Michael Kantor: Question, which is you talked about the Broadway musical as marking a moment in one’s memory, sort of an emotional high point. What do you think gives the Broadway Musical its essential power. What does it take? For those of us…
William Goldman: For me, it was when I was a young boy in Chicago, and I went to see a touring company, I think with Todd Duncan and Ann Brown, of Porgy and Bess, and we had very good seats, very close. I must have been eight or seven. And at the end, Porgy, who was a cripple on a goat cart, is in love with a village beauty, Beth. And Porgy goes to jail for killing Crown, the village And while he is gone, sporting life, drug pushers, seduces Beths to go off to New York, which is like the other side of the universe, from this cartridge with this little town down south. And Porgy’s in jail, and he doesn’t know. And Porgey gets out of jail. And everybody says, hey, Porgy, how are you? All this talk. And I’m sitting there. Dreading the moment when they have to tell him that best is good. And he says, where’s Bess? And bumfer-fumfer, and they say, she’s gone to New York with sporting life. And there’s this pause. And then he said three words that have not changed my life. He says, bring my goat. And I thought, holy shit, he’s going to go. He doesn’t know how far it is. He doesn’ know what it is, and they bring this fucking goat cart. And everybody starts listening to one of the great songs of all time, Oh Lord, I’m on my way. And I started to sob hysterically. And the play ends, and applause, and I am still sobbing. I’m out of all control. I could do it for you now if I wanted to. And people get up and I’m still crying. Now we start up the aisle and there’s, you know, the rustle of coats and people whispering, but the main sound is this sobbing, this hysterical sobbing. And I can still remember people touching my head and saying to my parents, is he okay? Is there anything we can do? And I was like that all the way home and we lived in the suburbs. And that experience affected me. In the sense of, if something can move you like that, you have to gravitate toward it. Now, I think it’s a phenomenal moment, and I’m not the only one to get hysterical there, but I’ll never get over it. I can remember a great deal about that, where we were sitting and whatever, where Porgy was when he said, bring my goat and all that. I really can, because that’s one of the searing memories of my life. And I suppose, I went to a lot of theater when I was a kid. In Chicago, a lot of theater. And I suppose that was the seminal theater experience for me. And you want to duplicate that. What you want when you go to any of it, when you got to see a painting, you want the same thing. You want to be moved. You want either laugh or you want to cry, you want feel something. I mean, we’re all only here a limited number of days. And we want to have as much. Legal pleasure as we can. And when I go to the theater, for example, musical or straight play, I know nothing about it. I don’t read reviews. I don’t know anything about how many characters there are, when it takes place. I want to be as virginal as I can so the storyteller can tell me his story without me knowing that the butler did it. And so often, at anything, You’re just disappointed because you want something so wonderful, and it’s hard to do it. My God, it’s harder to do. And I think that’s why we go to any of the arts. We want, I mean, I think one of the reason, one of few places left where there are real stars is no longer the dance, I don’t think. But opera, and I think we know if we go hear Domingo, even now, we’re gonna hear one of great voices in history. And so we know that’s an experience that he’ll always be there. But I mean, there were no longer. When I came to New York, we had stars. I mean the Luntz were stars. Put them in a show, they’d run it for a year and a year on the road. Didn’t make a lot of money, but it kept a lot. The concept of hit has changed now. Shows are running for decades. That never used to happen. You have a play like Great Cat Story. I’ve only seen Cass West. I’m in London. A friend of mine got tickets. We had front row seats for cats. And there was a huge thing that drops, a boxing glove or something, I can’t remember what. And we’re sitting in the front row, and this thing drops. And it woke me up. I realized, oh my god, I’ve been asleep. How embarrassing. The cast is four feet away from me, and I’m sleeping in their faces. I said to my then-wife, I fell asleep. And she said, so did I. And the two people we were with when we got to the lobby had done this. I had this image for cats. Here are these four Americans sitting rudely sleeping. That’s what I think of cats. Cats should put anybody to sleep. I mean, it’s one of those things where it’s great now for the Japanese tourists. I love that it’s running. I love it helps the economy of the city I live in. I wish it were something. That’s what it was.
