Closing arguments made in sexual assault civil case against Trump

Geoff Bennett:

The civil case E. Jean Carroll has brought against former President Donald Trump is now in the hands of the jury.

Lisa Desjardins has the details on what comes next.

Lisa Desjardins:

After two weeks in court, with testimony from Carroll and a handful of witnesses, lawyers for both sides prison entered closing arguments today, as jurors weigh whether or not to hold former President Trump liable for sexual assault and defamation.

Carroll, a former columnist, has accused the president of raping her two decades ago.

In the courtroom today was Andrea Bernstein, a reporter with ProPublica, who also covers Trump legal matters for NPR.

Andrea, can you sum up the closing arguments we heard today?

Andrea Bernstein, ProPublica:

Yes, so the plaintiff's lawyers stressed that 11 witnesses testified that Donald Trump sometime in the 1990s forcibly raped the columnist E. Jean Carroll in the lingerie dressing room at a Bergdorf Goodman and that, immediately after — she was able to struggle and get away, according to her account — called a friend who, the friend recalled in testimony, she had called while she was feeding her kids dinner.

And then there were a number of other witnesses who corroborated parts of E. Jean Carroll's account. So her lawyers argued, well, in order to not find Trump liable — it's a civil case — the jury would have to disbelieve all 11 witnesses, and also just believe Donald Trump, when, from the infamous "Access Hollywood" tape, he talked about grabbing women by the genitals and, when you're a star, they let you do it.

Trump didn't testify. And his own lawyer said the jurors shouldn't conclude anything from that. They pointed out what they saw as the number of inconsistencies in E. Jean Carroll's story, and suggested that the incident never happened and that, in fact, E. Jean Carroll and the woman who corroborated her account in fact concocted it in order to hurt Donald Trump.

Lisa Desjardins:

As evidence, E. Jean Carroll has presented, as you say, these witnesses, women that she said she talked to the time and also women they say fall into a pattern of sexual assault from the former president.

But, of course, his attorneys, as you say, deny this, say this is all concocted, that it's political. The president — former president did not appear in court, but we did see some from his deposition, including he was asked, interestingly, by the attorneys for Carroll at one point to look at an archival photo of a time when he and E. Jean Carroll were at the same party.

And I want to play what happened when he, by mistake, didn't recognize his ex-wife, Marla Maples.

Donald Trump, Former President of the United States: I don't even know who the woman — let's see. I don't know who — it's Marla.

Roberta Kaplan, Attorney For E. Jean Carroll:

You're saying Marla's in this photo?

Donald Trump:

That's Marla, yeah. That's, that's my wife.

Roberta Kaplan:

Which woman are you pointing to?

Donald Trump:

Here.

ALINA HABBA, Attorney For Donald Trump:

No, that's Carroll.

(CROSSTALK)

Donald Trump:

Oh, I see.

Roberta Kaplan:

The person you just pointed to is E. Jean Carroll.

Lisa Desjardins:

Later, he defended himself against Carroll and her attorney.

Donald Trump:

She's accusing me — and so are you — of rape, and it never took place. And I will tell you, I made that statement. And I said, well, it's politically incorrect. She's not my type. And that's 100 percent true. She's not my type.

Lisa Desjardins:

Andrea, obviously, we're in unprecedented waters here.

But I'm curious. How do you think that deposition affected the final arguments today?

Andrea Bernstein:

Well, it came up several times, as you could imagine.

And E. Jean Carroll's argued — lawyers argued that, in fact, E. Jean Carroll was exactly his type, so much his type that he confused her from a photo at that time for his second wife, Marla Maples. The fact that Trump didn't testify, counselors circled back to at the very end of the trial, and they said he never came here to tell you, the jury, that he did not do this.

And they also argued, referring again to this "Access Hollywood" tape, that Trump had boasted in that tape that he did have a type and that, when you're a star, you let them do it. Trump's lawyers, as had Trump, called that locker room talk. But Carroll's lawyer said, no, we call it something else. We call it a confession.

Lisa Desjardins:

You mentioned the jury here. It's six men and three women. They have to consider whether there's a preponderance of evidence here to support E. Jean Carroll's case.

What does that mean? And have you noticed anything about the jury while watching them in court?

Andrea Bernstein:

Right.

So the jury was fairly expressionless, as you might expect, but they did seem to be attending carefully. And both — Trump's lawyer Joe Tacopina made a very impassioned closing statement, pointing out what he saw as inconsistencies in E. Jean Carroll's story.

And at the very end of the day, the jury watched closely Carroll's lawyers on their rebuttal, where he was explaining various pieces of testimony that he said Joe Tacopina, Trump's lawyers, had taken out of context.

So they did seem to be attentively listening. They don't have to find beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not a criminal trial. There will be no finding of guilt or innocence. But if they do find that the preponderance of the evidence suggests that Trump did this and find him criminally liable, this will be the first time that a jury of Trump's peers have ruled, if you will, on what these accusers have been saying since Donald Trump's first campaign for president in 2016, that he committed these acts.

This will be the first time it's gone to a court of law, been tested, and a jury will find something. Now, of course, they could also find that he is not liable on any of these counts. And that could come any time tomorrow after the judge instructs them, which will be first thing in the morning, and then they will have the case and will be able to deliberate.

Lisa Desjardins:

And, Andrea, in the last few seconds we have here, the potential impact here? We're talking dollar figures, I suppose?

Andrea Bernstein:

Yes, we're talking dollar figures. It could run well into the millions.

But, of course, here's the question.How do you describe the front-runner for the GOP if a jury finds him liable? That will be something the whole country will be grappling with, depending on the verdict in this case.

Lisa Desjardins:

And we all appreciate you helping us understand it all.

Andrea Bernstein of ProPublica, thank you so much.

Andrea Bernstein:

Thank you.