Charlie
Rose:
In 1996, musician Ry
Cooder traveled to Cuba in
search of a group of
elderly musicians. These
Latin jazz artists had
flourished in pre-Castro
Cuba, but had since been
largely forgotten. In
1997, the assembled group,
known as Buena Vista
Social Club, released
their first album. That
effort revived the
vanishing cultural sound
and won the group a 1997
Grammy, as well as a
chance to play Carnegie
Hall.
Two years ago,
acclaimed filmmaker Wim
Wenders accompanied Cooder
to Havana to capture these
performers and their music
on film. Here is a clip
from the resulting
documentary.
[excerpt from Buena
Vista Social Club]
CR:
Joining me now, the film's
producer, musician Ry
Cooder, and the film's
director, Wim Wenders. I'm
pleased to have them here
to talk about this
phenomenal film.
This began with you.
Ry
Cooder:
Uh-huh.
CR:
You went and searched
these -- I mean, what --
it began with, actually,
you heard something years
and years and years ago,
and just kept it around
the house?
RC:
Well, I kept listening to
these tapes and these old
records I had a few of.
And then finally,
suddenly, a little, tiny
window of opportunity
opened up to get down
there and actually meet
these people and hear them
play and try to record
them.
CR:
But what was the sound
that sort of -- you
couldn't get out of your
head in terms of wanting
at least to know more,
find more?
RC:
Right. It's a kind of a --
it's a kind of a mix of
archaic, European-based
dance music, 19th century,
and this African rhythmic
sort of pulse that they
combine these two musical
ideas together in the most
amazing way. And they sing
all these beautiful songs,
and I just love beautiful
song. And they not only do
it well, but they do it
with a kind of a -- of a
mysterious sort of--
there's a sort of a grace
that they have as people,
that they dance, that they
move, the way they are
with each other. And it's
just something that you--
it calls to you.
CR:
So between the time you
heard that the first time
--
RC:
Right.
CR:
-- those albums you took
back--
RC:
Yeah.
CR:
-- and then you went back
in search of these
musicians--
RC:
Right.
CR:
How long, 20 years?
RC:
No, no. Well, actually,
that's right, from the
'70s -- I'd been down
there in the '70s, and
then ended up back in the
'90s, so it is actually
about 20 years.
CR:
And where were these guys?
RC:
Well, a lot of them have
died, but then these guys
had-- the ones that lived
on just kind of faded into
the -- into the woodwork
down there. They didn't
have much to do. They
didn't have places to
work. And the music became
archaic and just
disappeared and was
replaced by salsa and
other more modern forms,
you know?
But they -- they were
there. They just had to be
kind of jump-started and
gotten together. You know,
they need a context.
CR:
And having you show up
must have been-- with an
interest in their music,
must have been like a
Godsend for them.
RC:
Well, of course, we came
in -- they have no idea
who you are when you come
from the outside world.
You could be anybody. So
what you have to do is
quickly reveal to them,
which we tried to do, your
intention. First of all,
you love the music, and
you're interested in them
as people, and you -- I
wanted to play with them.
I actually just wanted to
do it for me.
So if you can get this
across on a personal
level, then they respond
and think, "Well,
this would be fun. This is
somehow going to be
beneficial.'' And of
course, to be given an
opportunity to play is the
more important for a
musician, the worst thing
being -- is to be
neglected, which is kind
of what had happened to
them, see?
CR:
Now, why was that? Why had
they been neglected?
RC:
Well, because old people
all over the world are
very often marginalized
right out of their life, I
mean, in a sense. Also
because this song form,
this older style, had --
had kind of fallen away
from popularity in Cuba.
And there just isn't much
of a musical scene down
there in the sense of
work. They don't record.
There's no record industry
there. There's barely a
nightclub scene, you know?
And these folks in their
80s and 90s and 70s, they
just didn't have anything
to do anymore.
CR:
And so you then set up the
idea --
RC:
Right.
CR:
--"We're going to
play.''
RC:
Yeah, "Let's get
together and play. We get
everybody in a room, turn
the tape machine on and
see what we can do,'' and
of course, come back every
day and keep doing it and
keep doing it. And the
playback is the greatest
thing for a musician, the
call of the playback, if
you like --
CR:
Yeah.
RC:
-- to hear what you're
doing played back. And
it's sounds big and fat,
and it's the way it should
be. And then that's very
encouraging, you see? And
so each day, you build
something and you build
something, and you get to
be friends, and it's--
they love to play, so
that's what you're trying
to get on tape.
CR:
And nobody objected.
RC:
Nope.
CR:
They loved it.
RC:
Oh, absolutely. Sure.
CR:
And you loved it.
RC:
One hundred percent, yeah.
CR:
Because you love the
music, because you love
Cuba, you love these guys,
what?