Michael Kantor: What do you think makes the musical so American? It’s not a sort of British or…
William Goldman: I don’t know, it’s just, because we had all that talent. There’s a thing we don’t now, and it’s this, talent tends to cluster. There were a million playwrights around, Shakespeare, there were at least four in ancient Greece, there were Tolstoy and Chekhov, met each other, knew each other. I mean, there was, they were not, and we had, in the 20s, 30s, whatever we had. Order them as you will. We had Gershwin, we had Berlin, we had Kern, we have Rogers. I’m leaving out, we had Porter. There are about six others. And that burst of talent was so extraordinary that I think that, and also in those days, a lot of your readers or watcher viewers will be shocked to know a hit Broadway song became the number one song in the country. It was a whole different deal. And I think What’s I don’t This is my theory, I think we are in all the arts, in all of the arts at a time of low talent. I don’t think there were a lot of terrific screenwriters, I don’t think there are a lot of terrific choreographers, I don think there’re a lot of terrific Italian tenors. I think it’s a time of low-talent in any art you want to look at. And of course Broadway, I mean there aren’t that many guys who get a shot each year. How many new musicals come in, eight, six, four, ten? I mean, there aren’t t many. And one of them will be Sondheim and one will be Kander and Abba. How many guys, how many do you wanna risk X million dollars on a kid? Well, it’s harder now, it’ harder now. I think if one of the breaks through, if one them would write a gigantic hit, more people would say, let’s give attention to this guy, that guy, you know, it like, I’m not the world’s greatest lover of rent. But I mean, I think. That helped a lot. I mean, it’s possible to have. And also the shows now, when I got into writing novels in the middle 50s. You didn’t make a lot of money. Except for James Mitchner, who was the number one commercial writer for that long period. No one really made much money. And I think the same was true in the theater. You didn’t have Disney stores next to Lion King. You didn have the kind of long runs and merchandising. I mean, these shows now. I mean, isn’t Phantom bigger than ET? I mean it will continue to be. I mean the amount of money that comes in from Phantom day after year is something that didn’t used to happen. I mean yeah, Oklahoma was a long run. There were a couple, but for the most part, these huge runs and these huge selling make these things more of a commercial. I don’t know, it’s tough. But I don’t think there’s a lot of talent around.
Michael Kantor: On their myth of Broadway is. I mean, Broadway, you grew up outside of New York. Everyone has this idea of what Broadway is or can do. What is that?
William Goldman: Oh, it’s magic. It’s this thing, you know, Fred Astaire worked there. All these people, Gene Kelly, all the people who we love now, they won’t make musicals in Hollywood now, for whatever reason, until somebody makes one and it makes a lot of money and then they’ll all make music because they’re all following the leader out there as they should and always have. But it used to be this wonderful magical place that brought back all these incredible memories of people. Better than we were solving problems that made us happy to beautiful music. And that’s hard to do now. I don’t know that you could make those musicals work, but I mean, you look at Chicago and Cabaret, neither of which, I mean those are, they will still be running. Those are phenomenal productions. I mean, they’re just amazing, and they’re both incredibly better than they were originally. I mean remarkably better. The best productions of Sondheim’s work I’ve ever seen are in London. Usually in small theaters, usually without all of the huge appurtenances that the American directors put on. I don’t know.
Michael Kantor: Two things, both pertaining to Broadway. One is the risk. Since day one, it’s always been a risk.
William Goldman: Shit
Michael Kantor: Help us understand that the risk of doing a show
William Goldman: Well, it’s changed. It used to be there was a thing called angels. And what you would do if you were Hal Prince or the great George Abbott or somebody and you were producing, you would call on your backers. And you would say, here’s the show I’m doing. And they had made money out of you before. So basically, it was all done. You could do it in a day if you are a big enough producing star. Then when the costs began to escalate. That’s gone. No one’s going to give you $80,000 or $150,000. They will give you three. So God knows where you get the money now. It’s a huge thing. But it’s true in movies, too. If you were out in Hollywood now, and you were seriously talking with the top executives, they would say, movies are a terrible business. You don’t know that, because on the entertainment channel, it says, isn’t it great? It’s not great. They’re losing a fucking fortune, and they know it. They can’t stop it. A couple of years ago, Hollywood began to take co-financing. The first studio, I think, was Paramount. Everybody said, oh, Paramount, there’s such wusses. Now, everybody’s doing it.
