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Marc:               I think it is, but I also think that we have a natural aversion to people whose lives are ending.

Susan:              Yes.

Robert:            Um-hum.

Marc:               We want to stay away from them because they scare the heck out of us.

Susan:              Um-hum.

Marc:               And so it's counterintuitive to spend time with people who are very sick and people who are hurting. But that's something that requires a little bit of courage. And if you study and you work at it- I care more that a person develops courage skills to walk into the setting that is full of pain than I care if that person is spiritual, 'cause I don't know what spiritual means there. I know what it means to walk into a room when someone is screaming and crying. And you, you do too. That requires the acquisition of skill and training and, in those mundane moments, so that you can be effective and helpful in those settings. And in relationship when people are, are at their worst.

James:              Well, Marc, one of the things that I've tried to do to help us deal with the horror of death itself is that I have suggested that when a person is informed that they have a terminal disease, that they should seek to have their congregation plan a dinner for them in the congregation, and that they should sit with their friends and talk about, I don't know how long it's going to be...

Marc:               Um-hum. Um-hum.

James:              ...but while I'm able to hear and talk about it and discuss, let's celebrate my life 'cause when they get the memorial service or the funeral, I won't be able to hear any of this.

Susan:              They're gonna miss it.

James:              And we've had several experiences. And I, I, I get this from Jesus, who when he was dying went to be with Mary and Martha, and they had a big dinner for him.

Susan:              Um-hum.

James:              I propose that religious communities learn how to celebrate life before it has reached the extremity of pain and suffering. Narcoed, you know, morphined out of the awareness of the pain.

Marc:               That's right.

James:              Let's let's, let's say, if the end is coming, let's extract as much meaning as we can out of it!