RC:
All those things. I mean,
of course, being a player,
I want to be around-- all
my life I've wanted to be
around great players or
people who played music
that pulled me, that was
fascinating. And this is
not just a couple but
many. In this world today,
in the '90s, I keep
thinking how rare is this,
you know, that you can
find a group like this,
still in touch with their
own culture and their own
music. So much of musical
culture over the world is
just being eclipsed, you
know, and been just wiped
out.
CR:
Yeah. So you were -- in a
sense, were doing
something for posterity
because these guys were
dying.
RC:
It's true. You try and
inject a little lifespan
into the music, if you
can, you know?
CR:
And how does this result
in a Grammy?
RC:
Ah! Yeah, I don't know. It
happened. So this
project's been very
blessed by recognition
from outside, from other
people, from people who
never even heard of Cuban
music before. They feel
connected to it in some
way, and I've had a lot of
people -- Latin people,
non-Latin people, people
of all kinds -- come up in
the streets -- sometimes
I'm in the grocery store
and in the line at the
bank -- telling me how
great this is and how they
love the film and how
touched everybody seems to
feel. And so that's --
that's as much as you can
hope for.
CR:
Now, how -- so how'd you
get involved in this
thing?
Wim Wenders: Well, Ry
got me hooked. I had no
idea about the history of
it. I was working with Ry.
When he came back from
Havana, recording the
first album, we were
working on a score, and I
was trying to get Ry to be
concentrated because he
always sort of looked in
the distance and smiled,
and I knew he was back in
Havana.
CR:
He's not with you!
Wim
Wenders: He
wasn't with me.
CR:
So you said, "If
you're not going to be
with me, take me to where
the hell you are."
WW:
Yeah. So one day I said,
"Can't you give me a
cassette of the music you
were doing?'' The album
wasn't out yet. So he gave
me a cassette, and I
listened to it in my car.
I stopped the car and
parked it because I just
couldn't believe it. I
heard that rough mix
three, four times that
night, and the next
morning I went to Ry and
said, "Who are these
guys you made this music
with? It's unbelievable.
Who are these kids?'' And
he says -- [laughter]
'They ain't exactly
kids.''
CR:
Yeah.
WW:
And he told me the stories
of some of these people,
and then I knew I just had
to go see for myself.
CR:
So you two went to Havana.
RC:
We went back again.
WW:
For the second album.
RC:
For the second album
that's been made and
released. And Wim
photographed those
sessions and went and did
filmed interviews with
each in turn, in different
locations, and began to
build up the story of this
thing. And then, of
course, we went from there
to a few concert venues so
that we could have live
footage of everybody. And
on it went.
CR:
Yeah. Becoming -- becoming
a documentary about what?
WW:
I don't even know it's a
documentary. At the end of
the shoot -- because we
shot in Havana, then we
shot in Amsterdam, and
finally we shot here in
New York. And at the end
of the shoot, it didn't
feel really like it was a
documentary anymore. It
felt like it was a true
character piece.
CR:
In other words, you
selected these musicians.
These guys were playing a
role of a musician, and
they had inhabited the
role.
WW:
Totally. And their life
stories were -- were in
front of us, and it was
really like fiction. And
it was bigger than I ever
thought, this movie, in
terms of the -- in terms
of these people being
bigger than life
themselves. It's in all of
them. Didn't feel like I
was making a movie with
some Cuban musicians. Felt
like I was making a movie
with Humphrey Bogart and
-- and Cary Grant. I mean,
they're big.
CR:
I can't imagine what it
meant for them. All of a
sudden -- one guy was
shining shoes.
RC:
Well, totally.
CR:
Totally.
RC:
Which in Havana means
you're about as poor as
you can get.
CR:
Shining shoes.
RC:
Shining shoes in Havana,
yeah.
CR:
You come down, and he's --
and he's a vocalist.
RC:
Yeah, singer.
CR:
Singer.
RC:
Uh-huh.
CR:
He's now singing.
WW:
He's singing. He's filling
concert halls all over the
world. I mean, they were
in Vienna at the opera
house, and they had a
standing ovation, Rubén
and Ibrahim, for 20
minutes. Never happened in
the history of the
Viennese opera house. Even
Richard Strauss didn't get
that sort of applause.
CR:
This is great! What is it
about them?
WW:
It is that they are the
way they are, and they --
CR:
What's that?
WW:
-- don't pretend to be
anything else. They --
this music is their life's
experience, and this music
is their entire culture.
It's not like second-grade
experience. It's
first-hand experience. And
it's sexy music, and it's
fun. The lyrics are
incredibly -- how do you
call it, if they have two
different meanings?
RC:
Yeah, full of -- full of
layers of meaning and
interpretation, and as we
sometimes say, double
entendres and triple
entendres. So it's
complicated. It's -- but
it's very eloquent. I
mean, they -- it's true,
their experience is all
through this -- this kind
of music, and very well
done. I mean, truly,
that's -- the truth is,
these are just great
musicians, you know? Just
absolutely fabulous.
