Resolute Sanders on strategy, foreign policy and the outlook for the DNC

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• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Stay with us. Coming up on the "NewsHour": Mark Shields and David Brooks examine this week with its political turning point. Pianist Rob Kapilow breaks down a famous piece by Johannes Brahms just in time to celebrate the late composer's birthday.

  But first, we turn our focus to the fight to win the Democratic nomination for president. Even as the delegate math favors Hillary Clinton to become the party's nominee in November, Bernie Sanders is still working hard to defeat her. I spoke with the Vermont senator this afternoon.

  (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Senator Sanders, welcome to the "NewsHour".

  Let me start with a question about something that's happened in West Virginia, a state you have been campaigning in. Donald trump, yesterday, received the endorsement of the West Virginia Coal Association. This is a group that represents 95 percent of the coal industry in that state. They almost always endorse Democrats.

  What does that say about the challenge that you or Secretary Clinton face this November?SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), Democratic Presidential Candidate: Well, I think that we stand a good chance to win the primary in West Virginia on Tuesday, and the reason is that we are talking to the issues that impact the people of West Virginia and, in fact, this country, and that is the fact that people are working longer hours for lower wages and almost all new income and wealth is going to the top 1 percent. That we're the only major country on earth that doesn't guarantee healthcare to all people and paid family and medical leave.

  Now in terms of coal in West Virginia, I think the scientific community has made it as clear as they can, climate change is real. It is caused by human activity. It's already doing devastating harm all over this planet. And I think we have got to transform our energy system away from fossil fuel.

  But I have introduced change legislation which puts $41 billion into rebuilding those communities all over this country that have been hurt by that transition, by making sure that if workers lose their jobs, they're going to get new jobs. They're going to get educational opportunities. They're going to get extended unemployment.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  I hear you. But when the group that represents most of the coal industry hears your message and Donald Trump's, they're saying they like Donald Trump better.

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  Well, I think at the end of the day the people of West Virginia and the people of America understand that we have a moral responsibility to leave this planet in a way that is healthy and habitable for your children and future generations.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Senator, a question about what Secretary Clinton said to "The Los Angeles Times" this week in an interview with the editorial board.

  She said, "Anytime you ask Senator Sanders a question about foreign policy," what's your plan, for example, to defeat ISIS? She said, "His response is, I voted against the Iraq war authorization," meaning Secretary Clinton.

  She went on to say, "He has never had any experience or authority to make any hard decisions." She said, "I can't tell you what he would have done in the Situation Room about bin Laden" or — she listed other crises. She said, "But a lot of what he says is problematic."

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  Yes, well, you know, she may not know what I would have done with regard to bin Laden and, obviously, what I would have done is everything we could to kill or capture him. But she does run away from this very important issue.

  Look, she was in the Senate. I was in the House in 2002. Iraq is and has been the most important foreign policy issue that this country has faced in our modern history. She heard the same evidence that I did. She voted for the war, I voted against the war.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  But —

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  She in a debate we had a couple of months ago, she said, Henry Kissinger thought I was doing a good job as secretary of state. Well, what does that tell the American people? Kissinger was the worst, most destructive secretary of states this country has had.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  But what about —

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  Secretary Clinton and I do look at foreign policy in a very different way.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  My question, though, Senator, is that she's saying that you don't have the experience making these decisions she does.

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  Yes, well, that's right, I did not have the experience to overthrow Gadhafi in Libya and then create a destabilized area there that allowed ISIS to come into.

  Look, she was secretary of state for four years, there's no argument. That is a lot of experience. I have been in the Senate for nine years. I was in the House for 16 years. I voted against the First Gulf War which I think history will conclude was the right vote.

  I believe that ISIS not only must be defeated, they must be destroyed, but they must be destroyed by Muslim troops on the ground with our support and support of other superpowers. Not with a perpetual war engaged in by the Ameri — the United States military.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Senator, different subject. You sent a letter today to the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Debbie Wasserman Schultz. You urged her in your words not to stack the committees that will draft the rules at the convention and lay out the party platform. You went on to say that if committee assignments aren't fairly allotted, you said one result could be floor fights. And you talked about being prepared — that you are prepared to mobilize your delegates to force as many votes as necessary.

  This sounds like a threat?