Michael Kantor: Okay, great. Let’s take to Broadway real fast.
William Goldman: OK.
Michael Kantor: What about in the 60s, clearly you had Fiddler, you had Hello Dolly, but by the time you wrote your book, you could feel things were changing and it was going to sort of become Kander and Ebsondheim, a couple of people. What happened? Why did that happen at that point, not Andrew Lloyd Webber’s time?
William Goldman: No, he didn’t come here. I don’t know. It’s an odd thing. I I mean, Kander and Evan Sondheim did shows, but I can’t remember if they were… Well, Cabaret was a great success. I mean there was some stuff, but for the most part… It was, I think, not a great period. I can’t remember going through the 60s, what was there. I mean, I don’t know when Man of La Mancha was. I did not like it. It is not for my sensibility. Not to say it’s not a wonderful show, I didn’t like it, I don’t have commercial taste, did I say? I mean the only, I’m trying to think of what I like that’s a big hit, and I guess Fiddler is the biggest hit that I ever really, but for the most part, those shows that run and run and run and ran and run, chorus line alone. These are odd things that happen. I mean, it’s not like you have, you’re not gonna do one every, it’s so hard to do a musical. You can’t really do them very frequently. Also, if people have a hit, they change. They change because in the first place, if it’s their first hit, their life changes. They’re successful for the first time, they’re making money for the time. That has a huge effect on people. There was a line Mr. Abbott said, who was one of my heroes, about Lerner and Lowe. But I think it was about Alan Lerne. Don’t use this as nasty. He said, when the sheets at the Ritz Hotel are not of sufficient quality for you, you are not willing to do the Spartan labor. You are not going to do the Spartana labor that bringing in a musical require. I suppose you can use that, it’s a terrific quote. It’s brutally hard. One of the things people are always shocked at is that songwriters can write under the pressure of the road. Talk to any songwriter, they’ll tell you it’s easier writing on the road because they know the voice they’re writing for. They know the limitations. When Sondheim has to write Send in the Clowns, he knows Glenis John’s voice. He’s not gonna give her a huge coloratura work. She can’t do that. But it’s very hard to do a musical. You ever look at anybody who’s brought in a show, hit or flop, they’re wiped out. It’s not like a movie where you’re done with it six months in advance. In the theater, you’re working up until opening night and you know you have troubles in act two, but you also know all the shows that were great hits that had troubles in Act Two and got away with it. And you fantasize, isn’t it great? We’re gonna be, I’ll go to Monte Carlo in the morning and then The Times kills you and you’re dead the next three years of your life. And it’s over. And to get back up after a flop is hard. And everything changes you, because it’s so, if you and I decided to make a musical of this interview, which would be the worst show of all time, it would be three years before it would come out. And you get obsessive. You’re thinking of nothing else but this show. Your marriage life sucks. Everything goes down, and you’re dealing, why doesn’t that goddamn scene work? Why is that song wrong? Am I gonna get fired? What is the director doing in these? All these things go through your head, because you know, if God smiles on you, you’re set for the rest of your life. And you also feel great about yourself, all that stuff. It’s hard to do. Have any young composers for the theater had more than one show? I mean, Cantor and I have had a dozen. Son of I’ve had a dozens. Jerry Herman’s had a bunch. But they’re all older generation. Have any, has anybody under 40 or under 35? Had two shotless, maybe there are, I can’t think of one. I never met anybody as insecure as to whether he had any talent. He used to say, I don’t know if I have any talent or if there’s no talent in the room. He knew he was not Robbins and he was not Robins and he knew he wasn’t Balanchine and he wasn’t not Balanchin. Robbins was not Balanche. Those were the two giants of the century probably. But he was, I think, very… He was just so brilliant, and you’d say, you want to hit him on the head and say, yes, yes, it’s terrific, go on, do more, do more, and he was always difficult. He was always so hard on himself.
