that both my brothers, when I was with them and they didn’t agree at first because Ira’s lyric, George’s music was so technical that Ira said, can I, what am I going to about that, you know, that sort of thing. Oh gee, oh joy, the birds are singing, because why? Because I am in love. Oh gee oh joy the bells are ringing, because, why? Because I am in love and although I may seem in a dream I never was so happy folks complain I’m insane Because I act so sadly Oh, gee, oh, joy, the birds are singing, because why? Because I am in love. I’d like to sing a song that my brothers wrote, which I’m very fond of. How’s that? Oh gee oh joy the birds are singing because why because i am in love oh gee or joy the bells are ringing because why because i’m in love and although i may seem in a dream i never was so happy folks complain i’m insane because i act so sappy oh gee oh joy the birds are singing because why because i am in love That seems a little high to me. Hi-ho. Is that it? No, that’s it. Hi-hoe. But isn’t love great? Gee whiz. Yay-bo. I’m willing to say it is. Don’t know who the chap was who first began it. But it’s the only thing on this planet. Oh gee oh joy. The birds are singing, because why? Because I am in love. Oh gee, oh joy, the bells are ringing. Because why? Because I’m in love, and although I may seem in a dream, I never was so happy. Folks complain I’m insane, because I act so sappy. Oh gee oh joy. The birds are singing because why because i am in love i felt a little more comfortable there I was in Delaware with George Winishow open there, and all the insides of the roof came down on the floor. That’s what happened, really. Vodka don’t give me vodka for when i take a little drink i forget to think what a little drink can do to me oh vodka don’t t give me vodka for when I take a little sip I forget to slip and I start romancing with the man that I am dancing with so vodka makes me feel odd. I go and grab a six foot two anyone will do if he’s only wise enough to see I won’t scream should he kiss me wouldn’t if I could couldn’t if i would oh vodka You ruined me, me My parents came from Russia and of course vodka was very important to them. Vodka, don’t give me vodka, for when I take a little drink, I forget to think what a little will do to me. Vodka. Don’t give vodka, for when take a sip, I begin to slip. I wish I could slip here. And I start romancing with the man that I am dancing with. So vodka makes me feel odd. I go and grab a six foot two, anyone will do if he’s only wise enough to see that I won’t scream should he kiss me wouldn’t if I could, couldn’t if i would but My parents were Russian, and my father particularly liked vodka. Don’t give me vodka, for when I take a little drink, I forget to think what a little drink can do to me. Vodka, don’t give vodka, or when I take a sip, I begin to slip and I stop romancing with the man that I am dancing with. So vodka makes me feel odd. I go and grab a six foot two, anyone will do, if he’s only wise enough to see. I won’t scream should he kiss me, wouldn’t if I could, couldn’t if i would, vodka, you ruin me. My brother George wrote a song that he enjoyed very much himself. I’m so crazy over you lonely where am i gonna go if you turn me down why black and all my skies are blue i tell you i’m not asking any allergy man who will me one, sorry. My one and only. There isn’t a reason why you should turn me down when I’m so crazy over you. My brother and my brothers wrote this song. It was very shocking because the whole ceiling came down on us, but no one was hurt, which was fortunate. What am I going to do if you turn me down when I’m so crazy over you? I’d be so lonely, where am I gonna go if you turn me down? Why blacken all my skies of blue? I tell you, I’m not asking any miracle It can’t be done, it can’t done I know clergyman who will grow lyrical And make us one and make us once so My one and only There isn’t a reason why you should turn me now When I’m so crazy over you
