Tutu and Franklin: The Present (continue)
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: And, and so the, the, the other thing that I, I, I thought I, I wanted to say, which is not very comforting to you, is that in our new dispensation, any of that kind of discrimination that you are talking about, where accommodation is available, it's advertised, a black couple goes and they are told no, and a white couple goes and they are told, oh, it's available, that is totally, totally outlawed, and we, we now have legislation that ensures that the rights enshrined in our constitution are becoming actualized for people. At work, it's the same.
DR. FRANKLIN: That's--it--we have laws against--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: Well, the point is that we've got so many people in the United States who, who believe that they've done enough, who believe that this refer--reverse discrimination, as they call it, is unjust, and they are attempting, now, to roll back--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --the, the executive orders and the legislation that would--that did propose to create a kind of com--a level playing field.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes; yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: So that you've got anti-affirmative action laws--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: --which apply not merely to education, where they were trying to catch up with that disparity that you mentioned in South Africa. It's the same as in the United States where they spend a dollar on education of a black child and five dollars on the education of a white child.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: We've, we've sought to make am--make amends for that through legislation, and through affirmative action practices, but the reaction to that--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: --is enormous, now, so that you've got reaction not merely at the university and college level. You've got it also, now, in the primary and secondary school levels, where there is opposition to doing anything that would give minority children equal opportunity.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: So that the, the resistance is strong, and it's, it's strong in, in--in employment, too, where we now have subtle ways of, of rejecting minority candidates for employment and that opportunity is passed on to, to whites.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes. What I thought we--I would like to say as, as my closing, or of this particular part of our conversation, is really a plea, a plea to the privileged, a plea to white people to hear the cry that comes from the hearts of so many of the fellow citizens, black citizens.
That just as we used to say to them, they would really never be free until black people were free in South Africa, and now they're experiencing it. Now, they are participating in international sport, which they were not able to do in the days of apartheid. Now, they can travel to all sorts of countries. They, they can enjoy exchanges, cultural exchanges with very, very many countries in the world. They are realizing that it was not a slogan. So, also, a new dispensation, a more equitable dispensation is ultimately in their best interests. That true reconciliation will not happen, certainly not in South Africa, unless transformation takes place, unless the person who lives in a shack, who, who lives somewhere where they don't have running water or electricity.
Unless those people actually see that freedom means being able to get a decent home, to have a good job, to, to be able to take your children to a good school, to have access to adequate health care. But unless those things happen, then we jeopardize reconciliation. Those people will say to hell with Mandela, and all his reconciliation. To hell with Tutu, talking about the Rainbow People, when it's four years, now. I lived in a shack before the election four years ago. It's four years now after democracy and I still live in a shack.
That stability will require that the material condition of the poor is changed, is alleviated.
DR. FRANKLIN: Yes. Not only in the material conditions, and that's the same--the same thing is true in the United States. The disparity between the rich and poor is, is unbelievable. But not only must we have some equity there. We must have some equity in the way in which people treat each other.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Absolutely. Absolutely.
DR. FRANKLIN: And on a day to day basis.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Absolutely.
DR. FRANKLIN: And their regard for the, for the human equation, the human character of a fellow human being, and we don't seem to be able to arise to that--rise to that point. It would be--it would be wonderful, as we look to the future, if we could say that despite--in the United States--despite the fact that the minorities have been in the minority for X number of years, for many centuries, that--that those who are in the majority ought to see the advantage--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Absolutely.
DR. FRANKLIN: --of equity, of decent treatment. And the point is that, demographically, the minorities today constitute a real threat, numerically, for in the foreseeable future they will be in the majority.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes; yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: The darker peoples have never been in the majority in the United States, but by 2025, or so, they will be in the majority. I would hope that the people who are now in the majority would find it in their best interests--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes; yes.
