Oath Keepers leader testifies in his Jan. 6 sedition trial

Judy Woodruff:

The leader of the far right militia group the Oath Keepers returned to the witness stand in federal court today.

Stewart Rhodes is testifying in his own defense against seditious conspiracy charges that stem from his role in the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.

John Yang has more.

John Yang:

Judy, Rhodes testified today that he had no intention of either entering the Capitol on January 6 or disrupting the electoral vote count that day. On cross-examination, prosecutors pressed him on the Oath Keepers' reputation as an anti-government militia.

Carrie Johnson is NPR's Justice Department correspondent. She's been in the courtroom nearly every day of this trial.

Carrie, thanks for joining us.

A defendant taking the stand in his own defense allows him to present his case to the jury in his own voice, but it also allows the prosecution to question him. How did each side of that equation work for — work for Rhodes?

Carrie Johnson, NPR:

You know, Stewart Rhodes is a smart guy.

He's a Yale Law School graduate who went on to be disbarred. And he had a good amount of time to tell his story. He told this jury in Washington, D.C., that he grew up basically dirt poor, part of a migrant farm worker family out in California, and that he considers himself to be a quarter Mexican American.

He says that he supports law enforcement, that he's nonviolent, that as many as 30 percent of the members of this far right Oath Keeper group are actually current or former law enforcement officials around the country.

And Rhodes says he was not involved at all in any planning for the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol, he didn't go inside the building that day, and when he found out some people affiliated with him did, he said it was a stupid idea that allowed his political enemies to persecute him, and that's how he wound up here, sitting in this witness chair in front of a jury fighting for his legal life.

John Yang:

And what did the prosecution — did the prosecution make any dent in his story?

Carrie Johnson:

You know, the main witness against Stewart Rhodes in this trial so far has been his own words, his own text messages on this Signal, encrypted Signal app, videos and other statements he's made.

And prosecutor Kathryn Rakoczy tried to dismantle Stewart Rhodes on the witness stand using his own words. Of course, Rhodes says he was just engaged in bombast and big talk. But she showed a lot of evidence, including text messages just a few days before the assault on the Capitol, that said that: "They won't fear us until we come with rifles at hand. We need to push Trump to do his duty. And, if he doesn't, we're going to do ours," Stewart Rhodes allegedly typed.

Then she played for the jury right at the end of her cross-examination a recording that someone made of Stewart Rhodes a few days after the assault on the Capitol, where Rhodes said, basically, his only regret was that he didn't bring rifles. And then he engaged in some violent rhetoric involving Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.

So, the jury was paying really close attention, John, taking lots of notes. And I saw a couple of the jurors make faces at Stewart Rhodes as he went into kind of long-winded explanations on cross-examination. Now, of course, that doesn't mean they're going to convict him of seditious conspiracy or any other charge, but he may have turned off some members of this Washington, D.C., jury today.

John Yang:

This trial has been going on for six weeks, delayed by a lot of things.

You have been in the courtroom, I think, all but one day. What's it been like?

Carrie Johnson:

You know, there have been moments of incredibly high drama and personal turmoil.

Remember, this is about the assault on the U.S. Capitol. People died at the Capitol. Law enforcement officers took their own lives. Over 140 police and law enforcement were injured that day. And it could not be more serious.

But the introduction of a lot of these documents has at times been slow. Still, it's quite interesting to watch the jurors take in all this evidence. We did hear, John, from several people who had been affiliated with the Oath Keepers, who basically got out before January 6, 2021, because they were so worried about the rhetoric and the way this rhetoric was trending.

The idea that this jury has now heard from Stewart Rhodes himself, I think, is going to be a pivotal moment. And we're going to hear from other defense witnesses for the rest of this week too.

John Yang:

How much longer is this trial going to go on?

(LAUGHTER)

Carrie Johnson:

I wish I could offer you a prediction. I hope we're going to be done by Thanksgiving.

But with so many unexpected things, including one of the defendants getting COVID and delaying the trial, and one of the lawyers in the case having an accident on a scooter and breaking his arm, I'm leaving room for the unexpected here.

One of the jurors says they're moving out of state a few days before Thanksgiving. Let's hope we're done by then, John.

John Yang:

Carrie Johnson of NPR, thank you very much.

Carrie Johnson:

My pleasure.