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  A threat? No. It's using the rules and the process of the Democratic convention, nothing threatening about it. What is the threat is that Chairwoman Wasserman Schultz is creating a process right now in terms of the selection of delegates for the major committees which are totally stacked.

  Look, as of now, we have won 45 percent of the pledged delegates. That is the real delegates that people vote for. I have the feeling that in the next nine primaries and caucuses, we're going to see that number go up, hopefully, actually, to a majority.

  So I think that our people deserve a fair shake on the important committees. We have been fighting for Medicare for all healthcare program. We're fighting to end the grotesque level of income and wealth inequality. We're fighting for free tuition of public colleges and universities. People who support me deserve fair representation on these committees.

  And what the chairwoman has done so far is really absurd. She has stacked the deck completely with the more conservative members of the Democratic Party when the people all over this country are saying, we're tired of establishment politics and establishment economics.

  So, all that that letter says is we think our people, where we are right now at 45 percent, I think that number will go higher, maybe to 50 percent, we deserve a fair shake.

  What is wrong with that proposal?

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Now, Senator, I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong. I was saying when you say the result could be floor fights, mobilizing the delegates —

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  Well —

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  — it sounds like you're saying —

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  That's part of the rules. Judy, that is what the rules are. You have the right to have minority reports. You have the right to have vigorous discussion on the issues.

  All that that letter says is treat us fairly. Don't stack the deck and give us committees that are lopsided in terms of Clinton delegates. We want a fair shake. Nothing more than that.

  If we don't get a fair shake, we will do what is natural. We will use the rules of the Democratic convention to fight for what we believe in.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  OK. Senator, you've looked very closely, of course, at this context coming up there, nine more states coming, I should say nine more primaries, four more caucuses coming up.

  What do you believe is the most number of pledged delegates you could have going into this convention?

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  Look, Judy, we are fighting an uphill battle to get a majority. For us, I think, for example, we stand a pretty good chance to win in West Virginia, maybe Kentucky and I think we're favored in Oregon. I think we have a good chance to win in California which obviously is the largest number of delegates of any state.

  If we get — and I understand this is uphill, I'm not predicting that we will, but if we do very, very well and get 65 percent of the remaining votes, we actually will have a majority of pledge delegates as I understand it. If not, maybe we'll have 47 percent, 48 percent of pledged delegates going into the convention.

  And the case that I want to make to the superdelegates, over 400 superdelegates came on board secretary Clinton's campaign well over a year ago before I even got into the race, and the case that I want to make to those parts of the Democratic establishment is what is most important is we defeat Donald Trump, that somebody like Trump never should get into the White House.

  And if you look at all of the national polls, virtually all of the statewide polls, Bernie Sanders is the stronger candidate against Donald Trump than is Hillary Clinton. And the reason for that is we are appealing not only to Democrats, we are appealing to independents as well.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Senator, final quick question — what do you say to your supporters that are telling my colleagues at the "NewsHour", other journalists, that if you don't get the nomination, they're going to vote — they're not going to vote for Hillary Clinton and they may vote for Donald Trump?

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  Well, what I will — what I am going to be doing now, Judy, in the next five weeks is fighting for every delegate that we can get. We have a narrow path to victory, but I'm going to fight to see that we can win, and then we're going to take our fight to the Democratic Caucus.

  If we do not one the nomination, we will sit down with Secretary Clinton and we'll see where we go from here.

  But it is incumbent on Secretary Clinton, who by the way, as I understand it, is now reaching out to Jeb Bush's fundraisers in order to raise money from them, you know, and that really casts a doubt on the parts of millions of Americans — are you really going to stand up for the working and middle class while you're collecting millions from Jeb Bush supporters? I mean, those are the kinds of things that I think make not only my supporters but ordinary Americans nervous.

  But the bottom line is: A, we're going to fight to win the Democratic nomination. B, we're going to make sure if we don't win that the platform at the convention is a platform that speaks to the needs of working families. C, if we do not win the nomination, we're looking forward to sitting down with Secretary Clinton and seeing where we go from there.

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  Senator Bernie Sanders, we thank you very much.

• SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

  Thank you.

  (END VIDEOTAPE)

• JUDY WOODRUFF:

  That interview from this afternoon.

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