CR:
But it makes you think
"what a loss'' for
them, but also for the
people of Cuba and people
around the world who love
music, they haven't been
singing.
RC:
That's right.
WW:
But what a gain that it
has been preserved. I
mean, Ry just caught them
in the nick of time.
CR:
Yeah.
WW:
And we were just--
CR:
Well, they're 70 and 80
and 90 years old.
RC:
That's right.
WW:
Yeah, up to 94 now. And I
mean, Ry just went there
just at the last second.
And also, I feel, with our
cameras, when we came for
the second
[unintelligible], we just
came there in time. And
the film just caught them
at this incredible moment
in their lives, when they
went from shining shoes to
becoming stars in concert
halls all over the world.
CR:
No politics in this film?
RC:
Well, this is about music
for me, and people, and
so, hopefully, we can say
that the politics --
everything in Cuba -- it's
a very political place,
obviously, I mean, the in
the international sense,
you see. So everything is
somehow political in this
[unintelligible] I guess
you could say --
CR:
But you're not trying to
make a political message
film.
RC:
No! I mean, we're trying
to tell a human story. I
mean, it sounds like a
cliché?, but it's totally
true. And like Wim says,
these are people with such
a rich individuality and
-- and to shine the light
on them is enough, you
know?
WW:
Telling -- making the film
explicitly political would
have belittled, I think,
the subject. And also, I
felt we wanted to make a
film that could be seen
worldwide, also in the
U.S., also in Cuba, which
is the case. And I think
the film not being about
politics but about music
-- and the music speaks
for itself. I think it
put, in a strange way,
Cuba more on the map than
if you had made a
political movie.
CR:
You guys hear from Castro
or anybody like that?
RC:
No, not a peep.
WW:
Didn't get
[unintelligible]
CR:
You brought the musicians,
I guess, because of
Carnegie Hall performance
-- you brought them to New
York.
RC:
Right.
CR:
How was that for them?
RC:
Well, I think it was
fantastic. While we were
together and during the
making of the film, they
would often say, "Are
we ever going to go to
Carnegie Hall? When are we
going there?'' Because
they know. Everybody knows
Carnegie Hall.
CR:
Yeah.
RC:
And it's a mecca, and it's
a destination, in your
mind, anyway. So it
finally happened. And this
was a miracle all by
itself. To get every one
of these people actually
to the stage in Carnegie
Hall was a tremendous job
of work. A lot of people
really struggled to do
this.
CR:
We've got two scenes from
your film. First is the
simple visiting of New
York City, as they are in
awe of the skyline. Here
it is.
[excerpt from Buena
Vista Social Club]
CR:
They sell everything here!
But he didn't know Marilyn
Monroe.
WW:
They didn't know. And a
little later on, they
didn't recognize Kennedy.
That's where history
stopped for them.
CR:
History stopped in '59.
WW:
Well, yeah.
CR:
Wow.
WW:
And time is -- [crosstalk]
CR:
-- like you've never seen.
WW:
And time is still stopped.
That's also an attraction
to film in Cuba because
you're filming inside that
time warp.
CR:
Yeah.
WW:
I mean, you get there, and
very soon you realize
something. You're not in
1999 anymore.
CR:
Before we take a look at
the Carnegie Hall
performance -- you two
guys are on the same
wavelength musically and
-- and --
RC:
I'd say so, yeah.
CR:
-- esthetically and --
RC:
Sure. Well, you have to be
to do this kind of work,
you know?
CR:
Yeah. You can't -- you
can't have somebody's
score in your films, in
your case, or making your
film, in your case --
RC:
Oh, no. It wouldn't do.
WW:
We go back a long time. We
know each other from 25
years, something like
that.
CR:
Roll tape. Carnegie Hall.
Here it is.
[excerpt from Buena
Vista Social Club']
CR:
So what else now? I mean,
you -- not so much
"What are you going
to do,'' but where does
this all go? Where do
these guys go before they
--
WW:
They're touring like --
CR:
-- breathe their last?
WW:
-- there is no tomorrow.
CR:
Is that right?
WW:
Yeah. There's at least
four different
combinations out of them
now. Compay Segundo, the
oldest -- he's playing
with his sons. He has a
band. Ruben, the piano
player, and Ibrahim and
Omara, who you just saw,
they have a big band
together. They're going to
be in America.
RC:
They're coming here, yeah.
CR:
That'll be big.
RC:
Oh, yes. Big horn section.
It's going to be big. Oh!
WW:
They're touring for the
last two years --
RC:
Straight.
WW:
-- without stop.
CR:
It's a great, great story.
Congratulations.
RC:
It's a great story. Thank
you.
WW:
Thank you.
CR:
Thank you both.