Michael Kantor: Let’s cut for a sec, let me just check how much. He is a teeny, teeny place.
William Goldman: It is a pimple. It used to have, and I think it still does. I think, it can still explode somebody faster than anything. I think based on, if you’re somebody who hits in a, if you are somebody who hit in a Broadway show, I’m trying to think of a name the last couple years, all of a sudden everybody loves you. It still can do that. If a career is in trouble, when Richard Burton was in trouble he came to Broadway to salvage his career, that still holds. Any actor on his uppers who comes to, The critics say, oh, he must be serious. He’s not a movie whore. He wants to do good things. So it can still explode a career faster than anything. And you’re also getting a smarter audience, maybe. I don’t know about that. Smarter audience than the movie audience. I don’t know. You’re getting a more experienced audience. It’s older. What can I say? When I go to the theater, I’m a kid. It’s not true when you go to movies. It’s like, in the theater, what the theater’s got to do… And I think it is doing it now. I think rent’s a huge help. I think bringing the noise was a huge. When you get young people into the experience, it’s so phenomenal. They’re gonna do it again. They’re going to come again. They may want to work in it. I mean, Savion Glover is a very great talent. God knows what will happen to him, but he’s a very good talent.
Michael Kantor: Just one sec.
William Goldman: Oh, when you see a great musical, I remember when everybody dies at the end of West Side Story and you sit there and you can’t fucking believe it. They killed people in a musical. And it was so sad because they were such decent kids and you thought, oh my God, what is this? What can a musical do? The first act, Curtin, I’m going back to Gypsy, when she starts to sit, when she goes mad and is gonna make the other kid a star, you sit and you’re, how many parents? I mean, essentially. It can be thrilling because the people are alive. You’re seeing real actors up there. And when they thrill you, it’s different from being one of 4,000 prints when you’re watching the new Star Wars. You’re the only one seeing the guy in Cabaret. You’re only one watching the lady as Linda Lohman. It’s an amazing experience when it works. And it moves you, I think, way beyond. Movies are much more temporary. And in the theater, I think, at last. If it’s wonderful for a very long time.
Michael Kantor: But you also, you have to see that star, don’t you?
William Goldman: You do. It’s one of the things where you want to see the reason shows sell out, you want to see Kevin Spacey. You want to the guy in Salesman. You wanna see Brian Dennehay. There’s no understudy. If he’s sick, no show. There is, there is an, these are wonderful actors in there. And Danny is giving his career performance. I mean, I wanted to see that exact cast go off with that director and next year bring in a long day’s journey and a night. I mean I wanted them to do it. It’s just, it’s just wonderful. It’s like a glorious thing. I sound like an idiot at a rock concert. It’s Just fabulous. But it is, it just fabulous when it works. It never worked. It’s one of my favorite shows. My brother wrote the book and I was around for a lot of it. It’s much harder. It never worked commercially, it never did. It’s one of those things where, like a lot of my favorite shows, Company never worked commercial, these are not hits. People talk about them, it’s like West Side and Gypsy. They were not, it was too, I don’t know what. They all, God knows they wanted it to be a hit. It was different, it a fabulous show. I saw it out in New Jersey, it still is wonderful. With a wonderful cast.
Michael Kantor: What about David Merrick? Who was he? What was he like?
William Goldman: Well, he doesn’t matter. He was just one of these figures. He was like an agent. He was a hugely successful, publicity-seeking, brilliant man who had a period of successful shows. And he loved publicity. There was another man at the same time who no one heard of named Kermit Blumgarten who did, essentially, a lot of the same stuff, but he was not famous, because Merrick wanted that. And Merrick for a while had the Merrick had the inside track on the snob hit. He would bring over whatever the snub hit was, and he also, and I wish you were working for this reason alone, he was brilliant at advertising. Like Miramax in films is brilliant at films, Merrick was the best advertiser for a show I ever saw. He got every conceivable ounce of interest that his show had. He was fabulous in this.
